Gospel of Christ Not Possible in TE Doctrine?

[yeshuasavedme]

Indeed, it was not possible to discover evolution without the history of scientific inquiry that led to it. But so what? It is not possible to discover God's great love for us through any line of scientific inquiry at all. So it wouldn't matter how "evolved" we became, we could never know God except through his gracious self-revelation.

And God did not wait--not even till people were able to put things in writing--which also took a historical time to evolve into a form of communication--to reveal himself to his people. God called Abraham without using any book to communicate with him. God revealed himself and his will to all his prophets, directly and not through written intermediaries.

.

There is no such a thing as evolution in God's creation, and anything calling itself "science" which states that there is evolution is"science falsely so called", and the vain babblings of those who oppose God's record as He gave it are given no heed, by Believers in Jesus Christ.
1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

God's record in Genesis is not a "story". Nowhere in the Word of God is it called a "story". It is the record which He gave of His creation of all that is in heaven and earth in exactly six evenings and mornings =six full days of equal darkness and light.

And mankind "wrote" from the beginning. Adam kept records. One text of old records that Cainan, grandson of Seth, prophesied and wrote down the prophesy of the first flood on earth which was to come, and which did come, and which killed one third of Adamkind hundreds of years before the flood of Noah. That flood is recorded in the book of Jasher which is titled "The Upright Record", in Hebrew.

Jasher 2:2-6
And Seth lived one hundred and five years, and he begat a son; and Seth called the name of his son Enosh, saying, Because in that time the sons of men began to multiply, and to afflict their souls and hearts by transgressing and rebelling against God.
And it was in the days of Enosh that the sons of men continued to rebel and transgress against God, to increase the anger of the Lord against the sons of men.
And the sons of men went and they served other gods, and they forgot the Lord who had created them in the earth: and in those days the sons of men made images of brass and iron, wood and stone, and they bowed down and served them.
And every man made his god and they bowed down to them, and the sons of men forsook the Lord all the days of Enosh and his children; and the anger of the Lord was kindled on account of their works and abominations which they did in the earth.
And the Lord caused the waters of the river Gihon to overwhelm them, and he destroyed and consumed them, and he destroyed the third part of the earth, and notwithstanding this, the sons of men did not turn from their evil ways, and their hands were yet extended to do evil in the sight of the Lord.

Enoch was born seventh from Adam, . Adam lived for 930 years and Enoch preached righteousness and wrote books, before Adam died.

The Upright Record/Jasher chapter 3:

1. Enoch lived sixty-five years and he begat Methuselah; and Enoch walked with God after having begot Methuselah, and he served the Lord, and despised the evil ways of men.
2. And the soul of Enoch was wrapped up in the instruction of the Lord, in knowledge and in understanding; and he wisely retired from the sons of men, and secreted himself from them for many days.
3. And it was at the expiration of many years, whilst he was serving the Lord, and praying before him in his house, that an angel of the Lord called to him from Heaven, and he said, Here am I.
4. And he said, Rise, go forth from thy house and from the place where thou dost hide thyself, and appear to the sons of men, in order that thou mayest teach them the way in which they should go and the work which they must accomplish to enter in the ways of God.
5. And Enoch rose up according to the word of the Lord, and went forth from his house, from his place and from the chamber in which he was concealed; and he went to the sons of men and taught them the ways of the Lord, and at that time assembled the sons of men and acquainted them with the instruction of the Lord.
6. And he ordered it to be proclaimed in all places where the sons of men dwelt, saying, Where is the man who wishes to know the ways of the Lord and good works? let him come to Enoch.
7. And all the sons of men then assembled to him, for all who desired this thing went to Enoch, and Enoch reigned over the sons of men according to the word of the Lord, and they came and bowed to him and they heard his word.
8. And the spirit of God was upon Enoch, and he taught all his men the wisdom of God and his ways, and the sons of men served the Lord all the days of Enoch, and they came to hear his wisdom.
9. And all the kings of the sons of men, both first and last, together with their princes and judges, came to Enoch when they heard of his wisdom, and they bowed down to him, and they also required of Enoch to reign over them, to which he consented.
10. And they assembled in all, one hundred and thirty kings and princes, and they made Enoch king over them and they were all under his power and command.
11. And Enoch taught them wisdom, knowledge, and the ways of the Lord; and he made peace amongst them, and peace was throughout the earth during the life of Enoch.
12. And Enoch reigned over the sons of men two hundred and forty-three years, and he did justice and righteousness with all his people, and he led them in the ways of the Lord.
13. And these are the generations of Enoch, Methuselah, Elisha, and Elimelech, three sons; and their sisters were Melca and Nahmah, and Methuselah lived eighty-seven years and he begat Lamech.
14. And it was in the fifty-sixth year of the life of Lamech when Adam died; nine hundred and thirty years old was he at his death, and his two sons, with Enoch and Methuselah his son, buried him with great pomp, as at the burial of kings, in the cave which God had told him.
15. And in that place all the sons of men made a great mourning and weeping on account of Adam; it has therefore become a custom among the sons of men to this day.
16. And Adam died because he ate of the tree of knowledge; he and his children after him, as the Lord God had spoken.
17. And it was in the year of Adam's death which was the two hundred and forty-third year of the reign of Enoch, in that time Enoch resolved to separate himself from the sons of men and to secret himself as at first in order to serve the Lord.
18. And Enoch did so, but did not entirely secret himself from them, but kept away from the sons of men three days and then went to them for one day.
19. And during the three days that he was in his chamber, he prayed to, and praised the Lord his God, and the day on which he went and appeared to his subjects he taught them the ways of the Lord, and all they asked him about the Lord he told them.
20. And he did in this manner for many years, and he afterward concealed himself for six days, and appeared to his people one day in seven; and after that once in a month, and then once in a year, until all the kings, princes and sons of men sought for him, and desired again to see the face of Enoch, and to hear his word; but they could not, as all the sons of men were greatly afraid of Enoch, and they feared to approach him on account of the Godlike awe that was seated upon his countenance; therefore no man could look at him, fearing he might be punished and die.
21. And all the kings and princes resolved to assemble the sons of men, and to come to Enoch, thinking that they might all speak to him at the time when he should come forth amongst them, and they did so.
22. And the day came when Enoch went forth and they all assembled and came to him, and Enoch spoke to them the words of the Lord and he taught them wisdom and knowledge, and they bowed down before him and they said, May the king live! May the king live!
23. And in some time after, when the kings and princes and the sons of men were speaking to Enoch, and Enoch was teaching them the ways of God, behold an angel of the Lord then called unto Enoch from heaven, and wished to bring him up to heaven to make him reign there over the sons of God, as he had reigned over the sons of men upon earth.
24. When at that time Enoch heard this he went and assembled all the inhabitants of the earth, and taught them wisdom and knowledge and gave them divine instructions, and he said to them, I have been required to ascend into heaven, I therefore do not know the day of my going.
25. And now therefore I will teach you wisdom and knowledge and will give you instruction before I leave you, how to act upon earth whereby you may live; and he did so.
26. And he taught them wisdom and knowledge, and gave them instruction, and he reproved them, and he placed before them statutes and judgments to do upon earth, and he made peace amongst them, and he taught them everlasting life, and dwelt with them some time teaching them all these things.

Noah wrote books, but Noah hated writing, and lamented it sorely, in a fragment of Noah included in 1 Enoch.

Noah took Enoch's books onto the Ark. Abram lived with Noah and Shem for 29 years, hiding from Nimrod, who wished to kill him because of certain star signs seen at his birth. While in the house of Noah, Noah and Shem taught Abram the righteousness of YHWH, and Abram became an instructer of righteousness to all who came in contact with him -as Enoch and Methusaleh had done before Enoch was taken to heaven and as Methusaleh continued to do and as he then did with Noah for the 120 years before the flood. These records are in the "Upright Record", which Moses compiled from the ancient books of the patriarchs which he had access to, which were written by those before him.

There is an unbroken written record of the history of this earth, from Adam to Joshua, existing in three books, which books show that all evolutionary teaching is false teaching. All TE doctrines are proven false by the three records, which show that, from the beginning, God's Word is true.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

So was the Book of Enoch know as 'The Wisdom of God'? Or is it simply your title to claim Jesus was quoting Enoch?

As the Scriptures I quoted state, Jesus called Enoch's writings the Wisdom of God.
I gave the Enoch passage from the dream visions of Enoch, which tell that about Israel, and of their being elected -chosen- as the people of the righteous seed, and of their fall, and of their killing of the called and "sent" apsotles.

Jesus is "infused" in the doctrine of 1 Enoch, and He speaks of those things in 1 Enoch about Himself which are not in the OT. The throne of His glory [for the Son of Man to sit upon] is taught only in 1 Enoch, which He mentions in the NT. He sat upon the created throne of YHWH in the created heaven as the Head of Days, but He came to ransom earth and to sit upon the Throne of Glory reserved for the Son of Man; to which no human being had ascended because Adam fell, as a son of God, and Adam lost the glory and lost the right to ascend as a son of God -and we are in Adam, dead, as sons of God and we must be born again in Christ, to be sons of God in the "New Man" name and have the right to ascend.


Without Enoch, Jesus' speaking of His throne of glory [the throne of Glory for the Son of Man to sit upon] and that which He will seat His saints upon has no foundational doctrine in the OT. Hannah read Enoch, and made mention in her praise psalm of the throne of glory which the saints will sit upon who are raised there, by the Son of Man.

1 Enoch gives the foundational doctrines for not only the Son of Man "hidden with God" and who "was God", in heaven "from the beginning, ordained for our glory", but it is the foundational doctrine for the existence of demons, and why they roam earth, and when they will be removed, and to where.

1 Enoch also gives the foundational doctrine for the lake/abyss of fire and it being the "outer darkness" where great pain and torment awaits those cast there.
1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for Sheol beneath earth, as a holding place for the dead souls, and the place where the fornicating angels are chained.

