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Boy! I Never had nude models when I was 14

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Shane Roach

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I have no idea what sort of boring profs, fellow students, or models you folks had, but I'll re-emphasize when I took the classes, yeah.. no one went slobbering all over the models, but there is sexual tension there, and people discussed it, played with the idea, etc.

The guy I took watercolor and figure's from was a character, and the entire concept of what the mood is when you are making a specific piece of art and how that relates to nudes was something he had no problem expounding on.

I remember an art book I was reading where the artist was doing a nude of a young man, and went into some detail as to what it made him think the young man had been up to the day before.

It's as if you were all taught figure's by robots with robot fellow students? And then at the end of one of the posts we end up talking about masturbation. How is that not a total acknowledgment of the sexual aspect?

I'm in with the people that say it would depend on the 14 year old, but I'd have no illusions of it being an entirely mundane affair devoid of any sexual aspect.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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That sort of reached out and grabbed me...

Not meaning to derail the thread, but that seems untrue to me. In fact, I couldn't count on my fingers and toes the number of times I have heard it said that this was not a Christian teaching?

Maybe an issue for a different topic though. Just sort of shocked me. Not in any horrible way mind you! Just took me by surprise.

It's because it's the gratification of sex without the marriage. But I don't want to derail the thread either. Feel free to start a thread on it, or find one that's in progress somewhere (there's gotta be one or two). Almost all the Christians I know outside of CF believe it to be wrong, but have probably engaged in it, too.
 
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Verv

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So I guess you think that the magnificently painted ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is what? Porn? Michaelangelo's "David" is what? Smut? These are great works of art. You must learn that nudity is not always sexual. It is the way in which the nudity is presented that makes it sexual or not. There are a great many classic pieces of art that depict the human form in nakedness, yet do not portray the nude body in a sexual manner.

I regard it as art, sure, but the nudity is unnecessary to some extent, I guess.

I generally agree with you on the sentiment but I do not think drawing nudes is a great idea for 14 year olds.

You do realize, I hope, that both of those sentences are a purely cultural construct, right?
Many cultures throughout the world have seen nothing wrong (and not in the wa wa wee wow way) with female breasts, the male penis, etc.
Walking around naked in most areas can be a bad idea due simply to the variances in weather and temperature (not to mention protection of "your goods"), but nudity as art is a time honored (and accepted) tradition ("I'll take the Sistine Chapel for $500, Alex")

Yeah, they are a cultural construct... But you know what? I enjoy my cultural construct. So what? My culture is nice...

Life without culture would be what? We'd have no way to properly view things as a collective society.

Many cultures throughout the world have viewed the human body as what it is sometimes -- sexual. And many societies throughout the world, including atheist societies such as China, are not intrigued by the idea of showing their 14 year old daughters a grown man's phallus.

I take it you've never tried to draw the human form before.

I have. I used to draw Army dudes and guys riding skateboards.

I think I once drew some penises -- some of them urinating -- on paper and showed my friends.

I have no idea what sort of boring profs, fellow students, or models you folks had, but I'll re-emphasize when I took the classes, yeah.. no one went slobbering all over the models, but there is sexual tension there, and people discussed it, played with the idea, etc.

I imagine there is.

It is puritanical nonsense that the naked body necessarily invokes a sexual connotation. With that said, it really depends on the maturity of the particular 14 year old - not some inherent property of a nude model in an art class.

I do not even need the naked body to view humans as sexual -- just get a girl with a lollipop, right? Right?! Come on, guys...

But really, would you be excited for your 14 year old daughter to be drawing a phallus? Your 14 year old son drawing a shaved female genitalia? I know, I know, it;'s not necessarily shaved but I know if I were a woman posing nude I'd stay classy about it.

I figure 14 year olds should be awkwardly trying to kiss at the movies and looking at pornography on the internet instead of having it offered to them on a plate by their education.

God knows, though, if we don't let 14 year olds draw live nudes they will never get to the heights of Leonardo.
 
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Tiberius

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I regard it as art, sure, but the nudity is unnecessary to some extent, I guess.

And what extent is that?

I generally agree with you on the sentiment but I do not think drawing nudes is a great idea for 14 year olds.

Teaching 14 year olds that nudity doesn't equal porn would go a long way to getting rid of the whole twisted notion that nude = porn.
 
