Pope, King of the world?

[spiritman]

So you obey the Word of God. Yet many would fail that test of obedience when Scripture commands: "obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account" (Hebrews 13:17). Indeed "there is nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9) for even the first apostles were denied and disobeyed by many who claimed Christ.

Do you think you can void out one scripture with another? I'm happy to inform you that all scripture is in harmony and therefore should not be used to void other scriptures. Here's where spiritual understanding is needed.

 

[Trento]

Do you think you can void out one scripture with another? I'm happy to inform you that all scripture is in harmony and therefore should not be used to void other scriptures. Here's where spiritual understanding is needed.

[/quote]

1st Cor 12:
22 On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable,
23 and those parts of the body which we think less honorable [gk.atimos] we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
24 which our more presentable parts do not require.But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the parts that lacked it,
25 that there may be no division in the body...
28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers...

Seeing apostles in the parallel above as the "weaker part" of the body of Christ, then verses 24-25 from above teach that we must give proper deference to apostles so "that there may be no division in the body." And Paul repeats this idea in a second epistle:

Ephesians 4:11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for building up the body of Christ, [cf. 2Cor 10:7-8; 13:10]
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;
14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.
​

Paul's words also teach, in both sets of passages above, that the body of Christ has apostles in every age: "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I have no need of you,' nor again the head to the feet, 'I have no need of you.' On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker [apostles] are indispensable" (1st Corinthians 12:21-22). Likewise Ephesians 4:11ff has promised us the listed ministers, including apostles, until the very end - "until all attain the unity of faith, etc." Accordingly, as we see, the New Testament confirms an already growing number of apostles - such as Apollos, Silvanus, Timothy, Titus, or Barnabas. For example: "the apostles Barnabas and Paul ...appointed elders in every church" (Acts 14:14.23).
Thus the true leaders of today deserving our "complete obedience" (2nd Cor 10:6) are more than just "apostle-like," they are indeed apostles just like Barnabas or Timothy. Some will find it surprising that we have apostles today. Many would want an example. And most of us just want to know what exactly this "complete obedience" means.

 

[MamaZ]

VICAR OF CHRIST

The Pope, visible head of the Church on earth, acting for and in the place of Christ. He possesses supreme ecclesiastical authority in the Catholic church. This title for the Pope dates from at least the eighth century and gradually replaced the former title, "Vicar of St. Peter." Its biblical basis is Christ's commission of Peter to "feed my lambs, feed my sheep" (John 21:15-17).

Okay and where do we see that there is to be a visable head on earth? Because Jesus told Peter to feed His sheep? Peter was the shepherd over the Jewish people. Paul was sent to the gentiles to feed His Gentile sheep.
So how many heads does the body of Christ suppose to have? I only can read of one head of the Church and that is Christ. So could someone direct me to where we can see that there is a visable head?

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vicar of Christ

(Latin Vicarius Christi).

A title of the pope implying his supreme and universal primacy, both of honour and of jurisdiction, over the Church of Christ. It is founded on the words of the Divine Shepherd to St. Peter: "Feed my lambs. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:16-17), by which He constituted the Prince of the Apostles guardian of His entire flock in His own place, thus making him His Vicar and fulfilling the promise made in Matthew 16:18-19. In the course of the ages other vicarial designations have been used for the pope, as Vicar of St. Peter and even Vicar of the Apostolic See (Pope Gelasius, I, Ep. vi), but the title Vicar of Christ is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Church on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him. Thus, Innocent III appeals for his power to remove bishops to the fact that he is Vicar of Christ (cap. "Inter corporalia", 2, "De trans. ep."). He also declares that Christ has given such power only to His Vicar Peter and his successors (cap. "Quanto", 3, ibid.), and states that it is the Roman Pontiff who is "the successor of Peter and the Vicar of Jesus Christ" (cap. "Licet", 4, ibid.). The title Vicar of God used for the pope by Nicholas III (c. "Fundamenta ejus", 17, "De elect.", in 6) is employed as an equivalent for Vicar of Christ.

And because Jesus told Peter to feed His sheep means what? To feed His sheep. Not to rule over nor to put himself above the sheep because Peter is also one of Jesus sheep.

 

[MrPolo]

Hey Polo Elliott wrote in the mid 1800's papist popery was merely a manner to indicate a christians allegiance to the pope and there practice of it, i've read i believe that it started taking on speed as a negative connotation in america during a presidential election in the early 1900's when a catholic got the nod from one of the parties...
Let's say we get over the splitting of hairs here, ehh?
Afterall throughout history I can dig out many negative labels directed toward reformers...ever read the episcopal oaths forwarded by some of your popes?