1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for the Son of Man being the sole judge of all creation, and the foundational doctrine was only in Enoch for that judgment, until Jesus Christ came and expounded upon it as it is written of in 1 Enoch.
1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for the fall of the watchers.
1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for the coming great tribulation that Jesus spoke so much about.
1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for the archangels and their names and their duties.
1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for the fixed earth and the orbiting sun, moon, and stars -geocentricity.
1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for the Day of Atonement which was to come and is the foundational doctrine for the reason a goat was chosen on the rehearsal of the day of atonement "for Azazel" [Azazel is wrongly translated to English as "scapegoat"].
1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for the resurrection of the dead bodies of all born in Adam, and is the foundational doctrine for the reason the bodies of the nephillim will not rise from the dead, ever.

None of those things above are explained and expounded upon in the OT, but are explained and expounded upon in the writings of Enoch, and Jesus read them and believed them, and used them as truth about all those things.
Anyone can read these things for themselves to see that they are true,

Companion of the hosts of heaven does not mean like them. It is Daniel who say the righteous will be like the stars.

You err.
In Zec YHWH states that Jesus Christ, the "Geber/Man", is His companion/fellow. He is "like/equal with" YHWH". -So yes indeed! Enoch's prophesy from the mouth of God that the saints will be "companions with the angels in heaven" means that they will be like, equal with, fellows of, the angels in heaven. -Jesus rebuked the Sadducees for not knowing the Scripture which taught that the resurrected saints are equal with, like, the angels in heaven who do not marry and are not given in marraige -1 Enoch chapter 15. BTW: Enoch's words to that effect were from the mouth of God for Enoch to write down.
-You should really be a good Berean and "search the Scriptures and see if these things be so".


- Zec 13:7 -
Zec 13:7 NKJV "Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, Against the Man/Geber who is My Companion," Says the LORD of hosts....

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Enoch chapter 104 ...Be hopeful, and cast not away your hopes for ye shall have great joy as the angels of heaven. What shall ye be obliged to do ? Ye shall not have to hide on the day of the great judgement and ye shall not be found as sinners, and the eternal 6 judgement shall be far from you for all the generations of the world. And now fear not, ye righteous, when ye see the sinners growing strong and prospering in their ways: be not companions with them, 7 but keep afar from their violence; for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven.

When Jesus quotes scripture you know because he says he is quoting it and you can find the passage.

When Jesus quotes and teaches and expounds Scripture from 1 Enoch, those who read 1 Enoch and are familiar with it know that Jesus is quoting it and they can find the passage in Enoch.
When Jesus said to the Sadducees who were discussing "Moses" that they erred not knowing Scripture He was telling them they did not know 1 Enoch in that rebuke, for the Sadducees asked whose wife the woman would be in the resurrection of the dead since she married seven brothers. There is no marraige in heaven and the resurrected saints are like the angels in heaven whom Enoch reported -from the mouth of the Great Glory on His throne- that the angels in heaven do not marry. Moses wrote that angels married. The sadducees had the Septuagint which translated the angels -the sons of God- took daughters of Adam, in Genesis 6. Sadducees knew that Moses wrote that those angels married. Jesus rebuked them for not knowing that angels in heaven do not marry and that in the resurrection to life, the saints are like -equal with, companions with- the angels "in heaven".
You err greatly for not knowing those Scriptures about the angels in heaven not marrying.
It is Moses who wrote that angels married -in earth. But Jesus is not speaking of Moses' writing being the Scripture that taught that the angels in heaven do not marry, and that the resurrected saints are equal with, as/like the angels in heaven.

 

[Assyrian]

As the Scriptures I quoted state, Jesus called Enoch's writings the Wisdom of God.

No he didn't.

I gave the Enoch passage from the dream visions of Enoch, which tell that about Israel, and of their being elected -chosen- as the people of the righteous seed, and of their fall, and of their killing of the called and "sent" apsotles.

The root of the word apostle means sent, but it does not follow that everyone who is sent is an apostle. That is a specific title with with specific connotations. The passages in Enoch doesn't mention apostles and the lament that the Israelites reject and kill the prophets God sent is found throughout the OT.

1Kings 19:10 He said, "I have been very jealous for the LORD, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away."

2Ch 36:15 The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent persistently to them by his messengers, because he had compassion on his people and on his dwelling place. 16 But they kept mocking the messengers of God, despising his words and scoffing at his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD rose against his people, until there was no remedy.

Neh 9:26 "Nevertheless, they were disobedient and rebelled against you and cast your law behind their back and killed your prophets, who had warned them in order to turn them back to you, and they committed great blasphemies.

Jer 2:30 In vain have I struck your children; they took no correction; your own sword devoured your prophets like a ravening lion.

Mic 7:2 The godly has perished from the earth, and there is no one upright among mankind; they all lie in wait for blood, and each hunts the other with a net.

What you need to show is that Jesus was quoting Enoch when he spoke of the Wisdom of God. So far you have failed completely, and as I said Matthew ascribed the quote to Jesus.

Jesus is "infused" in the doctrine of 1 Enoch, and He speaks of those things in 1 Enoch about Himself which are not in the OT. The throne of His glory [for the Son of Man to sit upon] is taught only in 1 Enoch, which He mentions in the NT. He sat upon the created throne of YHWH in the created heaven as the Head of Days, but He came to ransom earth and to sit upon the Throne of Glory reserved for the Son of Man; to which no human being had ascended because Adam fell, as a son of God, and Adam lost the glory and lost the right to ascend as a son of God -and we are in Adam, dead, as sons of God and we must be born again in Christ, to be sons of God in the "New Man" name and have the right to ascend.

Psalm 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool."

Jesus' teaching is infused with the Jewish theology we see in Mary and Martha, and to quite an extent, the Pharisees and Essenes. We find the same theology in writings from the intertestamental period like Enoch and Jubilees, but while Jesus treats the theology as correct, if incomplete, he never treats it as scripture or quotes it as authoritative the way he does scripture.

Jesus did not call Enoch the Wisdom of God, because he wasn't quoting Enoch when he said it.

Without Enoch, Jesus' speaking of His throne of glory [the throne of Glory for the Son of Man to sit upon] and that which He will seat His saints upon has no foundational doctrine in the OT. Hannah read Enoch, and made mention in her praise psalm of the throne of glory which the saints will sit upon who are raised there, by the Son of Man.

There you go. The writer of Enoch got it from 1Samuel.

1 Enoch gives the foundational doctrines for not only the Son of Man "hidden with God" and who "was God", in heaven "from the beginning, ordained for our glory", but it is the foundational doctrine for the existence of demons, and why they roam earth, and when they will be removed, and to where.

Sound like a lot of stuff based on the OT there, the Son of Man in Daniel, the personification of Wisdom in Proverbs coming forth from God for the creation. As for why demons roam the earth, I don't think there is a specific NT teaching on that so you can't say there NT is based on Enoch.

1 Enoch also gives the foundational doctrine for the lake/abyss of fire and it being the "outer darkness" where great pain and torment awaits those cast there.
1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for Sheol beneath earth, as a holding place for the dead souls, and the place where the fornicating angels are chained.

Sheol is pure OT.

Dan 7:10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened. 11 I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.

Isaiah 30:33 For a burning place has long been prepared; indeed, for the king it is made ready, its pyre made deep and wide, with fire and wood in abundance; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of sulphur, kindles it.

Isaiah 34:9 And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulphur; her land shall become burning pitch.
10 Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.

1Sam 2:9 He will guard the feet of his faithful ones, but the wicked shall be cut off in darkness, for not by might shall a man prevail.

1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for the Son of Man being the sole judge of all creation, and the foundational doctrine was only in Enoch for that judgment, until Jesus Christ came and expounded upon it as it is written of in 1 Enoch.
1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for the fall of the watchers.
1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for the coming great tribulation that Jesus spoke so much about.
1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for the archangels and their names and their duties.
1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for the fixed earth and the orbiting sun, moon, and stars -geocentricity.
1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for the Day of Atonement which was to come and is the foundational doctrine for the reason a goat was chosen on the rehearsal of the day of atonement "for Azazel" [Azazel is wrongly translated to English as "scapegoat"].
1 Enoch is the foundational doctrine for the resurrection of the dead bodies of all born in Adam, and is the foundational doctrine for the reason the bodies of the nephillim will not rise from the dead, ever.

So are watchers mentioned in the NT, or the role or names of archangels other than Michael who is mentioned in Daniel?*
How about Azaziel? Does the NT mention the Nephilim not rising from the dead?

Dan 12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Notice how Daniel refers to Michael as a great prince, the word prince, sar, is translated in the LXX as archōn, chief, prince or ruler, from archō to rule. That is where we get archangel from too. Notice how Daniel talks of Resurrection of the dead and judgment too?

How about verse 1 the "time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time." Sounds to me like Jesus was referring back to Daniel in Matt 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

*The NT mentions Gabriel too, though it doesn't call him an archangel, but then Daniel also has Gabriel. How come if Enoch is so inspired the only archangels it lists that are mentioned in the NT are the one that are also found in the OT. The other archangels listed in Enoch, that aren't mentioned in the OT, don't get a mention in the NT either. Odd that.

None of those things above are explained and expounded upon in the OT, but are explained and expounded upon in the writings of Enoch, and Jesus read them and believed them, and used them as truth about all those things.
Anyone can read these things for themselves to see that they are true,

Right.

Companion of the hosts of heaven does not mean like them. It is Daniel who say the righteous will be like the stars.

You err.
In Zec YHWH states that Jesus Christ, the "Geber/Man", is His companion/fellow. He is "like/equal with" YHWH". -So yes indeed! Enoch's prophesy from the mouth of God that the saints will be "companions with the angels in heaven" means that they will be like, equal with, fellows of, the angels in heaven. -Jesus rebuked the Sadducees for not knowing the Scripture which taught that the resurrected saints are equal with, like, the angels in heaven who do not marry and are not given in marraige -1 Enoch chapter 15. BTW: Enoch's words to that effect were from the mouth of God for Enoch to write down.

