Questions

[Wizzer]

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As to God not playing games I will refer you to the Book of Job. Please read it and get back to me on what exactly that is all about.
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I have read it, so what specifically do you have questions about?

 

[Wolfmane]

I appreciate all the responses and information a great deal, many thanks. Peace to all of you as well.

I believe what you say, Wizzer, about how the gospel is presented may be true. I see many that call themselves Christians disparaging others for their lifestyles with an almost glee. As though, being Christians, and being saved makes it ok to be abusive to others for their life choices. And it seems that too often the church is afraid of disuading them from such actioin, perpetuating it.

Wether we are talking about political choices, where this past election showed some very negative and ugly things being said by people on both sides. Or we are talking about the various differing religions, and hearing things said by Christians like "Those muslims" etc. Or the quoting of scripture to justify treating homosexuals as less than human. I'd like to believe that what God wants, and what Jesus would have done is to embrace these people of differing beliefs and lifestyles, welcoming them, and treating them as brothers that they might see that while differing in opinion about some things, humanity is still the important aspect of living on this planet with so many others.

My difficulty in believing in the church, which is where Jesus is mostly taught about, is that it seems self serving in many ways. It seems an establishment of man, for the benefit of the few over the many. I can too easily see how a man, like Christ, could be sacrificed, not by God, but by men for their own desire for wealth and power. I see much of that even now. I can believe in a divine presence, some power that has a plan, and worked to create all that is, putting the very stars in motion. However, the Christian religion seems very fractured, there are so many opinions as to what is the one way that isn't a ONE way, but many ways. This leads to confusion, and skepticism on my part. I will read those sections that you have mentioned, and appreciate the insight that others have offered with their posting of quotes.

As to the book of Job...
One post says that God does not play games, and that if he did, well, tough luck. I'd bow down and play if he suddenly appeared and asked me to. While I would likely bow before a god, it would be as before a tyrant, and not out of love for any god that would consider its creations little more than amusing toys. And I would not want to bow before, nor worship such a god. If the Christian God does not play games, then we needn't even consider such situations, for he wouldn't do that.

That is why I mentioned the story of Job, because that seems like a bet was being made, in essence, a game being played. And it seems wrong. I understand what the story is teaching, but if we are talking about an actual event, I have reservations about the god depicted there.

 

[nhisname]

I have many questions that I'd like to discuss with anyone will to talk. I am looking for serious discussion about faith, religion, god, etc. I do not call myself a Christian, tho I do believe in a god or higher power. I have a very devout Christian friend who is trying hard to show me the light and save my soul by getting me to accept Christ. I struggle with what I see as inconssitancies in the Christian religion, and in religion itself. My friend does not have all the answers and so, to help broaden our conversations I have come here to seek the views of others on some of the topics that he and I discuss. Any feedback, comments, or questions will be appreciated.

Is the only way into Heaven through Christ?

Get an easy to read Bible and read the book of John in the new testament...God's word is the best place to start on your journey....good luck and God Bless

 

[jade eyes]

Wolf

"I'd like to believe that what God wants, and what Jesus would have done is to embrace these people of differing beliefs and lifestyles, welcoming them, and treating them as brothers that they might see that while differing in opinion about some things, humanity is still the important aspect of living on this planet with so many others."

This is what Jesus did. He never hated anyone with a different belief. His whole ministry was FOR people with differing beliefs and lifestyles. Jesus himself said love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. The second greatest is like it Love your neighbor as yourself. Yes your right, people and even entire churches fail to do that at times. Just because they don't do it every time does not make what Jesus said untrue.
Be careful though when you say differing in opinion. Please recall what I said about Christianity. We must and do agree on the MAJORS and we can agree to disagree on the minors and find out when we get to heaven. God could of chosen to make things much more clear with just a few more phrases but he didn't. Again, its His choice to make.
You say there are so many different opinions of Christians. First of all are the people who are disagreeing Christian or just saying so? Someone called Quaero posted a comment earlier from a "Christian Universalist" standpoint. That IS NOT a Christian view. Its false. The fact that it has the word Christian in it aggrevates me because it confuses people like you who are still trying to figure this out and make a decision. I'm not being judgemental I'm just speaking the truth. I guarantee you there are NO different opinions of the MAJORS of the actual true Christian denominations. This is because its not an opinion its a fact. Yes there is disagreements with the minors, but thats not a reason that should stop anyone from believing. If you can show me a faith that agrees on everything 100% I'd like to see it. Even people who witness something right before thier eyes still don't agree on what happened. Take it from me as someone who used to get statements from people about accidents for a living.


"My difficulty in believing in the church, which is where Jesus is mostly taught about, is that it seems self serving in many ways. It seems an establishment of man, for the benefit of the few over the many."

You shouldn't believe in the church. You should believe in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit and find a church that does the same thing. Your kind of grouping all the churches into one. What do you know of the churches? What the media decides to tell you. How many of these churches have you investigated or gone to? The media pretty much never reports anything positive about the church so I can see what you would think that. I GO to my church so I know what they preach and what they do first hand, and none of it is bashing gays, touching little kids or condeming people to damnation. I check what the Bible says and lo and behold its the same thing. Do I have questions? Yeah but on the major big stuff that is going to matter as far as me living my life the way Jesus says and getting into heaven, there is no confusion. My church is a group of people who have a love for Christ and each other. Do we make mistakes? Yeah, but we learn from it and improve. Just cause its a church does not make it of God. You have to compare what they preach against the Bible. I'm not saying my church has every answer but it answers the important issues so thats how I can know. Consequently the minors I agree with dead on as well, even though its not necessary for me to get into Heaven and do God's will. I know this is because the Holy Spirit guides me to the truth.

