Questions

[Wolfmane]

I have many questions that I'd like to discuss with anyone will to talk. I am looking for serious discussion about faith, religion, god, etc. I do not call myself a Christian, tho I do believe in a god or higher power. I have a very devout Christian friend who is trying hard to show me the light and save my soul by getting me to accept Christ. I struggle with what I see as inconssitancies in the Christian religion, and in religion itself. My friend does not have all the answers and so, to help broaden our conversations I have come here to seek the views of others on some of the topics that he and I discuss. Any feedback, comments, or questions will be appreciated.

Is the only way into Heaven through Christ?

 

[talitha]

Whoever comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. That is the bottom rung. The more of the Truth that you have encountered, the more you are responsible for. If you have heard the Gospel, you are accountable for that.

Some years ago I went as a missionary to Siberia. Many of the young people were being brought up with no understanding of God or of Christ. Their grandparents might have taken them to church, but most churches were silent places with statues and candles that the young people didn't understand. One of these young people, a girl named Oksana, told me when I met her (I was her next-door neighbor) that she had always known there was a God who loved her, even though nobody had told her that, and that the Soviet propaganda was wrong. She was naturally drawn to respond to our outreaches because she recognized the One that her heart already knew. If she had rejected what was being preached, it would have been rebellion against God, and she would have been liable before Him. If she had been hit by a bus before she heard the gospel preached where she could understand it, I don't believe she would've missed Heaven.

Does that make sense?

Yes, Jesus Christ is the only way to fellowship with the Father in Heaven - but some people have accepted Him without yet knowing it. Just my humble opinion.

"Blessed is the one who is not offended in me." - Jesus - Luke 7:23

tal

 

[Wolfmane]

Thanks Tal,
Yes that makes sense. It would certainly show a loving God who would not abandon a soul because it had not been able to know Christ yet. I also understand that the belief that once one has heard there is a responsibility to accept, or not accept. I don't however understand how someone can accept Christ without knowing yet. A young person, a teen ager say, in America may not have made a decision to accept Christ as their savior yet, but their are few in this country that have not heard of him, so does this teenager not get into heaven?

I believe that we should do unto other as we would have them do unto us. I believe that there are universal values that most men, of goodness, can agree on. You do not lie, cheat, steal, or murder. However, these things do not seem to be as important as accepting Christ as the savior of man.

Also, it seems that there are exceptions to the rule. I can't seem to come to terms with these exceptions. It's with this in mind that I've decided to join the forum to try and understand better.

Thanks again
Wolf

 

[drich0150]

Also, it seems that there are exceptions to the rule. I can't seem to come to terms with these exceptions. It's with this in mind that I've decided to join the forum to try and understand better.

Exceptions to excepting Christ? or the lie cheat and murder thing?
Please explain.

 

[Wolfmane]

Exceptions to excepting Christ. Sorry. But I think I get it now...once you know about him it's your responsibility to accept him. But that brings up the question of what about people like Ghandi?

 

[drich0150]

But that brings up the question of what about people like Ghandi?

You have to understand that "good or good deeds" is a relative term.. They are Good to us because we do not or can not walk that path. But when we hold our good deeds up to God's standard, the best among man does not measure up to True righteousness. At best our efforts are honorable to ourselves, but what real honor is their amongst Thieves?

You also need to know that "good deeds" don't erase evil ones. In God's economy 2 good deeds doesn't erase 1 bad one. The only way to erase a bad deed or sin is through Jesus.

 

[JohnDB]

Let's put it this way.
God is the creator of all life. And because God is so good He is holy. Holiness isn't just the absence of error but is also contains a positive reaction to error should it arise. Because of this error there is a separation of God and man. (needed for our survival).
Because of this separation and man's sin/inability to retell things straight (although we do go to great lengths to get it right) we forget things including our Creator.
God then caused a book to be written...started by Moses and then perpetuated by many others about the manner in which this separation could be repaired. (Which was Jesus) The books cost God many lives of people that He created to tell us about the coming Jesus. Jesus then came and did all that He was supposed to do with absolute precision in spite of heavy opposition by just about everyone except a handful of people. He showed us who He was by many signs and miracles. He then physically left but sent a "Helper" by with which that handful of believers continued on with His teachings and continued to perform many signs and miracles. This handful also experienced great persecutions for their beliefs including martyrdom. All of this was done at a great, personal expense of God. He called them all his friends...Jesus being his son.