-You should really be a good Berean and "search the Scriptures and see if these things be so".


- Zec 13:7 -
Zec 13:7 NKJV "Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, Against the Man/Geber who is My Companion," Says the LORD of hosts....

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

I err in the sense of saying: Err ysm, that is a complete logical fallacy.

A companion may be an equal, other companions are not. A lot of people keep a dog or cat as a companion, it doesn't make the animal equal to a human or make them equal to a dog. Job 30:29 I am a brother of jackals and a companion of ostriches. It doesn't mean Job really was equal to an ostrich. Companions may be equals, but there is nothing in the term companion that suggest equality.

When Jesus quotes and teaches and expounds Scripture from 1 Enoch, those who read 1 Enoch and are familiar with it know that Jesus is quoting it and they can find the passage in Enoch.
When Jesus said to the Sadducees who were discussing "Moses" that they erred not knowing Scripture He was telling them they did not know 1 Enoch in that rebuke, for the Sadducees asked whose wife the woman would be in the resurrection of the dead since she married seven brothers. There is no marraige in heaven and the resurrected saints are like the angels in heaven whom Enoch reported -from the mouth of the Great Glory on His throne- that the angels in heaven do not marry. Moses wrote that angels married. The sadducees had the Septuagint which translated the angels -the sons of God- took daughters of Adam, in Genesis 6. Sadducees knew that Moses wrote that those angels married. Jesus rebuked them for not knowing that angels in heaven do not marry and that in the resurrection to life, the saints are like -equal with, companions with- the angels "in heaven".
You err greatly for not knowing those Scriptures about the angels in heaven not marrying.
It is Moses who wrote that angels married -in earth. But Jesus is not speaking of Moses' writing being the Scripture that taught that the angels in heaven do not marry, and that the resurrected saints are equal with, as/like the angels in heaven.

Why would the Sadducees use the Septuagint? Besides the Septuagint doesn't say angels, it says 'the sons of God', like the Hebrew does Gen 6:2 ἰδόντες δὲ οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ τὰς θυγατέρας τῶν ἀνθρώπων Anyway, you still haven't show where Jesus was quoting Enoch. He quoted Exodus and said that he was quoting the book of Moses. There isn't the slightest suggestion Jesus was quoting Enoch or that he thought it was scripture.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The root of the word apostle means sent, but it does not follow that everyone who is sent is an apostle. That is a specific title with with specific connotations. What you are doing is hand waving and trying to get a passage in Enoch to sound vaguely similar to what Jesus said. In fact the lament that the Israelites reject and kill the prophets God sent is found throughout the OT.

The Book of Enoch is before the OT, and that is the place where He "said" I "will send them"...He did not say that in the OT. He said it in 1 Enoch.
And in Enoch, apostles and prophets were to be sent of whom the Jews would slay some of -and persecute them.

Jesus said it, not I.
Jesus speaks to the Jews;
Luke 11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
Therefore/this * * also/indeed said the wisdom of God, I will send * them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute/oppress with calamities : That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required/demanded back of this generation;
Verse 48 is past tense, Jesus expounded to the Jews that this is indeed what the Wisdom of God had said" they would do.
Jesus is the Apostle sent/ apostello by the Father to the Jews first, and also to the nations of the world:
Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent/apostello me, even so send/g3992/pempo I you.
Jesus sends His disciples as the Father has sent Him. He sends them to the Jew first, and also the nations of the world.

g652/apostle 1) a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders AV — apostle 78, messenger 2, he that is sent 1
from
G649 apostello 1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
from apo G575 and stello G4724 [- G2476/histemi]

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

Before Jesus came to the Jews, He sent prophets and Apsotles to them, as Enoch first prophesied He would do even before the nation of Israel arose in the world as the Elect People of the New Man name -in which name all souls in Adam who are redeemed, are saved.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Enoch's dream vision before the flood is about the future people of the New Man name [which name was secret until it was revealed/given/invoked over Jacob], who would be elected as sons of God in that New Name: Jesus speaks of what Enoch prophesied in the vision and Jesus calls ENoch's writings "the Wisdom of God" -Enoch tells us often in his writings that he is given wisdom to preach and teach, from God.

Enoch 89: 50 And that house became great and broad, and it was built for those sheep: (and) a tower lofty and great was built on the house for the Lord of the sheep, and that house was low, but the tower was elevated and lofty, and the Lord of the sheep stood on that tower and they offered a full table before Him. 51 And again I saw those sheep that they again erred and went many ways, and forsook that their house, and the Lord of the sheep called some from amongst the sheep and sent them to the sheep, 52 but the sheep began to slay them. And one of them was saved and was not slain, and it sped away and cried aloud over the sheep; and they sought to slay it, but the Lord of the sheep saved it from 53 the sheep, and brought it up to me, and caused it to dwell there. And many other sheep He sent to those sheep to testify unto them and lament over them. And after that I saw that when they forsook the house of the Lord and His tower they fell away entirely, and their eyes were blinded; and I saw the Lord of the sheep how He wrought much slaughter amongst them in their herds until 55 those sheep invited that slaughter and betrayed His place....

Called by YHWH and and sent by YHWH makes one an Apostle of YHWH.

 

[Assyrian]

The Book of Enoch is before the OT, and that is the place where He "said" I "will send them"...He did not say that in the OT. He said it in 1 Enoch.

Does Enoch say I will send to them prophets, and apostles, and some of them they shall kill and persecute, that the blood of all the prophets, that is being poured forth from the foundation of the world, may be required from this generation? Because if it does you have completely failed to point out the quotation. Does Enoch even say I will send apostles? It is difficult enough if Enoch is intertestamental, crazy if Enoch is as old as you claim, because the meaning we have of Apostle did not arise until the NT. Even when you find the word in earlier Greek, it simply meant a ship captain. Your claim to find Apostle in Enoch is a complete anachronism.

And in Enoch, apostles and prophets were to be sent of whom the Jews would slay some of -and persecute them.

Jesus said it, not I.

And he didn't say anything about Enoch.

Jesus speaks to the Jews;
Luke 11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
Therefore/this * * also/indeed said the wisdom of God, I will send * them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute/oppress with calamities : That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required/demanded back of this generation;
Verse 48 is past tense,

You never did answer my points about the past tense. It simply does not imply he is quoting a book written earlier.

Jesus expounded to the Jews that this is indeed what the Wisdom of God had said" they would do.
Jesus is the Apostle sent/ apostello by the Father to the Jews first, and also to the nations of the world:
Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent/apostello me, even so send/g3992/pempo I you.
Jesus sends His disciples as the Father has sent Him. He sends them to the Jew first, and also the nations of the world.

g652/apostle 1) a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders AV — apostle 78, messenger 2, he that is sent 1
from
G649 apostello 1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
from apo G575 and stello G4724 [- G2476/histemi]

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

Before Jesus came to the Jews, He sent prophets and Apsotles to them, as Enoch first prophesied He would do even before the nation of Israel arose in the world as the Elect People of the New Man name -in which name all souls in Adam who are redeemed, are saved.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

Apostolos does indeed come from the word apostellō, but that does not mean every one sent for any reason is an apostle, it is a different word with different connotations. If you look in the LXX you will find the verb apostellō in 480 verses, yet you would be hard pressed to find the noun apostolos even once. Why if so many people were sent, apostellō, are they not called apostles? Do you know the first occurrence of the verb apostellō in the LXX? Gen 8:7 And he sent forth a raven; and it went out, and did not return until the water was dried from off the earth. If the raven was sent apostellō, was the raven an apostle? Apostle, as Jesus used the word, is a NT term, it is not in the OT, and so far you have not shown it in Enoch.

Luke 11:49 Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,' 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation.
Why does Jesus talk of God sending prophets and apostles, if prophets by being sent apostellō were by definition apostles? Why if prophets and apostles were going to be killed, are that generation only held responsible for the blood of prophets? The simple reason is, no apostles had been killed yet, Jesus had only just instituted the role.

Enoch's dream vision before the flood is about the future people of the New Man name [which name was secret until it was revealed/given/invoked over Jacob], who would be elected as sons of God in that New Name: Jesus speaks of what Enoch prophesied in the vision and Jesus calls ENoch's writings "the Wisdom of God" -Enoch tells us often in his writings that he is given wisdom to preach and teach, from God.

Where does Jesus refer the book of Enoch as the Wisdom of God? Go on, I have shown you where he was quoting Exodus and I even lined up the two references so you can see where Jesus took the quotation from. Where is the quotation in Enoch you think Jesus is calling the wisdom of God. We have gone back and forth and you just keep making the same empty claims.

Called by YHWH and and sent by YHWH makes one an Apostle of YHWH.

1Cor 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? So tell me, are prophets and teachers not called and sent by God? If they are called and sent by God why are just the apostles called apostles.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Sound like a lot of stuff based on the OT there, the Son of Man in Daniel, the personification of Wisdom in Proverbs coming forth from God for the creation.

Jesus was never created. He is YHWH from the beginning. Jesus is not a woman who cohabits with the Father, either. Wisdom and Folly are both personified as women by Solomon, in Proverbs. Jesus Christ is not "lady Wisdom" in Proverbs.
Zion of the heavenlies is personified as a woman from the beginning. She is the Woman of Gen 3:15 whose Seed crushes the head of the serpent. She is the Woman who is seen as a star sign in Rev 12. She is the True Church, Jerusalem above, the "Mother of us all", as she is stated to be, in the NT.

As for why demons roam the earth, I don't think there is a specific NT teaching on that so you can't say there NT is based on Enoch.

