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Pope, King of the world?

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JacktheCatholic

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The way the church handled the pedophile case most certainly can be...Because they failed to follow discipline guides layed out throughout scripture.

You are equating a few men, even though shephards, with that of the whole church and it's teachings. That is exactly what I was saying with Judas Iscariot being the representation of all Christianity.

I agree that some Bishops did not act as they should have. I agree that some priests were and maybe still are very wicked. But it does not stand to reason to condemn the whole for the bad actions of only a small part. At most I would say something needed to be fixed. In that case it was. The Catholic Church even had a third party come and evaluate it's process now to avoid situations like we had we the pedophile priests and they were rated very high.

You do not have that with any other church today. I would even say that these other churchs have a plank in their eye they need to remove before suggesting how the Catholic Church and it's members act.


BUT you are not addressing the theology of the Church when you detract with a priest that is a pedophile and the poor handling by a Bishop.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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JP quoted unam in the last decade and made no adjustment to what it said/meant.


It has been explained to you and others what it means. The last time I expressed the proper meaning I was ridiculed as calling you and others that are not Catholic as being Catholic. Sorry if the correct reading bothers the sensibilities of us that hate Catholcism or just reject it. But we are reading from a Catholic document and not one of Yours so you must use the Catholic terminology of the document.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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:hug: What translation are you using? I highly recommend this interlinear both for Reve and Daniel.....Best to download to use the more advanced search features. Wish they had one like this for the LXX OT......

http://www.scripture4all.org/


I am not studying the translation from any greek or latin text. Instead it is in English and already translated and I believe it is using a copy that reflects both Greek and Latin translations for agreement and accuracy.

I will check later if you wish?
 
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katholikos

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Peter and the Papacy



There is ample evidence in the New Testament that Peter was first in authority among the apostles. Whenever they were named, Peter headed the list (Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13); sometimes the apostles were referred to as "Peter and those who were with him" (Luke 9:32). Peter was the one who generally spoke for the apostles (Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69), and he figured in many of the most dramatic scenes (Matt. 14:28-32, Matt. 17:24-27, Mark 10:23-28). On Pentecost it was Peter who first preached to the crowds (Acts 2:14-40), and he worked the first healing in the Church age (Acts 3:6-7). It is Peter’s faith that will strengthen his brethren (Luke 22:32) and Peter is given Christ’s flock to shepherd (John 21:17). An angel was sent to announce the resurrection to Peter (Mark 16:7), and the risen Christ first appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34). He headed the meeting that elected Matthias to replace Judas (Acts 1:13-26), and he received the first converts (Acts 2:41). He inflicted the first punishment (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic (Acts 8:18-23). He led the first council in Jerusalem (Acts 15), and announced the first dogmatic decision (Acts 15:7-11). It was to Peter that the revelation came that Gentiles were to be baptized and accepted as Christians (Acts 10:46-48).


Peter the Rock


Peter’s preeminent position among the apostles was symbolized at the very beginning of his relationship with Christ. At their first meeting, Christ told Simon that his name would thereafter be Peter, which translates as "Rock" (John 1:42). The startling thing was that—aside from the single time that Abraham is called a "rock" (Hebrew: Tsur; Aramaic: Kepha) in Isaiah 51:1-2—in the Old Testament only God was called a rock. The word rock was not used as a proper name in the ancient world. If you were to turn to a companion and say, "From now on your name is Asparagus," people would wonder: Why Asparagus? What is the meaning of it? What does it signify? Indeed, why call Simon the fisherman "Rock"? Christ was not given to meaningless gestures, and neither were the Jews as a whole when it came to names. Giving a new name meant that the status of the person was changed, as when Abram’s name was changed to Abraham (Gen.17:5), Jacob’s to Israel (Gen. 32:28), Eliakim’s to Joakim (2 Kgs. 23:34), or the names of the four Hebrew youths—Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah to Belteshazzar, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (Dan. 1:6-7). But no Jew had ever been called "Rock." The Jews would give other names taken from nature, such as Deborah ("bee," Gen. 35:8), and Rachel ("ewe," Gen. 29:16), but never "Rock." In the New Testament James and John were nicknamed Boanerges, meaning "Sons of Thunder," by Christ, but that was never regularly used in place of their original names, and it certainly was not given as a new name. But in the case of Simon-bar-Jonah, his new name Kephas (Greek: Petros) definitely replaced the old.