I don't care so much about trying to see who has more name calling. But I'm pretty sure language like his dates back to some of Luther's flippant letters, and it was intended as an insult then.

My point was that such a person is probably not a good source to learn about someone else's faith and that Trent doesn't use that kind of language. But I'm glad you are able to put someone's writing in context from a time period, because Unam Sanctum, which you mentioned in your OP, was written at a time when there were power struggles between the Church and emperors, which would have influenced such strong language by Boniface VIII, whose words are a vehement circumlocution for saying "one must be part of the Church to be saved."

But I can understand how some of the posters on here can misunderstand his words. Because some here are re-interpreting it for them and they listen. And some others are predisposed to just spit venom and parrot reasonless bigotry. You hang in there, Simon, and do your research, and keep considering the historical contexts. I still recommend you expand the horizon of your resources, though.

 

[MamaZ]

Why would we need a fleshly head for a Spiritual body?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Why would we need a fleshly head for a Spiritual body?

7 heads are better than one

Reve 13:3 And one out of the heads of it as having been slaughtered/esfag-menhn/<4969> (5772) into death and the blow/stripe of the death of it was healed. And marvels whole the land behind of the beast.

 

[&Abel]

god did indeed design the creation with order and unity

and yet we are at a point of awakening and regeneration imo

not that I'm the best example of this but I do believe thats where we're at

 

[Trento]

Why would we need a fleshly head for a Spiritual body?

Ephesians 4:11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for building up the body of Christ, [cf. 2Cor 10:7-8; 13:10]
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;
14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.

Ephesians 4:11ff has promised us the listed ministers, including apostles, until the very end - "until all attain the unity of faith, etc."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ephesians 4:11ff has promised us the listed ministers, including apostles, until the very END - "until all attain the unity of faith, etc."

The End of what?
That is also a pretty tall order considering no OC Apostles, Prophets, Wisemen or Scribes survive today

Matt 23:34 "Because of this behold! I am Commissioning/apostellw <649> toward ye Prophets and Wise-men and Scribes, out of them ye shall be killing/apokteneite <615> (5692) and ye shall be Crucifying and out of them ye shall be scourging in the Synagogues of ye and ye shall be persecuting/persuing from city into city"

Reve 11:7 `And whenever they should be finishing/teleswsin <5055> (5661) the testimony of them, the wild-beast, the one ascending out of the Abyss, shall be doing with them, battle, and shall be conquering them, and it shall be killing/apoktenei <615> (5692) them

 

[Rick Otto]

Ephesians 4:11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for building up the body of Christ, [cf. 2Cor 10:7-8; 13:10]
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;
14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.

Ephesians 4:11ff has promised us the listed ministers, including apostles, until the very end - "until all attain the unity of faith, etc."

Some to be ~ , not one to be ~ .

 

[BrightCandle]

You might want to get real. Your and my opinions are not worth a wit. Here is what a Christian early church scholar says about thechurch and a Protestant one at that in order not to be bias.


History of the Christian Church Philip Schaff Protestant History Scholar


From Chaper 10 Schaff wrote--

The ministerial office was instituted by the Lord before his ascension, and solemnly inaugurated on the first Christian Pentecost by the outpouring of the Holy Ghost, to be the regular organ of the kingly power of Christ on earth in founding, maintaining, and extending the church. It appears in the New Testament under different names, descriptive of its various functions:&#8212;the "ministry of the word," "of the Spirit," "of righteousness," "of reconciliation." It includes the preaching of the gospel, the administration of the sacraments, and church discipline or the power of the keys, the power to open and shut the gates of the kingdom of heaven, in other words, to declare to the penitent the forgiveness of sins, and to the unworthy excommunication in the name and by the authority of Christ. The ministers of the gospel are, in an eminent sense, servants of God, and, as such, servants of the churches in the noble spirit of self-denying love according to the example of Christ, for the eternal salvation of the souls intrusted to their charge. They are called&#8212;not exclusively, but emphatically&#8212;the light of the world, the salt of the earth, fellow-workers with God, stewards of the mysteries of God, ambassadors for Christ.


From the beginning of Chapter 4--41. Progress in Consolidation.
In the external organization of the church, several important changes appear in the period before us. The distinction of clergy and laity, and the sacerdotal view of the ministry becomes prominent and fixed; subordinate church offices are multiplied; the episcopate arises; the beginnings of the Roman primacy appear; and the exclusive unity of the Catholic church develops itself in opposition to heretics and schismatics. The apostolical organization of the first century now gives place to the Catholic episcopal system.

Chapter 4 next paragraph.