There is no foundational doctrine for the demons in the OT or NT. They are just there, and not foundationally explained for the reason that Enoch has already explained them -and they all had Enoch to read, as Hannah herself proves with her psalm of praise, which is taken from the things written in 1 Enoch and never explained in the OT. The thrnes of Glory are not mentioned in the OT for the saints at all, which is in 1 Enoch. But Jesus and His Apostles and womb brothers, James and John and their mother, all had Enoch and read Enoch, and make mention of the things in 1 Enoch, which are not in the OT.

God speaks to Enoch and tells him to write to the Watchers who married daughters of Adam and got children by them, their doom and the doom of their offspring. In Enoch chapters 14-16 you can read these things, and then there is more, later, in other chapters.
The demons are to be disembodied nephillim, sons of the watchers/angels and daughters of Adam, as God told Enoch to report. Disembodied, they will roam earth until the Day of the coming of the Son of Man on His throne of Glory, when they will be removed from the earth and cast into the Abyss of fire.
They are to roam earth and tempt, torment, afflict, and seduce the sons of Adam, which is their food and drink, as God said to Enoch for Enoch to write, until the day they are cast into the lake of fire where they will be tormented forever.

When the man or men in whom the demons were, in the area of the Gaderenes in Decapolis, saw Jesus, [whichever Gospel account of it you read, for one says two demoniacs and the other says one demoniac] the demons asked Jesus if He was come to "torment them before the pre-appointed time". They got that from Enoch, when He wrote the words from the LORD for their fathers to know their end.
It is their doom to be cast into the Abyss of fire and tormented forever, as Enoch wrote. The Son of Man will send His angels to cast them there when He returns, and the demons in the man, or men, acknowledged their doom, as Enoch gave it in prophesy, in their statement and question to Jesus.


Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the Abyss/deep

They have a pre-appointed doom, as recorded from God by Enoch, but til then, they roam earth disembodied, tormenting, afflicting, and seducing and tempting the sons of Adam. The women offspring of the sons of God and daughters of Adam are the sirens in the earth, as Enoch reported they would be.
In Zechariah 5 two demons who are female sirens, as they are told about in 1 Enoch, are seen carrying the "iniquity" -the woman in the measuring basket- to set her on the base prepared for her in Shinar/Iraq.
[/quote]

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Why would the Sadducees use the Septuagint? Besides the Septuagint doesn't say angels, it says 'the sons of God', like the Hebrew does Gen 6:2 ἰδόντες δὲ οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ τὰς θυγατέρας τῶν ἀνθρώπων Anyway, you still haven't show where Jesus was quoting Enoch.

They all used the Septuagint, and the sons of God are the angels, in the Sepruagint, so they knew that Moses wrote that the angels married in earth; so you are faulty in your presumption.
Jesus states quite plainly to them that which only Enoch wrote, from the mouth of God, on the issue of angels in heaven not marrying; and on the resurrected saints being equals/like/companions/ of the angels in heaven -who "do not marry nor give in marraige". -You keep dissing the subject of Jesus' answer to them that in the Scripture they do not know, the angels in heaven do not marry and that the resurrected saints are like, as, companions with the angels in heaven who do not marry.

That is told of nowhere in Moses, but it is in Enoch. And you keep dissing the fact that the Saducces were already asking Jesus about what is written by Moses. It was Moses' writing they were talking about, so please do not claim that in Moses Jesus finds the answer which they do not know; that angels in heaven do not marry and that is written as Scripture. The Sadducees do not know that Scripture nor the Scripture that says the resurrected Saints are like the angels in heaven and so of course do not marry nor are they given in marraige.

Jesus read and used Enoch, and rebuked the Sadducees for not knowing it as Scripture.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

So are watchers mentioned in the NT, or the role or names of archangels other than Michael who is mentioned in Daniel?-.

Arch angel is Greek for chief angel. Arch is beginning, first. Sar is Hebrew for prince, ruler.

Yes. The archangels are in the NT.
The seven Archangels are Watchers, and the seven are the chiefs of the "Watchers". Michael is the Chief of the Chiefs. Watchers can appear as "men/geber" when they wish. They can take "wings" and fly swiftly, also. There are "millions" of Watchers, who are also called "Holy Ones". The seven stand before the Great Glory in the created temple and go in and out of that temple. A chief duty of Watchers is intercession before the Glory, for men. Redeemed believers are also intercessors before the glory, in Spirit. The Levitical priesthood typed the duties of the sons of God as intercessory priests, with the High Priest anointed with the oil of Messiah/Christ, to stand in His place as a type and shadow, on earth, of Him who was to come.

The Chief Watchers are typed in the Mennorah which stands before the Glory in the temple.
Daniel 10:13 states:... Miyka'el 'echad ri'shown sar "Michael, one of the chief princes" -

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

1 Enoch [Chapter 20]
1,2 And these are the names of the holy angels who watch.
Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is 3 over the world and over Tartarus.
Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4,
5 Raguel, one of the holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries.
Michael, one 6 of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind and over chaos. Saraqael, 7 one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit.
Gabriel, one of the holy 8 angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim.
Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.
Luk 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
In Revelation the seven chief angels going in and out of the temple for the judgments of earth are those who are named in 1 Enoch.

Jesus told us to watch and pray that we may be counted worthy to escape all the things coming on the earth in the tribulation and to stand before the Son of Man. That is referring to the priesthood of Believers when they are translated in bodies, for the Glory, and stand before Him in the heavenly temple as equal with the angels there, celebrating the consecration of their priesthood for a full week of years, with Him, there. This is typed in Levitucus 8.

two hundred Watchers -holy ones, ben elohym, remained in the bodies like men that they can take, and married daughters of Adam.

Enoch [Chapter 71]
1 And it came to pass after this that my spirit was translated
And it ascended into the heavens:
And I saw the holy sons of God.
They were stepping on flames of fire:
Their garments were white [and their raiment],
And their faces shone like snow.
2 And I saw two streams of fire,
And the light of that fire shone like hyacinth,
And I fell on my face before the Lord of Spirits.

3 And the angel Michael [one of the archangels] seized me by my right hand,
And lifted me up and led me forth into all the secrets,
And he showed me all the secrets of righteousness.
4 And he showed me all the secrets of the ends of the heaven,
And all the chambers of all the stars, and all the luminaries,
Whence they proceed before the face of the holy ones.
5 And he translated my spirit into the heaven of heavens,
And I saw there as it were a structure built of crystals,
And between those crystals tongues of living fire.
6 And my spirit saw the girdle which girt that house of fire,
And on its four sides were streams full of living fire,
And they girt that house.
7 And round about were Seraphin, Cherubic, and Ophannin:
And these are they who sleep not
And guard the throne of His glory.
8 And I saw angels who could not be counted,
A thousand thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand,
Encircling that house.
And Michael, and Raphael, and Gabriel, and Phanuel,
And the holy angels who are above the heavens,
Go in and out of that house.
9 And they came forth from that house,
And Michael and Gabriel, Raphael and Phanuel,
And many holy angels without number.
10 And with them the Head of Days,
His head white and pure as wool,
And His raiment indescribable.
11 And I fell on my face,
And my whole body became relaxed,
And my spirit was transfigured;
And I cried with a loud voice, . . .
with the spirit of power,
And blessed and glorified and extolled.
12 And these blessings which went forth out of my mouth were well pleasing before that Head of Days. And that Head of Days came with Michael and Gabriel, Raphael and Phanuel, thousands and ten thousands of angels without number.

Jer 4:16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, [that] watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah.

Dan 4:17 This matter [is] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Dan 4:23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and [let] his portion [be] with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;


Also, what became the Ethiopian Coptic Church in the NT times was composed of believing Jews who practiced circumcision and had their own copies of the ancient Enoch and other ancient books, before the Gospel came. They always had Enoch in Ethiopia, and they never followed Rome, and they always kept Enoch when certain men in a certain place banned Enoch, hundreds of years after it was called, and used as, Scripture,by the early NT believers.

 

[Assyrian]

Jesus was never created. He is YHWH from the beginning. Jesus is not a woman who cohabits with the Father, either. Wisdom and Folly are both personified as women by Solomon, in Proverbs. Jesus Christ is not "lady Wisdom" in Proverbs.
Zion of the heavenlies is personified as a woman from the beginning. She is the Woman of Gen 3:15 whose Seed crushes the head of the serpent. She is the Woman who is seen as a star sign in Rev 12. She is the True Church, Jerusalem above, the "Mother of us all", as she is stated to be, in the NT.

And yet Jesus described himself as a mother hen brooding over Jerusalem. You need to be a bit more relaxed with metaphors. It doesn't matter whether you like the messianic interpretation of Prov 8 or not, the fact is it is an interpretation that has been around a long time. Philo certainly saw the picture of Wisdom in Prov 8 as the Logos. Whether you agree with the interpreation or not, it is a source from the bible of a doctrine you think could only have come from the book of Enoch. And proverbs does not say wisdom was created.

There is no foundational doctrine for the demons in the OT or NT. They are just there, and not foundationally explained for the reason that Enoch has already explained them -and they all had Enoch to read,

So the writer of Enoch's explanation of demons is simply his own speculation and is unsupported by either the OT or NT.

as Hannah herself proves with her psalm of praise, which is taken from the things written in 1 Enoch and never explained in the OT.

Except Enoch was written long after 1Samuel.

The thrnes of Glory are not mentioned in the OT for the saints at all, which is in 1 Enoch. But Jesus and His Apostles and womb brothers, James and John and their mother, all had Enoch and read Enoch, and make mention of the things in 1 Enoch, which are not in the OT.

How can you say that? You have shown us the OT passage yourself. 1Sam 2:8 He raises up the poor out of the dust. He lifts up the needy from the dunghill, To make them sit with princes, and inherit the throne of glory, for the pillars of the earth are Yahweh's. He has set the world on them.

