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Pope, King of the world?

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JacktheCatholic

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"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".


What is the full text?

Is this saying that because God has bestowed the powers given to Jesus to be used by the Pope through the Keys then this sentence can be forgiven. If it is saying the Pope and God are the same in ALL matters then it is quite different. But I suspect we have something taken out of context and possibly quite intentionally.

Please provide the full text.
 
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WarriorAngel

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"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".
Quick definitions (steward)
▸ noun: someone who manages property or other affairs for someone else
▸ noun: an attendant on an airplane
▸ noun: the ship's officer who is in charge of provisions and dining arrangements
▸ noun: a union member who is elected to represent fellow workers in negotiating with management
▸ noun: one having charge of buildings or grounds or animals
▸ name: A surname (common: 1 in 10000 families; popularity rank in the U.S.: #1192)



I think an excellent example of a steward is in the 'Lord of the Rings' - the city has no King so the steward is in the place of the king and has his powers to decide how things are going to work...
The steward continues to do so until and only until the king returns to take his rightful place.

SO the position he stands in - is the place of God's ministry on earth.

And I am sure there is an added explanation to the quoted verse.
I can assume that because I know writings were always explained.
But i can guess it says similarly to what i just said.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Rick Otto

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Please provide the full text.
Mornin' Jack!
I'm so glad you recognize the outrageousness of such a claim so much that you think it must be out-of-context, although I can't imagine a context creative enough to modify it.
I can't post it all, but the way I found it was to copy the title, paste into a search engine, and oila!

Looking again, I can't seem to find an RC entry on it.
I'd think they'd be proud of their stuff enough to make it available to all. don't you?
Maybe with your inside connections you could find it for us.
At any rate, I cited it fully and correctly. If you want to assert that it is "out of context", then it is your responsibility to substantiate that allegation.
Meanwhile, there is plenty of other RC documents that support the same idea:
"To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, Cum. Inter, title 14, chapter 4, "Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium", Column 140, Paris, 1685. (In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" (“Our Lord God the Pope”) can be found in column 153).

"Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods." Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).
 
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JoabAnias

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"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".

Yea, so true.

Can I ask, what Church you go to?
 
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JoabAnias

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You should read the real history and perhaps the letter from a Rabbi of the Judiac faith thanking the Pope for his help.

Not only did he thank him, he converted. :thumbsup:
 
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JacktheCatholic

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"Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods." Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).

The first sentence sets the tone for us:
"Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God." It says it is not the man (Pope) but God that the power or action derives from. This makes perfect sense when you understand that the Pope is the Steward or Prime Minister for Jesus Christ.


Moving on to the second sentence:
"For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God?"
The Pope holdeth place on earth which is the representative of Jesus and since Jesus is God he holds the place for God. This seems simply stated enough. Then it says by divine authority which, of course, is Jesus who gave the Keys to the Pope. It goes on at length but only expounds on how much greater the Pope's auhtority is to any other man because the Pope's authority is "as if" from God since the Pope represents Jesus. Again, when understood as the Pope being the Steward or Prime Minister of the Kingdom we see this as not taking away from God but instead asserting that the God is more powerful than any other man.

Let us now look at the third sentence in accord with these first two which have stated that God is behind what the Pope declares because the Pope is the Steward/Prime Minister of His kingdom.
"Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods."
Let me ask what 'gods' means here? It seems to be addressing false gods to me. So I guess we need to address further the context of this letter. It seems the Pope is claiming that Jesus is the only God that has any real power and that as a Steward or Prime Minsiter for God that the Pope is greater than any of these other 'gods'.




Also who is the author, the Pope?



As I stated earlier I was looking for proof that any Pope ever claimed to be King of the earth and heaven and hell. Or that the Pope claimed to be God.
 
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M

MamaZ

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Jesus handed Peter the keys to continue His ministry saving His ppl with the sacraments

where can we read about the sacraments Jesus set up? For in scripture I see no sacaments set up by Jesus.

He set up and ordained for our sakes to be outward signs of receiving grace.
So are you saying that Peter saves His people?



Since Jesus choose Peter to be bearer of the keys of His Kingdom Jesus gave the keys to all of the Apostles and not just Peter.

We see that it is logically to accept that as holder of the keys - he is able to open and shut and shut and open what the Lord has deemed necessary for our salvation.
What is necesarry for our salvation that Peter has done?



IE - since the Lord wouldnt be present:confused: So Jesus is not present within His people?

- He sent His man - and men to continue onwards the same ministry.
Actually He sent all the Apostles. Not just one man Peter. He sent Paul and John and all the others. :) He sends us today to go and preach the Gospels and to make disciples.


