Would Jesus allow his Church to Teach Falsehoods?

[chestertonrules]

That would be correct (that Jesus started a church). The only thing is figuring out who the church is...

I agree!

 

[chestertonrules]

~
There will always be division in the church here on earth. The question is really this:

Jesus doesn't want there to be. In the beginning, the Church was united as one. What happened? Did Jesus fail or did men rebel?

Who are you going to follow?

Jesus gave us some advice on this question:

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

 

[Yarddog]

We should evangelize in charity and good will,

Yes, I agree.

but I believe that as Catholics we should proclaim the truths of our faith.

We must be very careful in how we phrase ourselves so not to offend another Christian brother. We risk the chance of putting up an obstacle which we cannot overcome. Charity should always be our guide. Let's make sure that we break down walls and not build them.

 

[chestertonrules]

Yes, I agree.


We must be very careful in how we phrase ourselves so not to offend another Christian brother. We risk the chance of putting up an obstacle which we cannot overcome. Charity should always be our guide. Let's make sure that we break down walls and not build them.

Do you believe starting this thread was a positive or negative step for this task?

 

[christianmomof3]

You bring up a good point, but your thread is based on a premise that doesn't take into account that God doesn't force the will. God has provided His people with everything necessary to understand His word.

A group of people, no matter what denomination, aren't His church, unless they adhere to His word. To the law and the testimony, if they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. The church of today would do well to take that to heart.

Remember too that God says that He alone will do the separating of the wheat from the tares, which must both grow together. In other words, the true and false believers will mingle together within the church until Christ retruns.

Remember the words of Christ: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Being sincere isn't an excuse. The bible clearly shows what truth is. Man's traditions have posioned the pure truth of the word of God.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

People would rather believe a lie, and for this reason, God will give them over to believe a delusion.

Do you believe that Jesus started a Church?

The church is the Body of Christ. It is not a religion or a man-made organization. It is a living organism characterised by having Christ as it's life and taking Christ as it's head. Members of the Body of Christ may be found within most if not all Christian religious groups and also outside of those groups.

As Stryder pointed out, there have been false teachings within the church since it began. This is because Satan still exists. The gates of hell will not prevail against the church means that the church will never be destroyed by Satan. But he has sown tares in among the wheat and those tares have shared many false teachings. This problem will not be resolved until the Lord returns.

The teachings that you personally and that your particular religion deem to be false may or may not be false and the teachings that your religion thinks are correct also may or may not be correct.
I believe that the teachings that I follow, which are found in the Bible, are correct. But I am open to correction from the Lord.

 

[chestertonrules]

The teachings that you personally and that your particular religion deem to be false may or may not be false and the teachings that your religion thinks are correct also may or may not be correct.
I believe that the teachings that I follow, which are found in the Bible, are correct. But I am open to correction from the Lord.

I believe that Jesus has given us a sure guide to the truth because that is what he promised.

There is no unity of Christian teaching outside of the Catholic Church.

 

[Yarddog]

Do you believe starting this thread was a positive or negative step for this task?

I fail to see how this question can be seen as positive to Protestants.

"How can protestantism be the will of Jesus if it is teaching falsehoods?"

 

[chestertonrules]

I fail to see how this question can be seen as positive to Protestants.

"How can protestantism be the will of Jesus if it is teaching falsehoods?"

I hope that it provokes thought.

I don't think protestantism is the will of Jesus. Do you?

 

[BRISH]

Jesus doesn't want there to be. In the beginning, the Church was united as one. What happened? Did Jesus fail or did men rebel?


Men rebelled either by refusal/denial or lack of understanding.


Who are you going to follow?


Jesus gave us some advice on this question:

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.


This scripture is in reference to an offended brother. Brother, meaning this is about believers.

Matthew 15-16 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, though has gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

The scripture you state talks of the next step before washing your hands of the issue with that offending brother. Just pointing out the context of the verse you posted.


Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."


