Should Revelations be studied?

[LittleLambofJesus]

It is the reading and hearing and taking to heart the message that is most important... knowing the time is at hand.... More than ever has even the non-believers have this feeling that this world is going to be in a terrible mess soon.

When has it never been in a terrible mess

 

[brinny]

Would denaris be ok?

John 11:48 "If-ever we may be be letting Him thus, all shall be believing in Him.
And shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away/arousin <142> (5692) of Us and the Place and the Nation" [Reve 6:6]

Revelation 6:6 And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying "choinex of grain/wheat a denari and three choinex of barleys a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring". [John 11:48]

1220. denarion day-nar'-ee-on of Latin origin; a denarius (or ten asses):--pence, penny(-worth).
AV - penny 9, pence 5, pennyworth 2; 16 denarius = "containing ten"
1) A Roman silver coin in NT time. It took its name from it being equal to ten "asses", a number after 217 B.C. increased to sixteen (about 3.898 grams or .1375 oz.). It was the principal silver coin of the Roman empire. From the parable of the labourers in the vineyard, it would seem that a denarius was then the ordinary pay for a day's wages. (Mt. 20:2-13)

gotta munch on this a bit, amigo

 

[brinny]

Revelation 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Oh amen and amen!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh amen and amen!

He also repeats in Reve 22:10

Revelation 22:10 And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this, that the Time NIGH/egguV <1451> is" [Revelation 1:3]

James 5:8 be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye, that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448>(5758)

1451. eggus eng-goos' from a primary verb agcho (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of 43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time):--from , at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

 

[brinny]

He also repeats in Reve 22:10

Revelation 22:10 And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this, that the Time NIGH/egguV <1451> is" [Revelation 1:3]

James 5:8 be patient! and stand-fast! the hearts of ye, that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448>(5758)

Apparently God thought it worth repeating. Amen.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Apparently God thought it worth repeating. Amen.

That brings to mind Gene 41:32 and Jesus also repeats Reve 1:1 twice

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Genesis 41:32 "And-on to be repeated/doubled/08138 shanah of the dream unto Pharaoh twice, that being established the matter from-with the Elohiym, and making haste the Elohiym to do of it."

Revelation 1:1 An-un-covering Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to His bond-servants, which-things is binding to be becoming In Swiftness.
And He signifies commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bondservants of Him, John

Revelation 22:6 And said to me "these the Words Faithful and True. And Lord, the God of the spirits of the holy Prophets, commissions the Messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming/genesqai <1096> (5635) In Swiftness.

 

[Stryder06]

When has it never been in a terrible mess

I'd say sometime after that first week of creation and that fateful day when our first parents were exiled from paradise

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'd say sometime after that first week of creation and that fateful day when our first parents were exiled from paradise

Now our Lord, King and Savior Jesus the Christ provides a way back to that Garden/Paradise

Reve 2:7 The one having ear let hear! what the spirit is saying to the Outcalleds. To the one conquering I shall be giving to him to be eating out of the wood of the life which in *midst of the paradise/paradeisou <3857> of the God

 

[Spartan Warrior]

What do you mean he was literally shown anything? If anything He was spiritually shown theses things; spiritual is far more real than literal. One should not spiritualize the Book of Revelation you say; so what shall we do carnalize it? It is spiritual and it is symbolic these are what scripture declares and are not my words. Yes is symbolic that is declared in the first verse. I disagree about your assessment with Daniel, there are some similarities but I will not limit Revelation to the Book of Daniel.

Revelations 1:1 ​

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass (not 2000 years); and he sent and signified (signs and symbols) it by his angel (messenger) unto his servant John:​

Revelation or the unveiling of Jesus Christ; it is the most spiritual Book It is a book full of hidden spiritual symbolisms and for those who have the spiritual eyes or ears to see or hear it.


This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified”or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

The Book of Revelation is all symbolic and spiritual.

