• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Gospel of Christ Not Possible in TE Doctrine?

Status
Not open for further replies.

a_ntv

Ens Liturgicum
Apr 21, 2006
6,329
259
✟56,513.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
The materials and the forms of writing that the scribes who copied the ancient books used which were discovered at Qumran caves have been dated to third century B.C. That is the dating only of the writing styles and the carbon dating of the materials used.

Because Jesus' Gospel is based upon the three parables of the son of Man as found intact in the Ethiopian Coptic Church's book of 1 Enoch, then those of course pre-date Jesus' coming in flesh. He directly bases His ministry on the revelation of Himself as reported in 1 Enoch's parables of the Son of Man.
In Qumran were found fragments of all 1 Enoch except:
- the book of the paraboles (37 – 71), the one of the "Son of the Man"
- the conclusive chapter 108
- the "non-predetermination" speech into the epistle of Enoch (94:6-104:6)

The lack of the whole book of the paraboles cannot be by chance. Probably this text was written after the newer manuscript of 1 Enoch found in Qumran (about the half of 1 century BCE).

So it is NOT demonstrated the priority of book of the paraboles (and of its "Son of the Man") compared to the Gospels. There is not consensus among scholars about that. I've read lots of different positions and I agree that is plausible that the book of the paraboles has been written in the range 40 BCE-30 CE.

Remember that the reference to the prophet Enoch in the letter of Jude refers to the the "book of Vigilantes", the older par of 1 Enoch.
It is absolutely un-demonstrated that the redaction/compilation (uniting five different texts) of 1 Enoch as known by the Ethiopean Church existed before the XI century CE
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In Qumran were found fragments of all 1 Enoch except:
- the book of the paraboles (37 – 71), the one of the "Son of the Man"
- the conclusive chapter 108
- the "non-predetermination" speech into the epistle of Enoch (94:6-104:6)

The lack of the whole book of the paraboles cannot be by chance. Probably this text was written after the newer manuscript of 1 Enoch found in Qumran (about the half of 1 century BCE).

So it is NOT demonstrated the priority of book of the paraboles (and of its "Son of the Man") compared to the Gospels. There is not consensus among scholars about that. I've read lots of different positions and I agree that is plausible that the book of the paraboles has been written in the range 40 BCE-30 CE.

Remember that the reference to the prophet Enoch in the letter of Jude refers to the the "book of Vigilantes", the older par of 1 Enoch.
It is absolutely un-demonstrated that the redaction/compilation (uniting five different texts) of 1 Enoch as known by the Ethiopean Church existed before the XI century CE
Determining what the Holy Spirit inspired by "concensus" is the error of some certain men who gathered together hundreds of years after the Church was established, and "decided" by [rowdy brawling] concensus what the Holy Spirit "inspired'. They threw out what Jesus and His Apostles used and called Scripture, and because they by then were missing some books because they were not deemed important enough for the thouroughly "greek' "church" to keep and use.
They erred, and missed the message that God has given from the beginning to all nationos descended from Enoch, if the one plan for redemption in the one name of the One New Man, of whom Enoch saw and wrote of for all the nations of the world, before the flood.
Jesus did not come preaching from a book written by an unknown person hidden from the world, who wrote only about ten years before His birth -not a chance!
We use the fact that the Qumran collection included most of 1 Enoch only to corroborate that it was written and used long before the NT times. As to what all is in the DSS we do not yet know, as they have not all been opened [because they fall apart and words are lost] and translated and published. The remaining ones have been scanned by an MRI machine and scholars were going to work on them and put them together...how long that will take is anyone's guess.
Meantime; the book of 1 Enoch's parables are what Jesus used for His own doctrine about Himself. He is the One to whom the sum of all judgment is committed by the Father, as He said and as it is written in the Book of Enoch. He is the One who will come on His throne of Glory and who will share it with His redeemed saints.
He is the One who came to die, who made an end of sin, who rose again, who emptied sheol of the captive righteous dead, who ascended, who is going to rapture His saints out of the world and from the graves, who is going to send horrible tribulation on the world, remove the wicked judges, judge the world when He returns with His holy ones -saints and angels- returning, establish His reign of Peace, then regenerate the heavens and earth and unite them with the Father through His name. He is the One who was seen by Enoch as hidden in God, who was with God and who was to come, whose name was secret until the time of its revealing "to the elect". That is all in found in 1 Enoch.
The doctrine of the Son of Man in heaven who was God and with God, hidden, is that which is from 1 Enoch and from no other book. That is why the Egyptians worshipped Him correctly from the beginning -until they corrupted His image- as "Amen" -the hidden One in heaven.

He is the One who gave all sin to Azazel [a word incorrectly translated as 'scapegoat" in the AV], on the Day of His Atonement. Only from reading Enoch is that understood to have happened in the seventieth generation, as 1 Enoch so prophesies. Luke understood and read 1 Enoch, and went to pains to show that Jesus is that seventieth generation who avenged the blood of His own upon "this generation" -the wicked who were to be bound and receive the vengeance on the Day of His atonement.

His womb brothers, James and Jude also read and used 1 Enoch, as Paul did, John did, Peter did, and the author of Hebrews did -they also used the Book of Jasher and spoke of the things written in it as if every one of their readers were familiar with it.
Hannah also quoted from it in her praise song when she was promised a son, in 1 Samuel 2
1Sa 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, [and] lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set [them] among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth [are] the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them. 1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail...and
1Sa 2:10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed..

The throne of glory for the redeemed saints is not mentioned anywhere else in the Word, , until Jesus comes preaching, but it is in Enoch.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So because a completely different text is called 'the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel' ir cancels out the fact another text is called 'the Story of the Book of the Kings'? What sort of argument is that?
It is called the book/record/cepher/writing in both Kings and Chronicles. Chronicles says the midrash [translated "story"] of the cepher/book of the kings.





Who was the revelation given to? Paul or Enoch?
...

If it was written by Enoch for all the races of Adam, why did Paul say it was hidden for ages in God?
He was only "revealed" to "the elect" when He came in flesh, not before. Jacob got the secret name of Him, which Enoch revealed that the angels wanted to know. That name is "Israel" [Hosea 12:3-5]. Enoch had the revelation of Him in heaven as the Son of Man. Jesus knew that He, Himself, was the Son of Man who was in heaven, hidden, who was with God and who was God, and who was seen by Enoch as an alter ego/another same self, of the Great Glory, who sits on the created throne in heaven.

That knowledge is not in the OT, but only in Enoch. Jesus is always refering to the knowledge of Himself as the Son of Man, as written about in Enoch.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=6&v=62&t=KJV#62
Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

Before His incarnation He was "hid in God". Enoch saw Him there, as the Son of Man. Enoch is the only one who ever saw Him there and recorded what He was shown.
He is still being revealed to all who call upon His name for salvation. His preachers are called to preach/declare His name, and the salvation in His name to all the world, until He calls His Church out of the midst of the world.
Book of Enoch
[Chapter 1]
1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3 for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:

[Chapter 46]
1 And there I saw One who had a head of days,
And His head was white like wool,
And with Him was another being whose countenance had the appearance of a man,
And his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels.
2 And I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things, concerning that 3 Son of Man, who he was, and whence he was, (and) why he went with the Head of Days? And he answered and said unto me:
This is the son of Man who hath righteousness,
With whom dwelleth righteousness,
And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden,
Because the Lord of Spirits hath chosen him,
And whose lot hath the pre-eminence before the Lord of Spirits in uprightness for ever.
4 And this Son of Man whom thou hast seen
Shall raise up the kings and the mighty from their seats,
[And the strong from their thrones]


5 [And he shall put down the kings from their thrones and kingdoms]
Because they do not extol and praise Him,
Nor humbly acknowledge whence the kingdom was bestowed upon them.
6 And he shall put down the countenance of the strong,
And shall fill them with shame.
And darkness shall be their dwelling,
And worms shall be their bed,
And they shall have no hope of rising from their beds,