So, when Jesus said that no one can come to the Father except by him...I can really understand why. A person with a prudent reasoning then can come to the conclusion that God really has done more than enough to remind mankind of his existance and his character it is now incumbant upon me to try (although I and He both know that I will fail miserably) to show Him that I heard, understand, and love Him back for all that He has done for my benefit.

 

[salida]

Do you consider yourself a good person? If so, by what standard are you using? You may want to visit http://www.livingwaters.com/good/ Have you kept all 10 Commandments all the time, 100% of the time? Only Jesus has - no one else. This is why mankind needs a Lord and Savior. We are saved through grace (a gift) through faith. Other religions will tell you it takes works to get to heaven only. God isn't impressed and doesn't need our works but needs first our heart. After one accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then the works are a byproduct of saving faith. But works alone doesn't save if there is no heart there- thus, going through the motions alone doesn't cut it.

Also, you say your friend is trying to talk you into it? Nobody gets talked into christianity as its a spiritual decision not by intellect. Even though I'm a christian by intellect secondly and first for spiritual reasons.

What do you think is inconsistent? I would love to hear about this because I have found none. Feel free to email also. Some more info. below on bible. In fact, the bible is the most accurate book in the world and could only be written by God-no other book and/or religious book does this at all.

Biblical Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)

Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible

- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.

-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10

Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)

Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[Wolfmane]

Thank you all for your input. I am glad you are willing to talk with me about these things. I hope that I don't put anyone off, or offend anyone. It certainly isn't my intention. I just have questions, and have for a long time, and am looking ideas to help me come to some answers. Or more questions if needed

thanks Wolf

So, God gave us rules to follow...7 Sins/Virtues, 10 Commandments, The Golden Rule, and stories that show what He expects and what He believes as good and right behavior, like Garden of Eden, Cain and Abel. But man continued to disobey these and so he sent Jesus, his son, to die for us because we couldn't follow these rules?

By accepting that Jesus died for our sins, we are washed clean of those sins and guatenteed a place in Heaven?

I don't really see how things changed. We still have the rules to obey. God still expects us to follow the rules. He knows we aren't perfect and so why can't he simply forgive us if we ask for it when we break the rules? By accepting Jesus we don't have to ask for forgiveness? We just know that we have accepted Jesus and it's ok that we broke the rule?

My friend isn't trying to talk me into believing, he is offering to answer my questions, and offering his point of view. But it's only one point of view so that's why I came here to ask questions.

Salida, I looked at the verses you recommended, but I'm not sure I understand what you were offering with them.

Inconsistencies that I see are in things like the Catholic belief in the need for Confession. That men decided what books would be considered for the biblical canon, how can the books of the Apocrypha be discounted? In fact depending on which Christian religion you follow there are different canon, how can that be? Who makes these decisions? Which one is right?

Wolf

 

[JohnDB]

For the most part there is what you would call "mainstream Christianity".
Where most of this comes from starts with the five books of Moses. (The first five in the Bible)
Of these five books there is very little differentiation of anyone except a few extremists who have changed things in a very inconsistant pattern of translation into English or other languages so that their views can be promoted.

After that there was a series of tests that the Levites used for any further books written to be accepted as Cannon. The medium that these books (or any book) was written on was exhorbitantly expensive for centuries. Your average copy of any book of the bible would cost close to a full years salary at a high point and the whole Old Testament a years salary at a low point. Today you can get a copy of the New and Old Testaments given to you freely by someone. (Things have changed drastically over the years).
Great care has been taken to ensure that the tests administered to the texts weren't compromised. The "Cannon" that we have today passes some extremely difficult tests...and they pass with flying colors.
There are several books out that document how the bible we have today is accurate and relevant. "How we got the Bible" and etc. Reading any one of these by a reputable publishing company would be an excellent choice if there is ever any question as to the authenticity or reliability of the Bible that you hold in your hands.

