Praying TO Saints

[Anglian]

Well, we seem to have established the entirely unsurprising position that those Churches with a long history - the Orthodox and the Catholic - do what the Church has always done and pray to the saints, and that some Protestants don't, don't understand why we do and that some of them seem to think it is an excuse to cast aspersions, whilst some try to understand other traditions.

peace,

Anglian

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't really understand what you are trying to say. Indeed, why would a Saint not do these things on earth ? But you seem to be saying that loving God and one's neighbor (the core which the acts express) is onerous, or burdensome.

If running the race (as per Paul's description) is onerous or burdensome, then I suppose that loving God and one's neighbor (the core of what constitutes that race, as I understand it) must also be onerous or burdensome. I do not see running the race as being onerous or burdensome in light of the joy set before us.

What I am saying is that if one's race is finished at one's passing from earth to heaven, the things which were part and parcel to that race are also finished and there is laid up for the saint a crown of righteousness which the Lord Himself will give.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As the angel did not answer your prayer, did you ask Christ to do so ?

No, but then I have not been told that my communion with Christ is the same as when He walked this earth.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There seems to be the opinion that to ask an angel for protection is amiss.

I wonder, though, why did God place an angel at the entrance to Paradise instead of guarding it "Himself" ?

Why was it needed for Elijiah to pray to God ? Why didn't God "show up" and do this without the prayers of Elijiah ?

Why was it needed for there to be apostles ? Why didn't God do the work of the apostles "Himself" ?

There are many other, very hard questions, such as -

Why did God allow the Fall to happen?

Why did God not create mankind with perfect natures that would love and adore Him?

Why did God institute the Jewish sacrificial system?

Could God not have snapped His fingers and forgiven our sin?

Why does God love us?

Back to the OP, the question posed is not whether it is amiss to ask an angel for protection, but whether is it right to pray TO a saint (versus asking a saint to intercede). This is more generic in nature and includes things such as asking St. Christopher to physically keep my car from rolling over when it slides into the ditch.

 

[Thekla]

If running the race (as per Paul's description) is onerous or burdensome, then I suppose that loving God and one's neighbor (the core of what constitutes that race, as I understand it) must also be onerous or burdensome. I do not see running the race as being onerous or burdensome in light of the joy set before us.

What I am saying is that if one's race is finished at one's passing from earth to heaven, the things which were part and parcel to that race are also finished and there is laid up for the saint a crown of righteousness which the Lord Himself will give.

The content of the race is the struggle to maintain it, to keep going. It is to continue the war against self and sin, to climb the ladder of the Beatitudes, etc. The struggle ceases at death.

Consider it this way, we are to become as Christ (Christlike). Christ intercedes for us, thus those who have become Christlike (including those who have finished the race) will do as He does -- including to intercede (pray) for us.

 

[Thekla]

There are many other, very hard questions, such as -

Why did God allow the Fall to happen?

Why did God not create mankind with perfect natures that would love and adore Him?

Why did God institute the Jewish sacrificial system?

Could God not have snapped His fingers and forgiven our sin?

Why does God love us?

Back to the OP, the question posed is not whether it is amiss to ask an angel for protection, but whether is it right to pray TO a saint (versus asking a saint to intercede). This is more generic in nature and includes things such as asking St. Christopher to physically keep my car from rolling over when it slides into the ditch.

If you ask a Saint for help, you ask one who will only do the will of God (this is not always the case with asking saints).

The history of salvation - recorded in the Scriptures - demonstrate that God does not "do everything Himself" - angels, prophets, apostles do His will. This is the "method" God employs; this method is His will. When the Macedonians desired to follow God, their prayer is heard by Paul and he goes to them. This is "God in action".

When one prays to a Saint, one is both asking for intercession and simultaneously asking for the will of God; one honors the method that God has used since the beginning of created time. Do you suppose that those with Christ (the angels and Saints) act in a manner contrary to the will of God ?

 

[kenblaster5000]

If you ask a Saint for help, you ask one who will only do the will of God (this is not always the case with asking saints).

The history of salvation - recorded in the Scriptures - demonstrate that God does not "do everything Himself" - angels, prophets, apostles do His will. This is the "method" God employs; this method is His will. When the Macedonians desired to follow God, their prayer is heard by Paul and he goes to them. This is "God in action".

When one prays to a Saint, one is both asking for intercession and simultaneously asking for the will of God; one honors the method that God has used since the beginning of created time. Do you suppose that those with Christ (the angels and Saints) act in a manner contrary to the will of God ?

Angels are ministers of the gospel of Jesus Christ and a saint is a blood-bought sinner who has his or her garments washed in the blood of Jesus Christ. I am an angel, for I preach and minister the good news of the gospel. I am a saint, because I am washed and bought by His blood. The blood of the Lamb. I am able and willing to interceed in prayer. Be blessed.

 

[MamaZ]

Because they are clothed with their heavenly home they are no longer with us and have no idea what is going on down here.. For when one Gets to the other side God wipes away all their tears and they do not struggle with us as we do in the flesh. They are at perfect peace for it is nothing but peace in the full presence of the Lord

 

[Thekla]

To love is neither struggle nor burden; living in the presence of He Who is Love, one will love as He loves. Does Christ cease to 'take an interest' in those who still struggle ? No, as many here have pointed out, He intercedes for us; He loves us. If we will become as He is - then we will do as He does.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Because they are clothed with their heavenly home they are no longer with us and have no idea what is going on down here

How do you know this?

 

[narnia59]

Because they are clothed with their heavenly home they are no longer with us and have no idea what is going on down here.. For when one Gets to the other side God wipes away all their tears and they do not struggle with us as we do in the flesh. They are at perfect peace for it is nothing but peace in the full presence of the Lord

St. Paul says that they 'surround' us. How do you surround someone if you have no idea where they are? He does not present them with their backs to us and gone ahead -- he presents them as forming a circle around us.

