Praying TO Saints

[Dorothea]

By your signature in your profile, I see that this saint does not realize that without faith it is impossible to please God.

On the contrary, St. Silouan was nearer to Christ than any of us here. This is why he able to speak such profound and wisdom-filled declarations. Those around him when he was alive could see the light of God permeating from him. I got the impression that you did not understand what St. Silouan was saying? Sometimes it's hard for many of us who are not at the spiritual level St. Silouan was at to understand him.

If most of your churches were not so lukewarm, the enemy might come against you. Seems that the stagnant church overcomes the enemy by laying down and going to sleep.

Could you tell me how you came about to believe that we are a lukewarm church? If we were lukewarm and watered down, we wouldn't have survived nearly 2000 years.

If you rise up you will find opposition from the enemy then you will understand that you must have faith, prayer, the armor of God, the blood of the Lamb, your testimony, and hate your own lives to the death, in order to overcome the enemy. These are examples of the body of Christ that the gates of hell cannot prevail against. The devil and his demons will not waste their time on those who are not advancing. If you are advancing, then you will agree. If we are attacked, it is because we are doing something dangerous to the kingdom of darkness. I do not know about you all, but I am anointed, appointed, and approved. I am anointed, dangerous, and a mighty voice for God. All of you can be too. If we are not doing His will, His purpose, why would He anoint us. We would have nothing to do with that anointing, and without His anointing, we cannot carry on a great purpose. Dorothea, I have typed in here before, you may have missed. I really do not need that anyone teach me, but the anointing teaches me all things I need to know. I do not need to waste my time and energy on learning your traditions and your dead works. You have been on the border of insulting me, and you do not even know who or what you deal with. I love you though, and if I become your enemy because I tell you the truth..then, amen. So be it. I do have alot of questions. It seems that that is all this really brings up and that is a weariness to the flesh. Be blessed.

I'm sorry if I offended you or insulted you. It certainly wasn't my intent. What I see here is you and I not fully understanding where each of us is coming from. From what I've read about your saying you don't need tow waste your time and energy learning my "traditions" and "dead works," does show a lack of understanding my faith and my Church for that matter. Rejecting to learn of the True Church is your choice. One can only move so far in their journey without learning the foundation and background for where Christians first came from.

 

[Anglian]

Dear Dorothea,

You raise interesting points.

As you say, the notion that our Churches are lukewarm is an interesting one; one does not survive centuries of Muslim domination in that manner. Perhaps our friend kenblaster has a reason for thus labelling us; I should hate to think this was a hasty generalisation; if he would share his reasons with us it would be helpful. The idea that the Great Enemy has not come against us must, I fear, be the product of a want of knowledge.

Our languages are, of course, quite different, and it is more our way to say that we are the chief of sinners than to exult that we are 'dangerous'; our God does not despise a broken and a contrite heart; how He might react to claims that one is a mighty warrior in His cause we cannot say. Those who claim to be anointed may, indeed, be anointed of God, but we have only their testimony it is so; the reasons we should believe it remain obscure.

Our God counsels love, and love we have, even for those who know little, or anything, of our Churches but tell us how it is. It is as the Lord wills, and those who know better than He are welcome to such a view. I am sure you were not being insulting to kenblaster, and sure he was not meaning to be so to you.

Sometimes, when we come from different traditions, misunderstandings are easy; let us study to show ourselves approved - and that means studying what our fellow Christians really hold - not settling for what we may think they do.

peace,

Anglian

 

[kenblaster5000]

Rejecting to learn of the True Church is your choice.

