Trinity is wrong.

[Ichabod 2]

Here's 2 out of 3. You won't see the 3rd until you can see the first two. As you say, God does hide His deeper truth.



bump

Of course, this only shows there to be 2 persons of God and after reading some of your threads, I'm sure you'll reject it as scriptural proof of a trinity and rightly so because the HS is not in this text.

But, you'd have to concede there are 2 persons called God as this shows the Father speaking of the Son.

Can you concede this point of truth?

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom
​

Where does it say anything about God being three persons in Heb. 1:8; it is not there. The word three persons is a non scrpitural religious term. God is one.

 

[k2svpete]

Jesus, a human in right standing with God? Please explain.

Being without sin, Jesus was righteous.

 

[k2svpete]

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom
​

Where does it say anything about God being three persons in Heb. 1:8; it is not there. The word three persons is a non scrpitural religious term. God is one.

Going through the verses either side of this with an interlinear bible, you can see that there is a different root word used that has been translated as God, each time. It suggests a translation error.

 

[k2svpete]

Here is a SIMPLE word game for you. Show me a verse which states that Jesus is a person? Show me a verse which states that anyone in scripture is a person? If you cannot find a verse that has the word "person" and any human being together in God''s word, you have no argument. SO SIMPLE!

As I said the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are called or referred to as God, but they are distinct from each other. All three have distinct minds, wills, and selves.

Well Romans 5:15 explicitly tells us that Jesus Christ is a man. A man is a person.

Next straw argument......

 

[ContraMundum]

There is no text that says God is made up of three persons. You cannot produce it; manufacture it or dream this information to be in God’s Word; it is not there. You are wrong and no matter how many ways to spin it there is no trinity with out three person.

Please deal with the text I already provided. This is your last chance.

 

[ContraMundum]

IF Jesus is equal to God then that proves that he is not God, IF I am equal to you that proves that I am not you.

That doesnt make sense when dealing with Divinity, and yet your comments support my point rather well.

We are both human beings. On that basis, we are equal. What do we share? Being human. Our essence is humanity. Now, if Jesus is equal to God- what does He share with God? God's essence is Divinity. Divinity is not created- it just is. It is unique to God. You can I can't be Divine because we are created in His image (check out the Hebrew on that!)m can we? Therefore, we are not equal with God. Now, who is equal with God? Jesus.

Plus, unbelieving Jews accusing Jesus of being anything proves nothing.
You are wrong. It does not. alpha and omega are greek letters, the OT wasn't written in Greek.

Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.


Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Sorry...but Jesus is God.

god personifies his spirit in the bible at times at times he doesn't, when the word of God says "the Holy spirit descended like a dove" the holy Spirit is being spoken of as if it were a seperate being , just as mary spoke of her soul as if it were a seperate being, that is personification.

If I say "My heart goes out to the lost" I have personified my heart in that I have spoken of it as if it were another being other than me, which it is not, In fact my heart isn't even a being but I spoke of it as if it were.
No he does not seperate a portion of himself, that is your doctrine not mine. God is one is my doctrine, and he is the holy spirit and he is God the father, God the father is the holy spirit and god speaks of his spirit sometimes AS IF it were another being, which is personification. I say it's personification you say it's 2 beings that are one being. 2 beings are one being is illogical, personifications are not illogical. If you think you can just decide something is logical and therefore it is logical, you are very mistaken.

So...where was God? Explain how this theory of yours actually works.

 

[k2svpete]

Please deal with the text I already provided. This is your last chance.

What scripture was that please? I'd likely miss it if I was to try trawling back through the pages.

 

[ContraMundum]

What scripture was that please? I'd likely miss it if I was to try trawling back through the pages.

It was meant for that other guy who hasn't addressed it yet. Don't let it worry you.

 

[k2svpete]

That doesnt make sense when dealing with Divinity, and yet your comments support my point rather well.

