Baptist views on feminism

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dies-l

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I am all for relationships in which there is open communication and discussion and concession, but when the head of the household makes a decision, it should be honored.

And, he better be darn sure that he is truly acting in His wife's best interests. I am convinced that God's judgment will be much more severe on the husband who abuses His word to justify his own selfishness than the wife who dares to question her husband's judgment.


Thinking Out Loud Here: (Not directed to anyone)
Whether we believe that the wife should or should not submit to the authority of the husband does not matter. What does matter is what the Bible says. If you reject one part of the Bible because it does not fit your philosophy, then why bother to go to church and why bother to call yourself a Christian because our beliefs are based solely on the Bible.

"Let God be true, but every man a liar." Romans 3:4

I never did like that saying "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Our belief (or disbelief) in what God has said doesn't make what God has said valid or invalid. The saying should be "God said it, that settles it."

For some reason, Christians traditionally have been very quick to point out the wife's duty to submit and respect her husband's authority, but very hesitant to acknowledge the husband's duty to submit and to be completely unselfish in his leadership. The point is that when a husband leads a home in a biblical fashion, then the proper order will fall into place. When a husband abuses his authority to justify selfishness (which is one thing that helped motivate traditional feminism), we should not be surprised when the wife has trouble respecting her husband's authority.
 
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Ringo84

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And, he better be darn sure that he is truly acting in His wife's best interests. I am convinced that God's judgment will be much more severe on the husband who abuses His word to justify his own selfishness than the wife who dares to question her husband's judgment.

Which is a good case for having a marriage with mutual submission instead of one-way submission (the woman does all of the submitting).
Ringo
 
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canukian

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I'm just curious what my fellow Baptists think about feminism. I'm not talking about the radical feminism of the 60's and 70's, but traditional feminism.

I was raised very conservative Southern Baptist, but I've realised as of late that I'm a bit of a feminist. A lot of the old time Baptists believe that the woman's place is in the home and actually encourage women to stay barefoot and pregnant. I do not agree with this. I also do not take to well to the idea of "submitting" to my husband. I think we should be equal and show equal respect to each other.

Those are a couple of things right off that I can think of, but I just wanted to get everyone else's opinions on this as well. Feel free to include Scripture if you like.

did you knowtice?

women are diferent.
 
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MrJG

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And, he better be darn sure that he is truly acting in His wife's best interests. I am convinced that God's judgment will be much more severe on the husband who abuses His word to justify his own selfishness than the wife who dares to question her husband's judgment.

How many times have I said it, I always say that the two should discuss it together to come up with a mutual decision. Only if they can not, should the wife submit because God has placed man as the head of the house. I know what you mean about acting in the best interests of the wife and not just in selfishness. Any man who is worth his salt will consider his wife before himself because he is commanded to by God ("even as Christ also loved the church" Eph. 5:25). This is agape love. The husband should not act selfishly, but should be willing to sacrifice of himself. Btw, the man being the head of the house will answer to God about how that home was run just like a pastor will answer for his church.

For some reason, Christians traditionally have been very quick to point out the wife's duty to submit and respect her husband's authority, but very hesitant to acknowledge the husband's duty to submit and to be completely unselfish in his leadership. The point is that when a husband leads a home in a biblical fashion, then the proper order will fall into place. When a husband abuses his authority to justify selfishness (which is one thing that helped motivate traditional feminism), we should not be surprised when the wife has trouble respecting her husband's authority.

Please show me where in the Bible it says that the man should submit to the wife. You won't find it. It says that the man should "honour" her and should "love" her, but no where will you find the Bible saying that the husband should submit. I do not deny that the husband should act unselfishly, and I proved from the Bible why he should not act selfishly. I do deny that the husband should submit to the wife. Submission and sacrifice are to very different concepts. The wife should submit, the husband should be willing to sacrifice everything.

"So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies." Ephesians 5:28
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord."
Ephesians 5:22
 
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Ringo84

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Please show me where in the Bible it says that the man should submit to the wife. You won't find it. It says that the man should "honour" her and should "love" her, but no where will you find the Bible saying that the husband should submit. I do not deny that the husband should act unselfishly, and I proved from the Bible why he should not act selfishly. I do deny that the husband should submit to the wife. Submission and sacrifice are to very different concepts. The wife should submit, the husband should be willing to sacrifice everything.


The Bible says that we are to submit to one another:

'Be subject to one another in the fear of Christ'
-- Ephesians 5:21
Ringo
 
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MrJG

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[/b][/i]

The Bible says that we are to submit to one another:

'Be subject to one another in the fear of Christ'
-- Ephesians 5:21
Ringo

Yeah, it figures you would find one :) I guess I should read more before I open my trap (or at least type). ;)

This submission is not a sharing of authority, but a man considering the wife and the wife considering the husband out of a mutual respect and love. The next verse clearly states that the wife should be in submission to the husband. The wife has not been placed in a position of authority over the husband. They wife submits to the husband not the other way around. I agree to that in a Biblical marriage there will be mutual concessions, but the wife must always remember that God has placed the husband as the head of the wife.
 