Yes it is my choice. I will reject your true church and we will see where it gets me. Thank you for at least laying down the tracks, but now it is time for the locomotive to move. The power of the Holy Spirit. Why would I go backwards to your past, as is retreating, when I am talking about advancing. Dorothea, I say you are on the boundary of insulting me, but I am stronger than that. I do care for you. It is more blessed to give than to receive. Maybe I can teach you something, but you do not add to me. I do not want to judge according to the flesh, but by the Spirit. Anytime someone says we are the one true church, flags always come up. This is a mark of a cult. I have experienced God for real. I have had Him cut open my chest and put the bible inside of me. I seek after something real and not a carbon copy of faith. I am not trying to start my own religion. I just want people to know that God is real. Why live faith of words on paper in doctrines and history, as is the history of your church, the bible is an exception, but when God puts those laws, those words on tablets of flesh it is alot different. I will not be cheated by your vain philosophies, as is written in the bible, but be renewed by the Spirit and the word of God. I do not know about these writers of the past, and why you are enomored by them, nor if they were closer to God than me or not. I have no interest in them. The word says that comparing ourselves to others is not wise. That can be hard at times. And we are all equal members of each other, but I do not see how we are members of each other, since how can two walk together unless they are agreed. Be blessed, Dorothea, and forgive me for going balistic. Sometimes you just need to show people what you are about, so at least they can size you up. I like to see where people stand, so that I know where they are in spiritual development. But live does not come just from written words. It is when the pages of the bible come alive and jump up and go into your heart that gives life to us, that quickens us. Not hours of study, but an all of the sudden surge of revelation that wastes no time, because God does not do things our way and His thoughts are not our thoughts. Yes, I have alot to give, but if you do not receive the righteous as being righteous how are you to get a righteous man's reward. My righteousness is not of me, but it is from the blood of Christ. Not by trampling upon it and putting the Lord to open shame, but having our garments dipped in the blood so that we have white garments to wear.
Revelation 3:18-20
18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
20 Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and dine with him, and he with Me.

Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."

We must hear His voice, open the door, and behold, the door is open and He says "COME UP HERE." Not your tradition, not your so-called one true church, but open the door, dine with Me, come up here. Maybe He isn't calling to every one, but He calls to me. I must become less of me, so that He may be greater in me.

Be blessed.

 

[Dorothea]

Yes it is my choice. I will reject your true church and we will see where it gets me. Thank you for at least laying down the tracks, but now it is time for the locomotive to move. The power of the Holy Spirit. Why would I go backwards to your past, as is retreating, when I am talking about advancing. Dorothea, I say you are on the boundary of insulting me, but I am stronger than that. I do care for you. It is more blessed to give than to receive. Maybe I can teach you something, but you do not add to me. I do not want to judge according to the flesh, but by the Spirit. Anytime someone says we are the one true church, flags always come up. This is a mark of a cult. I have experienced God for real. I have had Him cut open my chest and put the bible inside of me. I seek after something real and not a carbon copy of faith. I am not trying to start my own religion. I just want people to know that God is real. Why live faith of words on paper in doctrines and history, as is the history of your church, the bible is an exception, but when God puts those laws, those words on tablets of flesh it is alot different. I will not be cheated by your vain philosophies, as is written in the bible, but be renewed by the Spirit and the word of God. I do not know about these writers of the past, and why you are enomored by them, nor if they were closer to God than me or not. I have no interest in them. The word says that comparing ourselves to others is not wise. That can be hard at times. And we are all equal members of each other, but I do not see how we are members of each other, since how can two walk together unless they are agreed. Be blessed, Dorothea, and forgive me for going balistic. Sometimes you just need to show people what you are about, so at least they can size you up. I like to see where people stand, so that I know where they are in spiritual development. But live does not come just from written words. It is when the pages of the bible come alive and jump up and go into your heart that gives life to us, that quickens us. Not hours of study, but an all of the sudden surge of revelation that wastes no time, because God does not do things our way and His thoughts are not our thoughts. Yes, I have alot to give, but if you do not receive the righteous as being righteous how are you to get a righteous man's reward. My righteousness is not of me, but it is from the blood of Christ. Not by trampling upon it and putting the Lord to open shame, but having our garments dipped in the blood so that we have white garments to wear.
Revelation 3:18-20
18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.
20 Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him, and dine with him, and he with Me.

Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."

We must hear His voice, open the door, and behold, the door is open and He says "COME UP HERE." Not your tradition, not your so-called one true church, but open the door, dine with Me, come up here. Maybe He isn't calling to every one, but He calls to me. I must become less of me, so that He may be greater in me.

Be blessed.

God bless.

 

[Anglian]

Dear kenblaster,

Hello there

I am curious as to why you should imagine that the Orthodox Church is not under constant assault by Satan? Even more curious to know what your grounds are to say that our faith is lukewarm? These seem, and forgive me if I am wrong, rather like generalisations; if they are based on experience, do share it with us,

You say you know nothing of other Christians in the past and have no interest in them; why? Surely other Christians have something to teach all of us? They, in their time, were guided by the Spirit, and we can learn from them how they, in their time, dealt with the wiles of the Great Enemy.

You receive the Lord's commission as you do; but you are neither the first, the last, nor even the only one. All are one in Christ - as He Himself told us. I am glad, and rejoice, in your faith; but perhaps you might learn to understand that others also follow the same Risen Christ? I rejoice in your witness; but hope you will learn to rejoice in that of others.

peace,

Anglian

 

[kenblaster5000]

Our languages are, of course, quite different, and it is more our way to say that we are the chief of sinners than to exult that we are 'dangerous'; our God does not despise a broken and a contrite heart; how He might react to claims that one is a mighty warrior in His cause we cannot say. Those who claim to be anointed may, indeed, be anointed of God, but we have only their testimony it is so; the reasons we should believe it remain obscure.

Our God counsels love, and love we have, even for those who know little, or anything, of our Churches but tell us how it is.[/quote]

Good words.

Isaiah 61

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me.....so on and so forth.
As we follow the Lord in this manner then we can say under Him.....
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives...and so forth.
Jesus said that He goes to the Father and that we will do greater things than Him, in His name. Keywords, in His name.
Jesus also read this before the pharisees in the New Testament. And we are to read it in front of others.
If we are to be anything like the Lord, we sometimes will make bold statements like He does. He said that He was sent by the Father and this was not enough to alot of the religious authorities of the time. I do not think that the situation is much different nowadays for those who are called, chosen, and faithful children of God. But, does it really matter what others think?
Paul said he did not confer with flesh and blood when he was called, otherwise people might talk him out of it. We are not commended by man but commended and confirmed by God Himself. That is bold claim, but to me it is true. Many are called but few are chosen.

 

[Dorothea]

Dear Dorothea,

You raise interesting points.

As you say, the notion that our Churches are lukewarm is an interesting one; one does not survive centuries of Muslim domination in that manner. Perhaps our friend kenblaster has a reason for thus labelling us; I should hate to think this was a hasty generalisation; if he would share his reasons with us it would be helpful. The idea that the Great Enemy has not come against us must, I fear, be the product of a want of knowledge.

Our languages are, of course, quite different, and it is more our way to say that we are the chief of sinners than to exult that we are 'dangerous'; our God does not despise a broken and a contrite heart; how He might react to claims that one is a mighty warrior in His cause we cannot say. Those who claim to be anointed may, indeed, be anointed of God, but we have only their testimony it is so; the reasons we should believe it remain obscure.

Our God counsels love, and love we have, even for those who know little, or anything, of our Churches but tell us how it is. It is as the Lord wills, and those who know better than He are welcome to such a view. I am sure you were not being insulting to kenblaster, and sure he was not meaning to be so to you.

Sometimes, when we come from different traditions, misunderstandings are easy; let us study to show ourselves approved - and that means studying what our fellow Christians really hold - not settling for what we may think they do.

peace,

Anglian

Thank you, my brother.

 

[Christos Anesti]

If these churches stem from that time of pentecost, why did they not keep the fire of the tongues burning and especially the spiritual gifts. And please do not tell me that all things have come to perfection and that we do not need it anymore. I speak in tongues, and it is a marvelous gift.

