Calvinist Robots

[&Abel]

All men are condemned before God. He just chooses some to save. It is mans sin that predestines them to Hell not God.. God in His mercy chooses some out of condemnation for salvation.

wrong god reaches out to all men and those who respond are those who are predestined

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We did not say that He chose some for eternal punishment.. He chose those to whom He gives salvation to..
Rom 8:29 because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

This is interesting. That ISA interlinear parses the greek and it used the word "fore-seeses" in that verse. May work on this some more

http://www.scripture4all.org/


Romans 8:29 That whom/P He fore-knew and/also fore-seeizes/pro-wrisen <4309> (5656) conformed of the image of the Son of Him into the to be Him firstborn in/among many brethren

Textus Rec.) Romans 8:29 oti ouV pro-egnw kai pro-wrisen sum-morfouV thV eikonoV tou uiou autou eiV to einai auton prwtotokon en polloiV adelfoiV

4309. proorizo pro-or-id'-zo from 4253 and 3724; to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:--determine before, ordain, predestinate.

4832. summorphos soom-mor-[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]' from 4862 and

3444; jointly formed, i.e. (figuratively) similar:--conformed to, fashioned like unto.

 

[&Abel]

and we haven't been conformed yet so it has to be future

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

and we haven't been conformed yet so it has to be future

Yep. About the time the "heavens and land" are changed

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a instant, in wink/riph <4493> of an eye in the last trumpet.
For He shall be trumpeting, and the dead-ones shall be being roused/egerqhsontai <1453> (5701) uncorruptible, and we shall be being changed/allaghsomeqa <236> (5691).

Hebrew 1:12 and as if a covering/about-cast thou shall be rolling up them as a cloak and they shall be being changed/allaghsontai <236> (5691).
Thou yet the same are and the years of Thee shall not be lacking/failing.

 

[MamaZ]

and we haven't been conformed yet so it has to be future

If it was future it would read will conform will justify and will glorify. It does not read that way. It reads as already done.

 

[MamaZ]

To know before hand is the definition my scriptures have..

 

[MamaZ]

How many dead people can choose to ressurect themselves? How many babies can choose to be born?

 

[MamaZ]

who did Christ give Himself up for? Scripture tell us this..



Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly and gave Himself up on its behalf,
Eph 5:26 that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of the water in the Word,
Eph 5:27 that He might present it to Himself as the glorious assembly, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such things, but that it be holy and without blemish.

 

[squint]

Here's your dilemma (and the ultimate Arminian dilemma) squint;

God created all those people who eventually end up in Hell.

I've told you already I'm not an arminian. And for the record, there is not one whit of scriptural evidence of any named person who is said to be headed to hell, NOR is there a single named person in the entirety of the Bible ever threatened with such a fate.

God obviously knew at the time he created them that they would end up in hell.

But God created them anyway.

Is THIS the God you know?

Uh, no. So please don't bother to guess and then try to paint me with your guesses.

In short mankind is not alone in flesh or in mind. And any who pick up the scriptures apart from this understanding is quickly going to be deceived.

In the light of this FACT I have no use in hearing the Words of destruction that are meant for THE DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS who are 'with mankind' and then putting those WORDS upon those I am commanded to love.

IF my unsaved neighbors are blinded by the 'god of this world' then I will PRAY for their release and condemn the power that blinds and binds them and I will LOVE them in any case.

God in Christ represented Himself as THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD. I believe He actually gets the job done.

Problem?

enjoy!

squint

 

[Rick Otto]

IF my unsaved neighbors are blinded by the 'god of this world' then I will PRAY for their release and condemn the power that blinds and binds them and I will LOVE them in any case.

I knew that.

 

[squint]

I knew that.

If you did you wouldn't condemn the blinded captive of the 'god of this world' and you would see the OTHER PRESENCE with them as the CAUSE of their UNbelief.

Jesus didn't come to CONDEMN the captives, but to FREE them.

UNfortunately to divide from them one must both see them and admit to their presence as something that is not us as Gods children. Therein lies the rub. They don't like that. They would rather lead us to blame, accuse and condemn our fellow man. To condemn our fellow man to HELL. And to promote those we are to LOVE rather to be burned alive forever.

The very opposite of what we have been commanded to do. That is the produce of the DEVILS in believing mankind.

enjoy yer SONday!

squint

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

I've told you already I'm not an arminian. And for the record, there is not one whit of scriptural evidence of any named person who is said to be headed to hell, NOR is there a single named person in the entirety of the Bible ever threatened with such a fate.

Problem?

enjoy!

squint

Thank you for your response. I am still a bit puzzled by your theological stand.

Correct me if I am wrong, but your post seems to express a more or less Universalist Unitarian point of view.