And do you have a scripture that says when we get to the other side God wipes away all their tears? The only one I'm familiar with is in the book of Revelation and its timeframe is associated with the beginning of the new heavens and the new earth, not now.

 

[narnia59]

How do you know this?

It's called 'tradition'.

 

[Christos Anesti]

It should be noted that the Saints in heaven are not dead and that praying to them is not "necromancy". They are alive in Christ, they surround us, and they participate in His eternal life. The way some Protestants make it sound we go have séances and communicate with the dead with Ouija boards or something.

"He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."

(Mark 12:27}

St James the Apostles tells us to pray for one another and that the prayers of a righteous man avail much. Who is more righteous than the glorified saints in heaven? Note also that he doesn't say that we should stop praying for one another just because we are in heaven.

Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much

. (James 5:16)


Angels can offer our prayers to God.

And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand. (Revelation 8:2-4)

The Saints in heaven offer our prayers to God.

“the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints”

(Revelation 5:8).

 

[narnia59]

Lest we Catholics and Orthodox are tempted to think we're the only ones who 'get it', here's a sermon from Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky:

"We are part of a communion we cannot see. We are a part of a body that is made up of all the redeemed throughout all the ages and we are even now at this moment in communion with all of them. Turn with me please to Hebrews Chapter 12. In Hebrews Chapter 12, we begin with verse 1:

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

This great cloud of witnesses is not made up of persons we can see, but it is made up of a cloud of witnesses of persons who can see us, who know us. They, though dead, yet live. Hebrews 12 follows Hebrews 11—the recitation of this great pantheon of faith. But it doesn’t end merely with the recitation that we are to run a race with the communion of saints as the host of witnesses observing, surrounding us. But rather we go to verse 18:

For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. For they could not bear the command, "IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED." And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling." But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Your heart should be stirred. The blood should be coursing just a little faster. We haven’t come like the people of the old covenant to a mountain that is shaking with fire and trembling. That is a part of our story but instead we have come to Mount Zion. By God’s grace we have come to the city of the living God. We have come to a heavenly Jerusalem. We are already there. Our citizenship is already there. We are already there by God’s grace. We are already there by faith. We have come to myriads of angels. We have come to the general assembly."

AlbertMohler.com

From the sermon: 11-11-2008, "The Apostles Creed: The Holy Catholic Church and the Communion of the Saints". This quote is about the 30-31 minute mark.

 

[prodromos]

Because they are clothed with their heavenly home they are no longer with us and have no idea what is going on down here.

We are one body, are we not?

John

 

[Livindesert]

Prodromos I am praying to you a specifc prayer request to pray to God for me. BTW please post it so I know you got it.

If you cannot post it then I know I cannot route prayers through living Christians.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Livingdesert,

I'm not seeing how the fact that prodromos may not hear your prayer would prove that those in heaven can not hear your prayer? If you want to believe that it's fine but to pretend that know for a fact that they can't hear you based on the results of such a test is kind of a stretch wouldn't you say? It's merely speculation on your part.

 

[Livindesert]

Livingdesert,

I'm not seeing how the fact that prodromos may not hear your prayer would prove that those in heaven can not hear your prayer? If you want to believe that it's fine but to pretend that know for a fact that they can't hear you based on the results of such a test is kind of a stretch wouldn't you say? It's merely speculation on your part.

On this forum the main thing asked is "would you ask your(insert live person here) to pray for you" which is then followed up with "Believers in Christ don't die they are alive".

So this along with my question tells me two things people can pray for you. But prayer is not a phone line to the afterlife but to God

The Bible states in some places that the saints pray for us, but it is thier own prayers for others not asked prayers from us.


So the conclusions I personally draw are that you can ask a living person to pray for you but if the person is not on the material plane since the new body and new earth are not yet made, we cannot contact them but we can contact God. Now If I were to ask God for protection and God sent Micheal the Angel, or Abraham then that would be awesome but I would not pray to such beings directly as I try to pray only to God.

 

[Thekla]

Prodromos I am praying to you a specifc prayer request to pray to God for me. BTW please post it so I know you got it.

If you cannot post it then I know I cannot route prayers through living Christians.

Hmmm ... again, this seems like a parlor trick request;
if God does not answer a specific request you make, do you conclude that God does not exist ?
Further, are all Christians "in the race" at an equal level of spiritual maturity ?
James makes the distinction re: the prayer of the righteous.
How does your 'experiment' consider the Saints vs. saints ?

 

[Philothei]

Prodromos I am praying to you a specifc prayer request to pray to God for me. BTW please post it so I know you got it.

If you cannot post it then I know I cannot route prayers through living Christians.

If you are looking for "evidence" in prayers to God please tell me when you pray for rain and it does not rain do you then doubt also your prayers to God?.....

if God does not answer a specific prayer then it means God does not hear it or He answers you in a way that HE ONLY thinks it is best??

It is the same with the saints. You pray to them they pray then to God.It is not UP TO THE SAINTS to fulfill your prayer request they are intercessors... They do pass it on to the ONE GOD since they do live with HIM in the same place.... They are "closer to Him" than you and me...

If you say to one of your kids tell mommy to give me the salt and the kid goes to his mother and says dad said to pass him the salt.... Does this means the kid passed the salt?? no the kid was the "messenger" the in between person passing on the "wish" or the "request" .....

Did you ask the mom to pass the salt???? NOPE you asked your kid to tell the person in charge...

That is how it works when we pray to the saints we know that the saints will pass the request to God we do not expect them to do the job

hope that helps...