(Staff Edit)
Link to the article is HERE.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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JacktheCatholic

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LittleLambofJesus

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Unam Sanctum is a bit redundant... ;) :D
It is all "latin" to me ^_^

Reve 9:11 and they are having on them a king, the messenger of the abyss, name to him to-Hebrew, abaddwn <3> and in the Greecian name he is having apo-lluwn <623>. [Exodus 12:23/Luke 21:28]
 
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JacktheCatholic

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It is all "latin" to me ^_^

Reve 9:11 and they are having on them a king, the messenger of the abyss, name to him to-Hebrew, abaddwn <3> and in the Greecian name he is having apo-lluwn <623>. [Exodus 12:23/Luke 21:28]

LOL ^_^

Funny guy... :D
 
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Uphill Battle

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Peter and the Papacy



There is ample evidence in the New Testament that Peter was first in authority among the apostles. Whenever they were named, Peter headed the list (Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13); sometimes the apostles were referred to as "Peter and those who were with him" (Luke 9:32). Peter was the one who generally spoke for the apostles (Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69), and he figured in many of the most dramatic scenes (Matt. 14:28-32, Matt. 17:24-27, Mark 10:23-28). On Pentecost it was Peter who first preached to the crowds (Acts 2:14-40), and he worked the first healing in the Church age (Acts 3:6-7). It is Peter’s faith that will strengthen his brethren (Luke 22:32) and Peter is given Christ’s flock to shepherd (John 21:17). An angel was sent to announce the resurrection to Peter (Mark 16:7), and the risen Christ first appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34). He headed the meeting that elected Matthias to replace Judas (Acts 1:13-26), and he received the first converts (Acts 2:41). He inflicted the first punishment (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic (Acts 8:18-23). He led the first council in Jerusalem (Acts 15), and announced the first dogmatic decision (Acts 15:7-11). It was to Peter that the revelation came that Gentiles were to be baptized and accepted as Christians (Acts 10:46-48).


Peter the Rock


Peter’s preeminent position among the apostles was symbolized at the very beginning of his relationship with Christ. At their first meeting, Christ told Simon that his name would thereafter be Peter, which translates as "Rock" (John 1:42). The startling thing was that—aside from the single time that Abraham is called a "rock" (Hebrew: Tsur; Aramaic: Kepha) in Isaiah 51:1-2—in the Old Testament only God was called a rock. The word rock was not used as a proper name in the ancient world. If you were to turn to a companion and say, "From now on your name is Asparagus," people would wonder: Why Asparagus? What is the meaning of it? What does it signify? Indeed, why call Simon the fisherman "Rock"? Christ was not given to meaningless gestures, and neither were the Jews as a whole when it came to names. Giving a new name meant that the status of the person was changed, as when Abram’s name was changed to Abraham (Gen.17:5), Jacob’s to Israel (Gen. 32:28), Eliakim’s to Joakim (2 Kgs. 23:34), or the names of the four Hebrew youths—Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah to Belteshazzar, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (Dan. 1:6-7). But no Jew had ever been called "Rock." The Jews would give other names taken from nature, such as Deborah ("bee," Gen. 35:8), and Rachel ("ewe," Gen. 29:16), but never "Rock." In the New Testament James and John were nicknamed Boanerges, meaning "Sons of Thunder," by Christ, but that was never regularly used in place of their original names, and it certainly was not given as a new name. But in the case of Simon-bar-Jonah, his new name Kephas (Greek: Petros) definitely replaced the old.