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Bro_Sam

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Came across this interesting little offering from the University of the Arts in Philadelphia.
2008 - 2009 Pre-College Saturday School

The Pre-College Saturday School at The University of the Arts has been providing quality arts education to Philadelphia area students for more than 100 years.​

About the Pre-College Saturday School: The Pre-College Saturday School at The University of the Arts offers college-level courses designed specifically for high school students in grades 9 through 12. Courses are offered in fine arts, crafts, design, media, writing, and communication.​

Nude Models
Many of the Pre-College Saturday School courses use nude models to help students build a strong foundation of observational skills. Students should anticipate the use of nude models in the following courses: Drawing I, Drawing II, Painting I, Painting II, Portfolio Preparation, Figure Drawing, Figure Sculpture, and Watercolor Painting. Students are expected to behave with maturity and professionalism in the presence of a model.​

So, what do you think: would you allow your 14 yo daughter to gaze at a naked man, or let your son carefully look over a naked woman?

Appropriate offering for kids this age or not?

When I was fifteen, I took some classes at the Fleischman Institute (which, ironically, is only a few blocks away from the school mentioned in the OP).

Yes, we had nude models. I had seen naked men many times in locker rooms and such, but seeing a naked girl for the first time really freaked me out.

I'm torn. On the one hand, I believe that nudity is something to be reserved for you and your spouse but, on the other hand, I do understand the importance of studying the body for arts' sake.

Of course, if it were my fourteen year old, I'd have to put my foot down and say no.
 
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Allister

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The best way to make it non-sexual nude drawing, from the perspective of 14 year old kids, is to have naked old people or naked obese people. It seems everyone's making the assumption that these nudes are going to have pop stars or football stars' bodies.
 
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Verv

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And what extent is that?

I don't know? I mean, I cannot come out here and produce a for certain guidelines on when nudity does and does not constitute artwork.

However, I can tell you that 14 year olds probably aren't going to be producing much art whether there are nude figures or not in front of them. :)

Maybe they should draw a guy with a skateboard?

Teaching 14 year olds that nudity doesn't equal porn would go a long way to getting rid of the whole twisted notion that nude = porn.

What?

I get sexually excited by short skirts on the right women.

A beautiful woman nude is pretty nice, bro.

Nudity =/= sexuality

Get it through your skulls, Americans! A more healthy attitude towards the human body would do you lots of good.

Well, Jane, you know in Asia they still separate males and females when they bathe nude together at the public bath houses.

I think the reason is simple...

Beautiful, naked women doesn't exactly "not produce sexual feelings."

I see something I want and I want it.

Is that simple?
 
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QuakerOats

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I do not even need the naked body to view humans as sexual -- just get a girl with a lollipop, right? Right?! Come on, guys...
And therein lies the key. A girl with a lollipop is not inherently sexual. It's all in how we view the world around us.

But really, would you be excited for your 14 year old daughter to be drawing a phallus? Your 14 year old son drawing a shaved female genitalia? I know, I know, it;'s not necessarily shaved but I know if I were a woman posing nude I'd stay classy about it.
I don't know that I'd be 'excited,' as that seems a bit extreme, but I certainly wouldn't mind or discourage it.
 
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tcampen

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I figure 14 year olds should be awkwardly trying to kiss at the movies and looking at pornography on the internet instead of having it offered to them on a plate by their education.

I don't see how a nude model in a legitimate art class is the same as pornography on the internet.

Unless this is intended to be a joke.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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I get sexually excited by short skirts on the right women.
Actually, certain clothing can be a lot more suggestive than plain nudity.

Well, Jane, you know in Asia they still separate males and females when they bathe nude together at the public bath houses.

I think the reason is simple...

Beautiful, naked women doesn't exactly "not produce sexual feelings."

I see something I want and I want it.

Is that simple?
I think the reason is simple: your culture has cultivated this particular repressive attitude and thus created the inevitable... "pressures" that follow it. It's all about context. A beatiful, naked person can arouse - so can a beatiful, suggestively clothed person; or a beautiful person, period. On the other hand, the very same person may not produce any of these feelings in a context that is sufficiently non-sexual (such as at a bath, where no one has the intention to entice another), provided that we're faced with people who haven't been geared towards perpetual sexual immaturity.
 
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wanderingone

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This is an art school, not some afterschool playground, I imagine the majority of students involved either already display talent in various artistic endeavors or have parents who are raising them around fine arts. Learning art generally includes learning the human form, the wood statues can only help just so much. The school is not springing nudity on their classes unexpectedly, so it would be my opinion that in this environment it's not inappropriate.