And shall loosen the reins of the strong,
And break the teeth of the sinners.
````
48: 2 And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Spirits,
And his name before the Head of Days.
3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created,
Before the stars of the heaven were made,
His name was named before the Lord of Spirits.
4 He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,
And he shall be the light of the Gentiles,
And the hope of those who are troubled of heart.
5 All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him,
And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits.
6 And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him,
Before the creation of the world and for evermore.
7 And the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits hath revealed him to the holy and righteous;
For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous,

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery "held in silence" since the world began,
Enoch 48:8 Because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness,
And have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Spirits:
For in his name they are saved,
And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life.

8 In these days downcast in countenance shall the kings of the earth have become,
And the strong who possess the land because of the works of their hands,
For on the day of their anguish and affliction they shall not (be able to) save themselves.
And I will give them over into the hands of Mine elect:
As straw in the fire so shall they burn before the face of the holy:
As lead in the water shall they sink before the face of the righteous,
And no trace of them shall any more be found.

10 And on the day of their affliction there shall be rest on the earth,
And before them they shall fall and not rise again:
And there shall be no one to take them with his hands and raise them:
For they have denied the Lord of Spirits and His Anointed.
The name of the Lord of Spirits be blessed.

[Chapter 49]

l For wisdom is poured out like water,
And glory faileth not before him for evermore.
2 For he is mighty in all the secrets of righteousness,
And unrighteousness shall disappear as a shadow,
And have no continuance;
Because the Elect One standeth before the Lord of Spirits,
And his glory is for ever and ever,

And his might unto all generations.
3 And in him dwells the spirit of wisdom,
And the spirit which gives insight,
And the spirit of understanding and of might,
And the spirit of those who have fallen asleep in righteousness.
4 And he shall judge the secret things,
And none shall be able to utter a lying word before him;
For he is the Elect One before the Lord of Spirits according to His good pleasure.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I looked at Jesus' use of the Jewish canon in his reference to all the prophets from Abel (Genesis) to Zechariah (2nd Chronicles the last book in the Jewish canon). I do not know of Jesus referring to any book outside the canon as scripture. While he rejected many of the legalistic traditions of the elders, he did share a common first century Jewish theology with both devout Jews like Mary and Martha and Pharisees....

You did not find a reference to Abel as a prophet in the OT, nor did you find his prophesy in the OT, nor did you find the reference to the avenging of the blood of Abel the prophet..on "this generation" in the OT. They are in Scripture which Jesus read and which His Apostles -even Paul- read.
Jesus always referred to Enoch as a true writing/Scripture, using the things Enoch wrote as “Thus saith the LORD”, as absolutely "said by the LORD”.

Within what is called canon by some certain men in certain places, there is no reference to Abel as a prophet and there is no prophecy of Abel‘s. Also, there is no reference to the blood of Abel being avenged on “this generation” in what men call canon.

In the history of the Upright/Jasher, Abel’s prophesy is given, and it relates to the avenging of his blood by YHWH, if Cain killed him. Cain did kill him, and YHWH is indeed the Avenger of blood, who avenges Abel the prophet’s blood on “this generation” -the seventieth generation. Jesus is that seventieth [Luke 3], as prophesied, from the mouth of the LORD.

Jasher chapter 1: 21-33
And Cain said to his brother Abel, Surely if I slay thee this day, who will require thy blood from me?
And Abel answered Cain, saying, Surely God who has made us in the earth, he will avenge my cause, and he will require my blood from thee shouldst thou slay me, for the Lord is the judge and arbiter, and it is he who will requite man according to his evil, and the wicked man according to the wickedness that he may do upon earth.

And now, if thou shouldst slay me here, surely God knoweth thy secret views, and will judge thee for the evil which thou didst declare to do unto me this day.

And when Cain heard the words which Abel his brother had spoken, behold the anger of Cain was kindled against his brother Abel for declaring this thing.
And Cain hastened and rose up, and took the iron part of his ploughing instrument, with which he suddenly smote his brother and he slew him, and Cain spilt the blood of his brother Abel upon the earth, and the blood of Abel streamed upon the earth before the flock.
And after this Cain repented having slain his brother, and he was sadly grieved, and he wept over him and it vexed him exceedingly.
And Cain rose up and dug a hole in the field, wherein he put his brother's body, and he turned the dust over it.
And the Lord knew what Cain had done to his brother, and the Lord appeared to Cain and said unto him, Where is Abel thy brother that was with thee?
And Cain dissembled, and said, I do not know, am I my brother's keeper? And the Lord said unto him, What hast thou done? The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground where thou hast slain him.
For thou hast slain thy brother and hast dissembled before me, and didst imagine in thy heart that I saw thee not, nor knew all thy actions.
But thou didst this thing and didst slay thy brother for naught and because he spoke rightly to thee, and now, therefore, cursed be thou from the ground which opened its mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand, and wherein thou didst bury him.
And it shall be when thou shalt till it, it shall no more give thee its strength as in the beginning, for thorns and thistles shall the ground produce, and thou shalt be moving and wandering in the earth until the day of thy death.
And at that time Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, from the place where he was, and he went moving and wandering in the land toward the east of Eden, he and all belonging to him.

1 Enoch 10:…
[Chapter 10]
1 Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, 2 and said to him: 'Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come 3 upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape 4 and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world.' And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5 in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6,7 not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the 8 Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted 9 through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.'


Azazel is to be given all sin.
Azazel will suffer the torments of the penalty of all the sin given him forever and forever, in the lake/abyss of fire.

Jesus’ soul served as the ram -goat- chosen “for Azazel’ on the Day He fulfilled the Atonement once, for all. The Father laid all the sins and iniquities of all Adamkind upon Him [Isaiah 53], and turned from Him. Jesus then cried out; “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?’. He bore our sins and iniquities by becoming sin -and mortal- for us that day, and when the Father turned from Him, He tasted our spiritual death. He then committed His Spirit to the Father and His soul departed from His New Man body of flesh, taking those sins away with Him, to give them “to Azazel”, “bound in the wilderness“, as Moses gave the living oracles about; which oracles were to be rehearsed on the Day of Atonement in Israel, yearly, until they were fulfilled.

Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for YHWH, and the other lot for Azazel.
Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell for Azazel, shall be presented alive before YHWH, to make an atonement with him, [and] send him away, to Azazel, in the wilderness.

Lev 16:20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Mar 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.


1 Enoch 22:3 Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.' I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit, 5 and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was 6 with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven ?' 7 And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.' 8 The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?' 9 And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There 12 He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.' 14 The I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.'
[Chapter 23]
1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; Luk 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Abel was a prophet. He made a prophesy. It is recorded. Jesus knew the prophesy. Jesus is the avenger of blood for the earth, as Isaiah 59 states He is come in flesh as second "Ish/Man, for.
Jesus said Abel's prophetic blood is "required" of "this generation".
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Read what Jesus said, Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."
Jesus quoted from Exodus 3:6, that is in the Jewish canon.
Jesus dealt with the error of the Sadducees in not knowing the Scripures which teach that in heaven the angels do not marry and that those who attain the resurrection to life are equal with the angels in heaven.

Then, He also dealt with the Sadducees' blindness of not believing what Moses wrote about God being the God of the living.

You cannot dismiss the fact that Jesus dealt with their error of not knowing the Scriptures which teach that in heaven the angels do not marry and that the resurrected to life saints are equal with the angels in heaven.
Matthew was there with Jesus when He said:
Matthew 22:29Jesus answered (5679) and said (5627) unto them, Ye do err (5744) , not knowing (5761) the scriptures,
The Scriptures teach that in heaven the angels do not marry. The Scriptures teach that in heaven the resurrected saints will be equal with the angels of God. That is not found in the OT, but in Enoch.

The "also" part about the power of God is not being dealt with here.
nor the power of God.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married



What make you think "The Wisdom of God" is a book Jesus quoted from? Does Jesus even say it is written in a book? It is not the way Jesus usually quoted scripture, saying 'It is written...' or quoting the prophet by name:
The whole passage in Luke deals with something already said, which would be fulfilled in "this generation" -Jesus' generation time. It is not for the future from His day, and it is about the Atonement, as I wrote in a former post.


.Luke 11:49-51..Therefore * * also said (5627) the wisdom of God, I will send * (5692) them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay (5692) and persecute (5692) :
That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed (5746) from the foundation of the world, may be required (5686) of this generation;
From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished (5642) between the altar and the temple: verily I say (5719) unto you, It shall be required (5701) of this generation.


But then again, Jesus is the wisdom of God.
He is also God the Word, who spoke to Moses and who is YHWH speaking each time YHWH says anything in the OT. If you who want to denigrate His Word in Genesis would remember that Jesus is YHWH who spoke to us by His prophets then you may come to respect His Words and believe them as absolute truth -from the beginning.
 
Upvote 0

a_ntv

Ens Liturgicum
Apr 21, 2006
6,329
259
✟56,513.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Determining what the Holy Spirit inspired by "concensus" is the error of some certain men who gathered together hundreds of years after the Church was established, and "decided" by [rowdy brawling] concensus what the Holy Spirit "inspired'. They threw out what Jesus and His Apostles used and called Scripture, and because they by then were missing some books because they were not deemed important enough for the thouroughly "greek' "church" to keep and use....

You are giving faith to the compilers of 1 Enoch, who were anyway only some certain men who gathered together hundreds of years after the Church was established.
They took 5 books about Enoch (only the first one is referred to in the NT) and put them together, as to create a "Pentateuch" (five books together) , as the Torah is.
If you belief any book of Enoch, remember that there are other two texts: the very fragmentary "Book of Gigants" (found in Qumran), and the well conserved 2 Enoch (not found in Qumran, but written surely before 70AD): this last text is extremely interesting, and very probably known and used by St. Paul. (3 Enoch is a text of five centuries later, so not waist your time)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So because a completely different text is called 'the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel' ir cancels out the fact another text is called 'the Story of the Book of the Kings'? What sort of argument is that?
It is called the book/record/cepher/writing in both Kings and Chronicles. Chronicles says the midrash [translated "story"] of the cepher/book of the kings.
So what? Both verses talk about books. What has that to do with the use of a completely different word 'story' which is in 2Chron 24:27, and isn't in 1Kings 14:19 at all? Why even bother giving an expansion of the word book "book/record/cepher/writing" when it has nothing to do with the argument?

If you find you have made a mistake, why keep defending the bad argument? Why not simply drop the whole point, or better still apologise to glaudys for insulting her over the use of the word story which is used in bible translations from Coverdale and the KJV to the ESV and NLT?


[The parts you dropped from your quote are paled...]
Who was the revelation given to? Paul or Enoch?
1Cor 2:7But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the wisdom that has been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this world has known. For had they known it, they wouldn't have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, "Things which an eye didn't see, and an ear didn't hear, which didn't enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him." 10But to us, God revealed them through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