Look at the scene


Not only was there significance in Simon being given a new and unusual name, but the place where Jesus solemnly conferred it upon Peter was also important. It happened when "Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi" (Matt. 16:13), a city that Philip the Tetrarch built and named in honor of Caesar Augustus, who had died in A.D. 14. The city lay near cascades in the Jordan River and near a gigantic wall of rock, a wall about 200 feet high and 500 feet long, which is part of the southern foothills of Mount Hermon. The city no longer exists, but its ruins are near the small Arab town of Banias; and at the base of the rock wall may be found what is left of one of the springs that fed the Jordan. It was here that Jesus pointed to Simon and said, "You are Peter" (Matt. 16:18).

The significance of the event must have been clear to the other apostles. As devout Jews they knew at once that the location was meant to emphasize the importance of what was being done. None complained of Simon being singled out for this honor; and in the rest of the New Testament he is called by his new name, while James and John remain just James and John, not Boanerges.


Promises to Peter


When he first saw Simon, "Jesus looked at him, and said, ‘So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas (which means Peter)’" (John 1:42). The word Cephas is merely the transliteration of the Aramaic Kepha into Greek. Later, after Peter and the other disciples had been with Christ for some time, they went to Caesarea Philippi, where Peter made his profession of faith: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16:16). Jesus told him that this truth was specially revealed to him, and then he solemnly reiterated: "And I tell you, you are Peter" (Matt. 16:18). To this was added the promise that the Church would be founded, in some way, on Peter (Matt. 16:18).

Then two important things were told the apostle. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16:19). Here Peter was singled out for the authority that provides for the forgiveness of sins and the making of disciplinary rules. Later the apostles as a whole would be given similar power [Matt.18:18], but here Peter received it in a special sense.

Peter alone was promised something else also: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 16:19). In ancient times, keys were the hallmark of authority. A walled city might have one great gate; and that gate had one great lock, worked by one great key. To be given the key to the city—an honor that exists even today, though its import is lost—meant to be given free access to and authority over the city. The city to which Peter was given the keys was the heavenly city itself. This symbolism for authority is used elsewhere in the Bible (Is. 22:22, Rev. 1:18).

Finally, after the resurrection, Jesus appeared to his disciples and asked Peter three times, "Do you love me?" (John 21:15-17). In repentance for his threefold denial, Peter gave a threefold affirmation of love. Then Christ, the Good Shepherd (John 10:11, 14), gave Peter the authority he earlier had promised: "Feed my sheep" (John 21:17). This specifically included the other apostles, since Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love me more than these?" (John 21:15), the word "these" referring to the other apostles who were present (John 21:2). Thus was completed the prediction made just before Jesus and his followers went for the last time to the Mount of Olives.

Immediately before his denials were predicted, Peter was told, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again [after the denials], strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31-32). It was Peter who Christ prayed would have faith that would not fail and that would be a guide for the others; and his prayer, being perfectly efficacious, was sure to be fulfilled.


Who is the rock?


Now take a closer look at the key verse: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church" (Matt. 16:18). Disputes about this passage have always been related to the meaning of the term "rock." To whom, or to what, does it refer? Since Simon’s new name of Peter itself means rock, the sentence could be rewritten as: "You are Rock and upon this rock I will build my Church." The play on words seems obvious, but commentators wishing to avoid what follows from this—namely the establishment of the papacy—have suggested that the word rock could not refer to Peter but must refer to his profession of faith or to Christ.

From the grammatical point of view, the phrase "this rock" must relate back to the closest noun. Peter’s profession of faith ("You are the Christ, the Son of the living God") is two verses earlier, while his name, a proper noun, is in the immediately preceding clause.

As an analogy, consider this artificial sentence: "I have a car and a truck, and it is blue." Which is blue? The truck, because that is the noun closest to the pronoun "it." This is all the more clear if the reference to the car is two sentences earlier, as the reference to Peter’s profession is two sentences earlier than the term rock.


