My Lunar Challenge

[LifeToTheFullest!]

So if you told your child to clean his room, and an hour later you check in and find a note saying "I put all my toys away, vaccuumed the floor, folded my clothes, dusted the shelves, and made my bed, all in the last hour" but the room is filthy, would you take that written testimony as fact, and that this is some sort of embedded filth that cme about only after he left, or would you realize that whoever wrote that note was being deceitful?

It might be because it's Friday, but this made me actually lol!

"embedded filth"

 

[AV1611VET]

You claim no history is embedded and yet there is, and you always refuse to acknowledge as such.

I'm not Omphalos.

 

[Cabal]

I'm not Omphalos.

Right - you're an Omphalos in denial.

 

[The Lady Kate]

I'm not Omphalos.

So you claim.

 

[ReverendDG]

I'm not Omphalos.

if it walks like a duck,quacks like a duck..

 

[[serious]]

You draw a rather meager distinction between appearance of age and created with age. Both are essentially the same embedded age argument though.

 

[AV1611VET]

You draw a rather meager distinction between appearance of age and created with age. Both are essentially the same embedded age argument though.

A mannequin of an old man can be created in one day. The mannequin is brand new, but represents an old man; and from a distance, would appear old; and is as durable as a brand-new mannequin.

In contrast, an old man can be created ex nihilo; and although he is "brand new", he is old and feeble, and cannot endure what a younger man can.

Appearance of age is one thing --- old is another.

 

[Alunyel]

If God made Earth appear older than it was, he's a very deceitful God.

 

[Sophophile]

A mannequin of an old man can be created in one day. The mannequin is brand new, but represents an old man; and from a distance, would appear old; and is as durable as a brand-new mannequin.

In contrast, an old man can be created ex nihilo; and although he is "brand new", he is old and feeble, and cannot endure what a younger man can.

Appearance of age is one thing --- old is another.

Hi AV1611VET

Omphalos does not entail what you describe through your example.

You describe omphalos as like a new mannequin which, although appearing as an old man, is as durable as any other brand-new one. Thus, on close and detailed examination, one can discover the actual age of the mannequin as being quite young (perhaps the date of manufacture is printed on it, it would have no wear-and-tear etc).

But this is not what omphalos means.

Omphalos means that all evidence at any level of detail cannot show the true age of things:

"From any examination of a post-creation world, the world would appear to have been created in the cycle of normal processes, and would look old."

Thus, Adam would have a navel, trees would have growth rings, long-period radioactive decay would appear to have occurred, etc, in order that no matter how detailed an examination we undertake, we will be misled as to the true age of things. In other words, the concept of omphalos is pretty much identical to your concept of "embedded age".

Which is what lots of people have been saying to you all along.

In any case, whether one espouses "omphalos" or "embedded age" one is nevertheless claiming that there are events and processes in the universe that we can directly and indirectly observe, such as supernova (direct) and crater-forming impacts (indirect), that never actually occurred. Salting the universe with evidence of events that never actually occurred is inherently deceptive.

You will claim "God said when He did it, who the witnesses were ..." etc, but nowhere have you quoted the scripture where God says how He planted evidence of events that never occurred, or how He cleaned up evidence that should exist if Genesis were literal history.

With kind regards
S.

 

[Cabal]

Thus, Adam would have a navel, trees would have growth rings, long-period radioactive decay would appear to have occurred, etc, in order that no matter how detailed an examination we undertake, we will be misled as to the true age of things. In other words, the concept of omphalos is pretty much identical to your concept of "embedded age".

I don't think so - I predict a response about embedded age being "without history."

The point is, though, that....well....there IS history present.

 

[[serious]]

A mannequin of an old man can be created in one day. The mannequin is brand new, but represents an old man; and from a distance, would appear old; and is as durable as a brand-new mannequin.

In contrast, an old man can be created ex nihilo; and although he is "brand new", he is old and feeble, and cannot endure what a younger man can.

Appearance of age is one thing --- old is another.

well of course those are different. one's a manequin and the other is a person. Are you suggesting that some people believe adam and eve were made out of plastic?

This is why arguing with analogies is like fishing with a bicycle.

 

[AV1611VET]

If God made Earth appear older than it was, he's a very deceitful God.

He didn't --- but I'm sure that won't stop anyone from still saying He is deceitful.

It's not like He's never heard it before:

Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

 

[AV1611VET]

Omphalos does not entail what you describe through your example.

I was describing something that only appears old, but is in fact, brand new.

I'm not Omphalos --- I'm Embedded Age --- age without history.

Omphalos is embedded history.

 

[The Lady Kate]

I was describing something that only appears old, but is in fact, brand new.

I'm not Omphalos --- I'm Embedded Age --- age without history.

Omphalos is embedded history.

"Age with history" is a false age... and deceptive.

You'd do God less of a disservice if you just admitted you were Omphalos.

 

[AV1611VET]

You'd do God less of a disservice if you just admitted you were Omphalos.

You'd like that, wouldn't you?

Well, it's not gonna happen.

I know your frustration though --- I can't get you guys to admit you're creationists and, believe me, that is frustrating.

 

[Cabal]

I was describing something that only appears old, but is in fact, brand new.

I'm not Omphalos --- I'm Embedded Age --- age without history.

Omphalos is embedded history.

Hey look at that, right on cue.

There IS history present, though. Not everything was embedded with the same age or whatever the mechanism is - there's a pattern of events laid out in the natural history of the earth and space, that is detectable and consistent with all the known laws of science. This history is present whether or not you accept it, hence "Omphalos in denial."

And as with ERVs, inherited genetic errors etc, it's the same old story - if God DID want us to think the earth is 6000 years old, he's got a darn funny way of showing it.

 

[The Lady Kate]

You'd like that, wouldn't you?

I always appreciate honesty.

Well, it's not gonna happen.

Not surprised...It's not uncommon for vanity to overshadow faith.

I know your frustration though --- I can't get you guys to admit you're creationists and, believe me, that is frustrating.

Because the world simply refuses to change definitions of words to appease you... poor poor man.

 

[Alunyel]

He didn't --- but I'm sure that won't stop anyone from still saying He is deceitful.

It's not like He's never heard it before:

If he made the universe 6000 years ago, it's not like he was honest and made it appear 6000 years old.

Almost everything about this universe appears drastically older than 6000 years.

 

[The Lady Kate]

If he made the universe 6000 years ago, it's not like he was honest and made it appear 6000 years old.

Almost everything about this universe appears drastically older than 6000 years.

And to make everything in this universe appear more than 6000 years old... or more to the point, containing a lot more than 6000 years of history... serves no purpose except deception.

 

[Split Rock]

I know your frustration though --- I can't get you guys to admit you're creationists and, believe me, that is frustrating.

Heck, we can't even get you to admit you are a Homo sapiens!