Eph 3:3 how that by revelation the mystery was made known to me, as I wrote before in few words,

When was the mystery revealed? In Paul's time or when Enoch was written?
Eph 3:9
and to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hiddenin God, who created all things through Jesus Christ;
Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden for ages and generations. But now it has been revealed to his saints,

If it was written by Enoch for all the races of Adam, why did Paul say it was hidden for ages in God?
He was only "revealed" to "the elect" when He came in flesh, not before. Jacob got the secret name of Him, which Enoch revealed that the angels wanted to know. That name is "Israel" [Hosea 12:3-5]. Enoch had the revelation of Him in heaven as the Son of Man. Jesus knew that He, Himself, was the Son of Man who was in heaven, hidden, who was with God and who was God, and who was seen by Enoch as an alter ego/another same self, of the Great Glory, who sits on the created throne in heaven.
Don't know the reason for the digression into the name of Jacob, but the question remains. You believe Enoch got his revelation form God and wrote it in a book for the sons of Adam. You believe the Essenes had this Revelation in their library before Jesus was even born and the Paul and Jesus both quoted from it.

So why did Paul the wisdom 'has been hidden' and only revealed 'to us' or 'to me'. Your claims about the book of Enoch completely contradict what Paul tells us.

Incidentally, Jesus' reference to the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory Matt 24:30, is taken from Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. 14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

That knowledge is not in the OT, but only in Enoch. Jesus is always refering to the knowledge of Himself as the Son of Man, as written about in Enoch.
A meaningless argument when you claim Enoch was part of the Jewish scriptures. Paul says "the mystery which has been hidden for ages and generations" How does it matter whether Enoch was part of the OT canon or not? If the mystery was hidden then it wasn't in Enoch, at least not in the part of the the book was written before Paul.

Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
Before His incarnation He was "hid in God". Enoch saw Him there, as the Son of Man. Enoch is the only one who ever saw Him there and recorded what He was shown.
He is still being revealed to all who call upon His name for salvation. His preachers are called to preach/declare His name, and the salvation in His name to all the world, until He calls His Church out of the midst of the world.
So when was the mystery revealed? In Enoch's day before Noah, or as Paul tells us in their generation?

You did not find a reference to Abel as a prophet in the OT, nor did you find his prophesy in the OT,
Sure I did. You just skipped past it. Any way even if you don't like that prophecy, just because someone is called a prophet, does not mean his prophecies are recorded in the bible. There are whole 'companies of prophets in the bible with no reference to what they said. Nor does it mean that any of the fictitious books called 'Jasher', after the book mentioned in Joshua, is they make up a prophecy for Abel, then it has to be what Abel actually said.

nor did you find the reference to the avenging of the blood of Abel the prophet..on "this generation" in the OT.
Jesus never said he got it from an OT prophecy or any other ancient text. Matthew attributes it to Jesus.

They are in Scripture which Jesus read and which His Apostles -even Paul- read.
Jesus always referred to Enoch as a true writing/Scripture, using the things Enoch wrote as “Thus saith the LORD”, as absolutely "said by the LORD”.
In what Gospel do we find Jesus referring to Enoch as scripture?

Within what is called canon by some certain men in certain places, there is no reference to Abel as a prophet and there is no prophecy of Abel‘s. Also, there is no reference to the blood of Abel being avenged on “this generation” in what men call canon.

In the history of the Upright/Jasher, Abel’s prophesy is given, and it relates to the avenging of his blood by YHWH, if Cain killed him. Cain did kill him, and YHWH is indeed the Avenger of blood, who avenges Abel the prophet’s blood on “this generation” -the seventieth generation. Jesus is that seventieth [Luke 3], as prophesied, from the mouth of the LORD.

Jasher chapter 1: 21-33
And Cain said to his brother Abel, Surely if I slay thee this day, who will require thy blood from me?
And Abel answered Cain, saying, Surely God who has made us in the earth, he will avenge my cause, and he will require my blood from thee shouldst thou slay me, for the Lord is the judge and arbiter, and it is he who will requite man according to his evil, and the wicked man according to the wickedness that he may do upon earth.

And now, if thou shouldst slay me here, surely God knoweth thy secret views, and will judge thee for the evil which thou didst declare to do unto me this day.

And when Cain heard the words which Abel his brother had spoken, behold the anger of Cain was kindled against his brother Abel for declaring this thing.
And Cain hastened and rose up, and took the iron part of his ploughing instrument, with which he suddenly smote his brother and he slew him, and Cain spilt the blood of his brother Abel upon the earth, and the blood of Abel streamed upon the earth before the flock.
And after this Cain repented having slain his brother, and he was sadly grieved, and he wept over him and it vexed him exceedingly.
And Cain rose up and dug a hole in the field, wherein he put his brother's body, and he turned the dust over it.
And the Lord knew what Cain had done to his brother, and the Lord appeared to Cain and said unto him, Where is Abel thy brother that was with thee?
And Cain dissembled, and said, I do not know, am I my brother's keeper?
...
And at that time Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, from the place where he was, and he went moving and wandering in the land toward the east of Eden, he and all belonging to him.
No reference to a future generation in the time of the messiah who would be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets from Abel to Zechariah, just a claim, not even a prophecy, that God would require Abel's blood of Cain if Cain killed him, and that God repays everyone for their evil deeds.

1 Enoch 10:…
[Chapter 10]
1 Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, 2 and said to him: 'Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come 3 upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape 4 and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world.' And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening 5 in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may 6,7 not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the 8 Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted 9 through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.'


Azazel is to be given all sin.
Azazel will suffer the torments of the penalty of all the sin given him forever and forever, in the lake/abyss of fire.

Jesus’ soul served as the ram -goat- chosen “for Azazel’ on the Day He fulfilled the Atonement once, for all. The Father laid all the sins and iniquities of all Adamkind upon Him [Isaiah 53], and turned from Him. Jesus then cried out; “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?’. He bore our sins and iniquities by becoming sin -and mortal- for us that day, and when the Father turned from Him, He tasted our spiritual death. He then committed His Spirit to the Father and His soul departed from His New Man body of flesh, taking those sins away with Him, to give them “to Azazel”, “bound in the wilderness“, as Moses gave the living oracles about; which oracles were to be rehearsed on the Day of Atonement in Israel, yearly, until they were fulfilled.

Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for YHWH, and the other lot for Azazel.
Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell for Azazel, shall be presented alive before YHWH, to make an atonement with him, [and] send him away, to Azazel, in the wilderness.

Lev 16:20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Lev 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Mar 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.


1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; Luk 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

Abel was a prophet. He made a prophesy. It is recorded. Jesus knew the prophesy. Jesus is the avenger of blood for the earth, as Isaiah 59 states He is come in flesh as second "Ish/Man, for.
Jesus said Abel's prophetic blood is "required" of "this generation".
Sorry jsm I can't make head nor tail of that.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Read what Jesus said, Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."
Jesus quoted from Exodus 3:6, that is in the Jewish canon.
Jesus dealt with the error of the Sadducees in not knowing the Scripures which teach that in heaven the angels do not marry and that those who attain the resurrection to life are equal with the angels in heaven.

Then, He also dealt with the Sadducees' blindness of not believing what Moses wrote about God being the God of the living.

You cannot dismiss the fact that Jesus dealt with their error of not knowing the Scriptures which teach that in heaven the angels do not marry and that the resurrected to life saints are equal with the angels in heaven.
Jesus does not say that angels not marrying is scripture, nor does he quote it as scripture the way he quotes from Exodus. The first he simply states as fact with the simple word 'for' "For when they rise from the dead..." The second is introduced as something they should have 'read' from 'the book of Moses' have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush. But I have said all that before. We just have youe opinion angels not marrying is supposed to be scripture. Jesus never said it was.

Matthew was there with Jesus when He said:
Matthew 22:29Jesus answered (5679) and said (5627) unto them, Ye do err (5744) , not knowing (5761) the scriptures,
The Scriptures teach that in heaven the angels do not marry. The Scriptures teach that in heaven the resurrected saints will be equal with the angels of God. That is not found in the OT, but in Enoch.

The "also" part about the power of God is not being dealt with here.
nor the power of God.
Surely the power of God Jesus is referring to here is the power of the resurrection which Paul describes in Eph 1:19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places.

Jesus says the Sadducees knew neither the scriptures nor the power of God. He the describes the power of God in the resurrection, which went way beyond the mere resuscitation imagined by the Sadducees, transforming us to be like the angels in heaven. Then as evidence from the scriptures the Sadducees did not understand, he quoted Exodus.

The whole passage in Luke deals with something already said, which would be fulfilled in "this generation" -Jesus' generation time. It is not for the future from His day, and it is about the Atonement, as I wrote in a former post.

.Luke 11:49-51..Therefore * * also said (5627) the wisdom of God, I will send * (5692) them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay (5692) and persecute (5692) :
That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed (5746) from the foundation of the world, may be required (5686) of this generation;
From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished (5642) between the altar and the temple: verily I say (5719) unto you, It shall be required (5701) of this generation.
So who said it would be fulfilled in this generation? Jesus said it. Luke 11:51 Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation. Matthew ascribes the whole prophecy to Jesus Matt 23:34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men... If it is described in the past tense, that simply means it is something Jesus said before on another occasion, or it is a prophecy that came to him as he prayed on one of his long night vigils, before he spoke out about the scribes and Pharisees. You haven't given the slightest shred of evidence that Jesus is quoting a prophecy in another book.

But then again, Jesus is the wisdom of God.
He is also God the Word, who spoke to Moses and who is YHWH speaking each time YHWH says anything in the OT. If you who want to denigrate His Word in Genesis would remember that Jesus is YHWH who spoke to us by His prophets then you may come to respect His Words and believe them as absolute truth -from the beginning.
There you go again. How is referring to Jesus as the wisdom of God 'denegrating Genesis', or did you just throw that in for fun? Was Paul denegrating Genesis when he said 1Cor 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So what? Both verses talk about books. What has that to do with the use of a completely different word 'story' which is in 2Chron 24:27, and isn't in 1Kings 14:19 at all? Why even bother giving an expansion of the word book "book/record/cepher/writing" when it has nothing to do with the argument?

If you find you have made a mistake, why keep defending the bad argument? Why not simply drop the whole point, or better still apologise to glaudys for insulting her over the use of the word story which is used in bible translations from Coverdale and the KJV to the ESV and NLT?
It is denigrating the Word of God to call the Genesis record a "story".
I did not make a mistake. I accused Gluadys of denigrating the Genesis record by calling it a story. The word story in 2 Chronicles is the word "midrash", and the Genesis record of creation is not "midrash".
Otherwise, both Kings and Chronicles state the same word for the records of the kings, as the "cepher/
book/writing/record". Why are you being so petty about that truth, as is written in the record?

Genesis' creation account is not midrash. It is not a parable, riddle, similie, nor is it a lie. It is straightforward. "In six evenings and mornings =each equaling one separate, whole day of one evening +one morning God created the heavens and the earth and all that in them is". He made the sun, moon and stars on day four which was a day of one evening and one morning, and set them in the firmament/heaven which He stretched out to divide the waters above the heaven from the waters below.
````
You cannot make all mysteries equal one and the same mystery, in the word of God. There are many different "mysteries".
The "wisdom" preached by Paul and the Apostles before him, of whom Paul is speaking in 2 Corinthians, is stated in the Greek as "God in mystery hidden, which God ordained before the world for our Glory"
1 Co 2:7 But we speak wisdom God in mystery, hidden , which/who God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Only in Enoch is the "Son of Man" seen as "God, hidden; ordained before the world for our glory".



