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Pope, King of the world?

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BrightCandle

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Sure that would be the safest path especially today. But its still not forbidden according to scripture.

Prior to getting saved I was able at times to control how much I drank when I wanted to.

I agree its best not to drink but there is no law against it. In order to take a stand against something we should have Biblical proof.

I'm amazed at the bravado of so many of the CF members who have posted on this thread. Look up these two texts (Mark 15:23 and Matt. 27:34), dealing with the final hours of Jesus' life when he was suffering on the cross at Calvary. The Jews had a custom that the Roman's permitted in that they would offer a fermented potion of vinegar and wine mixed together to deaden the pain and hours of agony of those who were crucified. Note in the texts mentioned above that Jesus refused to drink the fermented drink offered him. Why? Because he needed to keep his mind clear to be victorious in the final minutes of plan of salvation, the fate of the human race hung in the balance, and Jesus the last thing Jesus wanted to do was to get drunk! If he had done that we would all be lost!
 
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JacktheCatholic

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I'm amazed at the bravado of so many of the CF members who have posted on this thread. Look up these two texts (Mark 15:23 and Matt. 27:34), dealing with the final hours of Jesus' life when he was suffering on the cross at Calvary. The Jews had a custom that the Roman's permitted in that they would offer a fermented potion of vinegar and wine mixed together to deaden the pain and hours of agony of those who were crucified. Note in the texts mentioned above that Jesus refused to drink the fermented drink offered him. Why? Because he needed to keep his mind clear to be victorious in the final minutes of plan of salvation, the fate of the human race hung in the balance, and Jesus the last thing Jesus wanted to do was to get drunk! If he had done that we would all be lost!

I disagree.

If he had drank from this then he would have drank from the vine and compelted the 4th cup from the night before. That is why Jesus waited until he was gonna give up his soul that he finally drank from the vine.

So, not only does he drink from the vine that day but he had three cups the night before.
 
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Tu Es Petrus

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I disagree.

If he had drank from this then he would have drank from the vine and compelted the 4th cup from the night before. That is why Jesus waited until he was gonna give up his soul that he finally drank from the vine.

So, not only does he drink from the vine that day but he had three cups the night before.

That is correct. This whole event is in the Passover context: Jesus is the Passover Lamb, and a careful read of their Passover dinner the night before shows that they never drank the 4th cup. When Jesus finally DOES drink on the cross, He says "It is finished", meaning the Passover celebration from the night before is finished.
 
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Jesus suffered and died for the sins of mankind. When He cried it is finished the the payment for sins was finished. It all rested upon Christ the righteous for the unrighteous. This is why we read that He died once for all. When He rose from the dead He rose victorious.. Death could no longer hold His sheep for He had paid the full penalty for them. Sin,death, and the grave were conquered. Where is your sting o death? For in Christ we have eternal life. For we have the same Spirit in us that Rose Christ from the dead if indeed one is Christs sheep.
 
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simonthezealot

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No one gave an explanation or opinion to the fact that the bishop of Rome will not permit their members to interpret scripture outside of her guideline, how is this not to be considered controlling HOW His(God's) will is communicated to His created ones?

The LORD spoke in scripture...
Look[SIZE=+0] unto me, and be ye saved[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], all the ends[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] of the earth[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]: for I am God[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], and there is none else. [/SIZE]
Sounds a little different than the salvation picture painted by the bishop of Rome
 

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JacktheCatholic

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No one gave an explanation or opinion to the fact that the bishop of Rome will not permit their members to interpret scripture outside of her guideline, how is this not to be considered controlling HOW His(God's) will is communicated to His created ones?

As stated dozens of times previously, the Catholic Church is mystically connected to Jesus and is protected by Jesus in all the teachings. The Catholic Church has the Shephards that jesus appointed to guide and protect the flock and so only the Ctaholic Church can decide on matters of this nature. That is the Catholic theology and it is logical. As to whether you subscribe to this theology or another is an entirely different matter and affects the soundness of this theology none at all.
 