So Peter is His stand in [steward]
Peter is no more His stand in than I am. Christ does not need a man to stand inn His place. No man can stand in the place of Christ..
 
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Standing Up

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Good post. This Easter decision to be celebrated on Sunday always is a good example as to how Rome held a Primacy. :thumbsup:


Or (bishop of Rome) Anicetus could not persuade (bishop of Smyrna) Polycarp to forgo the observance [of his Nisan 14 practice] inasmuch as these things had been always observed by John the disciple of the Lord, and by other apostles with whom he had been conversant; nor did Polycarp persuade Anicetus to keep it: Anicetus said that he must hold to the way of the elders before him.

Polycarp stood on the authority of the apostles, specifying John. Anicetus stood on the way of the elders.

On which shall we stand?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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As I stated earlier I was looking for proof that any Pope ever claimed to be King of the earth and heaven and hell. Or that the Pope claimed to be God
Hi JtC. Me too :thumbsup:
 
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Standing Up

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What the heck is a "quartodeciman" :confused: I view them mainly as "symbolic" myself...


A quartodeciman is someone who believes that Christ Jesus held Passover, was betrayed, was arrested at midnight in the garden, tried, crucified, and died in the afternoon on the 14th of Nisan (think in Jewish time terms, sunset is the start of the new day).

This view was "lost to history".

The seven letters were written to those who held to this fact/tradition by the teaching of the apostles from Christ Jesus. As examples,

One of them was Melito the Eunich, bishop of Sardis. In a symbolic/real way, the message was reputation of alive, but dead. No fruit, eunich, quartodeciman truth died.

Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna. Persecution.

Can't remember the bishop of Laodicea. Lukewarm.
 
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JoabAnias

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What does vicar of Christ mean?

VICAR OF CHRIST

The Pope, visible head of the Church on earth, acting for and in the place of Christ. He possesses supreme ecclesiastical authority in the Catholic church. This title for the Pope dates from at least the eighth century and gradually replaced the former title, "Vicar of St. Peter." Its biblical basis is Christ's commission of Peter to "feed my lambs, feed my sheep" (John 21:15-17).


CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vicar of Christ

(Latin Vicarius Christi).

A title of the pope implying his supreme and universal primacy, both of honour and of jurisdiction, over the Church of Christ. It is founded on the words of the Divine Shepherd to St. Peter: "Feed my lambs. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:16-17), by which He constituted the Prince of the Apostles guardian of His entire flock in His own place, thus making him His Vicar and fulfilling the promise made in Matthew 16:18-19. In the course of the ages other vicarial designations have been used for the pope, as Vicar of St. Peter and even Vicar of the Apostolic See (Pope Gelasius, I, Ep. vi), but the title Vicar of Christ is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Church on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him. Thus, Innocent III appeals for his power to remove bishops to the fact that he is Vicar of Christ (cap. "Inter corporalia", 2, "De trans. ep."). He also declares that Christ has given such power only to His Vicar Peter and his successors (cap. "Quanto", 3, ibid.), and states that it is the Roman Pontiff who is "the successor of Peter and the Vicar of Jesus Christ" (cap. "Licet", 4, ibid.). The title Vicar of God used for the pope by Nicholas III (c. "Fundamenta ejus", 17, "De elect.", in 6) is employed as an equivalent for Vicar of Christ.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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A quartodeciman is someone who believes that Christ Jesus held Passover, was betrayed, was arrested at midnight in the garden, tried, crucified, and died in the afternoon on the 14th of Nisan (think in Jewish time terms, sunset is the start of the new day).
According to Exodus 12, that is when the "destroyer" came.
Also note the same word "mid of night" used in Matt 25:5. I have a fairly large study on this in relation to the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation :wave:

Exodus 12:29And is becoming mid/02677 chetsiy of the night and YHWH smote every of firstborn in land of Egypt, from firstborn of Pharaoh, the one sitting on his throne, unto firstborn of the captive which in house of cistern and every of firstborn of beast.

Matt 25:5 Of tarrying yet the Bridegroom they nod all and are slept.
6 Of middle yet of night a cry has occured "behold! the Bridegroom. Be ye coming out! into meeting of Him".
 
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spiritman

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VICAR OF CHRIST

The Pope, visible head of the Church on earth, acting for and in the place of Christ. He possesses supreme ecclesiastical authority in the Catholic church. This title for the Pope dates from at least the eighth century and gradually replaced the former title, "Vicar of St. Peter." Its biblical basis is Christ's commission of Peter to "feed my lambs, feed my sheep" (John 21:15-17).


CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vicar of Christ

(Latin Vicarius Christi).