John was indeed in the Spirit, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was literally shown things that he described in a symbolic way. The words of the book are blessed are they which hear and understand. We are to understand what was written.

And one should not be mistaken, yes Revelations piggy backs off of the bible as a whole, but by in large, its symbolism is correlated to those things which Daniel saw.

One shouldn't spiritualize away the book of Revelation. It was given to us to warn and encourage. It tells us of those things which are soon to take place. But if you chalk it all up to figurative speaking then you won't be ready.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I have not read this thread but will respond to the subject question of "Should Revelations be studied?"


Yes it should, and it should be studied with the utmost care and caution and intellectual prowess with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That way, if all criteria are accomplished, dispensational eisegesis will not happen.


**can of worms opened, and I run far far away....!**

 

[visionary]

"Shortly come to pass" many think that God was speaking in earth time, when He obviously was talking in His time.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"Shortly come to pass" many think that God was speaking in earth time, when He obviously was talking in His time.

IT IS FINISHED!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7397815/#post53356163

Luke 21:7 They inquire yet of Him saying "Teacher! when? then these shall be and what the Sign whenever may be being about these to be becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738).

Reve 16:17 and the seventh Messenger pours out the bowl of him into the air and came out great Voice from the sanctuary of-the heaven from the throne saying "it has become"/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Reve 21:6]

Strong's Number G1096 matches the Greek &#947;&#8055;&#957;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953; (ginomai), which occurs 709 times in 636 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

AV &#8212; be 255, come to pass 82, be made 69, be done 63, come 52, become 47, God forbid + 3361 15, arise 13, have 5, be fulfilled 3, be married to 3, be preferred 3, not tr 14, misc 4, vr done 2

 

[visionary]

Not finished until God has irradicated sin from His Kingdom... The war is still on.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not finished until God has irradicated sin from His Kingdom... The war is still on.

According to the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation that will be after the 2 Great Battles of "Armegeddon" and "Gog/Magog". [I made a seperate thread on that]

I and some others view these as fulfilled on OC "Israel/Judah/Jerusalem" myself as I do all of Daniel and the Olivet Discourse......or else JESUS made false prophecies to the OC Judeans/Israelites as the Jews of today believe

Reve 16:16 And he together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn

Reve 20:8 And he shall be coming out to deceive the Nations, the in the four corners of the land, the Gog and the Magog, together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of which the Number as the Sand of the Sea. [Reve 16:14]

 

[Spartan Warrior]

intellectual prowess

This is so true with man's quest for knowlege to uncover the secrets of natural world; but there is nothing natural about the most spiritual book in the whole Bible.

guidance of the Holy Spirit

This is the last place religious man will look, most say the words but have no understanding of spiritual matters.

I have not read this thread but will respond to the subject question of "Should Revelations be studied?"


Yes it should, and it should be studied with the utmost care and caution and intellectual prowess with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. That way, if all criteria are accomplished, dispensational eisegesis will not happen.


**can of worms opened, and I run far far away....!**

 

[Stryder06]

What do you mean he was literally shown anything?

Exactly that. John literally saw what he saw. Now of course everything that he saw wasn't what it looked like, the four beasts for example, but he did see them. The New Jerusalem on the other hand is a real city that he actually saw.

If anything He was spiritually shown theses things; spiritual is far more real than literal.

What do you mean by this?

One should not spiritualize the Book of Revelation you say; so what shall we do carnalize it?

I'm pretty sure that I said you shouldn't spiritualize it away. I didn't say it wasn't a spiritual book.

It is spiritual and it is symbolic these are what scripture declares and are not my words. Yes is symbolic that is declared in the first verse. I disagree about your assessment with Daniel, there are some similarities but I will not limit Revelation to the Book of Daniel.

You only see some similarities between this book and Daniel? There are a ton of similarities. This of course will only be known if you study the two books, and not just read through them.

Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass (not 2000 years); and he sent and signified (signs and symbols) it by his angel (messenger) unto his servant John:​

The apostle Peter told us that with God a thousand years is like a day. Christ is always working on His time, not ours. So yes for us it has been two thousand years, but for Him it's only been about two days. So yeah, when He says soon He means it.