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simonthezealot

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As stated dozens of times previously, the Catholic Church is mystically connected to Jesus and is protected by Jesus in all the teachings. The Catholic Church has the Shephards that jesus appointed to guide and protect the flock and so only the Ctaholic Church can decide on matters of this nature. That is the Catholic theology and it is logical. As to whether you subscribe to this theology or another is an entirely different matter and affects the soundness of this theology none at all.
And therein lies my point that the church along with its head by her actions stands as a unit of power which claims by practice the equivelancy of power to God almighty, aka KING OF THE WORLD.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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And therein lies my point that the church along with its head by her actions stands as a unit of power which claims by practice the equivelancy of power to God almighty, aka KING OF THE WORLD.

The Catholic Church teaches that it's Head is Jesus.

Do not confuse your personal opinions with Catholic theology. Catholic theology is quite clear on this and no where does it teach the Pope is the King of the World or the Head of the Body. I can quote Dei Verbum and Humanae Vitae and Lumen Gentium as just some of the proofs of Catholic theology which says your view is not that of the Catholic Church.
 
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Trento

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No one gave an explanation or opinion to the fact that the bishop of Rome will not permit their members to interpret scripture outside of her guideline, how is this not to be considered controlling HOW His(God's) will is communicated to His created ones?

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all say the same thing; and there be no dissensions among you, but that you be perfectly united in one mind and in one judgment."
1Corinthians 1:10

Sounds just like St. Paul. :amen:
 
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As stated dozens of times previously, the Catholic Church is mystically connected to Jesus and is protected by Jesus in all the teachings. The Catholic Church has the Shephards that jesus appointed to guide and protect the flock and so only the Ctaholic Church can decide on matters of this nature. That is the Catholic theology and it is logical. As to whether you subscribe to this theology or another is an entirely different matter and affects the soundness of this theology none at all.
The mystery of the Gospel has been given and that is Christ in us the hope of Glory. It is not a mystery and it is not because one has the name Catholic. No where did Jesus say He would protect the CC. :) He said that He was the rock and that death and the grave would not overpower the Him. :) Which it did not. For Jesus Died and was put in the grave or tomb. But neither could contain Him for He rose victorious.. He is now the risen and Exalted King of all Kings.. He is Lord. :)
 
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"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all say the same thing; and there be no dissensions among you, but that you be perfectly united in one mind and in one judgment."
1Corinthians 1:10

Sounds just like St. Paul. :amen:
And we do... For we preach Christ and the cross. Not any particular assembly..
 
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JacktheCatholic

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The mystery of the Gospel has been given and that is Christ in us the hope of Glory. It is not a mystery and it is not because one has the name Catholic. No where did Jesus say He would protect the CC. :) He said that He was the rock and that death and the grave would not overpower the Him. :) Which it did not. For Jesus Died and was put in the grave or tomb. But neither could contain Him for He rose victorious.. He is now the risen and Exalted King of all Kings.. He is Lord. :)


You do realize this is the Theology area. :)
 
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Rick Otto

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Originally Posted by simonthezealot
No one gave an explanation or opinion to the fact that the bishop of Rome will not permit their members to interpret scripture outside of her guideline, how is this not to be considered controlling HOW His(God's) will is communicated to His created ones?


"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all say the same thing; and there be no dissensions among you, but that you be perfectly united in one mind and in one judgment."
1Corinthians 1:10

Sounds just like St. Paul. :amen:

Paul was addressing dissensions that were resulting in believers claiming to be following teachers instead of following Jesus. That is what we do when we claim our Christianity with an adjective in front of it.
That much becomes clear when you read the rest of the chapter:

10: Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11: For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12: Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13: Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14: I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15: Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16: And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18: For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19: For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20: Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21: For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22: For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24: But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25: Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26: For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28: And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30: But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
 
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simonthezealot

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The Catholic Church teaches that it's Head is Jesus.