Incidentally, Jesus' reference to the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory Matt 24:30, is taken from Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. 14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
You err on that passage.
The Ancient of Days on the Throne is Jesus Christ, ascended and seated. He is the one and the same Head of Days seen by Enoch, and also seen by John in Rev 1. The one like the "son of man" in Daniel 7 is the Church, the man-child caught up to the throne in Rev 12, as the seed of Zion =Jerusalem above [the mother of us all and in whom Jesus Christ as second Man is the Foundation Stone laid for the building of Zion of the Spirit].
The angel tells Daniel the interpretation of the vision; that the "one coming on the clouds" to the Ancient/Head of days who is seated on the throne is the "saints of the Most High". The collective Church [made of Jews and Gentiles] is "one New Man" in Christ, as opposed to the human race in Adam as the one old man". Paul repeatedly expounds on that fact.
My reference was not to Jesus coming on clouds, anyway, but I referred to His throne of Glory and the thrones of glory that the saints will be seated on, in the regeneration. No place but Enoch are those thrones of glory mentioned for the saints, before Jesus' Gospel accounts. Hannah makes mention of the record of Enoch to those thrones in her psalm of praise, as I noted. -She took that out of Enoch.


Daniel 7:9- I beheld * till the thrones were cast down , and the Ancient of days did sit , whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set , and the books were opened .


I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away ) , and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed .

I came near unto one of them that stood by , and asked ( him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

I beheld , and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came , and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
 
Upvote 0

a_ntv

Ens Liturgicum
Apr 21, 2006
6,329
259
✟56,513.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
If we take 1 Enoch as scripture (more or less), why don't we look at the other important apocryphal text found in Qumran, the Book of Jubilees or also called the Lesser Genesis ?