This chapter is about Jesus sending out 70 disciples/witnesses. The body of Christ, in reference to that time, were the new believers. The believers followed instructions from Jesus. Jesus gave this 70 certain instructions and guidelines. The body of Christ are the believers, not a modern church. There is one set of instructions/guidelines.


John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."


Jesus gave the instruction to forgive or not to forgive to the men who were in the Holy Spirit at that moment. Basically, he did not give those instructions to just men. Those men were consumed by the Spirit. Therefore, men are not who we follow. We follow God's will and the Spirit.


Granted, my opinion is just that. It's what I see when I read these verses and I'm reading them for the first time right now. My main point is that you need to decipher for yourself, with the knowledge of the Spirit. You ask for it...the Spirit's guidance.

The body of Christ is the body of believers. The body of believers, in my opinion, are those saved and of the Holy Spirit....not technically a church. How do we know if our leaders are Spirit led? Well....that's where you check yourself. There is one Holy Spirit. It will recognize itself in another person. That's where we stay in the Word, we continually pray to stay under God's will (the Word), and we continually pray to be led by the Spirit (thats makes us part of the body).

It's very simple really.

One God.
One Will.
One Spirit.
One Body.
One Goal.


It's up to each person to look into and seek understanding on this though, for themselves.

 

[Yarddog]

I hope that it provokes thought.

I don't think protestantism is the will of Jesus. Do you?

Jesus called us to be One as he and the Father are One, but we let him down as the Church broke into factions in the first 1000 years. I don't think that that was the will of Jesus as I don't think that what occurred during the time of Martin Luther was. But, we have what we have and the CC is trying to show that we do agree on so many items of faith and many others which there is disagreement on is many times the words and definitions instead of the faith.

 

[chestertonrules]

Jesus called us to be One as he and the Father are One, but we let him down as the Church broke into factions in the first 1000 years. I don't think that that was the will of Jesus as I don't think that what occurred during the time of Martin Luther was. But, we have what we have and the CC is trying to show that we do agree on so many items of faith and many others which there is disagreement on is many times the words and definitions instead of the faith.

Well, I'm a convert and I had many misconceptions about the Catholic Church as a protestant.

I was completely unaware of the writings of the Early Fathers and disinterested in the early Church.

I think this is typical among protestants and I would like to provoke them into further study.

I don't think I've posted anything uncivil, or at least I hope I haven't.

I don't think protestantism can be reconciled with the early Church or with scripture, but unless the tough questions are posed, I don't think that a protestant would necessarily consider them.

 

[Yarddog]

Well, I'm a convert and I had many misconceptions about the Catholic Church as a protestant.

Ditto

I was completely unaware of the writings of the Early Fathers and disinterested in the early Church.

Ditto

I think this is typical among protestants and I would like to provoke them into further study.

Ditto

I don't think I've posted anything uncivil, or at least I hope I haven't.

I don't think that you have been uncivil at all. I am just concerned when something is posted which may be taken wrong and we don't get the message across.

I don't think protestantism can be reconciled with the early Church or with scripture, but unless the tough questions are posed, I don't think that a protestant would necessarily consider them.

Happy hunting.

God Bless

 

[Hentenza]

Well, I'm a convert and I had many misconceptions about the Catholic Church as a protestant.

Well, I am a convert and I had many misconceptions of the Baptist church as a Catholic.

I was completely unaware of the writings of the Early Fathers and disinterested in the early Church.

I'm not. I have always read the ECFs but them found out that they are not infallible.

I think this is typical among protestants and I would like to provoke them into further study.

I think is typical of Roman Catholics and I would like to provoke them into further study.

I don't think protestantism can be reconciled with the early Church or with scripture,

I think that the Catholic church can not be reconciled with the early church or with scripture.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

quote Yarddog:

Originally Posted by chestertonrules

Well, I'm a convert and I had many misconceptions about the Catholic Church as a protestant.
​

Ditto

Originally Posted by chestertonrules

I was completely unaware of the writings of the Early Fathers and disinterested in the early Church.
​

Ditto

Originally Posted by chestertonrules

I think this is typical among protestants and I would like to provoke them into further study.
​

Ditto

Originally Posted by chestertonrules

I don't think I've posted anything uncivil, or at least I hope I haven't.
​

I don't think that you have been uncivil at all. I am just concerned when something is posted which may be taken wrong and we don't get the message across.

