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Pope, King of the world?

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Rick Otto

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quote=Trento;50071593 In light of the above history, we can see the dispute between Boniface and Philip had nothing to do with "Protestants" (they did not exist), it had nothing to do with pagans or any non-Catholic as such.
That is nonsense. That is completely absurd on it's face. The statements in Unam Sanctum do not address a specific situation. It's statements are universaly inclusive and offer no such narrowing of context. Unam Sanctum is meant to address that situation & and any other that might follow, regardless of who didn't exist yet or who isn't specificaly named.


A non-Catholic CANNOT submit or be subject to the Pope, even if the person sincerely desired to obey the Pope in everything and believe all his teachings.
Nevertheless many non-Catholics were subject to Inquisitorial execution.

Only CATHOLICS can submit to the Pope since one CANNOT submit to the Pope without being a member of the visible One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Christ of whom the Pope is the visible head. And that is precisely the point Pope Boniface VIII is making.
A wonderfuly stated opinion completely without substantiation & resting on conjecture that belies the facts.

Here's the whole of Unam Sanctum. Any one can see it states the problem & solution in universal, not nation-specific perspective. Not one single mention of France, Boniface, or Philip.

UNAM SANCTAM (Promulgated November 18, 1302)
Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.
We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: 'Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.' [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23-24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: 'Feed my sheep' [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.' We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal. For when the Apostles say: 'Behold, here are two swords' [Lk 22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient. Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.
However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the Apostle said: 'There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God' [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other. For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries. Then, according to the order of the universe, all things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior. Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal. This we see very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the government even of things. For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the ecclesiastical power: 'Behold to-day I have placed you over nations, and over kingdoms' and the rest. Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: 'The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man' [1 Cor 2:15]. This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
 
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Tu Es Petrus

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Yes, yes... Unam Sanctum. We get it.

images
 
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Tu Es Petrus

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how many times will the issue be glazed over or answered unsatisfactorily?

the same as question 2 above.

I have a feeling that if we searched through the hundreds of posts in this thread, there are at least a good dozen satisfactory answers.

I think the problem is that there are some folks who will NEVER be satisfied with ANY answer.

Which begs the question: Why do they keep asking for one?
 
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Uphill Battle

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likely because it is the favorite bone of contention.

myself, I don't find the "redefinition" really does the original sentiment justice. but then, I don't pay any mind to the original text on the matter anyways, so it's rather moot, to me.

ah well.
 
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Tu Es Petrus

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likely because it is the favorite bone of contention.

myself, I don't find the "redefinition" really does the original sentiment justice. but then, I don't pay any mind to the original text on the matter anyways, so it's rather moot, to me.

ah well.

Frankly, its moot to me too. I don't see what the big hoo-hah is about. Monarchs of centuries ago loved to speak in high-fallutin' language about themselves. Kings and Princes and the like all had paintings of themselves with angels crowning them and all kinds of celestial stuff.

Thses guys are making much ado about nothing.
 
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simonthezealot

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My contention is this...Its an Infallible statement that is absolutely versus the truth of Christ, billions follow the roman see because of claimed infallibility...But Unam proves the papacy is at odds with our Savior and his word.
 
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Trento

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There is NO theology in a doctrine that states this...They don't mince words Jack...And if you've studied this pope you'll see he meant this exactly the way it reads.

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff


It is also the "unanimous conviction" of the Church Fathers that salvation cannot be achieved outside the Church.



ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (c. 110 AD)
"Those, indeed, who belong to God and to Jesus Christ -- they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church -- they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion." (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:2-3)


ST. IRENAEUS (c. 180 - 199 AD)
"In the Church, God has placed apostles, prophets and doctors, and all the other means through which the Spirit works; in all of which none have any part who do not conform to the Church. On the contrary, they defraud themselves of life by their wicked opinion and most wretched behavior. For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; and where the Spirit of God, there the Church and every grace. The Spirit, however, is Truth." (Against Heresies 3:24:1)


ORIGEN (c. 249 - 251 AD)
"If someone of that people wishes to be saved, let him come into this house [Rahab's house as a figure of the Church], so that he may be able to obtain his salvation....Let no one, then, be persuaded otherwise, nor let anyone deceive himself: outside this house, that is, outside the Catholic Church, no one is saved. For if anyone go outside, he shall be guilty of his own death." (Homilies on Josue 3:5)