It starts narrating the whole creation. For sure it had the same importance as 1 Enoch, and it is by far more near to our Genesis.
I don't know if this text (as canonical as 1 Enoch) has been already used in the TE vs CS debate.

For on the first day He created the heavens which are above and the earth and the waters and all the spirits which serve before him -the angels of the presence, and the angels of sanctification, and the angels [of the spirit of fire and the angels] of the spirit of the winds, and the angels of the spirit of the clouds, and of darkness, and of snow and of hail and of hoar frost, and the angels of the voices and of the thunder and of the lightning, and the angels of the spirits of cold and of heat, and of winter and of spring and of autumn and of summer and of all the spirits of his creatures which are in the heavens and on the earth, (He created) the abysses and the darkness, eventide (and night), and the light, dawn and day, which He hath prepared in the knowledge of his heart. And thereupon we saw His works, and praised Him, and lauded before Him on account of all His works; for seven great works did He create on the first day.
And on the second day He created the firmament in the midst of the waters, and the waters were divided on that day -half of them went up above and half of them went down below the firmament (that was) in the midst over the face of the whole earth. And this was the only work (God) created on the second day.....
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If we take 1 Enoch as scripture (more or less), why don't we look at the other important apocryphal text found in Qumran, the Book of Jubilees or also called the Lesser Genesis ?

It starts narrating the whole creation. For sure it had the same importance as 1 Enoch, and it is by far more near to our Genesis.
I don't know if this text (as canonical as 1 Enoch) has been already used in the TE vs CS debate.
Jubilees is in the Ethiopian Coptic Church 'canon", but in no way can Jubilees be "inspired" as it is in conflict with the OT, Enoch, and the Book of Jasher in multiple places. Enoch, Jasher and the OT can be correlated. -Song of Solomon is in the western Church 'canon", too, but in no way is it "inspired" as it is in conflict with the law of Moses and the instructions for kings and Israelites.

Jubilees is useful for information on the way particular Jewish Believers understood the seasons and festivals. The author was completely ignorant on the Day of Atonement's fulfillment once for all.
Jubilees is useful in that it has within it information from other sources that do help shed a bit of light on some matters. They probably got that information from the missing Enoch books.
The thing about 1 Enoch is that it is not a "Jewish' writing, as Enoch was not a Jew. Enoch also said that he wrote his books as wisdom, and entrusted them to Methusaleh [and so they went on the ark with Noah] for all the generations of the nations of the world.
Egypt once worshipped the true God as "Amen" -the hidden God in heaven, as revealed by Enoch, but they changed the truth of God into a lie, as all cultures have, over time -Romans 1.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
It is denigrating the Word of God to call the Genesis record a "story".

Why?

I think this statement illustrates a personal prejudice regarding the value of a story.

What is negative or denigrating about teaching through a story?

What evidence is there that God shares your negative assessment of stories?
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus does not say that angels not marrying is scripture,....
Yes Jesus did say that the Scriptures say that in heaven the angels do not marry.
The Sadducees knew what Moses wrote. They did not "know" what Enoch wrote. Jesus rebuked them for it.

Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die , and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise , whose wife shall she be (5704) of them? for the seven had her to wife.
...
Mar 12:23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
The first point Jesus addressed to the Sadducees was
“Whose wife will she be in the resurrection, for they all had her“.
Jesus responded to that question about whose wife she would be in the resurrection by telling them they erred, not knowing the Scriptures…..Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, ...
They knew Moses. They're talking about Moses' writings.
http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1135
There is no marriage nor giving in marriage in the resurrection for they are equal with the angels.
For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry , nor are given in marriage ; but are as/like the angels which are in heaven.
Do the angels marry in heaven? -no. The Sadducees should have known the Scripture that taught that the angels do not marry in heaven and that in the resurrection the saints will be equal with -like- the angels in heaven.
The Sadducees were rebuked for not knowing Enoch’s writings, which writings Jesus also referred to as “the Wisdom of God”.


Moses declared that angels/sons of God [ben elohym] married daughters of Adam [bath Adam] on earth, but Moses said nothing about angels not marrying in heaven; but Enoch told of that. Jesus called Enoch's writings "Scripture", plainly.

In the Sadducees question they were trying to trap Jesus, but Jesus rebuked them for not knowing that in the resurrection they do not marry because the angels do not marry in heaven, and they are equal to the angels in the resurrection.
Because they did not know the Scripture about the angels they also did not know the same Scripture on the resurrection and regeneration of the body. It is Enoch who reveals the resurrection and regeneration of the body.
Because the Sadducees read Moses, then Jesus also pointed out that in Moses, God declared that He is the God of the living -corroborating Enoch's teachings on the resurrection of the same body- so Jesus made the second point that they "neither did they know the power of God", and so they erred even "greater" -much more err[ ye therefore do greatly err ].

They erred for not knowing the Scripture that Enoch wrote about the angels not marrying in heaven and the resurrected saints being like them, and they erred much more than that, even, by not knowing the power of God.
Enoch taught these things that the Sadducees did not "know"; but the prophets "knew" them because Enoch taught them and they all read Enoch. -Abraham read and believed Enoch, as Abram was taught in Noah and Shem's house, by them when he lived with them for 29 years [as Jasher records]; and in the DSS Genesis Apocryphon, we read the words of Abraham, that he read from the book of Enoch to the Pharaoah's men, who asked to be taught "wisdom"; "I read to them from the Book of Enoch"

Even Job, a non-Jew, read Enoch and knew that His Redeemer/Kinsman would raise His same flesh, and that He would see God in the last days, in the resurrection.
Job 19:25,26 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the last day upon the earth: [URL="http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=0433"] [/URL]
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold , and not another ; though my reins be consumed within me.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Originally Posted by Assyrian "You haven't given the slightest shred of evidence that Jesus is quoting a prophecy in another book."
You do not believe the Scriptures -but maybe someone reading will, and will be encouraged to trust God's Words, and not men's words, who deny God's Words.
Jesus speaks to the Jews;
Luke 11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
Therefore/this * * also/indeed said the wisdom of God, I will send * them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute/oppress with calamities : That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required/demanded back of this generation;

Verse 48 is past tense, Jesus expounded to the Jews that this is indeed what the Wisdom of God had said" they would do.
Then Jesus also says that they did it in order that the blood of all the prophets -from Abel on- would be demanded back of this generation"
It is the 70th generation after Enoch that the blood of all the prophets is "demanded back" of "this generation".
Jesus "led captivity captive" and emptied Sheol below of all the souls who had ever gone there to wait for the Atonement and deliverance from the first death.

The dream visions of Enoch, about Israel [the sheep] and the elect people [of the name]:

Enoch 89: 51 And again I saw those sheep that they again erred and went many ways, and forsook that their house, and the Lord of the sheep called some from amongst the sheep and sent them to the sheep, 52 but the sheep began to slay them. And one of them was saved and was not slain, and it sped away and cried aloud over the sheep; and they sought to slay it, but the Lord of the sheep saved it from 53 the sheep, and brought it up to me, and caused it to dwell there. And many other sheep He sent to those sheep to testify unto them and lament over them. And after that I saw that when they forsook the house of the Lord and His tower they fell away entirely, and their eyes were blinded;
To be called and sent is to be an "apostle". In the above Enoch [Wisdom of God] passage, Elijah is taken up to be with Enoch.
Enoch gives the books to Methusaleh which books he wrote in the year that the angels left him on earth, to write "Wisdom" for all the generations of the world. He often remarks that he is given wisdom of God and that he indeed writes the books, himself.