Do not confuse your personal opinions with Catholic theology. Catholic theology is quite clear on this and no where does it teach the Pope is the King of the World or the Head of the Body. I can quote Dei Verbum and Humanae Vitae and Lumen Gentium as just some of the proofs of Catholic theology which says your view is not that of the Catholic Church.
But the actions of the bishop and church at Rome meant to control how God's will is communicated to His created ones flies in the face of your protest here.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by JacktheCatholic The Catholic Church teaches that it's Head is Jesus.
:thumbsup:

Ezekiel 37:22 And I make them to a-nation, One in land, in mountains of Israel. And a King, One, He shall become for all of them to a-King and not shall be further to two of Nations and not they shall be divided furthur to two of Kingdoms further

John 12:13 They got the branches of the palms, and came out meeting to Him, and clamored: "Hosanna, being blessed the one coming in name of Lord, the King of the Israel"
 
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JacktheCatholic

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And??? ^_^ This is part of theology.. :)

Your post seemed to show that you did not know this is Theology.

What is Theology to you?

It seems to differ from my understanding.

the·ol·o·gy Pronunciation: \th&#275;-&#712;ä-l&#601;-j&#275;\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural the·ol·o·gies Etymology: Middle English theologie, from Anglo-French, from Latin theologia, from Greek, from the- + -logia -logy Date: 14th century 1: the study of religious faith, practice, and experience ; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world2 a: a theological theory or system <Thomist theology> <a theology of atonement> b: a distinctive body of theological opinion <Catholic theology>3: a usually 4-year course of specialized religious training in a Roman Catholic major seminary
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theology
 
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Trento

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Originally Posted by simonthezealot
No one gave an explanation or opinion to the fact that the bishop of Rome will not permit their members to interpret scripture outside of her guideline, how is this not to be considered controlling HOW His(God's) will is communicated to His created ones?



Paul was addressing dissensions that were resulting in believers claiming to be following teachers instead of following Jesus. That is what we do when we claim our Christianity with an adjective in front of it.
That much becomes clear when you read the rest of the chapter:

10: Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11: For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12: Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13: Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
.


Yet, is that enough? Is that all that is required to be an orthodox Christian? Is that all the Apostles required? Well, not according to the Scriptures.


Acts 4:32: "The community of believers was of one heart and one mind ..."
1 Corinth 1:10: "I urge you, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose."
Philippians 1:27
: "...that you are standing firm in one Spirit, with one mind struggling together for the faith of the Gospel, not intimidated in any way by your opponents."
Philippians 2:2: "...complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking of one thing."
1 Peter 3:8: "Finally, all of you, be of one mind ..."

This last verse (1 Peter 3:8) is most significant when it comes to orthodoxy, since as 1 Peter 1:1 shows us the Apostle is not writing to merely one city-church, but to a great many city-churches in a total of five separated provinces of the Roman Empire! Therefore, Peter is indeed speaking in a universal sense.
One mind no doubt you might claim that it refers to the fundamentals.Scripture tells us a different tale when you read about the Nicolatians.

Revelation 2:6 and 2:15-16 both condemn this heretical Asian sect, which was centered at Ephesus.
Rev. 2:6: "But you have this in your favor: you hate the works of the Nicolatians, which I also hate." (note: This is Jesus speaking)
Rev. 2:15-16: "Likewise, you also have some people who hold to the teachings of the Nicolatians. Therefore, repent. Otherwise, I will come to you quickly and wage war against them with the sword of my mouth (i.e., the Word of God)."
So, from these verses, it is clear to see that the Nicolatians are NOT orthodox Christians. Rather, they are clearly depicted as heretics. But, why? Did the Nicolatians deny the "fundamentals" which Mama Z and others refer to? Well, let's take a look at what the Nicolatians really denied.