A title of the pope implying his supreme and universal primacy, both of honour and of jurisdiction, over the Church of Christ. It is founded on the words of the Divine Shepherd to St. Peter: "Feed my lambs. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:16-17), by which He constituted the Prince of the Apostles guardian of His entire flock in His own place, thus making him His Vicar and fulfilling the promise made in Matthew 16:18-19. In the course of the ages other vicarial designations have been used for the pope, as Vicar of St. Peter and even Vicar of the Apostolic See (Pope Gelasius, I, Ep. vi), but the title Vicar of Christ is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Church on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ and with vicarial power derived from Him. Thus, Innocent III appeals for his power to remove bishops to the fact that he is Vicar of Christ (cap. "Inter corporalia", 2, "De trans. ep."). He also declares that Christ has given such power only to His Vicar Peter and his successors (cap. "Quanto", 3, ibid.), and states that it is the Roman Pontiff who is "the successor of Peter and the Vicar of Jesus Christ" (cap. "Licet", 4, ibid.). The title Vicar of God used for the pope by Nicholas III (c. "Fundamenta ejus", 17, "De elect.", in 6) is employed as an equivalent for Vicar of Christ.

Christ is the Head of the church on earth and in heaven not the Pope. There is no reference in scripture that states the Pope as being the head of anything. And everybody knows that the word Pope is not even Biblical. Fortunately we have the Word of God to dispel the false statement that the Pope is head of the church of Christ. Now he may be the head of a religious institution but he is certainly not the head of the Body of Christ. Only Christ can be the Head of His own Body.

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Does anyone see the word "pope" in these verses? If so , please have your eyes checked and or your mind flushed with the Word of God.
And of course we should note that the scriptures nowhere states that Christ is only the Head of those in heaven. Christ is the Head of all believers wherever they may be. For those that are born again know that the word "church" means those that are called out. Out of the world and into the Kingdom of God. Christ is the ruler of His Kingdom and He is the Head of His church, those that are called out. He doesn't need or have a pope ruling His spiritual Kingdom or being the head of His church.

Only those in the Kingdom of God can know and understand that Christ is alive in them and lives thru them here on earth. Ac 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being;.....
Jesus is alive in us to lead us and guide us into all truth. We don't need a priest or pope if we have Christ in us. And why would anyone want someone to guide them if they have Christ in them? Probably only those that are either ignorant of the scriptures or they do not have Christ in them. The natural or unregenerate man needs something tangible like a pope or priest. But those that know Christ are led by His Spirit because they are the sons of God.

Christ’s command to Peter to feed His sheep does not constitute being the head of the sheep. Feeding someone and being the head of someone are two different things.

Being the head of someone signifies authority and nowhere in scripture will you find the word “head” used to describe Peter or any apostle as being a “head” of any man. The divine authority of “head” over someone is clearly shown in this passage.


1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I don’t see any pope listed here. The word of God is very helpful in flushing out the corrupt thinking that the pope is the their “head”.

You quote the catholic encyclopedia as being an authoritative source for defining and explaining the popes role. Sounds ludicrous to me and I’m sure every non-catholic. What a joke! Let me inform you of a little secret, non-catholics don’t believe its a credible, reliable, or authoritative source with regard to the popes role over the Body of Christ.

Maybe I should make up my own encyclopedia defining my role as head over the catholic church and expect everyone to submit to me. And since I am infallible don’t you dare question my authority.
 
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Trento

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Now he may be the head of a religious institution but he is certainly not the head of the Body of Christ. Only Christ can be the Head of His own Body.

And of course we should note that the scriptures nowhere states that Christ is only the Head of those in heaven. Christ is the Head of all believers wherever they may be. For those that are born again know that the word "church" means those that are called out. Out of the world and into the Kingdom of God. Christ is the ruler of His Kingdom and He is the Head of His church, those that are called out. He doesn't need or have a pope ruling His spiritual Kingdom or being the head of His church.

We don't need a priest or pope if we have Christ in us. And why would anyone want someone to guide them if they have Christ in them? Probably only those that are either ignorant of the scriptures or they do not have Christ in them. Being the head of someone signifies authority and nowhere in scripture will you find the word “head” used to describe Peter or any apostle as being a “head” of any man.

So you obey the Word of God. Yet many would fail that test of obedience when Scripture commands: "obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account" (Hebrews 13:17). Indeed "there is nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9) for even the first apostles were denied and disobeyed by many who claimed Christ.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So you obey the Word of God. Yet many would fail that test of obedience when Scripture commands: "obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account" (Hebrews 13:17). Indeed "there is nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9) for even the first apostles were denied and disobeyed by many who claimed Christ.
So what Christians do not do that today>? :confused:
 
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