92: 1 The book written by Enoch-[Enoch indeed wrote this complete doctrine of wisdom, (which is) praised of all men and a judge of all the earth] for all my children who shall dwell on the earth. And for the future generations who shall observe uprightness and peace.
2 Let not your spirit be troubled on account of the times;
For the Holy and Great One has appointed days for all things.
3 And the righteous one shall arise from sleep,
[Shall arise] and walk in the paths of righteousness,
And all his path and conversation shall be in eternal goodness and grace.
4 He will be gracious to the righteous and give him eternal uprightness,
And He will give him power so that he shall be (endowed) with goodness and righteousness.
And he shall walk in eternal light.
And for those who were tortured and suffered persecution, [The Wisdom of God] written by Enoch has this comfort:
[Chapter 104]
1 I swear unto you, that in heaven the angels remember you for good before the glory of the Great 2 One: and your names are written before the glory of the Great One. Be hopeful; for aforetime ye were put to shame through ill and affliction; but now ye shall shine as the lights of heaven, 3 ye shall shine and ye shall be seen, and the portals of heaven shall be opened to you. And in your cry, cry for judgement, and it shall appear to you; for all your tribulation shall be visited on the 4 rulers, and on all who helped those who plundered you.
Be hopeful, and cast not away your hopes for ye shall have great joy as the angels of heaven. What shall ye be obliged to do ? Ye shall not have to hide on the day of the great judgement and ye shall not be found as sinners, and the eternal 6 judgement shall be far from you for all the generations of the world. And now fear not, ye righteous, when ye see the sinners growing strong and prospering in their ways: be not companions with them, 7 but keep afar from their violence; for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven. And, although ye sinners say: " All our sins shall not be searched out and be written down," nevertheless 8 they shall write down all your sins every day. And now I show unto you that light and darkness, 9 day and night, see all your sins. Be not godless in your hearts, and lie not and alter not the words of uprightness, nor charge with lying the words of the Holy Great One, nor take account of your 10 idols; for all your lying and all your godlessness issue not in righteousness but in great sin. And
now I know this mystery, that sinners will alter and pervert the words of righteousness in many ways, and will speak wicked words, and lie, and practice great deceits, and write books concerning 11 their words. But when they write down truthfully all my words in their languages, and do not change or minish ought from my words but write them all down truthfully -all that I first testified 12 concerning them. Then, I know another mystery, that books will be given to the righteous and the 13 wise to become a cause of joy and uprightness and much wisdom. And to them shall the books be given, and they shall believe in them and rejoice over them, and then shall all the righteous who have learnt therefrom all the paths of uprightness be recompensed.'
[Chapter 105]
1 In those days the Lord bade (them) to summon and testify to the children of earth concerning their wisdom: Show (it) unto them; for ye are their guides, and a recompense over the whole earth. 2 For I and My son will be united with them for ever in the paths of uprightness in their lives; and ye shall have peace: rejoice, ye children of uprightness. Amen.
for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven. =equal with, as/like the angels
and I and My son will be united with them for ever =one with the father through the Son.

Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

United with the Father through the Son is the teaching of Enoch, as above in Enoch [Wisdom given by God to him to teach]. That is not taught in the OT, but is in Enoch, and Jesus includes the truth of it in His prayers for His own.
Jesus called Enoch's writings "Wisdom of God", and Jesus called Enoch's writings "Scripture".
Jesus read Enoch and believed it.
So do I.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why?

I think this statement illustrates a personal prejudice regarding the value of a story.

What is negative or denigrating about teaching through a story?

What evidence is there that God shares your negative assessment of stories?
Do you write "stories" to the IRS? I doubt you would ever tell anyone that your records to the IRS were "stories". You should not call God's Genesis record of creation a "story" for the same reason that you would not call your IRS records "stories".



We listed a house for sale a bit ago and discovered that an absolute factual disclosure was required on a long list of questions about its history. And if we did not answer absolutely truthfully everything -and more- we would be legally liable "forever", for any thing not truthfully reported. We did not write "a story" for that historical record of the history of our house. And I see in the news that someone is now calling for even stiffer reporting rules for used homes sales in our state, too.-Nope, no stories allowed!

TE believers have a bias to the Genesis record/cepher/writing/history as absolute factual truth, and they want to believe the words of fallible men who have made up fairy tales -untrue fables- about a god who did not tell it like he did it because they believe Moses and the Israelites were not "evolved" enough to "understand" what their "story god" really meant.

In the doctrine of TE, it takes 3000 more years of evolving minds to discover what the TE god really did do. The TE god had to wait for enlightened minds of modern men "discover" evolution!

TE is a most arrogant false doctrine. It leads to belief in a false god, and the end of it is this-
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...

And the admonition to Timothy is to be observed by all YEC believers:
1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You do not believe the Scriptures -but maybe someone reading will, and will be encouraged to trust God's Words, and not men's words, who deny God's Words.
Sadly this is all you are left with when we examine your arguments, you cannot back you claim up from scripture so all you can do is claim we do not believe the very scripture that do not support your claims.

Jesus speaks to the Jews;
Luke 11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
Therefore/this * * also/indeed said the wisdom of God, I will send * them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute/oppress with calamities : That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required/demanded back of this generation;

Verse 48 is past tense, Jesus expounded to the Jews that this is indeed what the Wisdom of God had said" they would do.
As we have seen, using the past tense does not mean it was written in a book. It could be something Jesus said before, or The Father said to him before. As I pointed out, Matthew ascribed this statement to Jesus.

Then Jesus also says that they did it in order that the blood of all the prophets -from Abel on- would be demanded back of this generation"
It is the 70th generation after Enoch that the blood of all the prophets is "demanded back" of "this generation".
Jesus "led captivity captive" and emptied Sheol below of all the souls who had ever gone there to wait for the Atonement and deliverance from the first death.

The dream visions of Enoch, about Israel [the sheep] and the elect people [of the name]:
Nothing here suggesting Jesus is quoting from Enoch, and certainly nothing Jesus said suggests he was quoting form Enoch either.

To be called and sent is to be an "apostle". In the above Enoch [Wisdom of God] passage, Elijah is taken up to be with Enoch.
So was the Book of Enoch know as 'The Wisdom of God'? Or is it simply your title to claim Jesus was quoting Enoch?

Enoch gives the books to Methusaleh which books he wrote in the year that the angels left him on earth, to write "Wisdom" for all the generations of the world. He often remarks that he is given wisdom of God and that he indeed writes the books, himself.

And for those who were tortured and suffered persecution, [The Wisdom of God] written by Enoch has this comfort:
for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven. =equal with, as/like the angels
and I and My son will be united with them for ever =one with the father through the Son.
Companion of the hosts of heaven does not mean like them. It is Daniel who say the righteous will be like the stars.

When Jesus quotes scripture you know because he says he is quoting it and you can find the passage. Mark 12:26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."

Exodus 3:6 And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

Jesus was quoting from Exodus. All you have given us from Enoch are vaguely similar themes, very vague at times, and we know because the Sadducees were arguing about it that these are themes people were discussing. You need a bit more than a shared topic to claim Jesus was quoting Enoch, you need a shared quotation and you need to show that the quotation in Enoch predated Jesus. You also need to show he was quoting it as authoritative scripture rather than idiom. We have all of that with the Exodus quote, we don't have anything with your Enoch claim.

Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

United with the Father through the Son is the teaching of Enoch, as above in Enoch [Wisdom given by God to him to teach]. That is not taught in the OT, but is in Enoch, and Jesus includes the truth of it in His prayers for His own.
Jesus called Enoch's writings "Wisdom of God", and Jesus called Enoch's writings "Scripture".
Jesus read Enoch and believed it.
So do I.
Jesus never called the book of Enoch "Wisdom of God" or "Scripture". You are making that up.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟112,705.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sadly this is all you are left with when we examine your arguments, you cannot back you claim up from scripture so all you can do is claim we do not believe the very scripture that do not support your claims.

As we have seen, using the past tense does not mean it was written in a book. It could be something Jesus said before, or The Father said to him before. As I pointed out, Matthew ascribed this statement to Jesus.

Nothing here suggesting Jesus is quoting from Enoch, and certainly nothing Jesus said suggests he was quoting form Enoch either.

So was the Book of Enoch know as 'The Wisdom of God'? Or is it simply your title to claim Jesus was quoting Enoch?