I have and can use the Catholic's bible...especially their "New Jerusalem Bible".
Or the NIV, NASB, and NKJV. All of these are readily acceptable translations by most denominations out there and are easily read. (Understanding though is another can of soup which is a reason for the many denominations)

The rules that you are talking about aren't so hard and fast. There are a couple that are hard and fast though. First rule which as well points to the second rule is that we are to Love God with everything that is within us...which also means that we love our fellow man because God does. What and how you specifically can and will express this love I can't say. I don't know your heart (where your logic, emotions, and actions come together) but I do know that God does know your abilities and heart. It is said that this is where God will write his laws for each and every individual...I. E. a concience. This is a much better system by with which God rules us by.
For example: If someone was chasing an innocent person in order to harm them and you were specifically asked to inform the chaser of the innocence's whereabouts you are now given the freedom to lie as much as needed to ensure their safety. Before the days of the New Coventant, the sin of lying would have been almost to an unforgiveable level.
The Old Testament Law is good (was instituted for our benefit) but it was instituted and Israel attempted at times to live by it (They regularly failed) in order for them to finally understand that they did need a savior to restore the relationship between God and man. (We are forever prone to believing that our behavior (law following) will restore our relationship and that God likes us because we follow the Old Testament Law. Many of us follow many of the principles of the Old Testament Law not because we have to but because we want to...as an extention of our Love for God and because these laws were given to us for our benefit as a people. We don't ever think that we will gain entrance into heaven though for our "Law Following" behaviors though.

One of the lessons that Genesis teaches us is that everything reproduces after it's own kind. Orange trees don't produce apples or bananas...they produce oranges. Monkeys don't reproduce donkeys...they reproduce more monkeys. Likewise sinful man reproduces more sinful men and not a perfect man like Adam was before he sinned. We, now, some six thousand years (a guess) after the first sinful man it is a wonder that we are still in existance...that we haven't murdered each other off by this point.
How long this earth will continue is a really good question. The answer to which only God in Heaven really knows.

 

[Wolfmane]

So God gave us free will and now he is testing us? To see if we are on His side? That sounds like a game, and not very loving. Also, we weren't really "given" free will. Adam and Eve were created perfect, weren't they? Satan, in the form of the serpent, had to "trick" Eve into taking the fruit. This set into motion free will I guess, but it seems that it wasn't in Gods original plan, or was it? And the way things worked out in the garden were actually part of the plan. I'm very confused.

Also, if we have free will, why did God feel it necessary to clean the earth during the great flood of Noah? If man was doing what he had been made to do, why destroy all that? Even if every man falls into wickedness, that is the choice of man to be made isn't it?

I've read that whatever God does with a person, or soul, or people is right. But if we have true free will, and all men turn away from God, then isn't this also right?

As to the example of encountering a man, who is chasing another person with intent to do harm to them, and my being ok to lie if I know where that person is. I could also tell the man, "I know where this person is and I will not tell you, I will not help you, and in fact I will ask you to leave to now or I will intercede in this matter." That is not lying, and seems a right thing to do also.

Moses didn't know of Jesus, nor did any of those that were with him. I would however expect that they were not denied entrance into Heaven. So, they would have expected to enter the Kingdom of God based on what? Their following of his laws and commands? Or was there something else? What changed? Why were the laws no longer enough for us to abide by? Why the need to have Jesus come here and say "You do not follow these laws, very well, some of you. Not at all others. So, because you seem unable and unwilling to follow the laws, I am here, and those that accept me, will be able to enter the Kingdom of God even though they will continue to fall short of following the laws of God." Why was this necessary?

 

[Maranatha27]

Yes, as a christian I believe that Christ is the only way to enter eternal life.

 

[JohnDB]

God doesn't test the vast majority of mankind. When He did it was for the benefit of the person being tested. (God already knew what the outcome would be) There was very few cases of that in scripture.

As far as free will goes. I can make this computer say that it loves me but the effect of that love stated is worthless. My adult child or another adult saying it to me is quite a different thing altogether.

As I stated before man is sinful. He often goes awry. (as in the case of the flood)
And since our lives belong to God (He is the Creator of all life) He can do with them as He sees fit...God is also infinately Good as well. (holy) Because of God's holiness He created the separation between himself and us so that we could exist.

As far as the lying to protect the innocent...when the person chasing the innocent is a German Nazi soldier during WWII and you have Jews hidden in your closet your answer will get both of you killed. Or in the case of Pharaoh and the midwives not only will the Hebrew babies be killed but so will the midwives. Lying at that point is really the best possible thing to do and the least of all evils. Choosing to die a martyr's death is the worst possible choice as no good will be served by doing so.

And as far as Moses knowing about Jesus...
You are mistaken. Moses wrote the first five books in the Bible and roughly a couple of dozen very clear prophesies about Him. The Old Testament is all about the coming messiah and the reason for the need for him. Jesus is the Greek name for Joshua...which was what Moses was told to name as his successor. (his name was something else before) This was done as one of a multitude of prophesies about the coming messiah.