Another alternative


The previous argument also settles the question of whether the word refers to Christ himself, since he is mentioned within the profession of faith. The fact that he is elsewhere, by a different metaphor, called the cornerstone (Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:4-8) does not disprove that here Peter is the foundation. Christ is naturally the principal and, since he will be returning to heaven, the invisible foundation of the Church that he will establish; but Peter is named by him as the secondary and, because he and his successors will remain on earth, the visible foundation. Peter can be a foundation only because Christ is the cornerstone.

In fact, the New Testament contains five different metaphors for the foundation of the Church (Matt. 16:18, 1 Cor. 3:11, Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:5-6, Rev. 21:14). One cannot take a single metaphor from a single passage and use it to twist the plain meaning of other passages. Rather, one must respect and harmonize the different passages, for the Church can be described as having different foundations since the word foundation can be used in different senses.


Look at the Aramaic


Opponents of the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18 sometimes argue that in the Greek text the name of the apostle is Petros, while "rock" is rendered as petra. They claim that the former refers to a small stone, while the latter refers to a massive rock; so, if Peter was meant to be the massive rock, why isn’t his name Petra?

Note that Christ did not speak to the disciples in Greek. He spoke Aramaic, the common language of Palestine at that time. In that language the word for rock is kepha, which is what Jesus called him in everyday speech (note that in John 1:42 he was told, "You will be called Cephas"). What Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 was: "You are Kepha, and upon this kepha I will build my Church."

When Matthew’s Gospel was translated from the original Aramaic to Greek, there arose a problem which did not confront the evangelist when he first composed his account of Christ’s life. In Aramaic the word kepha has the same ending whether it refers to a rock or is used as a man’s name. In Greek, though, the word for rock, petra, is feminine in gender. The translator could use it for the second appearance of kepha in the sentence, but not for the first because it would be inappropriate to give a man a feminine name. So he put a masculine ending on it, and hence Peter became Petros.

Furthermore, the premise of the argument against Peter being the rock is simply false. In first century Greek the words petros and petra were synonyms. They had previously possessed the meanings of "small stone" and "large rock" in some early Greek poetry, but by the first century this distinction was gone, as Protestant Bible scholars admit (see D. A. Carson’s remarks on this passage in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids: Zondervan Books]).

Some of the effect of Christ’s play on words was lost when his statement was translated from the Aramaic into Greek, but that was the best that could be done in Greek. In English, like Aramaic, there is no problem with endings; so an English rendition could read: "You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church."

Consider another point: If the rock really did refer to Christ (as some claim, based on 1 Cor. 10:4, "and the Rock was Christ" though the rock there was a literal, physical rock), why did Matthew leave the passage as it was? In the original Aramaic, and in the English which is a closer parallel to it than is the Greek, the passage is clear enough. Matthew must have realized that his readers would conclude the obvious from "Rock . . . rock."

If he meant Christ to be understood as the rock, why didn’t he say so? Why did he take a chance and leave it up to Paul to write a clarifying text? This presumes, of course, that 1 Corinthians was written after Matthew’s Gospel; if it came first, it could not have been written to clarify it.

The reason, of course, is that Matthew knew full well that what the sentence seemed to say was just what it really was saying. It was Simon, weak as he was, who was chosen to become the rock and thus the first link in the chain of the papacy.


when cutting and pasting, you're supposed to attribute. :thumbsup:
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Pastor Tom G

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Wow this post sure got a lot of attention! It's fascinating to me how divided the church really is. As the day draws near for our Lord's return I believe she (the church) will come together as a unified bride. We all have a choice as to how that happens. Here in the Reno-Sparks area of northern Nevada we have a weekly prayer meeting where pastors from different denominations meet for lunch and prayer...it's growing and it is unifying the body of Christ.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Wow this post sure got a lot of attention! It's fascinating to me how divided the church really is. As the day draws near for our Lord's return I believe she (the church) will come together as a unified bride. We all have a choice as to how that happens. Here in the Reno-Sparks area of northern Nevada we have a weekly prayer meeting where pastors from different denominations meet for lunch and prayer...it's growing and it is unifying the body of Christ.