Companion of the hosts of heaven does not mean like them. It is Daniel who say the righteous will be like the stars.

When Jesus quotes scripture you know because he says he is quoting it and you can find the passage. Mark 12:26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."

Exodus 3:6 And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

Jesus was quoting from Exodus. All you have given us from Enoch are vaguely similar themes, very vague at times, and we know because the Sadducees were arguing about it that these are themes people were discussing. You need a bit more than a shared topic to claim Jesus was quoting Enoch, you need a shared quotation and you need to show that the quotation in Enoch predated Jesus. You also need to show he was quoting it as authoritative scripture rather than idiom. We have all of that with the Exodus quote, we don't have anything with your Enoch claim.

Jesus never called the book of Enoch "Wisdom of God" or "Scripture". You are making that up.
I made up nothing and I use abundant Scripture proofs for my claims.




Originally Posted by Assyrian "You haven't given the slightest shred of evidence that Jesus is quoting a prophecy in another book."
You do not believe the Scriptures -but maybe someone reading will, and will be encouraged to trust God's Words, and not men's words, who deny God's Words.
Evidence: Jesus speaks to the Jews;
Luke 11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
Therefore/this * * also/indeed said the wisdom of God, I will send * them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute/oppress with calamities : That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required/demanded back of this generation;

Verse 48 is past tense, Jesus expounded to the Jews that this is indeed what the Wisdom of God had said" they would do.
Then Jesus also says that they did it in order that the blood of all the prophets -from Abel on- would be demanded back of this generation"
It is the 70th generation after Enoch that the blood of all the prophets is "demanded back" of "this generation".
Jesus "led captivity captive" and emptied Sheol below of all the souls who had ever gone there to wait for the Atonement and deliverance from the first death.

The dream visions of Enoch, about Israel [the sheep] and the elect people [of the name]:

Enoch 89: 51 And again I saw those sheep that they again erred and went many ways, and forsook that their house, and the Lord of the sheep called some from amongst the sheep and sent them to the sheep, 52 but the sheep began to slay them. And one of them was saved and was not slain, and it sped away and cried aloud over the sheep; and they sought to slay it, but the Lord of the sheep saved it from 53 the sheep, and brought it up to me, and caused it to dwell there. And many other sheep He sent to those sheep to testify unto them and lament over them. And after that I saw that when they forsook the house of the Lord and His tower they fell away entirely, and their eyes were blinded;
To be called and sent is to be an "apostle". In the above Enoch [Wisdom of God] passage, Elijah is taken up to be with Enoch.
Enoch gives the books to Methusaleh which books he wrote in the year that the angels left him on earth, to write "Wisdom" for all the generations of the world. He often remarks that he is given wisdom of God and that he indeed writes the books, himself.

92: 1 The book written by Enoch-[Enoch indeed wrote this complete doctrine of wisdom, (which is) praised of all men and a judge of all the earth] for all my children who shall dwell on the earth. And for the future generations who shall observe uprightness and peace.
2 Let not your spirit be troubled on account of the times;
For the Holy and Great One has appointed days for all things.
3 And the righteous one shall arise from sleep,
[Shall arise] and walk in the paths of righteousness,
And all his path and conversation shall be in eternal goodness and grace.
4 He will be gracious to the righteous and give him eternal uprightness,
And He will give him power so that he shall be (endowed) with goodness and righteousness.
And he shall walk in eternal light.
And for those who were tortured and suffered persecution, [The Wisdom of God] written by Enoch has this comfort:
[Chapter 104]
1 I swear unto you, that in heaven the angels remember you for good before the glory of the Great 2 One: and your names are written before the glory of the Great One. Be hopeful; for aforetime ye were put to shame through ill and affliction; but now ye shall shine as the lights of heaven, 3 ye shall shine and ye shall be seen, and the portals of heaven shall be opened to you. And in your cry, cry for judgement, and it shall appear to you; for all your tribulation shall be visited on the 4 rulers, and on all who helped those who plundered you.
Be hopeful, and cast not away your hopes for ye shall have great joy as the angels of heaven. What shall ye be obliged to do ? Ye shall not have to hide on the day of the great judgement and ye shall not be found as sinners, and the eternal 6 judgement shall be far from you for all the generations of the world. And now fear not, ye righteous, when ye see the sinners growing strong and prospering in their ways: be not companions with them, 7 but keep afar from their violence; for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven. And, although ye sinners say: " All our sins shall not be searched out and be written down," nevertheless 8 they shall write down all your sins every day. And now I show unto you that light and darkness, 9 day and night, see all your sins. Be not godless in your hearts, and lie not and alter not the words of uprightness, nor charge with lying the words of the Holy Great One, nor take account of your 10 idols; for all your lying and all your godlessness issue not in righteousness but in great sin. And
now I know this mystery, that sinners will alter and pervert the words of righteousness in many ways, and will speak wicked words, and lie, and practice great deceits, and write books concerning 11 their words. But when they write down truthfully all my words in their languages, and do not change or minish ought from my words but write them all down truthfully -all that I first testified 12 concerning them. Then, I know another mystery, that books will be given to the righteous and the 13 wise to become a cause of joy and uprightness and much wisdom. And to them shall the books be given, and they shall believe in them and rejoice over them, and then shall all the righteous who have learnt therefrom all the paths of uprightness be recompensed.'
[Chapter 105]
1 In those days the Lord bade (them) to summon and testify to the children of earth concerning their wisdom: Show (it) unto them; for ye are their guides, and a recompense over the whole earth. 2 For I and My son will be united with them for ever in the paths of uprightness in their lives; and ye shall have peace: rejoice, ye children of uprightness. Amen.
for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven. =equal with, as/like the angels
and I and My son will be united with them for ever =one with the father through the Son.

Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

United with the Father through the Son is the teaching of Enoch, as above in Enoch [Wisdom given by God to him to teach]. That is not taught in the OT, but is in Enoch, and Jesus includes the truth of it in His prayers for His own.
Jesus called Enoch's writings "Wisdom of God", and Jesus called Enoch's writings "Scripture".
Jesus read Enoch and believed it.
So do I.
 
Upvote 0

Assyrian

Basically pulling an Obama (Thanks Calminian!)
Mar 31, 2006
14,868
991
Wales
✟42,286.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus never called the book of Enoch "Wisdom of God" or "Scripture". You are making that up.
I made up nothing and I use abundant Scripture proofs for my claims.
How about showing us where Jesus called the book of Enoch "Wisdom of God" or "Scripture"? He didn't. Not in any of the four gospels. Like I said, you are making it up. You probably believe it is true, but Jesus never said it. This is a common problem creationist have. They read things into what Jesus said, now that in itself is not a problem, we should build our house on Jesus words, the problem is thinking our architectural extravaganzas are what Jesus actually said. We need to learn the difference between Jesus' word's and our interpretations.

And you really need to stop accusing people of not believing the scriptures because they they don't follow your pet interpretation.

You do not believe the Scriptures -but maybe someone reading will, and will be encouraged to trust God's Words, and not men's words, who deny God's Words.
Evidence: Jesus speaks to the Jews;
Luke 11:48 Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres.
Therefore/this * * also/indeed said the wisdom of God, I will send * them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute/oppress with calamities : That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required/demanded back of this generation;

Verse 48 is past tense, Jesus expounded to the Jews that this is indeed what the Wisdom of God had said" they would do.
Then Jesus also says that they did it in order that the blood of all the prophets -from Abel on- would be demanded back of this generation"
It is the 70th generation after Enoch that the blood of all the prophets is "demanded back" of "this generation".
Jesus "led captivity captive" and emptied Sheol below of all the souls who had ever gone there to wait for the Atonement and deliverance from the first death.