There was a changing of the Covenant with those that wish to be of God's people. As to how a person should behave. God didn't change...just the understanding of the majority of God's people did. (man is always missing the mark...literal definition of sin)

Best efforts are required for entrance into heaven. God knows the difference between your best efforts and half hearted ones...I, nor anyone else, knows what exactly your best efforts are. (the new laws are written on our hearts and not paper)
In the Old Testament faith in the coming messiah (which was what all of the Old Testament sacrifices and Law following was about) was what gained them entrance into Heaven. Not the Law following in and of itself.

 

[Wolfmane]

We don't know the mind of God, except as he has revealed himself to us. It is man's job to follow the laws of God...so, if God feels it right to keep us alive then he will, but if he decides it is our time, then that is right also.

Saint Joan escaped from her prison, broke her foot jumping forty or so feet to the ground. However, she realized that it was HER will to be free and not God's will and returned to the prison. I don't think anyone chooses to be a martyr.

 

[jade eyes]

Just fyi the 7 Deadly Sins are never mentioned in the Bible in that, sin number 1 is gluttony, sin number two is lust ect ect. All of those are sins yes, but they are not "put" in the way they are in Dante's Inferno.

You ask what changed and why Jesus. We know that God has decided to reveal things about Himself through the Bible. From the Bible we learn that God is SACRAMENTAL in His nature. A SACRAMENT is an ACT of God toward man that is instituted by God and commanded for us to observe. It is a Holy action with visible/material elements that are EXTERNAL signs of the INTERNAL blessings, intents which are invisible. Heres an example. Moses lifted his staff over the water to part the Red Sea. The external visible physical staff and the internal love and belief in God of Moses which the Holy Spirit caused to part the water. Make sense? Another example, more recent, The Lords Supper. A visible element, bread, wine and consuming it. Invisible because of your true belief in the power of what this does, the Holy Spirit takes ACTION which is invisible. Make sense? So God is Sacramental in nature. In other word we have to DO something as our way of outwardly proving we believe. Basically its walking the walk and not just talking the talk. Where am I going with this? You will see. So hes sacramental and also demands SACRAFICES.

Why Jesus? Well in the old days, people had to sacrafice animals and sometimes nuts/berries things like that to The Lord to effectively wash away thier sins. There were very strict rules about what to do on this. God demands sacrafice and is sacramental because he is perfectly JUST. He dispenses JUSTICE perfectly. His perfect justice demands that unrighteousness/sin must be PUNISHED. Sacrafice is a way to basically escape the punishment. God gave a system to escape this out of love for us. He doesn't enjoy punishing but to be just He does it. Well what happened was eventually many people just started sacraficing things every time they did something wrong. They didn't have the invisible component of sacrafice which is the realizing what they did was wrong and turning from it. They just said, 'Hey lets do what we want, we can just sacrafice something and its ok." Well it doesn't work that way. The sacrafices LOST THEIR MEANING. So God sent Jesus down to earth. Jesus was/is perfect. Hes a 100% perfect nothing could ever be better God/Man. He CHOSE to sacrafice himself for all of man kinds sins. Once this happened, the sacraficial system ended. No other sacrafice could be greater than this obviously. Is God going to care about some ox when His only Son was sacraficed for everyones sin? Of course not. God's system demanded a perfect sacrafice for sin so no one ever has to be punished for them. Jesus was that sacrafice among many other things. So thats what changed. Jesus' sacrafice could NEVER be meaningless because he is part of the Holy Trinity and is so important.

As for it being ok for us to sin now, no. Just because we are forgiven for it does not mean its ok. We just don't get the punishment we deserve. (Hell)

As for your questions about Gods plan. Sin was not in Gods plan. But it happened because Lucifer was/is a prideful....so and so. Kinda like JohnDB said, people are not computers. God could of not given us free will and made us love him, but thats not only shallow but not even real love. If we don't have the choice to love him, then we are basically automitons.

The Flood: God was disgusted with all of the sin and disrespect people were showing to him, (many had already forgotten about him) so he poured out his perfect justice of judgement upon the earth. Again thats his call, not ours. It may not seem fair to us, but just get used to the fact that we are wrong and our worldly justice is just that, worldly, not Holy. As for this being a big game... well I guess you could say that about anything right? God doesn't play games, but even if he did, so what? What are you or I or anyone gonna do about it? If God came down to me and said "We are going to play a game, will you play?" Well I think you know what I would say after I bowed down. Thats not how it is though. Life is not a game, its a time where we can make choices. Some have more time that others, and it may not seem fair but humans can't really comprehend true justice unless they understand God. Does this help? I can elaborate if need be. If anyone disagrees I would like to hear why and about what and discuss.