We are both human beings. On that basis, we are equal. What do we share? Being human. Our essence is humanity. Now, if Jesus is equal to God- what does He share with God? God's essence is Divinity. Divinity is not created- it just is. It is unique to God. You can I can't be Divine because we are created in His image (check out the Hebrew on that!)m can we? Therefore, we are not equal with God. Now, who is equal with God? Jesus.

Jesus was granted God's authority, therefore being able to act on His behalf and with his power. This was done through the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Note that it was also when the Apostles were baptised with the Holy Spirit that they began to perform miracles. Jesus is not divine, the bible does not support that and Jesus himself goes out of his way to make the distinction between God and himself several times.

Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Great, so you are affirming that God is one and was from the beginning to the end and are drawing on prophecy that is related to the coming of Christ. Not sure what you are trying to bring out.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Again, an affirmation of the existence of the plan for salvation from the beginning combined with the signs and symbology that is present throughout Revelation'

Sorry...but Jesus is God.

No, he isn't. Keep trying.

 

[k2svpete]

It was meant for that other guy who hasn't addressed it yet. Don't let it worry you.

I'd like to see what you were making reference to. As you would have gathered by now, I don't toe the trinitarian party line.

 

[Ichabod 2]

Please deal with the text I already provided. This is your last chance.

You proved nothing; if you wnt me to deal with text repost each verse and we will discuss each verse in depth.

 

[2ducklow]

That doesnt make sense when dealing with Divinity, and yet your comments support my point rather well.

We are both human beings. On that basis, we are equal. What do we share? Being human. Our essence is humanity. Now, if Jesus is equal to God- what does He share with God? God's essence is Divinity. Divinity is not created- it just is. It is unique to God. You can I can't be Divine because we are created in His image (check out the Hebrew on that!)m can we? Therefore, we are not equal with God. Now, who is equal with God? Jesus.

then you have 2 gods, just as you have 2 humans in your analogy.

Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.


Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Sorry...but Jesus is God.

some bibles have something different for rev. 1.11.

(Rotherham) Revelation 1:11 saying--What thou seest, write in a scroll, and send unto the Seven Assemblies,--unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum,--and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia,--and unto Laodicea.

or

(ASV) Revelation 1:11 saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send [it] to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

I did a little checking on it and apparently it isn't in the older Greek manuscripts, and thus more modern translations are going along with rotherham and the asv on this one.

But back to the topic, which verse says only God is the first and the last?

So...where was God? Explain how this theory of yours actually works.

god is everywhere. He was then and is now. How did he descend like a dove? I could only offer a guess since the bible doesn't say how he descended like a dove. My guess is that it is just a figurative expression to give us some understanding of what he did. Just as the bible says 'the arm of the Lord" or "sit at the right hand of god" or when the God says stuff like "my soul " Just personifications to give us some idea of what god means. NOt exact.

See, God speaks of his spirit in two ways in the bible. sometimes he says he has a spirit othertimes he says he is a spirit.

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Judges 14:19 And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father's house.


or here's a good one in one sentence.



(Rotherham) 1 Samuel 16:14 But, the spirit of Yahweh, departed from Saul,--and there terrified him a sad spirit, from Yahweh. Rotherham doesn't use the LORD stuff, he calls Yahweh by his name always. Seethere aren't 2 beings YHWH and the spirit of YHWH. there is one being YHWH who has a spirit. But in the first portion of this sentence the spirit of Yahweh is being personified, spoken of as if it were another being who performed the action of departing. But it was Yahweh who departed, The spirit of Yahweh is Yahweh's spirit, he is a spirit being. IMO, you fail to even consider personifications as a possiblility to your doctrinal detriment.

You don't seem to either understand me or want to acknowledge my explanation, or possibly I don't understand what you are trying to get at.. when the bible says the holy spirit descended like a dove, holy spirit is being personified by the author, in this case God. which means that God was speaking of his spirit AS IF it were another being, not that it is another being. PERSONIFICATION. I keep saying this over and over and you either don't understand what I"m saying or are r efusing to aknowledge it. Perhaps you don't feel it answers your question, well I feel it does. if it doesn't how does it not answer your question?