The dream visions of Enoch, about Israel [the sheep] and the elect people [of the name]:

Enoch 89: 51 And again I saw those sheep that they again erred and went many ways, and forsook that their house, and the Lord of the sheep called some from amongst the sheep and sent them to the sheep, 52 but the sheep began to slay them. And one of them was saved and was not slain, and it sped away and cried aloud over the sheep; and they sought to slay it, but the Lord of the sheep saved it from 53 the sheep, and brought it up to me, and caused it to dwell there. And many other sheep He sent to those sheep to testify unto them and lament over them. And after that I saw that when they forsook the house of the Lord and His tower they fell away entirely, and their eyes were blinded;
To be called and sent is to be an "apostle". In the above Enoch [Wisdom of God] passage, Elijah is taken up to be with Enoch.
Enoch gives the books to Methusaleh which books he wrote in the year that the angels left him on earth, to write "Wisdom" for all the generations of the world. He often remarks that he is given wisdom of God and that he indeed writes the books, himself.
92: 1 The book written by Enoch-[Enoch indeed wrote this complete doctrine of wisdom, (which is) praised of all men and a judge of all the earth] for all my children who shall dwell on the earth. And for the future generations who shall observe uprightness and peace.
2 Let not your spirit be troubled on account of the times;
For the Holy and Great One has appointed days for all things.
3 And the righteous one shall arise from sleep,
[Shall arise] and walk in the paths of righteousness,
And all his path and conversation shall be in eternal goodness and grace.
4 He will be gracious to the righteous and give him eternal uprightness,
And He will give him power so that he shall be (endowed) with goodness and righteousness.
And he shall walk in eternal light.
And for those who were tortured and suffered persecution, [The Wisdom of God] written by Enoch has this comfort:
[Chapter 104]
1 I swear unto you, that in heaven the angels remember you for good before the glory of the Great 2 One: and your names are written before the glory of the Great One. Be hopeful; for aforetime ye were put to shame through ill and affliction; but now ye shall shine as the lights of heaven, 3 ye shall shine and ye shall be seen, and the portals of heaven shall be opened to you. And in your cry, cry for judgement, and it shall appear to you; for all your tribulation shall be visited on the 4 rulers, and on all who helped those who plundered you.
Be hopeful, and cast not away your hopes for ye shall have great joy as the angels of heaven. What shall ye be obliged to do ? Ye shall not have to hide on the day of the great judgement and ye shall not be found as sinners, and the eternal 6 judgement shall be far from you for all the generations of the world. And now fear not, ye righteous, when ye see the sinners growing strong and prospering in their ways: be not companions with them, 7 but keep afar from their violence; for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven. And, although ye sinners say: " All our sins shall not be searched out and be written down," nevertheless 8 they shall write down all your sins every day. And now I show unto you that light and darkness, 9 day and night, see all your sins. Be not godless in your hearts, and lie not and alter not the words of uprightness, nor charge with lying the words of the Holy Great One, nor take account of your 10 idols; for all your lying and all your godlessness issue not in righteousness but in great sin. And
now I know this mystery, that sinners will alter and pervert the words of righteousness in many ways, and will speak wicked words, and lie, and practice great deceits, and write books concerning 11 their words. But when they write down truthfully all my words in their languages, and do not change or minish ought from my words but write them all down truthfully -all that I first testified 12 concerning them. Then, I know another mystery, that books will be given to the righteous and the 13 wise to become a cause of joy and uprightness and much wisdom. And to them shall the books be given, and they shall believe in them and rejoice over them, and then shall all the righteous who have learnt therefrom all the paths of uprightness be recompensed.'
[Chapter 105]
1 In those days the Lord bade (them) to summon and testify to the children of earth concerning their wisdom: Show (it) unto them; for ye are their guides, and a recompense over the whole earth. 2 For I and My son will be united with them for ever in the paths of uprightness in their lives; and ye shall have peace: rejoice, ye children of uprightness. Amen.
for ye shall become companions of the hosts of heaven. =equal with, as/like the angels
and I and My son will be united with them for ever =one with the father through the Son.

Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

United with the Father through the Son is the teaching of Enoch, as above in Enoch [Wisdom given by God to him to teach]. That is not taught in the OT, but is in Enoch, and Jesus includes the truth of it in His prayers for His own.
Jesus called Enoch's writings "Wisdom of God", and Jesus called Enoch's writings "Scripture".
Jesus read Enoch and believed it.
So do I.
You posted all that the last time. It wasn't a good argument then and it isn't now.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Do you write "stories" to the IRS?

One certainly could. I expect a tax return would be much more interesting to read if it was in story form.

"Dear IRS,

You will be delighted to hear that I earned a steady income all year from my employment at company ABC....However, in June, my wife suffered a serious condition which kept her hospitalized for a month and required hiring a home care nurse on her return as well as enrolling the children in day care, for which expenses I am making a claim for .... (see receipts attached).... Also my investments with the firm X did not prosper and ...."

However, the problem might arise that the more articulate story-teller would find their deductions more easily approved than the less clear communicator, and that would not be fair. And besides, today tax returns are read by computers which depend on finding the numbers inserted into the correct place on the forms they scan.

You should not call God's Genesis record of creation a "story" for the same reason that you would not call your IRS records "stories".

As far as I know, no one ever gave God a form and said: "You must fill out your report in this format." To whom would God be accountable for how to tell his story? Is not God the best judge of how to communicate with his people?

We listed a house for sale a bit ago and discovered that an absolute factual disclosure was required on a long list of questions about its history. And if we did not answer absolutely truthfully everything -and more- we would be legally liable "forever", for any thing not truthfully reported. We did not write "a story" for that historical record of the history of our house.

Well, again you could have. Might have been more interesting than following a prescribed format. Nothing requires a story to be untruthful. A story is one way of presenting truth.


TE believers have a bias to the Genesis record/cepher/writing/history as absolute factual truth, and they want to believe the words of fallible men who have made up fairy tales -untrue fables

I sort of thought that might be your problem. You make the incorrect equation of "story"="untrue". As if every story was a lie.

It explains why you have a negative reaction to the word "story", but is it not ridiculous to suppose that every story ever told is untrue--a lie intended to deceive someone?

A story is a form of communication. Of course, just as one might lie on one's income tax return, one might lie in a story or tell a story with intent to deceive. But just as one might be honest on one's tax return, one might also convey truth in a story or tell a story to enlighten and educate. Stories are particularly helpful in the latter regard because they convey teachings vividly and pictorially in a way that is easy to remember and retell.



In the doctrine of TE, it takes 3000 more years of evolving minds to discover what the TE god really did do. The TE god had to wait for enlightened minds of modern men "discover" evolution!

Indeed, it was not possible to discover evolution without the history of scientific inquiry that led to it. But so what? It is not possible to discover God's great love for us through any line of scientific inquiry at all. So it wouldn't matter how "evolved" we became, we could never know God except through his gracious self-revelation.

And God did not wait--not even till people were able to put things in writing--which also took a historical time to evolve into a form of communication--to reveal himself to his people. God called Abraham without using any book to communicate with him. God revealed himself and his will to all his prophets, directly and not through written intermediaries.

What we needed to know from the beginning, what we needed to know about sin and salvation, and what we could never know through the study of nature, God revealed.

We didn't need to know anything about evolution to know the love of God and our need for redemption. So that is not found in the record of God's self-revelation. Just as information about far distant galaxies is not found in scripture, nor information about microbial life, nor information about the ecology of Arctic areas or the theory of music. There is a great deal of information that God knew we would discover on our own and need not be revealed. But God has never left himself without a witness on matters of salvation, for this is not knowledge that we could ever find out on our own.

So then, how does God tell us what it is we need to know? Is it not in the way that is most vivid and memorable? Through the stories of his people Israel and the story of his beloved son Jesus, whom he sent to us that we might know him and believe on him for our salvation?

How quickly the tax collector forgets the details of your tax return. Numbers fade quickly from the mind, to be replaced by more numbers and lists of house features dissolve into other lists of greater momentary importance. But stories, the great and vivid stories of Joshua and the walls of Jericho, David and Goliath, of the three children in the fiery furnace, of Ruth pledging to stay with Naomi, of the Prodigal Son and the Good Samaritan, and of the Lamb slain for the sins of the world---these we remember and are shaped by them.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.