Originally Posted by chestertonrules

I don't think protestantism can be reconciled with the early Church or with scripture, but unless the tough questions are posed, I don't think that a protestant would necessarily consider them.
​

Happy hunting.

God Bless

quote:Hentenza

Originally Posted by chestertonrules

Well, I'm a convert and I had many misconceptions about the Catholic Church as a protestant.
​

Well, I am a convert and I had many misconceptions of the Baptist church as a Catholic.

I was completely unaware of the writings of the Early Fathers and disinterested in the early Church.
​

I'm not. I have always read the ECFs but them found out that they are not infallible.

I think this is typical among protestants and I would like to provoke them into further study.
​

I think is typical of Roman Catholics and I would like to provoke them into further study.

I don't think protestantism can be reconciled with the early Church or with scripture,
​

I think that the Catholic church can not be reconciled with the early church or with scripture.

One of the greatest exchanges I have seen yet!

 

[Yarddog]

Well, I am a convert and I had many misconceptions of the Baptist church as a Catholic.

I would have to agree with that. As Christians we need to look at all sides and understand what each are really saying before trying to debate.

I left the Baptist Church, as a young teen because of a minister and not because of Baptist. After learning what was really taught by the CC, I saw where many misconceptions came from. In talking with Catholics, I could also see their lack of understanding about Baptists.

I'm not. I have always read the ECFs but them found out that they are not infallible.

No one teaches that they are infallible but they are a great source of understanding the early Church.

I think that the Catholic church can not be reconciled with the early church or with scripture.

I would disagree but I also disagree that Protestants couldn't as well. I have always been taught to look for the presence of God within people instead of looking at what they call their Church. When God gives his Holy Spirit to a person, they are reconciled with God and we need to understand that and welcome all people that share that Spirit as brothers and sisters.

What is it that we truly see when we look at each other?
Luke 11
33 "No one who lights a lamp hides it away or places it (under a bushel basket), but on a lampstand so that those who enter might see the light. 34 The lamp of the body is your eye. When your eye is sound, then your whole body is filled with light, but when it is bad, then your body is in darkness. 35 Take care, then, that the light in you not become darkness. 36 If your whole body is full of light, and no part of it is in darkness, then it will be as full of light as a lamp illuminating you with its brightness."

 

[chestertonrules]

Well, I am a convert and I had many misconceptions of the Baptist church as a Catholic.

I'm not. I have always read the ECFs but them found out that they are not infallible.

I think is typical of Roman Catholics and I would like to provoke them into further study.


I think that the Catholic church can not be reconciled with the early church or with scripture.

Fair enough, but we've been through this before and you haven't been able to provide evidence to support your positions.

 

[Hentenza]

Fair enough, but we've been through this before and you haven't been able to provide evidence to support your positions.

Neither have you.

 

[chestertonrules]

Neither have you.

Not accurate.

I can provide multiple quotes from the early Church that confirm Catholic(or Orthodox) practices and belief.

You can't provide any evidence of beliefs or practices that are uniquely protestant.

Would you like me to get some quotes for you?

 

[Hentenza]

Not accurate.

I can provide multiple quotes from the early Church that confirm Catholic(or Orthodox) practices and belief.

You can't provide any evidence of beliefs or practices that are uniquely protestant.

Would you like me to get some quotes for you?

IIRC, the last time we did this I ended up exposing the quote mining. Not productive at all.

 

[Standing Up]

Not accurate.

I can provide multiple quotes from the early Church that confirm Catholic(or Orthodox) practices and belief.

You can't provide any evidence of beliefs or practices that are uniquely protestant.

Would you like me to get some quotes for you?

What are two or three examples of "uniquely protestant" practice or belief?