God speaks to Enoch and tells him to write to the Watchers who married daughters of Adam and got children by them, their doom and the doom of their offspring. In Enoch chapters 14-16 you can read these things, and then there is more, later, in other chapters.
The demons are to be disembodied nephillim, sons of the watchers/angels and daughters of Adam, as God told Enoch to report. Disembodied, they will roam earth until the Day of the coming of the Son of Man on His throne of Glory, when they will be removed from the earth and cast into the Abyss of fire.
They are to roam earth and tempt, torment, afflict, and seduce the sons of Adam, which is their food and drink, as God said to Enoch for Enoch to write, until the day they are cast into the lake of fire where they will be tormented forever.

When the man or men in whom the demons were, in the area of the Gaderenes in Decapolis, saw Jesus, [whichever Gospel account of it you read, for one says two demoniacs and the other says one demoniac] the demons asked Jesus if He was come to "torment them before the pre-appointed time". They got that from Enoch, when He wrote the words from the LORD for their fathers to know their end.

So your have the demons referring to Enoch, or maybe they just read [FONT=&quot]Job 4:18 Even in his servants he puts no trust, and his angels he charges with error. [/FONT]Or Psalm 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment... 6 I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; 7 nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations!
But even if the demon had read Enoch, that is demons. What you need to do is show us Jesus quoting Enoch as scripture.

As I have said before there is a lot of theology common to many Jews of the intertestamental period and the book of Enoch. That does not mean Enoch was scripture.

It is their doom to be cast into the Abyss of fire and tormented forever, as Enoch wrote. The Son of Man will send His angels to cast them there when He returns, and the demons in the man, or men, acknowledged their doom, as Enoch gave it in prophesy, in their statement and question to Jesus.

Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the Abyss/deep

They have a pre-appointed doom, as recorded from God by Enoch, but til then, they roam earth disembodied, tormenting, afflicting, and seducing and tempting the sons of Adam. The women offspring of the sons of God and daughters of Adam are the sirens in the earth, as Enoch reported they would be.

In Zechariah 5 two demons who are female sirens, as they are told about in 1 Enoch, are seen carrying the "iniquity" -the woman in the measuring basket- to set her on the base prepared for her in Shinar/Iraq.

It is worth pointing out that Zechariah mentions nothing about sirens or the book of Enoch.

They all used the Septuagint, and the sons of God are the angels, in the Sepruagint, so they knew that Moses wrote that the angels married in earth; so you are faulty in your presumption.

As I quoted in my reply the Septuagint says
Gen 6:2 ἰδόντες δὲ οἱ υἱοὶ τοῦ θεοῦ τὰς θυγατέρας τῶν ἀνθρώπων
Tranliterated:...... hoi huio tou theou
that is: .............. the sons of God
Though why the Sadducess would be using a Greek translation I don't know, or why you think they would consider a Greek translation inspired rather than the Hebrew. But even then the LXX says sons of God not angels. I know that some Jews interpreted it as angels, but then again others didn't. As the Sadducees rejected the angelology of the Pharisees, they would hardly have gone with the angelic interpretation of Gen 6.

Now if you look in Job in the LXX, the sons of God are translated as angel. But this is Job. The Sadducees only considered the Pentateuch as scripture. Why should the consider a translation as authoritative of a book they didn't even consider scripture?

Jesus states quite plainly to them that which only Enoch wrote, from the mouth of God, on the issue of angels in heaven not marrying; and on the resurrected saints being equals/like/companions/ of the angels in heaven -who "do not marry nor give in marraige". -You keep dissing the subject of Jesus' answer to them that in the Scripture they do not know, the angels in heaven do not marry and that the resurrected saints are like, as, companions with the angels in heaven who do not marry.

That is told of nowhere in Moses, but it is in Enoch. And you keep dissing the fact that the Saducces were already asking Jesus about what is written by Moses. It was Moses' writing they were talking about, so please do not claim that in Moses Jesus finds the answer which they do not know; that angels in heaven do not marry and that is written as Scripture. The Sadducees do not know that Scripture nor the Scripture that says the resurrected Saints are like the angels in heaven and so of course do not marry nor are they given in marraige.

Jesus read and used Enoch, and rebuked the Sadducees for not knowing it as Scripture.

Jesus rebuked them for not knowing the power of God or the scriptures and quoted Exodus as scripture. He did not quote Enoch as scripture.

He showed how their argument about marriage was wrong by explaining more about the resurrection. He did not attempt to support his point by quoting scripture outside the Pentateuch, or any of the non canonical writings. He simply stated what the resurrection was going to be like. He didn't need to back it up, it was a silly argument to start with and his explanation of the power of the resurrection dealt with their objections. What he did instead was go straight for their main point, their rejection of the resurrection itself, and show how it was contradicted by the scriptures they themselves accepted. He established the resurrection by quoting from Exodus.

I have shown you where Jesus quoted Exodus. Can you show me where he quoted Enoch?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

And yet Jesus described himself as a mother hen brooding over Jerusalem. You need to be a bit more relaxed with metaphors. It doesn't matter whether you like the messianic interpretation of Prov 8 or not, the fact is it is an interpretation that has been around a long time.

Philo certainly saw the picture of Wisdom in Prov 8 as the Logos. Whether you agree with the interpreation or not, it is a source from the bible of a doctrine you think could only have come from the book of Enoch. And proverbs does not say wisdom was created.

Philo is not one to get one's doctrines of Christ from.
The only people I know who believe wisdom personified as a woman in Proverbs are the arians, which includes the Watchtower and unitarians and so forth.
to claim that Jesus Christ is Wisdom, personified as a woman, in Proverbs is heretical, IMO, and shows a complete lack of understanding of Bible doctrine by anyone making the claim.

Proverbs 8 does say Wisdom was " possessed" and the word also means created, which is why the Watchtower and others who deny the Deity of Jesus Christ are so gleeful to hear folk like you agree with them, that Jesus is a created being, instead of the Creator.
Gesenius's Lexicon (Help)

How can you say that? You have shown us the OT passage yourself. 1Sam 2:8 He raises up the poor out of the dust. He lifts up the needy from the dunghill, To make them sit with princes, and inherit the throne of glory, for the pillars of the earth are Yahweh's. He has set the world on them.

Where in the OT is the foundational doctrine of the throne of glory for the saints to inherit? Who gives it to them? What is it? How do they acquire it? When do they acquire it? -The foundation is missing of that doctrine in the OT, just as the foundation for the Lake of fire and Sheol below earth are also missing in the OT because Enoch had already laid them out completely, in his "wisdom of God" writings given him to write for all generations of the world, by the Lord of Glory, when the angels took him on the tours of heaven and earth and showed him all things that are and that are to be.

For Hannah to just praise God for something without any foundation for the doctrine is not something one can make a doctrine of. There has to be doctrine laid by YHWH already, for it to be spoken of, without being laid out. Since Enoch laid it out in his "wisdom of God" writings, then Moses, Jesus, and all authors of the OT and NT did not re-write them when they spoke of them, nor did they re-teach about them when they made mention of them.

 

[Assyrian]

Arch angel is Greek for chief angel. Arch is beginning, first. Sar is Hebrew for prince, ruler.

And sar is translated into Greek as archon. An angel who a sar in Daniel, is an angelic archon in Greek, arch-angel.

Yes. The archangels are in the NT.

So where are these archangel in the NT? You go into a great detail after this but fail to mention the NT Archangels. Where are archangels mentioned in Revelation other than Michael? There are seven angels but seven is a common symbolic number especially in Hebrew apocalyptic literature, and as you point out there is probably a connection with the Levitical priesthood Heb 8:5, for example between the seven priests with their trumpets who went before the ark in Josh 6:4 and the seven angels with the trumpets in Revelation. But the angels in Revelation are not called archangels. The only archangels named in the NT are the ones we find in Daniel. Enoch's list of Archangels with their names and duties is completely ignored.

The seven Archangels are Watchers, and the seven are the chiefs of the "Watchers". Michael is the Chief of the Chiefs. Watchers can appear as "men/geber" when they wish. They can take "wings" and fly swiftly, also. There are "millions" of Watchers, who are also called "Holy Ones". The seven stand before the Great Glory in the created temple and go in and out of that temple. A chief duty of Watchers is intercession before the Glory, for men. Redeemed believers are also intercessors before the glory, in Spirit. The Levitical priesthood typed the duties of the sons of God as intercessory priests, with the High Priest anointed with the oil of Messiah/Christ, to stand in His place as a type and shadow, on earth, of Him who was to come.

The Chief Watchers are typed in the Mennorah which stands before the Glory in the temple.
Daniel 10:13 states:... Miyka'el 'echad ri'shown sar "Michael, one of the chief princes" -

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

1 Enoch [Chapter 20]
1,2 And these are the names of the holy angels who watch.
Uriel, one of the holy angels, who is 3 over the world and over Tartarus.
Raphael, one of the holy angels, who is over the spirits of men. 4,
5 Raguel, one of the holy angels who takes vengeance on the world of the luminaries.
Michael, one 6 of the holy angels, to wit, he that is set over the best part of mankind and over chaos. Saraqael, 7 one of the holy angels, who is set over the spirits, who sin in the spirit.
Gabriel, one of the holy 8 angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim.
Remiel, one of the holy angels, whom God set over those who rise.
Luk 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
In Revelation the seven chief angels going in and out of the temple for the judgments of earth are those who are named in 1 Enoch.

Jesus told us to watch and pray that we may be counted worthy to escape all the things coming on the earth in the tribulation and to stand before the Son of Man. That is referring to the priesthood of Believers when they are translated in bodies, for the Glory, and stand before Him in the heavenly temple as equal with the angels there, celebrating the consecration of their priesthood for a full week of years, with Him, there. This is typed in Levitucus 8.

two hundred Watchers -holy ones, ben elohym, remained in the bodies like men that they can take, and married daughters of Adam.

Jer 4:16 Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, [that] watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah.