Job.

No it was not a game. I was the one who said if it was I would still bow down and play the game. This is because I have respect for God and his wisdom. Also either way, hes still God. Its not like theres other gods available to go follow anyway right? But really, what God says goes. I am no one to question that. People may see it as a game but its not. Job was not an "amusing toy." He was a person made in God's image. God took no pleasure in seeing Job, his creation suffer. God was not saying ha ha Satan your wrong. He was using his servant Job to show people through example that they CAN stick to thier beliefs if thier faith/trust is strong enough. God even showed his appreciation for Job by blessing him with much more than we he had before this ordeal.

Peace bro.

 

[Wizzer]

I appreciate all the responses and information a great deal, many thanks. Peace to all of you as well.

I believe what you say, Wizzer, about how the gospel is presented may be true. I see many that call themselves Christians disparaging others for their lifestyles with an almost glee. As though, being Christians, and being saved makes it ok to be abusive to others for their life choices. And it seems that too often the church is afraid of disuading them from such actioin, perpetuating it.

Wether we are talking about political choices, where this past election showed some very negative and ugly things being said by people on both sides. Or we are talking about the various differing religions, and hearing things said by Christians like "Those muslims" etc. Or the quoting of scripture to justify treating homosexuals as less than human. I'd like to believe that what God wants, and what Jesus would have done is to embrace these people of differing beliefs and lifestyles, welcoming them, and treating them as brothers that they might see that while differing in opinion about some things, humanity is still the important aspect of living on this planet with so many others.

Hello Wolfmane,

Bear with me while I try to find the right words. As I see it, Jesus came to explain the true way to God, and to pay the penalty for all of humanity. So, whereas I do believe Jesus does call out to all humanity, He does so on His terms. And His terms are not negotiable. This means that He defines what is acceptable and what is not. There are a lot of so-called churches which tolerate almost any behavior. But Jesus Himself preached a message of repentance: that men must repent and turn from their sinful way, or bear the judgement which will eventually fall upon those who remain disobedient. Now while some may carry an extremely judgmental attitude, many others are far too permissive. For instance, Jesus would have preached repentance to homosexuals, but He would not have turned a blind eye to their sin. If we are truly seeking God, then we must allow Him to be Himself, and not try to turn Him into what we want Him to be. This means we should not put words into His mouth that He did not say.

My difficulty in believing in the church, which is where Jesus is mostly taught about, is that it seems self serving in many ways. It seems an establishment of man, for the benefit of the few over the many. I can too easily see how a man, like Christ, could be sacrificed, not by God, but by men for their own desire for wealth and power. I see much of that even now. I can believe in a divine presence, some power that has a plan, and worked to create all that is, putting the very stars in motion. However, the Christian religion seems very fractured, there are so many opinions as to what is the one way that isn't a ONE way, but many ways. This leads to confusion, and skepticism on my part. I will read those sections that you have mentioned, and appreciate the insight that others have offered with their posting of quotes.

Yes, most churches have their fair share of problems: control, manipulation, false doctrine, etc. Most churches are a mixture of good and bad. But Jesus Himself was not "fractured", as you used the term, even though most (if not all) Christians and churches are. Don’t allow the imperfections in most churches and followers to come between you and God. I myself had to deal with this very same issue many years ago, and I still have to deal with it on a regular basis. The one true way is to be a follower of Christ. Many will argue as to what exactly that means. But you should not let that stop you from reading the bible for yourself and drawing your own conclusions. If the bible is the word of God, then He put it here to be read.

As to the book of Job...
One post says that God does not play games, and that if he did, well, tough luck. I'd bow down and play if he suddenly appeared and asked me to. While I would likely bow before a god, it would be as before a tyrant, and not out of love for any god that would consider its creations little more than amusing toys. And I would not want to bow before, nor worship such a god. If the Christian God does not play games, then we needn't even consider such situations, for he wouldn't do that.

That is why I mentioned the story of Job, because that seems like a bet was being made, in essence, a game being played. And it seems wrong. I understand what the story is teaching, but if we are talking about an actual event, I have reservations about the god depicted there.

Concerning the Book of Job, I take this story literally, as in it really happened. If it was a game, then it is called the game of life. Read the first two chapters of Job carefully. Job, as far as we know, never had access to this information. What God desires is for men (and women) to believe in Him and to remain faithful to Him, even in the face of adversity. This test was more than just a single test of faithfulness, it was an opportunity for God to show Satan that there are men who will remain faithful even as their world crashes in around them. As Satan implied, it is easy to believe and be faithful when all is well, but when things get rough, that is when true faith is revealed. This book was recorded so that all could learn from it. This book may deal with the single hardest topic in the bible: why does God allow suffering in this world, even to good people? The answer is that God does not have to give an answer. He is God, and for His own purposes He can and does allow suffering to happen. I myself suffered much this last year. Having lymphoma/leukemia is not fun. Last year at this time I was in severe physical pain. And yes, I got angry with God, but I did not turn from Him. Life can be just plain tough some times, but God owes no man an explanation. This is perhaps the hardest lesson to learn. I am still learning. Job came out a winner; you can too.