42. Clergy and Laity.

The idea and institution of a special priesthood, distinct from the body of the people, with the accompanying notion of sacrifice and altar, passed imperceptibly from Jewish reminiscences and analogies into the Christian church.

The historical quotes that you use as evidence of a Roman Catholic Church organization in the first century is not in harmony with the record of the NT description of the Apostles manner of dress or behavior among brethren or their teaching. Again I ask, look at the Popes and Bishops in Rome, they are dressed up in outfits that are very Pagan in their origins and, are very ornate and brightly colored to impress the masses. That is evidence that betrays them as being false disciples. Picture Jesus and Paul in you minds eye, they were dressed as common men of their time, they worked with their hands and there is no record of them trumping themselves up and exalting themselves over their brethren. They were humble men and did not us "outward show" to impress people, while the Papacy uses outward show much like the Caesars of Rome did to control the masses with their pomp and display .

 

[BrightCandle]

So you obey the Word of God. Yet many would fail that test of obedience when Scripture commands: "obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account" (Hebrews 13:17). Indeed "there is nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9) for even the first apostles were denied and disobeyed by many who claimed Christ.

Note, the Scripture that you quoted, it said to obey your leaders (plural). The first century church had a counsel of tested and tried Apostles who hazarded their lives for the Lord. There no Pope in that counsel who trumped himself up over the other Apostles and demanded homage as the Papacy does in the Roman Catholic Church. Can't you see who doing what the Pope does exalts men to a position that God never intended any man to be in on this earth?

 

[MamaZ]

Ephesians 4:11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for building up the body of Christ, [cf. 2Cor 10:7-8; 13:10]
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;
14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.

Ephesians 4:11ff has promised us the listed ministers, including apostles, until the very end - "until all attain the unity of faith, etc."

Wow imagine that.. not one mention of Vicar. I wonder why? I don't see the promise of Apostles until the very end anywhere in the scripture you provided. Nor Prophets, you sure that is in there?

 

[MamaZ]

I also don't see fleshly head of a Spiritual church either.. Is that in there somewhere?

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

The historical quotes that you use as evidence of a Roman Catholic Church organization in the first century is not in harmony with the record of the NT description of the Apostles manner of dress or behavior among brethren or their teaching. Again I ask, look at the Popes and Bishops in Rome, they are dressed up in outfits that are very Pagan in their origins and, are very ornate and brightly colored to impress the masses. That is evidence that betrays them as being false disciples. Picture Jesus and Paul in you minds eye, they were dressed as common men of their time, they worked with their hands and there is no record of them trumping themselves up and exalting themselves over their brethren. They were humble men and did not us "outward show" to impress people, while the Papacy uses outward show much like the Caesars of Rome did to control the masses with their pomp and display .

So you would be Catholic if:
1. The clergy and hierarchy wore either robes and sandles, bar jackets with baseball caps, or a the cheap, ill-fitting blazers preferred by some..
2. They were less ostentatious in their processions.
3. Wouldn't be termed with a title.

Form over substance?

 

[&Abel]

anyone find their pastors are gaining in insight lately?

with a very strong presence of the spirit in church

 

[MamaZ]

anyone find their pastors are gaining in insight lately?

with a very strong presence of the spirit in church

Insight into what?

 

[&Abel]

depths of god

 

[simonthezealot]

Jackthecatholic:As I stated earlier I was looking for proof that any Pope ever claimed to be King of the earth and heaven and hell. Or that the Pope claimed to be God

Hi JtC. Me too

Here you go guys...From the coronation of Leo xiii these words were said while placing the crown on his head...Don't say well he never said it!!!
Fact is because he accepts the Tiara ie. the crowning/coronation and in doing so he accepts all that comes with it...So here ya go!!!

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text...ameset;seq=286
From there...
Accipe thiaram tribus coronis ornatam, et scias te esse Patrem Principum et Regum, Rectorem Orbis, in terra Vicarium Salvatoris Nostri Jesu Christi, cui est honor et gloria in sacula saculorum
TRANSLATED>>>
(Receive the tiara adorned with three crowns and know that thou art father of princes and kings, ruler of the World, vicar on earth of Our Savior Jesus Christ, to whom is honor and glory forever and ever.)

ALSO:

From April of 1930 TIME magazine...
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...id=chix-sphere

 

[simonthezealot]

your St. Thomas Doctor of the church places the pope at that same lofty blasphemous position.


http://books.google.com/books?id=yoAubHDsuiIC&pg=PR35&lpg=PR35&dq=%22Pope+is+the+summit+of+power%22&source=web&ots=s3fYC6ZtDn&sig=5SF2lvrYehi--muYyPYN-Vv9BGs&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPR35,M1