Your assumption that the gifts of the Spirit are not operative in the Orthodox Church isn't correct. If you read Orthodox history and hagiography you will find that the gifts of prophecy, healing, speaking in tongues , etc.. all exist within the Orthodox Church. Read the lives of the Desert Fathers or more recently the Optina Elders . May name saint ( Saint Seraphim of Sarov) is another great person to look into. I believe that some Protestants may not recognize the emphasis on the Holy Spirit in the Orthodox Church because our Liturgies are more sober and we tend not to roll around on the ground laughing during the liturgy or things of that nature. If you look closer you will find that the Spirit is there however.

 

[kenblaster5000]

We are all cultivated within different soils. I am cultivated in a spirit-filled, non-denominational church, under the stewardship of anointed men and women of God who live what they preach. Others are not cultivated in this fashion. An anointed person should begat anointed people. An orange tree produces oranges, and an apple tree produces apples. An unanointed branch of the body of Christ does not produce anointing. That is if they follow faithfully under a good shephard, then they can carry on with their own anointing.

Psalm 1:2-3 But his delight is in the law of the Lord, And in His law he meditates day and night. He shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, That brings forth its fruit in its season, whose leaf also shall not wither; And whatever he does shall prosper.

 

[Thekla]

Yes, God says in His word to dive in without fear of rocks or depths. I can see of the body of Christ in the seen world and some of the unseen. I have also seen the unseen side of the opposition. As is noted in the old testament a prophet prayed that a man's eyes would be opened to see that there was more on their side than the opposition. He saw into the unseen as the seer did. The body of Christ appears to the world to be divided. Those who are truly His, the wheat, the sheep, as opposed to the chaff, the goats. The former seem to be undivided. The Lord's prayer is not considered vain repetition, which is what I meant here. There is instruction in the Lord's prayer, but if we lay the same foundation of repentance in prayer, it seems to be vain if what we pray for we pick up again, as addictions. Or just a prayer we have thought up that just becomes stagnant, unmoving, lukewarm. We must always be moving and growing, otherwise we just stand still and rot like standing water. Constant movement and fervent prayer is a satisfying, sweet smell in the nostrils of God, but repetitive, vain, stagnant prayer must smell like sulfur or methane to Him. Well, be blessed.

Indeed, it is the disposition of the heart which speaks in anything we do -- in prayer as well. The goal for Christ to become our center is for the whole of our life - our entire self - to become prayer in the sense of worship of God. Our existence is to be worship. When this is the condition, then the two greatest commandments are lived - our heart filled with Christ, the heart becomes full of love for the other (neighbor).

glory to God +

 

[Philothei]

Then you can ask my grandmother a question for me, or even my mother.
They were both believers and have been dead since the 1970's. Ask my mother for her creamed onion recipe or ask Nana about the polish she used on her entryway handrail.

How odd to bring a theme like this in this thread.... I think that would be ...completely inappropriate and uncommon in asking in prayer...

 

[kenblaster5000]

How odd to bring a theme like this in this thread.... I think that would be ...completely inappropriate and uncommon in asking in prayer...

I see the wisdom and funny sarcasm in the analogy. I see the sarcasm of Elijah when He said, "Why faulter between two opinions." Maybe your God is sleeping, or using the bathroom. What this woman is saying is that her ancestors were believers, saints in the light, and she does not consult them. Why should we consult the dead, on account for the living? I certainly see the humor in it, though it may go over some heads. I am glad that you find it inappropriate, because it shows how inappropriate it is to pray to any saint. Be blessed, Philothei. And yes to everyone, I like to stir things up! It gets the waters moving and gets rid of the stagnancy. Iron sharpens iron, and so the countenance of a friend.