On that day that Christ cracks the sky, for those that aren't ready, the two thousand years won't seem to have been enough time. For those of us who are ready, we won't be like "well it's about time You showed up."

Revelation or the unveiling of Jesus Christ; it is the most spiritual Book It is a book full of hidden spiritual symbolisms and for those who have the spiritual eyes or ears to see or hear it.

The book is full of hidden symbols, but we've been given the key to unlock them. The book is meant to be understood in a most literal sense.

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified”or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

It is a very deep and awesome spiritual book. It declares to us those things which will/have actually taken place before the return of the Lord.

The Book of Revelation is all symbolic and spiritual.

I can promise you that those four beast represented four literal kingdoms. The seven plagues are seven literal scourges that will come from God. The New Jerusalem, is a real city with real golden streets.

 

[Spartan Warrior]

Romans 11:33 Hear what the inspired apostle said:

Romans 11:33 (Amp) Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unfathomable (inscrutable, unsearchable) are His judgments (His decisions)! And how untraceable (mysterious, undiscoverable) are His ways (His methods, His paths)!

Romans 11:33 (NLT) Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!

Romans 11:33 (NLT) Who can measure the wealth and wisdom and knowledge of God? Who can understand his decisions or explain what he does?

Romans 11:33 (MSG) Have you ever come on anything quite like this extravagant generosity of God, this deep, deep wisdom? It's way over our heads. We'll never figure it out.

Is there anyone around who can explain God?
Anyone smart enough to tell him what to do?
Anyone who has done him such a huge favor
that God has to ask his advice?

Everything comes from him;
Everything happens through him;
Everything ends up in him.
Always glory! Always praise!
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Romans 11:33 (NLT) Oh, how great are God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How impossible it is for us to understand his decisions and his ways!

 

[Spartan Warrior]

Stryder06,

I total disagree with your assessment, this is so typical of what is being taught in most churches today; it is as if somehow man has a gasp of spiritual things by literalize them.

You say the New Jerusalem is a real city, what does that mean.

Jerusalem today is a "real city" full of death, hate, malice, religion and the natural man and all of his evil ways; it to is a real city. God is also real how do you literalize God? There is nothing literal about God but He is real.

&#8220;He actually saw&#8221; you tell us, what does that mean?

Are you saying as he sat on Patmos a city appeared before his natural literal eyes like magic? Sorry it is far more deeper then what you are literalizing here.

The word See in the Greek means with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable. What you are saying would better fit, "NT:991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from NT:1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision".


See: Strong&#8217;s NT:3700

optanomai (op-tan'-om-ahee); a (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai (op'-tom-ahee); which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of NT:3708; to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from NT:991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from NT:1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while NT:2300, and still more emphatically its intensive NT:2334, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and NT:4648 a watching from a distance):

What is Jerusalem, what is Mount Zion when it comes to God&#8217;s Word not mans religious or natural understanding?

I want to firstpoint out:

Example: 1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong&#8217;s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)


The Book of Revelation is spiritual in meaning and its meaning is with in us by opening the hidden mysteries in God's Word so God uses the symbolic and the meaning for all spiritual things. These spiritual symbolisms represent states of being, life-styles, levels of consciousness, spheres of existence, and dimensions of life within each of us.

Let us take one of the examples in Revelation we find the HEAVEN, EARTH, and SEA. These are, of course, symbolical and prophetical terms!

The lowest realm of these three spiritual realms is the sea. In the book of Revelation there are a number of examples that are the sea: notice these examples do not come from natural understanding but from God&#8217;s Word, but better source do we have then God&#8217;s very Word to understand the deepest most spiritual book in scripture.