 

[Wolfmane]

One of the things I find confusing is, you either need to have accept/believe, that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and that he died for your sins, and in excepting this you are washed clean of your sins, even as you commit them, and are allowed entrance into Heaven.
OR-
Some people however accept Christ without know it. What does mean? How can that be possible?
Either it is a concious acceptance or it isn't. I don't see how, if the Bible is the word of God that there can be any ways around what is written there. It's written, it's solid, I can pick it up, read and accept or not. And, if it isn't presented to me, then I haven't accepted it and therefore, I am going to Hell.

I don't see how you can have it both ways. Of course, I don't know the mind of God, and he can do whatever he wants being all powerful, and whatever he decides to do is right and just. Which means if he decides to change his mind, and shrugs, and says ah heck, you only have to have accepted Jesus as your savior if you had heard about him, and were able to read, and had a Bible given to you, to get into Heaven. But if you had neve heard of him, or couldn't read, or had never seen the Bible I'll let you in too.

However, as a Christian, it seems that you have the "rule book", it ought to be pretty clear cut as to what will or won't happen and how it will or won't happen. Which seems it should mean, You must accept that Christ died for you sins to enter Heaven, period. No accpetance, no Heaven. Never seen a Bible, too bad, never able to read, never heard of Jesus, oh well, no Heaven for you.

As to God not playing games I will refer you to the Book of Job. Please read it and get back to me on what exactly that is all about. Also, either God doesn't play games, and we shouldn't and can't entertain the idea that He might come down and play a game. Or, he does play games, and then I have to ask, what makes him any different than Zeus, or Loki? And I also, have to say that while you might bow down to a god like that, but I will not willing do so. A god that sees us as play thing for his or her amusement isn't a god I want to worship.

Now that would make it good idea to get out and spread the word everywhere. I don't know how you can have an "oppinion" in this matter, it is either or it isn't as it is written in the Bible.

 

[Wizzer]

...
Is the only way into Heaven through Christ?

Jesus claims that He and He alone will decide the destiny of each and every individual. If this is true (which I do believe) then He decides who gets in and who does not.

 

[Wizzer]

I struggle with what I see as inconssitancies in the Christian religion, and in religion itself. My friend does not have all the answers...

I also struggle with the inconsistancies I see in the Christian religion, but the inconsistencies are with different followers of Jesus, not with Jesus Himself. And none of us has all the answers: welcome to the world of not knowing everything.

 

[Wizzer]

I don't however understand how someone can accept Christ without knowing yet.

The bible seems to say that how we treat others reflects our basic acceptance (or rejection) of God. If you would read the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25, you might notice that the ones judged as sheep (accepted by Jesus at the judgement) were not necessarily "Christians" as in "knowing" Christ before. These were accepted by Jesus based upon their treatment of their fellow man. Those who mistreated their fellow man were rejected because of how they treated their fellow man. So how we live our lives is very important.

I believe that we should do unto other as we would have them do unto us. I believe that there are universal values that most men, of goodness, can agree on. You do not lie, cheat, steal, or murder. However, these things do not seem to be as important as accepting Christ as the savior of man.

I believe you might be having a problem with how the Christian "gospel" is often presented. This would take a great deal of time to discuss in detail, but I believe many, if not most, churches present the gospel incorrectly. It is often presented as accepting that Christ died for your sins; you accept this fact and you are "saved". I doubt much could be further from the truth. As Paul says in the book of Titus: "They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him." [Titus 1:16] Many try to present a "gospel" devoid of upright moral behavior. They do this because this is the only way they think one can be saved by "faith", but faith is more than just mental assent to a certain set of propositions - it is living according to those propositions! And those who refuse to live by them will not be accepted, as the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats illustrates.

 

[Wizzer]

...
Moses didn't know of Jesus, nor did any of those that were with him. I would however expect that they were not denied entrance into Heaven. So, they would have expected to enter the Kingdom of God based on what? Their following of his laws and commands? Or was there something else?

Moses is accepted by God because Moses lived by faith. Faith is the standard by which all are judged. Hebrews chaper 11 is called the "faith chapter." Please read it. So those who lived before Christ are judged by the same fundamental standard: the standard of faith.