Dan 4:17 This matter [is] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Dan 4:23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and [let] his portion [be] with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;


Also, what became the Ethiopian Coptic Church in the NT times was composed of believing Jews who practiced circumcision and had their own copies of the ancient Enoch and other ancient books, before the Gospel came. They always had Enoch in Ethiopia, and they never followed Rome, and they always kept Enoch when certain men in a certain place banned Enoch, hundreds of years after it was called, and used as, Scripture,by the early NT believers.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

And sar is translated into Greek as archon. An angel who a sar in Daniel, is an angelic archon in Greek, arch-angel.

So where are these archangel in the NT? You go into a great detail after this but fail to mention the NT Archangels. Where are archangels mentioned in Revelation other than Michael? ...

No sar is not arch in Greek.
You asked me -

Originally Posted by Assyrian

So are watchers mentioned in the NT, or the role or names of archangels other than Michael who is mentioned in Daniel?-.
​

And I replied-

Yes. The archangels are in the NT.
The seven Archangels are Watchers, and the seven are the chiefs of the "Watchers". Michael is the Chief of the Chiefs. Watchers can appear as "men/geber" when they wish. They can take "wings" and fly swiftly, also. There are "millions" of Watchers, who are also called "Holy Ones". The seven stand before the Great Glory in the created temple and go in and out of that temple. A chief duty of Watchers is intercession before the Glory, for men. ...

The archangels are watchers.
The watchers are headed by seven chiefs. Michael is the chief of the chiefs.

Yes, Watchers are in the NT. Two are named and countless ones are not named and seven are seen in the temple in Revelation, and the seven spirits who stand before the throne are the seven archangels whom Enoch named and saw.

-Oh, I forgot to add this: and arche is ro'sh, in Hebrew, not sar.

Septuagint translators used fourteen different Greek words to translate ro’sh:
1. Archon (meaning ruler, commander, leader________________109 times
2. Archegos (captain, leader, chief, prince) ____________________10 times
3. Arche (authority, magistrate, officer) ________________________9 times
4. Hegeomai (to be a leader, to rule, have dominion) _____________9 times
5. Protos (first, foremost) ___________________________________6 times
6. Patriarches_____________________________________________3 times
7. Chiliarches (commander)__________________________________3 times
8. Archipules (chief of a tribe) ________________________________2 times
9. Archipatriotes (head of a family)____________________________1 time
10. Archo (verb; ruler, be ruler of)______________________________1 time
11. Megas, emgale, mega (great, mighty, important)_______________1 time
12. Proegeomai (take the lead, go first, lead the way)______________1 time
13. Prototokos (firstborn or first in rank)_________________________1 time
14. Kephale (where head can mean top or crown)_________________¬_8 times
Kephale (in head-tail metaphor)______________________________4 times
Kephale (where manuscripts have variant readings) ______________6 times

Ro’sh (not translated)_______________________________________6 times
http://betterexegesis.blogspot.com/

 

[Assyrian]

No sar is not arch in Greek
...
-Oh, I forgot to add this: and arche is ro'sh, in Hebrew, not sar.

Septuagint translators used fourteen different Greek words to translate ro’sh:
1. Archon (meaning ruler, commander, leader________________109 times
2. Archegos (captain, leader, chief, prince) ____________________10 times
3. Arche (authority, magistrate, officer) ________________________9 times
4. Hegeomai (to be a leader, to rule, have dominion) _____________9 times
5. Protos (first, foremost) ___________________________________6 times
6. Patriarches_____________________________________________3 times
7. Chiliarches (commander)__________________________________3 times
8. Archipules (chief of a tribe) ________________________________2 times
9. Archipatriotes (head of a family)____________________________1 time
10. Archo (verb; ruler, be ruler of)______________________________1 time
11. Megas, emgale, mega (great, mighty, important)_______________1 time
12. Proegeomai (take the lead, go first, lead the way)______________1 time
13. Prototokos (firstborn or first in rank)_________________________1 time
14. Kephale (where head can mean top or crown)_________________¬_8 times
Kephale (in head-tail metaphor)______________________________4 times
Kephale (where manuscripts have variant readings) ______________6 times

Ro’sh (not translated)_______________________________________6 times
http://betterexegesis.blogspot.com/

How rosh is translated is irrelevant. The word we were looking at is sar which is used in Daniel to describe Michael as well as the angelic Prince of Persia and Prince of Greece. It is translated in the LXX as archon. Other places where sar is used to describe human rulers, it is translated as the compound archieunochos chief of the eunuchs, and archistrategos for prince of the host. It is a really short step for an angelic archon, to form the compound arch-angelos.

You asked me -

And I replied-

Yes. The archangels are in the NT.
The seven Archangels are Watchers, and the seven are the chiefs of the "Watchers". Michael is the Chief of the Chiefs. Watchers can appear as "men/geber" when they wish. They can take "wings" and fly swiftly, also. There are "millions" of Watchers, who are also called "Holy Ones". The seven stand before the Great Glory in the created temple and go in and out of that temple. A chief duty of Watchers is intercession before the Glory, for men. ...

The archangels are watchers.
The watchers are headed by seven chiefs. Michael is the chief of the chiefs.

Yes, Watchers are in the NT. Two are named and countless ones are not named and seven are seen in the temple in Revelation, and the seven spirits who stand before the throne are the seven archangels whom Enoch named and saw.
​

Watchers are not mentioned in the NT. It is possible the watchers in Daniel are archangels, but that is not mentioned in the bible either. Of course as you say there may be millions of watchers, so they are not even identical to the archangels in the NT. In the NT only one archangel is mentioned by name as an archangel, Michael, though arguably by referring to an archangel in 1Thess 4:16, there may be more than one. Enoch refers to Gabriel as an archangel, but he isn't given that title in either the OT or NT. Basically the NT completely ignores all the detailed job descriptions and names of archangels the book of Enoch comes up with and sticks to what we are told about them in the OT.

Interestingly The NT seems to have a lot more time for the theology of the book of Enoch, or at least with the shared common theology we see in Enoch, than it has for all the fanciful visions in the book.

 

[shernren]

Yes, Watchers are in the NT.

And in more recent literature too.

Ging gang goolie goolie goolie goolie - watcher! -
Ging gang goo, ging gang goo ...

 

[yeshuasavedme]

How rosh is translated is irrelevant. The word we were looking at is sar which is used in Daniel to describe Michael as well as the angelic Prince of Persia and Prince of Greece. It is translated in the LXX as archon. Other places where sar is used to describe human rulers, it is translated as the compound archieunochos chief of the eunuchs, and archistrategos for prince of the host. It is a really short step for an angelic archon, to form the compound arch-angelos..

I pasted this from Daniel, in a prior post to you;

Daniel 10:13 states:... Miyka'el 'echad ri'shown sar "Michael, one of the chief princes"

--note that "ri'shown" is the word that is translated "chief", which goes back to the Hebrew "ro'sh", which corresponds to the word "arche". "Sar" is still translated as "prince", which is "ruler", etc.

Note that the sar of Persia being fought in the heavenlies is an "angel" set over Persia;
Dan 10:13 But the sar of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

There are seventy sars [also called Gebers/Rulers/Princes/elohym/sons of God=ben Elohym] set over the nations of the world, after Babel, and Michael is the 71st Sar, and is over the people of Shem through Eber, then through AbraHAm, then through Isac, then through Jacob.
Jacob got that secret, formerly hidden in heaven name invoked over him, which is the name of the Son of Man who was in heaven, and who was with God and who was God, and who was to come.
Jacob received that name as a sign of the promised adoption into the name of the New Man which was to come. And the Son of Man is come incarnate, and has atoned for all born in Adam, so that they could be adopted into His New Man name.

Michael, a chief Sar, and the Chief of the Chiefs, is over the nation and seed of "Israel", then, which is the Name of the New Man who is now come to be the New =second, Man and the "Everlasting Father" [Isa 9:6], of the second Man creation, by His adoption into His Living Spirit [which Spirit is "Christ/Messiah/Anointed]of whosoever calls upon the name of the LORD.
We call His name the transliterated "Jesus", which means "Salvation"; but the Hebrew name for Him given to Joseph and Mary for His people to call Him is the Hebrew "Howshea"= "Salvation", for He saves His people from their sins; but the Father calls His name "Israel", which was the secret name of the Son of Man in heaven, seen by only Ene was seen by Enoch, only, with God and who was God, and who was to come.
He is come in second creation human being flesh, and in whose image Adam is made, as to the bodily form [Genesis 1:26-28; Romans 5:14].
Enoch, alone, gives the foundational doctrines of the Son of Man in heaven. Moses did not need to give those again, as Enoch was already written for all the generations of the world.
Only the people of the New Man name got the Living Oracles of His Person and work, from Moses, to rehearse until they are all fulfilled.
They -His namesake people- are the "sign nation" of His Person and work for the world [to the Jew first as keepers of the vineyard, and to the Gentiles last] -but those people of His name who rejected Him missed the message/doctrine of His Person, as the Oracles teach them, because their eyes were blinded by YHWH on purpose, as Isaiah 9 tells us, when Isaiah was sent as an apostle to the namesake people of the New Man name, and Isaiah 28-29 further speak of their seers being covered and hidden.
The plowmen [the apostles and prophets sent tot he people of the New Man name] plowed with the message of the Son of Man who was to come, and whose name they bore, as a sign of the adoption He would bring for the dead [in the Adam spirit, multiplied as commanded, seed].
Isa 28:24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
Isa 28:25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?

When the Son of Man was "laid in Zion" -incarnated in second Man prepared flesh of human being kind- then the Seed was no longer "hid in heaven, covered", no longer "in the "barn"; and from the day of His incarnation on the 24th day of the ninth month, all creation is blessed -backwards and forwards from the date of the incarnation of the Son of Man who is come down from heaven [=the Barn, where the Seed was covered/hidden from the beginning of the world].