&#8220;And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and a third part of the sea became blood.&#8221; &#8220;I stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns.&#8221; &#8220;And the sea gave up the dead that were in it.&#8221; &#8220;Woe to the inhabiters of the sea, for the devil is come down unto you.&#8221; &#8220;And I saw a new heaven and a new earth&#8230;and there was no more sea.&#8221;

In the Bible the sea is a type of the turbulent nature and inner storms of the Adamic man. Isaiah wrote these inspired words:

Isa. 57:20-21 &#8220;The wicked are like the troubled sea,which cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked&#8221;

Jude 13 &#8220;These are raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame&#8221;

John, on the isle of Patmos, had a vision of a great harlot sitting on many waters. The angel revealed the meaning of the many waters, saying, &#8220;the waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues&#8221;(Rev. 17:15).

The natural sea is a great deep, an abyss (Gen. 1:2; 7:11; 8:2; Deut. 8:7; 33:13).

The wickedness of man, &#8220;They search out iniquities; they accomplish a diligent search: both the inward thought of every one of them, and the heart is D-E-E-P (an abyss)&#8221; (Ps. 64:6).

The beast speaks of our carnal beastly nature.

Yes Jerusalem is a real city, but like MountZion and all these symbolisms to include the pearly gates and the streets paved with gold is not literal but spiritual in nature.

Gold speaks of divine life, Jerusalem is the city where divine authority reigns, Zion is where the Ark of God sat (Tabernacle of David/Acts 15:16) where the King and his court dwells, yes these we all once natural examples where king David once lived and walked; but God is trying to show us something deep, beyond that which is natural for those singular who have ears to hear.

 

[Stryder06]

Stryder06,

I total disagree with your assessment, this is so typical of what is being taught in most churches today; it is as if somehow man has a gasp of spiritual things by literalize them.

You say the New Jerusalem is a real city, what does that mean.

Jerusalem today is a "real city" full of death, hate, malice, religion and the natural man and all of his evil ways; it to is a real city. God is also real how do you literalize God? There is nothing literal about God but He is real.

“He actually saw” you tell us, what does that mean?

Are you saying as he sat on Patmos a city appeared before his natural literal eyes like magic? Sorry it is far more deeper then what you are literalizing here.

The word See in the Greek means with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable. What you are saying would better fit, "NT:991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from NT:1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision".


See: Strong’s NT:3700

optanomai (op-tan'-om-ahee); a (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai (op'-tom-ahee); which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of NT:3708; to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from NT:991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from NT:1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while NT:2300, and still more emphatically its intensive NT:2334, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and NT:4648 a watching from a distance):

What is Jerusalem, what is Mount Zion when it comes to God’s Word not mans religious or natural understanding?

I want to firstpoint out:

Example: 1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)


The Book of Revelation is spiritual in meaning and its meaning is with in us by opening the hidden mysteries in God's Word so God uses the symbolic and the meaning for all spiritual things. These spiritual symbolisms represent states of being, life-styles, levels of consciousness, spheres of existence, and dimensions of life within each of us.

Let us take one of the examples in Revelation we find the HEAVEN, EARTH, and SEA. These are, of course, symbolical and prophetical terms!

The lowest realm of these three spiritual realms is the sea. In the book of Revelation there are a number of examples that are the sea: notice these examples do not come from natural understanding but from God’s Word, but better source do we have then God’s very Word to understand the deepest most spiritual book in scripture.

“And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and a third part of the sea became blood.” “I stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns.” “And the sea gave up the dead that were in it.” “Woe to the inhabiters of the sea, for the devil is come down unto you.” “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth…and there was no more sea.”

In the Bible the sea is a type of the turbulent nature and inner storms of the Adamic man. Isaiah wrote these inspired words:

Isa. 57:20-21 “The wicked are like the troubled sea,which cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked”

Jude 13 “These are raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame”

John, on the isle of Patmos, had a vision of a great harlot sitting on many waters. The angel revealed the meaning of the many waters, saying, “the waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues”(Rev. 17:15).

The natural sea is a great deep, an abyss (Gen. 1:2; 7:11; 8:2; Deut. 8:7; 33:13).