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Ringo84

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This however is not a command for the husband/wife relationship so much as it is a command for the Christian in general. It is like Paul saying "I become all things to all men..." The spirit of submission should be the Christian's temperament. The next verse clearly states that the wife should be in submission to the husband. The wife has not been placed in a position of authority over the husband. They wife submits to the husband not the other way around. I agree to that in a Biblical marriage there will be mutual concessions, but the wife must always remember that God has placed the husband as the head of the wife.

Neither should be placed in a position of authority over the other. Both husband and wife should share the authority as equals - not as though there's some sort of hierarchy.
Ringo
 
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MrJG

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Ringo - please note that after seeking some more knowledgeable Christian advice I have edited my last post.

Is there a hierarchy in the church? Yes, Christ is the head of the church. The Bible compares this to the husband/wife relationship. It is out of mutual submission that they consider each other. When there is not an agreement in a decision, the husband being the head of the wife makes the final decision. That is all I am saying. I am not saying that the husband should be some type of dictator nor should the wife be a mindless slave. I am saying that the two need to work together as one but with the husband as the head.
 
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Ringo84

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Is there a hierarchy in the church?

A marriage isn't the church but an equal partnership.

am not saying that the husband should be some type of dictator nor should the wife be a mindless slave.

No, you're not all that extreme on this issue. Still, I simply see things differently.
Ringo
 
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TimRout

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Why? Why are women the ones supposedly asked to do all of the submitting? Why can there not be mutual submission in a marriage?
Ringo
[/color][/color]
Ultimately, Ringo, the question comes down to God's authority over His creation. After all, it was He who created mankind in two genders, male and female. Additionally, it was God who determined the roles men and women should fill. While equal in value, men and women are not equal in function. Speaking broadly, God designed men to lead and women to follow. But this doesn't answer your question...why?

Ephesians 5:21-33 is perhaps one of the best known passages dealing with the relationship of husband and wife. It begins with the admonition to all Christians that we should be subject one to another. The Apostle Paul, who wrote the letter to the Ephesians under the direction of God's Holy Spirit, then goes on to provide three examples that characterize this submission.

1. Husbands and wives
2. Parents and children
3. Masters and slaves

While many in the feminist community like to use verse 21 --- "Be subject to one another in the fear of Christ" --- as justification for mutual submission where no one leads, this is to ignore the context of the passage. Take a look at the three example relationships, only start with #3 just to clarify things a bit. The slave is commanded to obey and serve his master with all diligence, while similarly the master is called to treat his slave fairly, since God doesn't play favorites based on human social distinctions. Nevertheless, the master leads and the slave follows; never the other way around. Similarly with parents and their children; the parents lead and the children obey. These are example of human relationships that manifest the truth of verse 21 --- submitting one to another.

Then look at husbands and wives. 5:22-24 makes it clear how a wife should submit to her husband. "Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord." [5:22/NASB] Notice the parallel between a woman's relationship to her husband, and her relationship to Christ.

Likewise, in verses 25 and following, we see that husbands are to love their wives just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her. When believing men and women are living out the kind of marriage God prescribes in His Word, they are saying something very important about the relationship between Christ and His bride, the church. In fact, 5:32 makes it clear that this is the very thing Paul was getting at to begin with. God engineered marriage to reflect the union of His Son to Christians.

So here's the big "WHY": Why is biblical marriage about the husband lovingly leading, and the wife humbly submitting? Because in the eternal relationship between Christ and the church, Christ leads and the church submits --- NEVER the other way around.

But I have an even bigger question for you --- one you're going to have to contend with if you're ever going to resolve this issue. There is no question as to what the Bible teaches about marriage. The only relevant question for you is ... will you submit to God's authority over your life?
 
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While equal in value, men and women are not equal in function.


I don't have the same function in life as you do, but that doesn't mean that I'm inferior to you or under your authority.

While many in the feminist community like to use verse 21 --- "Be subject to one another in the fear of Christ" --- as justification for mutual submission where no one leads, this is to ignore the context of the passage. Take a look at the three example relationships, only start with #3 just to clarify things a bit. The slave is commanded to obey and serve his master with all diligence, while similarly the master is called to treat his slave fairly, since God doesn't play favorites based on human social distinctions. Nevertheless, the master leads and the slave follows; never the other way around. Similarly with parents and their children; the parents lead and the children obey. These are example of human relationships that manifest the truth of verse 21 --- submitting one to another.


Women aren't slaves and they aren't children who are subject to their parents.


Likewise, in verses 25 and following, we see that husbands are to love their wives just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her. When believing men and women are living out the kind of marriage God prescribes in His Word, they are saying something very important about the relationship between Christ and His bride, the church. In fact, 5:32 makes it clear that this is the very thing Paul was getting at to begin with. God engineered marriage to reflect the union of His Son to Christians.

So here's the big "WHY": Why is biblical marriage about the husband lovingly leading, and the wife humbly submitting? Because in the eternal relationship between Christ and the church, Christ leads and the church submits --- NEVER the other way around.