In Haggai 2 the "double words of Wisdom" [Job 11:6 ... the secrets of wisdom, that [they are] double to that which is] speak of the date of the laying of the Foundation Stone of the "second temple". The prophecy is only fulfilled totally and finally as it is given, in the laying of the Foundation Stone of the second temple of human being kind. The New Man is the second temple; and Jesus Christ -the Son of Man come incarnate- is the Foundation Stone laid in Zion on the 24th day of the ninth month, making His birth date exactly nine months later, at the beginning of Tabernacles. At Tabernacles He came as "Emmanuel tabernacling among/with us"; And that also made His circumsion on the last day of Tabernacles, which signs the 8th day of creation, and the New Beginning [which circumsicsion given to Abraham's seed to wear from he 8th day of their birth until it is fulfilled signs, when Adam spirit is cut off from multiplying forever, in the regeneration of the resurrected and translated flesh of the adopted son of God in the New Man name.

Hag 2:18 Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth [month, even] from the day that the foundation of the LORD'S temple was laid, consider [it].
Hag 2:19 Is the seed yet in the barn? yea, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree, hath not brought forth: from this day [reaching backwards and forwards] will I bless [you].

When the Son of Man came in flesh, the Seed was "cast into the ground", which Seed had been reserved in heaven -the barn", and Enoch saw the Holy Seed there; but many were blinded to the message, and would not be born again in Spirit, as Jesus taught that every one born in Adam must be [John 3], to inherit the kingdom of God in the "New Man name".
Second birth was offered to the Jew first, as the keepers of the vineyard, when He came, and also to the Gentiles. Salvation is all about being born again into the Name of the Son of Man who is come in flesh to Ransom us from the dead and hopeless state we are born in, in Adam - the cut off former son of God.

Have you been born again in the Living Spirit of the New Man name? If so; then you have an inheritance in the regeneration of all things as a son of God in the New Man name. If not; then you have a spot reserved in the lake of fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels -and all the rejects in Adam; as Enoch taught about when he was shown the Abyss of complete condemnation and as Jesus spoke of in the manner which it is revealed and written in Enoch, only.
All in Adam cast into that Abyss are eternally never dying worms, with no hope for the change of morphosis that the redeemed from Adam do receive, in the resurrecction of the body. Those who are cast into the Abyss of everlasting fire which is the outer darkness forever are only rejects because they rejected opr blasphemed the Light that lights every man that comes into the world [in the hope that they may seek God].

 

[Assyrian]

I pasted this from Daniel, in a prior post to you;

--note that "ri'shown" is the word that is translated "chief", which goes back to the Hebrew "ro'sh", which corresponds to the word "arche". "Sar" is still translated as "prince", which is "ruler", etc.

Note that the sar of Persia being fought in the heavenlies is an "angel" set over Persia;
Dan 10:13 But the sar of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Rishown may be derived from the word rosh, but it is still a different word with a different, if related, meaning. It is not a noun, as in Sitting Bull's title 'Chief' it is an adjective or adverb, usually translated 'first'. Remember the Spanish Inquisition? Our chief weapon is surprise... surprise and fear...fear and surprise... It doesn't mean their weapon wore feathers and war paint, it means their first and foremost weapon. Rishown is not a title like rosh, it is an adjective. In the LXX it is translated 'first' proton while sar is translated as archon, the way it is for all of the angelic sars in Daniel.

There are seventy sars [also called Gebers/Rulers/Princes/elohym/sons of God=ben Elohym] set over the nations of the world, after Babel, and Michael is the 71st Sar, and is over the people of Shem through Eber, then through AbraHAm, then through Isac, then through Jacob.

Interestingly a doctrine based on a variant reading of Deuteronomy found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint. Deut 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
The LXX says according to the number of the angels of God.
While the Massoretic says according to the number of the children of Israel.

Does the bible say there were 70 Gentile nations and so 71 bene elohim?

Jacob got that secret, formerly hidden in heaven name invoked over him, which is the name of the Son of Man who was in heaven, and who was with God and who was God, and who was to come.
Jacob received that name as a sign of the promised adoption into the name of the New Man which was to come. And the Son of Man is come incarnate, and has atoned for all born in Adam, so that they could be adopted into His New Man name.

Michael, a chief Sar, and the Chief of the Chiefs, is over the nation and seed of "Israel", then, which is the Name of the New Man who is now come to be the New =second, Man and the "Everlasting Father" [Isa 9:6], of the second Man creation, by His adoption into His Living Spirit [which Spirit is "Christ/Messiah/Anointed]of whosoever calls upon the name of the LORD.
We call His name the transliterated "Jesus", which means "Salvation"; but the Hebrew name for Him given to Joseph and Mary for His people to call Him is the Hebrew "Howshea"= "Salvation", for He saves His people from their sins; but the Father calls His name "Israel", which was the secret name of the Son of Man in heaven, seen by only Ene was seen by Enoch, only, with God and who was God, and who was to come.
He is come in second creation human being flesh, and in whose image Adam is made, as to the bodily form [Genesis 1:26-28; Romans 5:14].
Enoch, alone, gives the foundational doctrines of the Son of Man in heaven. Moses did not need to give those again, as Enoch was already written for all the generations of the world.
Only the people of the New Man name got the Living Oracles of His Person and work, from Moses, to rehearse until they are all fulfilled.
They -His namesake people- are the "sign nation" of His Person and work for the world [to the Jew first as keepers of the vineyard, and to the Gentiles last] -but those people of His name who rejected Him missed the message/doctrine of His Person, as the Oracles teach them, because their eyes were blinded by YHWH on purpose, as Isaiah 9 tells us, when Isaiah was sent as an apostle to the namesake people of the New Man name, and Isaiah 28-29 further speak of their seers being covered and hidden.
The plowmen [the apostles and prophets sent tot he people of the New Man name] plowed with the message of the Son of Man who was to come, and whose name they bore, as a sign of the adoption He would bring for the dead [in the Adam spirit, multiplied as commanded, seed].
Isa 28:24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
Isa 28:25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?

When the Son of Man was "laid in Zion" -incarnated in second Man prepared flesh of human being kind- then the Seed was no longer "hid in heaven, covered", no longer "in the "barn"; and from the day of His incarnation on the 24th day of the ninth month, all creation is blessed -backwards and forwards from the date of the incarnation of the Son of Man who is come down from heaven [=the Barn, where the Seed was covered/hidden from the beginning of the world].

In Haggai 2 the "double words of Wisdom" [Job 11:6 ... the secrets of wisdom, that [they are] double to that which is] speak of the date of the laying of the Foundation Stone of the "second temple". The prophecy is only fulfilled totally and finally as it is given, in the laying of the Foundation Stone of the second temple of human being kind. The New Man is the second temple; and Jesus Christ -the Son of Man come incarnate- is the Foundation Stone laid in Zion on the 24th day of the ninth month, making His birth date exactly nine months later, at the beginning of Tabernacles. At Tabernacles He came as "Emmanuel tabernacling among/with us"; And that also made His circumsion on the last day of Tabernacles, which signs the 8th day of creation, and the New Beginning [which circumsicsion given to Abraham's seed to wear from he 8th day of their birth until it is fulfilled signs, when Adam spirit is cut off from multiplying forever, in the regeneration of the resurrected and translated flesh of the adopted son of God in the New Man name.

Hag 2:18 Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth [month, even] from the day that the foundation of the LORD'S temple was laid, consider [it].
Hag 2:19 Is the seed yet in the barn? yea, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree, hath not brought forth: from this day [reaching backwards and forwards] will I bless [you].

When the Son of Man came in flesh, the Seed was "cast into the ground", which Seed had been reserved in heaven -the barn", and Enoch saw the Holy Seed there; but many were blinded to the message, and would not be born again in Spirit, as Jesus taught that every one born in Adam must be [John 3], to inherit the kingdom of God in the "New Man name".
Second birth was offered to the Jew first, as the keepers of the vineyard, when He came, and also to the Gentiles. Salvation is all about being born again into the Name of the Son of Man who is come in flesh to Ransom us from the dead and hopeless state we are born in, in Adam - the cut off former son of God.

Have you been born again in the Living Spirit of the New Man name? If so; then you have an inheritance in the regeneration of all things as a son of God in the New Man name. If not; then you have a spot reserved in the lake of fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels -and all the rejects in Adam; as Enoch taught about when he was shown the Abyss of complete condemnation and as Jesus spoke of in the manner which it is revealed and written in Enoch, only.
All in Adam cast into that Abyss are eternally never dying worms, with no hope for the change of morphosis that the redeemed from Adam do receive, in the resurrecction of the body. Those who are cast into the Abyss of everlasting fire which is the outer darkness forever are only rejects because they rejected opr blasphemed the Light that lights every man that comes into the world [in the hope that they may seek God].

I did not follow most of that, but yes I am born again of the Holy Spirit and Jesus has a new name for me written on a white stone (probably a metaphorical white stone but true all the same) kept in heaven for me.

Incidentally, are you saying Jesus is the archangel Michael?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Rishown may be derived from the word rosh, but it is still a different word with a different, if related, meaning. It is not a noun

In Daniel 10:13 ri'shown is listed as a N/A part of speech. It is from ro'sh at its root, through ri'shah 1) beginning time, early time.

There is no other place in the OT where Michael is spoken of as "archangel" but in Daniel 10. So you have to admit that Jesus' womb brother, Jude, used Enoch [which he most certainly did] in speaking of Michael as archangel. We know Jude read 1 Enoch, for he quotes a passage from it and he also references it on the chaining of the fornnicating angels.

You also have to admit that Paul used Enoch in speaking of Michael as archangel, or you have to admit that Daniel 10:13 was understood, by him, as archangel. -which is it? I say both.