The wickedness of man, “They search out iniquities; they accomplish a diligent search: both the inward thought of every one of them, and the heart is D-E-E-P (an abyss)” (Ps. 64:6).

The beast speaks of our carnal beastly nature.

Yes Jerusalem is a real city, but like MountZion and all these symbolisms to include the pearly gates and the streets paved with gold is not literal but spiritual in nature.

Gold speaks of divine life, Jerusalem is the city where divine authority reigns, Zion is where the Ark of God sat (Tabernacle of David/Acts 15:16) where the King and his court dwells, yes these we all once natural examples where king David once lived and walked; but God is trying to show us something deep, beyond that which is natural for those singular who have ears to hear.

I'm sorry Spartan, but this is exactly what I mean when I say that we ought not to spiritualize away the book. There are indeed symbols representative of other things in the book. The beasts represent nations, the waters represent groups of people. But there are things that are literal as well.

John saw these things in vision. It isn't magic, it's the power of God.

You are wrong about the nature of the city. When I say that John saw the city I mean just that. When I say the New Jerusalem is real I mean just that. John saw eido the New Jerusalem. God allowed Him to see it and write about it so that he could have hope, and so that he could pass that hope on to later generations.

God is showing us something deep. But it is also something that we can understand.

 

[Spartan Warrior]

I have showed you and God's Word, using scripture; not my opinion that Revelation is symbolic and spiritual; you have not yet shown proof in scripture to back up your assumed claims it is literal; so what do you base your assumptions on?

Yes it was a dream a vision from God; but no where in this deep spiritual book can you find any mention of it as a literal in meaning. So please back up your claims with God's Word not your bias religious opinion.

If I should not spiritualize the most spiritual book in the whole Bible then you tell me how I should understand something that God’s Word declares spiritual and symbolic?

Again are you saying we perhaps should intellectualize, carnalize or perhaps believe a religious interpretation; please enlighten me with how this book should be understood?

Just because you have been shown something scriptural does not mean what you have been shown is correct there are at least five religious ways man tries to interpret this deep and awesome spiritual book of God’s divine spiritual Word. So if you are so correct please showing using the very Word of God you claim to believe in not your opinion.


1) Historically, it all happened a long time ago.
2) Present, in our now, but mostly negative, as people try to fit the events of their day into its pages, wondering if these certain happenings fulfill the judgment and doom they have been told is to come, to signify times end, though they hope they can escape from it all.
3) Futuristically, it will all happen out there some time.
4) Idealistically, poetically, using mental images from which to form your ideals and values, etc.
5) All of the above, practicing parts of each. Perhaps that is how many view it today. Some of it is viewed historically, some of it is viewed prophetically, and betimes men look to see if it verifies the time table that "the end is upon us.'' While occasionally passages are used to draw images and pictures that men apply to their day, as they interpret various points and fit them together.

The Beast:

The beast does not represent just nations it is symbol of our beastly nature; you have one, I have one Hitler had one and so did Moses Abraham and David. It is the greatest monster knows to the natural world.

Understand? Understand with what? Natural understanding? Religious understanding? Carnal understanding? Yes there is an understanding but instead of bringing God’s Word down to the realm of the sea; how about allowing him to allow his spirit with in us show us things like john saw a heavenly vision. Or do you still dwell in the realm of the sea?




Yes it

I'm sorry Spartan, but this is exactly what I mean when I say that we ought not to spiritualize away the book. There are indeed symbols representative of other things in the book. The beasts represent nations, the waters represent groups of people. But there are things that are literal as well.

John saw these things in vision. It isn't magic, it's the power of God.

You are wrong about the nature of the city. When I say that John saw the city I mean just that. When I say the New Jerusalem is real I mean just that. John saw eido the New Jerusalem. God allowed Him to see it and write about it so that he could have hope, and so that he could pass that hope on to later generations.

God is showing us something deep. But it is also something that we can understand.