 

[Thekla]

I see the wisdom and funny sarcasm in the analogy. I see the sarcasm of Elijah when He said, "Why faulter between two opinions." Maybe your God is sleeping, or using the bathroom. What this woman is saying is that her ancestors were believers, saints in the light, and she does not consult them. Why should we consult the dead, on account for the living? I certainly see the humor in it, though it may go over some heads. I am glad that you find it inappropriate, because it shows how inappropriate it is to pray to any saint. Be blessed, Philothei. And yes to everyone, I like to stir things up! It gets the waters moving and gets rid of the stagnancy. Iron sharpens iron, and so the countenance of a friend.

Perhaps, but is it God-loving to be disrespectful of that which is of God ?
In this thread already, it has been said that an angel of God should "pass the salt".
Elijah was making reference to the actual reality re: Baal.


Which person posted here that we "consult the dead" ? This was not said, so instead making the statement relies on a falsehood, or a misunderstanding.

 

[bbbbbbb]

How is love for another, and doing the will of God "work" ?

How is what the saints are theoretically doing in heaven different than the race they ran here? Did they not intercede for others while they were on the earth? Did they not perform deeds of kindness and goodness for others while they were here on earth?

 

[bbbbbbb]

And true, heartfelt, tearful prayers are answered, not sarcastic ones, which only insult, not respect.

Since when is asking someone to pass the salt sarcastic and insulting? I was not insulted the last time I was asked to pass the salt. If you wish I will pass the salt, as well as the pepper, to you - and maybe the sugar if you would like it, as well.

 

[Thekla]

How is what the saints are theoretically doing in heaven different than the race they ran here? Did they not intercede for others while they were on the earth? Did they not perform deeds of kindness and goodness for others while they were here on earth?

I don't really understand what you are trying to say. Indeed, why would a Saint not do these things on earth ? But you seem to be saying that loving God and one's neighbor (the core which the acts express) is onerous, or burdensome.

 

[Thekla]

Since when is asking someone to pass the salt sarcastic and insulting? I was not insulted the last time I was asked to pass the salt. If you wish I will pass the salt, as well as the pepper, to you - and maybe the sugar if you would like it, as well.

As the angel did not answer your prayer, did you ask Christ to do so ?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Perhaps, but is it God-loving to be disrespectful of that which is of God ?
In this thread already, it has been said that an angel of God should "pass the salt".
Elijah was making reference to the actual reality re: Baal.


Which person posted here that we "consult the dead" ? This was not said, so instead making the statement relies on a falsehood, or a misunderstanding.

Please do not misquote me. I did not say that an angel of God should pass the salt. I said that I prayed and asked him to pass the salt. I did not dictate his response for him. It was not different than when I commune with saints here over a meal and ask one to pass me the salt. Out of kindness to me, they almost always do pass the salt.

 

[Thekla]

Please do not misquote me. I did not say that an angel of God should pass the salt. I said that I prayed and asked him to pass the salt. I did not dictate his response for him. It was not different than when I commune with saints here over a meal and ask one to pass me the salt. Out of kindness to me, they almost always do pass the salt.

I did not reference you because I did not quote you; "pray" means ask (as in the NT;research and a lexicon will show this), so the statement is muddy.

I did not mean to offend you, so I do apologize.

But the point is, if you feel comfortable to pray to an angel to ask for the salt to be passed, then why not pray to ask the same of Christ ?
The angel will only do the will of God.
Then, if it is your belief that prayer (I'm not sure which NT word meaning "pray/ask" you mean by prayer) is only addressed to Christ, did you see first if Christ would answer this prayer for salt ?

So, did you honestly desire with a desire born of Christ that the salt should be passed ?

 

[Thekla]

There seems to be the opinion that to ask an angel for protection is amiss.

I wonder, though, why did God place an angel at the entrance to Paradise instead of guarding it "Himself" ?

Why was it needed for Elijiah to pray to God ? Why didn't God "show up" and do this without the prayers of Elijiah ?

Why was it needed for there to be apostles ? Why didn't God do the work of the apostles "Himself" ?