My daughter has attended art classes with models, both clothed and nude, she's an artist with considerable talents. She's just turned 16, I believe she was 12 the first time there was a semi nude model in one of her drawing classes. It's not something I ever would have considered for my other 2 children, they aren't interested in creating art.
 
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wanderingone

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I don't see how a nude model in a legitimate art class is the same as pornography on the internet.

Unless this is intended to be a joke.

And.. honestly it seems to be imagined that the models for these classes are somehow always sexually appealing to the majority. Several of the models for my daughter's class last year were certainly not what I would call conventionally attractive. --
 
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wanderingone

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But really, would you be excited for your 14 year old daughter to be drawing a phallus? Your 14 year old son drawing a shaved female genitalia? I know, I know, it;'s not necessarily shaved but I know if I were a woman posing nude I'd stay classy about it.

I figure 14 year olds should be awkwardly trying to kiss at the movies and looking at pornography on the internet instead of having it offered to them on a plate by their education.

It's not being offered to them on a plate... (as far as I know it's not common for models to be presented on a platter....) There's no doubt that there is sexual tension in a room when there are nude models posing... I expect those who create art get over it and find a way to incorporate their feelings in their work. Do I want my daughter drawing a "phallus"? she's drawn a penis, she doesn't find men appealing so I'd say it didn't trouble me much... the first time she drew a nude male she said she giggled and had to leave the room and compose herself but then she was okay.... and... one doesn't have to be shaved to be classy...but I think that might be another matter entirely...
 
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wanderingone

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I don't know? I mean, I cannot come out here and produce a for certain guidelines on when nudity does and does not constitute artwork.

However, I can tell you that 14 year olds probably aren't going to be producing much art whether there are nude figures or not in front of them. :)

Maybe they should draw a guy with a skateboard?

A 14 year old who is an artist is producing art. Do you think artistic talent suddenly appears at the age of 21? As soon as my daughter started taking her figure drawing/painting classes her skills grew tremendously.. seeing the body and how it moves, shapes itself makes drawing clothed figures, figures that are meant to suggest motion etc.. even easier. Drawing that guy on a skateboard can be art you know.. and my daughter can create the image of a person involved in athletic activity far better after studying anatomy and physiology and having had the opportunity to take classes that involved real models, both clothed and unclothed.
 
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Verv

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I don't see how a nude model in a legitimate art class is the same as pornography on the internet.

Unless this is intended to be a joke.

Well, I was walking down the street last night -- one of my favorite bars is in a prostitution district -- and a lady stopped in the shortest skirt ever, revealing even a small amount of the 'behind,' her leg propped on the door, gesturing me with her finger.

I smiled and felt the Satanic passion entering me and laughed about it on the way home. She was amazing.

And she wasn't even nude.

There is something great about the human imagination -- some of us got good ones, and it doesn't take much to make us run.

Actually, certain clothing can be a lot more suggestive than plain nudity.


I think the reason is simple: your culture has cultivated this particular repressive attitude and thus created the inevitable... "pressures" that follow it. It's all about context. A beatiful, naked person can arouse - so can a beatiful, suggestively clothed person; or a beautiful person, period. On the other hand, the very same person may not produce any of these feelings in a context that is sufficiently non-sexual (such as at a bath, where no one has the intention to entice another), provided that we're faced with people who haven't been geared towards perpetual sexual immaturity.

Oh come on, none of this 'your culture is somehow inferior.' What are you talking about? More of this B. S. that I am some shallow product of my culture. Of course to some extent we are socially molded but there seems to be a trend...

Americans are sexual.
Koreans are sexual.
Korean-Americans are sexual.

There will always be sexual tension when faced with the gender you are attracted to naked, unless it is someone who is too old or too young to be sexually attractive.

I am a male and I associate nudity with sex. Probably because sex involves genitals that normally are clothed. Perhaps if I walked around naked all day long with other nude people I would lose such a context.

We are animals, are we not?

We evolved, did we not?

Do we not, then, have some instincts that cannot be muted -- instincts to breed?

If we were like most animals we'd even approve of rape as an acceptable means of reproduction. :D Just a thought.

A 14 year old who is an artist is producing art. Do you think artistic talent suddenly appears at the age of 21? As soon as my daughter started taking her figure drawing/painting classes her skills grew tremendously.. seeing the body and how it moves, shapes itself makes drawing clothed figures, figures that are meant to suggest motion etc.. even easier. Drawing that guy on a skateboard can be art you know.. and my daughter can create the image of a person involved in athletic activity far better after studying anatomy and physiology and having had the opportunity to take classes that involved real models, both clothed and unclothed.