Septuagint translators used fourteen different Greek words to translate ro’sh:
1. Archon (meaning ruler, commander, leader________________109 times
2. Archegos (captain, leader, chief, prince) ____________________10 times
3. Arche (authority, magistrate, officer) ________________________9 times
4. Hegeomai (to be a leader, to rule, have dominion) _____________9 times
5. Protos (first, foremost) ___________________________________6 times
6. Patriarches_____________________________________________3 times
7. Chiliarches (commander)__________________________________3 times
8. Archipules (chief of a tribe) ________________________________2 times
9. Archipatriotes (head of a family)____________________________1 time
10. Archo (verb; ruler, be ruler of)______________________________1 time
11. Megas, emgale, mega (great, mighty, important)_______________1 time
12. Proegeomai (take the lead, go first, lead the way)______________1 time
13. Prototokos (firstborn or first in rank)_________________________1 time
14. Kephale (where head can mean top or crown)_________________¬_8 times
Kephale (in head-tail metaphor)______________________________4 times
Kephale (where manuscripts have variant readings) ______________6 times

Ro’sh (not translated)_______________________________________6 times
http://betterexegesis.blogspot.com/
​

 

[Assyrian]

In Daniel 10:13 ri'shown is listed as a N/A part of speech. It is from ro'sh at its root, through ri'shah 1) beginning time, early time.

There is no other place in the OT where Michael is spoken of as "archangel" but in Daniel 10.

Isn't Daniel 10 enough? I have no idea what you are talking about with 'N/A part of speech' but clearly the title prince in Hebrew was translated as archon when Jews translated this angelic title into Greek and archon and archo regularly formed compound like archieunochos archistrategos and archangelos. The title archangel is drawn from Daniel.

So you have to admit that Jesus' womb brother, Jude, used Enoch [which he most certainly did] in speaking of Michael as archangel. We know Jude read 1 Enoch, for he quotes a passage from it and he also references it on the chaining of the fornnicating angels.

You would certainly be on stronger ground speaking about Jude quoting from Enoch than when you tried to show Jesus did. But I supposed that is the point. You know that claiming our Lord Jesus Christ quote Enoch would be much more likely to convince us the book of Enoch is canonical. Instead Jesus seemed to accept the Jewish Canon that ran from Genesis to Chronicles when he listed all the martyred saints from Abel to Zechariah.

You also have to admit that Paul used Enoch in speaking of Michael as archangel, or you have to admit that Daniel 10:13 was understood, by him, as archangel. -which is it? I say both.

Daniel 10:13, 10:21 and 12:1. But yes he certainly understood archangel as the Greek for an angelic sar. I had a look at how the NT is translated into Hebrew, archangel is translated as sar ha'melachim, prince of angels. Now given that you think the book of Enoch was written by Enoch and handed to Methuselah before the flood, how do you think Enoch came up with a koine Greek word archangelos?

 

[Assyrian]

dp

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Interestingly a doctrine based on a variant reading of Deuteronomy found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint. Deut 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
The LXX says according to the number of the angels of God.
While the Massoretic says according to the number of the children of Israel.

Does the bible say there were 70 Gentile nations and so 71 bene elohim?

Seventy languages mingled from the one mother tongue -plus the mother tongue; each tongue was a "family/nation/tribe" who had a heavenly sar over him. Michael was over those descended from Noah who would be the people of the New Man name.
At Tabernacles there were atonements made for the seventy nations, byt he Levitical priesthood, which included all the Gentiles dispersed from the one tongue at Babel, whose tongues have each grown up like trees, with branches and leaves on the branches to over 6,000 tongues.

TheTalmud (BT Sukkah 55:B) teaches that the seventy bulls that were offered in the Holy Temple served as atonement for the seventy nations of the world. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ns+at+Tabernacles&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

Jasher =The Upright Record, chapter 9:31-39
...And they built the tower and the city, and they did this thing daily until many days and years were elapsed.
And God said to the seventy angels who stood foremost before him, to those who were near to him, saying, Come let us descend and confuse their tongues, that one man shall not understand the language of his neighbor, and they did so unto them.
And from that day following, they forgot each man his neighbor's tongue, and they could not understand to speak in one tongue, and when the builder took from the hands of his neighbor lime or stone which he did not order, the builder would cast it away and throw it upon his neighbor, that he would die.
And they did so many days, and they killed many of them in this manner.

1. And the Lord smote the three divisions that were there, and he punished them according to their works and designs; those who said, We will ascend to heaven and serve our gods, became like apes and elephants; and those who said, We will smite the heaven with arrows, the Lord killed them, one man through the hand of his neighbor; and the third division of those who said, We will ascend to heaven and fight against him, the Lord scattered them throughout the earth.
   And those who were left amongst them, when they knew and understood the evil which was coming upon them, they forsook the building, and they also became scattered upon the face of the whole earth.
   And they ceased building the city and the tower; therefore he called that place Babel, for there the Lord confounded the Language of the whole earth; behold it was at the east of the land of Shinar.
   And as to the tower which the sons of men built, the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up one third part thereof, and a fire also descended from heaven and burned another third, and the other third is left to this day, and it is of that part which was aloft, and its circumference is three days' walk.
   And many of the sons of men died in that tower, a people without number.
   

1 Enoch -on the seventy Sars set over the nations at the division of the tongues.
Chapter 90 verse 21, shows that one of the archangels wrote the records of the daily deeds of the heavenly sars, in a book which was givent o the LORD on His throne. For those deeds they shall be judged when the LORD comes to cleanse the earth of all things that offend, and to set up His millennial kingdom;

59 And He called seventy shepherds, and cast those sheep to them that they might pasture them, and He spake to the shepherds and their companions: ' Let each individual of you pasture the sheep 60 henceforward, and everything that I shall command you that do ye. And I will deliver them over unto you duly numbered, and tell you which of them are to be destroyed-and them destroy ye.'

And 61 He gave over unto them those sheep. And He called another and spake unto him: ' Observe and mark everything that the shepherds will do to those sheep; for they will destroy more of them than 62 I have commanded them. And every excess and the destruction which will be wrought through the shepherds, record (namely) how many they destroy according to my command, and how many according to their own caprice: record against every individual shepherd all the destruction he 63 effects.
And read out before me by number how many they destroy, and how many they deliver over for destruction, that I may have this as a testimony against them, and know every deed of the shepherds, that I may comprehend and see what they do, whether or not they abide by my 64 command which I have commanded them. But they shall not know it, and thou shalt not declare it to them, nor admonish them, but only record against each individual all the destruction which 65 the shepherds effect each in his time and lay it all before me.'


And I saw till those shepherds pastured in their season, and they began to slay and to destroy more than they were bidden, and ...

...And thus in the vision I saw that one who wrote, how he wrote down every one that was destroyed by those shepherds, day by day, and carried up and laid down and showed actually the whole book to the Lord of the sheep-(even) everything that they had done, and all that each one of them had made 71 away with, and all that they had given over to destruction. And the book was read before the Lord of the sheep, and He took the book from his hand and read it and sealed it and laid it down. 72 And forthwith I saw how the shepherds pastured for twelve hours, and behold three of those sheep turned back and came and entered and began to build up all that had fallen down of that 73 house; but the wild boars tried to hinder them, but they were not able.
...
And this one who wrote the book carried it up, and showed it and read it before the Lord of the sheep, and implored Him on their account, and besought Him on their account as he showed Him all the doings 77 of the shepherds, and gave testimony before Him against all the shepherds. And he took the actual book and laid it down beside Him and departed.


[Chapter 90]
1 And I saw till that in this manner thirty-five shepherds undertook the pasturing (of the sheep), and they severally completed their periods as did the first; and others received them into their 2 hands, to pasture them for their period, each shepherd in his own period. And after that I saw in my vision all the birds of heaven coming, the eagles, the vultures, the kites, the ravens; but the eagles led all the birds; and they began to devour those sheep, and to pick out their eyes and to 3 devour their flesh. And the sheep cried out because their flesh was being devoured by the birds, 4 and as for me I looked and lamented in my sleep over that shepherd who pastured the sheep. And I saw until those sheep were devoured by the dogs and eagles and kites, and they left neither flesh nor skin nor sinew remaining on them till only their bones stood there: and their bones too fell 5 to the earth and the sheep became few. And I saw until that twenty-three had undertaken the pasturing and completed in their several periods fifty-eight times.

6 But behold lambs were borne by those white sheep, and they began to open their eyes and to see, 7 and to cry to the sheep. Yea, they cried to them, but they did not hearken to what they said to 8 them, but were exceedingly deaf, and their eyes were very exceedingly blinded.

And I saw in the vision ....

And I saw that man, who wrote the book according to the command of the Lord, till he opened that book concerning the destruction which those twelve last shepherds had wrought, and showed that they had destroyed much more than their predecessors, before the Lord of the sheep. And I saw till the Lord of the sheep came unto them and took in His hand the staff of His wrath, and smote the earth, and the earth clave asunder, and all the beasts and all the birds of the heaven fell from among those sheep, and were swallowed up in the earth and it covered them. 20 And I saw till a throne was erected in the pleasant land, and the Lord of the sheep sat Himself thereon, and the other took the sealed books and opened those books before the Lord of the sheep.

21 And the Lord called those men the seven first white ones, and commanded that they should bring before Him, beginning with the first star which led the way, all the stars whose privy members 22 were like those of horses, and they brought them all before Him. And He said to that man who wrote before Him, being one of those seven white ones,

and said unto him: ' Take those seventy shepherds to whom I delivered the sheep, and who taking them on their own authority slew more 23 than I commanded them.' And behold they were all bound, I saw, and they all stood before Him. 24 And the judgement was held first over the stars, and they were judged and found guilty, and went to the place of condemnation, and they were cast into an abyss, full of fire and flaming, and full 25 of pillars of fire. And those seventy shepherds were judged and found guilty, and they were cast 26 into that fiery abyss. And I saw at that time how a like abyss was opened in the midst of the earth, full of fire, and they brought those blinded sheep, and they were all judged and found guilty and 27 cast into this fiery abyss, and they burned; now this abyss was to the right of that house. And I saw those sheep burning and their bones burning. 28