I pray for Unity too. To be truly Catholic (or unified and universal). :crossrc:

Our Pope has meetings with many in regards to Unity and has worked with Protestant churches to do just that.

As a Catholic we believe the Great Tribulation is something we have been living for many centuries since Christ rose from the dead.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I pray for Unity too. To be truly Catholic (or unified and universal). :crossrc:

Our Pope has meetings with many in regards to Unity and has worked with Protestant churches to do just that.

As a Catholic we believe the Great Tribulation is something we have been living for many centuries since Christ rose from the dead.
:angel:

Daniel 12:1 And in the time, that, Miyka'el shall stand, the chief, the great, the one standing over sons of thy People.
And a Time of Tribulation/06869 tsarah/2347 qliyewv becomes, which not has-become from to become a Nation, until the Time, that. [Matt 24:21/Mark 13:19/Reve 7:14]

Matt 24:21 "For then shall be Tribulation/qliyiV <2347> Great, the such as not has become from beginning of world til of the now, neither not no may be becoming

Reve 7:14 And I have declared to Him "Lord! of me thou are aware". And He said to me "these are those coming out of the Tribulation/qliyewV <2347> the Great and they plunge the stoles of them and they whiten [*stoles of] them in the blood of the lambkin
 
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simonthezealot

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Our Pope has meetings with many in regards to Unity and has worked with Protestant churches to do just that.
Worked with Jack? Catholicism allows zero flexibility in its doctrine.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by JacktheCatholic Our Pope has meetings with many in regards to Unity and has worked with Protestant churches to do just that.
Worked with Jack? Catholicism allows zero flexibility in its doctrine.
I take that to mean bringing all those outside of Roman Catholicism "back to the fold" of the Roman Vatican and Papacy.
They are also trying to do that with the EO from what I understand. :wave: :hug:

Vatican Takes Step to Absorb Orthodox Church - Christian Forums
Vatican Takes Step to Absorb Orthodox Church
 
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Secundulus

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I take that to mean bringing all those outside of Roman Catholicism "back to the fold" of the Roman Vatican and Papacy.
They are also trying to do that with the EO from what I understand. :wave: :hug:

Vatican Takes Step to Absorb Orthodox Church - Christian Forums
Vatican Takes Step to Absorb Orthodox Church
I just got off my secret line with Rome and spoke to them about you resurrecting this thread.

You will be visited soon by black suited members of Opus Dei.

Be afraid. Be very afraid!:liturgy:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I just got off my secret line with Rome and spoke to them about you resurrecting this thread.

You will be visited soon by black suited members of Opus Dei.

Be afraid. Be very afraid!:liturgy:
Not as afraid as these folks :)

Reve 18:10 From afar having stood because of the fear/fobon <5401> of the torment of Her saying "woe! woe! the City the great Babylon the City the strong, that to-one/*in hour came the judging of Thee.
15 The merchants of these, the ones being rich from Her, from afar shall be standing because of the fear/fobon <5401> of the torment of Her lamenting and mourning,

5401. phobos fob'-os from a primary phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:--be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror. [Hebrew #02844]

02844 chath {khath} from 02865; TWOT - 784a; n m
AV - dread 1, broken 1, fear 1, dismayed 1; 4
1) fear, terror 2) shattered, dismayed 2a) shattered 2b) dismayed [Lxx Gk #5401. First time used in Gene 9:2]
 
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I pray for Unity too. To be truly Catholic (or unified and universal). :crossrc:

Our Pope has meetings with many in regards to Unity and has worked with Protestant churches to do just that.

As a Catholic we believe the Great Tribulation is something we have been living for many centuries since Christ rose from the dead.

Jack, the only unity the Pope would accept is for others to become in full union and conformity to the Catholic Church and its doctrines.
Dialogue does not equal worked with.

I just got off my secret line with Rome and spoke to them about you resurrecting this thread.

You will be visited soon by black suited members of Opus Dei.

Be afraid. Be very afraid!:liturgy:

:eek: oh no not Opus Dei

^_^
 
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