Sure, I agree; people from young ages ought to be cultivated in their art. Entirely.

However, I do not think drawing nudes is necessary.

I agree with you -- but how about kids do appropriate topics for their ages? I see no point in them drawing nudes.

I also do not think that kids should be learning how to perform Cannibal Corpse's "They Deserve To Die" if they are studying music. However, that is one, really good song.
 
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QuakerOats

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Oh come on, none of this 'your culture is somehow inferior.' What are you talking about? More of this B. S. that I am some shallow product of my culture. Of course to some extent we are socially molded but there seems to be a trend...
I agree with Jane. It's largely in how you view the world around you. If it weren't, no one would be able to draw the nude human body, or go to a nudist resort, etc., without becoming aroused. And yet, people do just that every day. They train their minds to not automatically think 'nudity equals sex(ual) [all the time].' I imagine doctors also do this; they'd pretty much have to.
 
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rambot

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I don't know if anyone's ever worked with a nude model before and it's really not a big deal. There is nothing inherently sexual about it.

And doesn't mean people won't be aroused by it necessarily. But really how many men do you think go through the Louvre in Paris and and get hot and bothered by Venus Di Milo? I'd wager, very few.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Oh come on, none of this 'your culture is somehow inferior.' What are you talking about? More of this B. S. that I am some shallow product of my culture. Of course to some extent we are socially molded but there seems to be a trend...
Inferior? That designation is not even part of the scale. There's no "superior", either as far as cultures are concerned - just differences. Not ethics might be a different matter altogether, as certain forms of social progress are inherently tied to improved living conditions, but culture in general is not open to such evaluations.
A tuxedo is not inherently "superior" to an Indian Sherwani, a Japanese Samue or even a traditional New Guinean penis sheath.

Americans are sexual.
Koreans are sexual.
Korean-Americans are sexual.
Being sexual is not the problem. Every people on the globe is sexual.
Being sexually *neurotic* is the problem. I don't know enough about Koreans to comment on that, but Americans approach sexuality (or even nudity) like immature teenagers.

There will always be sexual tension when faced with the gender you are attracted to naked, unless it is someone who is too old or too young to be sexually attractive.
The same goes for being in the presence of the same persons wearing clothes, especially if the clothes aren't exactly designed to hide their body forms altogether. Non?

I am a male and I associate nudity with sex. Probably because sex involves genitals that normally are clothed. Perhaps if I walked around naked all day long with other nude people I would lose such a context.
I take it you've never been to a nude beach, then? Yes, you'd quickly lose such a context. More quickly than you might think possible.

We are animals, are we not?

We evolved, did we not?

Do we not, then, have some instincts that cannot be muted -- instincts to breed?

If we were like most animals we'd even approve of rape as an acceptable means of reproduction. :D Just a thought.
Comparing ourselves to other mammals, even our closest "relatives", brings up an interesting issue.
Out of all the great apes, we are the only ones who know neither mating seasons nor a means of telling whether a woman is at the fertile point of her cycle or not. Contrasting our most instinctual (read: not culture-specific) sexual behaviour with that of our closest "relatives", the genus "pan", leads me to the following hypothesis:
social mammals living in extended groups need some means to regulate sexuality, lest the pent-up energies rip the group apart. The patriarchal chimpanzees do so by establishing an aggressive, male pecking order; the matriarchal bonobos do so by mating freely and for fun, appeasing aggressive males by re-directing their energies "elsewhere". And Man apparently does so by restricting sex to the private sphere as much as possible.

By the way, evolution describes an "is", not an "ought". And yes, for most of our history, Man had little moral inhibitions with regards to rape, especially when it came to women of foreign tribes or nations. It is blandly referenced without the least hint of guilt or conflict in Roman, Greek and Hebrew writings, for example.
And it's not as if this mysteriously stopped with the onset of the (post-)industrial age, either: the Japanese Imperial Army kept whole camps filled with "comfort women" of Korean or Chinese stock, forcing them to work as prostitutes; the Russian Red Army raped thousands of dispossessed German refugees (among them my grandmother) in 1945; the Serbs systematically raped Croatian and Bosnian women in the 1990s. And so on and so forth. Even if we restrict it to instances such as these, where these deeds weren't isolated incidents committed by rogue soldiers acting on their own, we could come up with quite an impressive list for the 20th century alone, I am sure.
 
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