ST. CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 251 AD)
"Does anyone believe that in the Church this unity which proceeds from the divine stability and which is welded together after the heavenly patterns, can be divided, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? Whoever holds not fast to this unity holds not to the law of God; neither does he keep faith with the Father and the Son, nor does he have life and salvation." (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6)

"If the Baptism of public witness and of blood cannot profit a heretic unto salvation, because there is no salvation outside the Church, how much the more worthless is it for him, in secret places and in the caves of robbers, dipped in the contagion of adulterous water, not merely not to have put off his former sins, but even to have added new and greater ones!" (Letters 73:21, c. 255 AD)


LACTANTIUS (c. 304 - 310 AD)
"It is, therefore, the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the domicile of faith; this, the temple of God. Whoever does not enter there or whoever does not go out from here, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation....Because, however, all the various groups of heretics are confident that they are the Christians, and think that theirs is the Catholic Church, let it be known: that is the true Church, in which there is confession and penance, and which takes a salubrious care of the sins and wounds to which the weak flesh is subject." (The Divine Institutions 4:30:11,13)




ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. 350 AD)
"The Church is called Catholic, then, because it extends over the whole world, from end to end of the earth; and because it teaches universally and infallibly each and every doctrine which must come to the knowledge of men, concerning things visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly; and because it brings every race of men into subjection to godliness, governors and governed, learned and unlearned; and because it universally treats and heals every class of sins, those committed with the soul and those with the body; and it possesses within itself every conceivable form of virtue, in deeds and in words and in the spiritual gifts of every description....And if ever you are visiting in cities, do not inquire simply where the House of the Lord is -- for the others, sects of the impious, attempt to call their dens the Houses of the Lord -- nor ask merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the name peculiar to this holy Church, the Mother of us all, which is the Spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God." (Catechetical Lectures 18:23,26)


ST. JEROME (c. 374 - 379 AD) Letter to Bishop of Rome, Pope Damasus
"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but Your Blessedness, that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the Rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah [the Church] will perish when the flood prevails..." (Letters 15:2)


ST. AUGUSTINE (d. 430 AD)
"A man cannot have salvation, except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church he can have everything except salvation. He can have honor, he can have Sacraments, he can sing Alleluia, he can answer Amen, he can possess the Gospel, he can have and preach faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit; but never except in the Catholic Church will he be able to find salvation." (Discourse to Church at Caesarea 6, c. 418 AD)
references found in The Faith of the Early Fathers by Jurgens, in The Christian Faith
 
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spiritman

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spiritman

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spirit, that has GOT to be sedevacanist. They list the current pope as an anti pope.

You mean there is division in the camp? I still find it interesting regarding all the catholic "prophecies" listed.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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My contention is this...Its an Infallible statement that is absolutely versus the truth of Christ, billions follow the roman see because of claimed infallibility...But Unam proves the papacy is at odds with our Savior and his word.

Your argument is a double edged sword bro.

You say 'it' is not the truth of Christ and others say that about you too.

Both sides are good at presenting references to scripture to support their theology. It is not fair to say it is versus the truth if Christ.

We will all know when our Judgment day comes that is for sure.
 
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Uphill Battle

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You mean there is division in the camp? I still find it interesting regarding all the catholic "prophecies" listed.
of course there is.

but a better way of saying it would be regarding all the "catholic" prophecies. I don't think mainstream catholics consider them catholic at all.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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2000yrs and still counting :)

Reve 11:18 and the nations are angered and came the wrath of Thee, and the time of the dead-ones to be judged, and to give the wages to Thy slaves/bondservants, the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing the name of you, the small ones and the great ones, and to blight/thru corrupt/diafqeirai <1311> (5658) the ones blighting/thru-corrupting/diafqeirontaV <1311> (5723) the Land.


Yeah... yeah. :D

You will be happy to hear I just started reading my study guide for the Book of Revelation.
 
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spiritman

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of course there is.

but a better way of saying it would be regarding all the "catholic" prophecies. I don't think mainstream catholics consider them catholic at all.

It wasn't specifically posted for catholics. Many of the prophecies appear to be by "mainstream catholics". I'm not concerned whether they are accepted or rejected by catholics. To me they're basically in the same boat anyway.

It seems to me that both camps might believe the same regarding a pope as being world ruler at the end of the age whether they believe in the prophecies or not.
 
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