 

[gort]

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom
​

Where does it say anything about God being three persons in Heb. 1:8; it is not there. The word three persons is a non scrpitural religious term. God is one.

No, so far there are 2 Gods. THe Father calling the Son God and in other places, the Son calling the Father God. I made no claim to the trinity being shown in the scripture I posted.

Can you concede there are 2 Gods?

 

[gort]

Going through the verses either side of this with an interlinear bible, you can see that there is a different root word used that has been translated as God, each time. It suggests a translation error.

the word is the same on either side and therefore not a translation error.

Can you concede there are 2 Gods; the Father speaking to the Son and calling him God. ANd we know that Jesus called the father, God.

 

[gort]

Being without sin, Jesus was righteous.

Your post intonates that Jesus had, for the most part, never descended from heaven. Did Jesus descend from heaven or was Jesus a human as you or I who never had an existence in heaven prior to being born on this earth?

Please clarify, and thanx

 

[k2svpete]

No, Jesus did not descend from anywhere. He was born of Mary and was as much flesh and blood as you and I. He did not come into existence until the point of conception. Prior to that, Jesus existed only in God's mind as the method of salvation for us all and in the scriptures, telling us what the plan was.

 

[k2svpete]

the word is the same on either side and therefore not a translation error.

Can you concede there are 2 Gods; the Father speaking to the Son and calling him God. ANd we know that Jesus called the father, God.

My apologies for the error with the root word, I read the reference number below, not above. (silly mistake).

I was wondering if you'd stumble on this one, here's a helping hand though.

Have a look at Ps 82. The term 'god' is not limited to a spiritual or supernatural being. The judges were referred to as gods, in keeping with the conventions of the day for displaying respect to office holders. When not being used as a proper noun denoting GOD, it is a term of respect.

So, there is but one God, as we are told so very many times in scripture, in both the OT and NT, including by Jesus who goes out of his way to make distinctions between his Father, the one true God, and himself as His son.

 

[Ichabod 2]

No, Jesus did not descend from anywhere. He was born of Mary and was as much flesh and blood as you and I. He did not come into existence until the point of conception. Prior to that, Jesus existed only in God's mind as the method of salvation for us all and in the scriptures, telling us what the plan was.

God had a savior long before He had a sinner; who are you to say Jesus did not exist before He was conceived of Mary. I agree Jesus was manifested in the Flesh and did not desend from anywhere; but God is one; and there is no trinity or 2 God's but one.


1 Peter 1:19but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[2ducklow]

God had a savior long before He had a sinner; who are you to say Jesus did not exist before He was conceived of Mary. I agree Jesus was manifested in the Flesh and did not desend from anywhere; but God is one; and there is no trinity or 2 God's but one.


1 Peter 1:19but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

(Young) 1 Peter 1:20 foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,


There is no question that the Greek word here is foreknown and not foreordained. 1 pet. 1.20 proves nothingabout a preexcistant christ.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus was not slain at the foundation of the world he was slainmuch much much later, at the time of Pontius Pilate, Most all christians know that. So obviously this verse is saying that God foreknew that Jesus would be slain from the time of the foundation of the world.

 

[Ichabod 2]

[/font]

(Young) 1 Peter 1:20 foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,


There is no question that the Greek word here is foreknown and not foreordained. 1 pet. 1.20 proves nothingabout a preexcistant christ.
Jesus was not slain at the foundation of the world he was slainmuch much much later, at the time of Pontius Pilate, Most all christians know that. So obviously this verse is saying that God foreknew that Jesus would be slain from the time of the foundation of the world.

Is not Jesus God?

Does not God have not a beginning or end; or is Jesus god?