That may be true for God and the church, but it doesn't have to be true for a marriage, which is an equal partnership and not a hierarchy.
Ringo
 
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D

dies-l

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Ultimately, Ringo, the question comes down to God's authority over His creation. After all, it was He who created mankind in two genders, male and female. Additionally, it was God who determined the roles men and women should fill. While equal in value, men and women are not equal in function. Speaking broadly, God designed men to lead and women to follow. But this doesn't answer your question...why?

Ephesians 5:21-33 is perhaps one of the best known passages dealing with the relationship of husband and wife. It begins with the admonition to all Christians that we should be subject one to another. The Apostle Paul, who wrote the letter to the Ephesians under the direction of God's Holy Spirit, then goes on to provide three examples that characterize this submission.

1. Husbands and wives
2. Parents and children
3. Masters and slaves

While many in the feminist community like to use verse 21 --- "Be subject to one another in the fear of Christ" --- as justification for mutual submission where no one leads, this is to ignore the context of the passage. Take a look at the three example relationships, only start with #3 just to clarify things a bit. The slave is commanded to obey and serve his master with all diligence, while similarly the master is called to treat his slave fairly, since God doesn't play favorites based on human social distinctions. Nevertheless, the master leads and the slave follows; never the other way around. Similarly with parents and their children; the parents lead and the children obey. These are example of human relationships that manifest the truth of verse 21 --- submitting one to another.

Then look at husbands and wives. 5:22-24 makes it clear how a wife should submit to her husband. "Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord." [5:22/NASB] Notice the relationship between a woman's relationship to her husband, and her relationship to Christ.

Likewise, in verses 25 and following, we see that husbands are to love their wives just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her. When believing men and women are living out the kind of marriage God prescribes in His Word, they are saying something very important about the relationship between Christ and His bride, the church. In fact, 5:32 makes it clear that this is the very thing Paul was getting at to begin with. God engineered marriage to reflect the union of His Son to Christians.

So here's the big "WHY": Why is biblical marriage about the husband lovingly leading, and the wife humbly submitting? Because in the eternal relationship between Christ and the church, Christ leads and the church submits --- NEVER the other way around.

But I have an even bigger question for you --- one you're going to have to contend with if you're ever going to resolve this issue. There is no question as to what the Bible teaches about marriage. The only relevant question for you is ... will you submit to God's authority over your life?

From this analysis, I assume that you would also argue that Paul (and, therefore God) was endorsing slavery within this passage. Is this correct?
 
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edie19

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it appears that some interpret submission with being a second class citizen or that it means their opinion doesn't matter

nothing could be farther from the truth

the example is Christ - who had great respect for women, certainly not in accordance with the cultural mores of the day
He first declared Himself Messiah to a woman
He welcomed women to learn from Him (Mary of Bethany)
He defended women (again, Mary of Bethany)
He first appeared as the resurrected Christ to a woman

along the same line, don't forget a very important part of Paul's instruction re: husbands and wives
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her Ephesians 5:25
I guarantee - if husbands uphold this part, submission on the woman's part is a non-issue
 
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DeaconDean

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it appears that some interpret submission with being a second class citizen or that it means their opinion doesn't matter

nothing could be farther from the truth

the example is Christ - who had great respect for women, certainly not in accordance with the cultural mores of the day
He first declared Himself Messiah to a woman
He welcomed women to learn from Him (Mary of Bethany)
He defended women (again, Mary of Bethany)
He first appeared as the resurrected Christ to a woman

along the same line, don't forget a very important part of Paul's instruction re: husbands and wives

I guarantee - if husbands uphold this part, submission on the woman's part is a non-issue

Wisdom well beyond your years.

Reps coming to ya!

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Ringo84

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it appears that some interpret submission with being a second class citizen or that it means their opinion doesn't matter


I would hope not.


the example is Christ - who had great respect for women, certainly not in accordance with the cultural mores of the day
He first declared Himself Messiah to a woman
He welcomed women to learn from Him (Mary of Bethany)
He defended women (again, Mary of Bethany)
He first appeared as the resurrected Christ to a woman


Exactly, which is why I don't understand why women were supposedly singled out to do all of the submitting.
Ringo
 
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edie19

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[/size][/color][/font]

I would hope not.



[/size][/color][/font]Exactly, which is why I don't understand why women were supposedly singled out to do all of the submitting.
Ringo

you're missing the point of my post - you're the one who has a problem with the submitting part because you're focusing on that word alone making it seem like it's a bad thing, it isn't

again - if husbands love their wives like Christ loved the church, it's a non-issue
 
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matilda1991

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Don't get me wrong, I don't mean that the woman should be able to boss the husband around. What I do mean is I would like to be able to have a say in things. I would like to be able to make decisions alongside my husband. The only thing I would not mind the man having complete say in is finances, as I've never been good with them.

Maybe a better question to ask is what is the Biblical definition of submission? What does that entail?

So you basically just want to do what you want. I try to put the Bible teaches us to do before my personal choices. Some of my choices have not only been against the Bible but turned out very bad.
 
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