If I read your post right, you seem to believe one of the following ideas:

1) All men will (eventually be saved) and no man will ever be sent to hell (Unitarian Universalist)

2) God may send some people to hell, but he really didn't know who they were when he created them, and still doesn't really know because God does not really know the future (Open Theology)

3) There really isn't such a place as Hell. When those who are not saved die, they will just be erased from existence (Jehovah's Witnesses)

4) When "good" people who did not repent and follow Christ die, they don't really go to hell, they go to a place where they can work off their sins until they are holy enough to enter into presence of God (Catholic)

5) There really isn't a Hell, just different degrees of heaven. There is, however, a place where devils and ex-mormons will be sent, but the number is very few and everyone else will go to some degree of heaven. (Mormon)

5) God really wants to save everyone, but because he gave men the "gift" of "free will", God is powerless to save people unless they are good enough or smart enough and holy enough to receive the gift of salvation that is offered to all men. (Catholic/Arminian)


So in order to have a meaningful discussion on this issue, perhaps you could tell me exactly which camp best describes your position on soteriology.

Thanks,

Dalmas

 

[squint]

Thank you for your response. I am still a bit puzzled by your theological stand.

Correct me if I am wrong, but your post seems to express a more or less Universalist Unitarian point of view.

I thought I was pretty clear about asking you not to guess. NO, I am not a 'unitarian universalist.'

I accept every eternal torment/wrath scripture. Maybe not like you do however. If you want to know what I believe, just ASK first. It's a lot easier. I also adhere to the Nicene Creed.

If I read your post right, you seem to believe one of the following ideas:

1) All men will (eventually be saved) and no man will ever be sent to hell (Unitarian Universalist)

I don't know or care what the unitarian universalists believe. I know they are not christians in the N.Creed sense of the word.

2) God may send some people to hell, but he really didn't know who they were when he created them, and still doesn't really know because God does not really know the future (Open Theology)

Nope. Next guess?

3) There really isn't such a place as Hell. When those who are not saved die, they will just be erased from existence (Jehovah's Witnesses)

The Lake of Fire is being prepared if not done already and it will have tormented occupants forever and ever.

4) When "good" people who did not repent and follow Christ die, they don't really go to hell, they go to a place where they can work off their sins until they are holy enough to enter into presence of God (Catholic)

I certainly believe God saves people POST death, and also PRE-death.

5) There really isn't a Hell, just different degrees of heaven. There is, however, a place where devils and ex-mormons will be sent, but the number is very few and everyone else will go to some degree of heaven. (Mormon)

Nope. And I don't understand the desire to put me in some other peoples theological cans. The field is vastly more interesting and vastly more (superior) positions are available. And the field of good minds continues to grow even within the groups you mention.

5) God really wants to save everyone, but because he gave men the "gift" of "free will", God is powerless to save people unless they are good enough or smart enough and holy enough to receive the gift of salvation that is offered to all men. (Catholic/Arminian)

And no again. I don't believe in 'freewill.' I already told you several posts ago I'm more 'determinist' than Calvinism.

So in order to have a meaningful discussion on this issue, perhaps you could tell me exactly which camp best describes your position on soteriology.

Great. Thanks for asking.

I believe all vessels of honor will be saved and will go to heaven and receive MERCY.

I believe all vessels of DIShonor already have wrath abiding upon them and they are all eventually going to the Lake of Fire.

And I believe that in every single individual lump of mankind/me that both vessels exist and are predestined on that basis.

How's that?

Too many scriptures to substantiate to cite. Take a small bite and see if you can digest logically.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Rick Otto]

The Lake of Fire is being prepared if not done already and it will have tormented occupants forever and ever.

I heard the marina is still under construction.

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

Seems to me that your soteriological position appears to be simply "Anti-Calvinist"

Other than that I can't seem to make any sense of it.

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

How's that?

enjoy!

squint

Seems to me that your soteriological position is simply "ANTI-CALVIN"

 

[squint]

Seems to me that your soteriological position appears to be simply "Anti-Calvinist"

I certainly do NOT believe that a single Calvinist will burn alive in hell if that's what you're inferring?

Other than that I can't seem to make any sense of it.

I largely base my beliefs on actually loving my neighbors as myself and justifying same scripturally.

I cannot say or justify that loving them means calling them totally depraved or sentencing them to automatically fry alive forever without requite is scriptural, right or equals anything similar to LOVING them. K? And I consider that anyone who does so is a slave of darkness who needs a little light. Nothing personal.

 

[squint]

I heard the marina is still under construction.

Make ready the ship of fools to soon set sail therein? I certainly have my hopes up for that one.

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

I certainly do NOT believe that a single Calvinist will burn alive in hell if that's what you're inferring?

Since I do not believe that one's soteriological viewpoint is a sign of salvation, I would suspect that there will be more than a couple of Calvinists who, while they express belief in the doctrines of grace, are not covered by the blood of Christ.

I largely base my beliefs on actually loving my neighbors as myself and justifying same scripturally.

I really don't see how that would affect anyone's soteriological position. But then as you have suggested, I can't read your mind. Unfortunately I can't understand your posts either.

 

[chestertonrules]

I really don't see how that would affect anyone's soteriological position. But then as you have suggested, I can't read your mind. Unfortunately I can't understand your posts either.

Do you believe that willful disobedience has no impact on our salvation?