Nicolatians were, at first, an extremist sect which promoted asceticism and denied all earthly pleasures (including marriage), so as to "fight against the flesh." And, now that we know this, it becomes very clear who St. Paul is talking about in 1 Tim 4:1-5. Here, remember, Paul is writing to Timothy who is stationed at Ephesus (in Asia) -- the same city-church referred to in Revelation 2:6. And St. Paul writes:
"Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the Faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For, everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving, because it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer."
So, Paul is clearly talking about the Nicolatians here. And he backs this up by telling Timothy (in the very next verse: 1 Tim 4:6):
"If you will give these instructions to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished on the words of faith and of the sound teaching you have followed."
So, to be a Nicolatian was not to be an orthodox Christian. Because the Nicolatians denied marriage and earthly pleasures, they were "unsound," and had "turned away from the faith," being deceived by "demons." Paul clearly says this above.
Therefore, even though the Nicolatians never denied the "fundamentals," as invoked by Many here, they were still judged to be heretics by the standards of the Apostles. Even though they still accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they were not of "one mind" with the rest of the Church.
And so, by Apostolic standards, as presented in SCRIPTURE, many here are heterodox and mutually heretical. They are not "of one heart and one mind," as Scripture says the Church must be. They do not follow the principal set down by St. Paul in Ephesians 4:1-6:
"I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, striving to PRESERVE UNITY of the Spirit through the bond of peace: ONE Body and ONE Spirit, as you were also called to the ONE hope of your call; ONE Lord, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism; ONE God and Father of all, Who is over all and through all and in all."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the words of the Church historian Eusebius of Caesarea (drawing on St. Clement of Alexandria), here's "the scoop" on the Nicolatians:

Christian Unity and Orthodoxy -- Apolonio's Catholic Apologetics, Philosophy, Spirituality
"At this time the so-called sect of the Nicolaitans made its appearance and lasted for a very short time. Mention is made of it in the Apocalypse of John. They boasted that the author of their sect was Nicolaus (i.e., Nicholas of Antioch), one of the deacons who, with Stephen, were appointed by the Apostles for the purpose of ministering to the poor (Acts 6:5). Clement of Alexandria, in the third book of his Stromata (c. 190 A.D. ), relates the following things concerning him: 'They say that he had a beautiful wife, and after the Ascension of the Saviour, being accused by the Apostles of jealousy, he led her into their midst and gave permission to any one that wished to marry her. For they say that this was in accord with that saying of his, that one ought to 'abuse the flesh.' And those that have followed his heresy, imitating blindly and foolishly that which was done and said, commit fornication without shame. But I understand that Nicolaus had to do with no other woman than her to whom he was married, and that, so far as his children are concerned, his daughters continued in a state of virginity until old age, and his son remained undefiled. If this is so, when he brought his wife, whom he jealously loved, into the midst of the Apostles, he was evidently renouncing his passion; and when he used the expression, 'to abuse the flesh,' he was inculcating self-control in the face of those pleasures that are eagerly pursued. For I suppose that, in accordance with the command of the Saviour, he did not wish to serve two masters, pleasure and the Lord. But they say that [The Apostle] Matthias (Acts 1:26) also taught in the same manner that we ought to 'fight against' and 'abuse the flesh,' and not give way to it for the sake of pleasure, but strengthen the soul by faith and knowledge.' So much concerning those who then attempted to pervert the truth, but in less time than it has taken to tell, it became entirely extinct." (Eusebius of Caesarea, Historia Ecclesia, Book III, Chapter 29).
 
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JacktheCatholic

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But the actions of the bishop and church at Rome meant to control how God's will is communicated to His created ones flies in the face of your protest here.

Again you are protraying your personal view and not that of Catholicism.

Catholicism does not teach or practice any form of control over God.

So, if we stick to the facts through solid readings of the current documents from the Catholic Church we know that this view of yours is not shared by the Catholic Church in any form. It should be clear that you do not yet know the Theology of Catholicism with statements such as "Bishop... meant to control how God's will...".

I have already provided sources for proof such as Dei Verbum and Humanae Vitae and Lumen Gentium and will add the Catechism of the Catholic Church as printed in the 90s with Pope John Paul II approval. These sources will fully support what I have stated here.
 
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simonthezealot

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Again you are protraying your personal view and not that of Catholicism.

Catholicism does not teach or practice any form of control over God.

So, if we stick to the facts through solid readings of the current documents from the Catholic Church we know that this view of yours is not shared by the Catholic Church in any form. It should be clear that you do not yet know the Theology of Catholicism with statements such as "Bishop... meant to control how God's will...".
Jack, NOT control over God!!! control over the peoples reception of HIS will, to this you can NOT deny!
 
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