Gospel of Christ Not Possible in TE Doctrine?

[yeshuasavedme]

Isn't Daniel 10 enough?

Where in Daniel 10:21, then, do you get "angel" to go with the "Archo"? rishown is the true word in Daniel 10 that means arch, or beginning, or chief, or head "sar". There must be a "head" or chief in the passages' translation to make it arch-angel.

I have no idea what you are talking about with 'N/A part of speech'

You said this:

Rishown may be derived from the word rosh, but it is still a different word with a different, if related, meaning. It is not a noun, ...Rishown is not a title like rosh, it is an adjective. In the LXX it is translated 'first' proton while sar is translated as archon, the way it is for all of the angelic sars in Daniel.

I said that rishown has N/A part of speech listed, in Daniel 10:13. You called it an adjective. -And "archo" in the NT, is a verb..

"archō verb" http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G757&t=KJV

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Strong's Number: 07223[/FONT]aw#)r[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Word Origin[/FONT] aw#)r [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]from (07221)[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Ri'shown[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]ree-shone'[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]TWOT[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]N/A[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]2097c[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Definition[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] adj [/FONT]

1. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]
   [*] first, primary, former
   
   1. former (of time)
      1. ancestors
      2. former things
   2. foremost (of location)
   3. first (in time)
   4. first, chief (in degree) adv
   
   [*] first, before, formerly, at first[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Translated Words[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]KJV (185) - aforetime, 1; before, 3; beginning, 4; chief, 3; first, 129; foremost, 3; former, 26; former things, 6; misc, 8; old time, 2; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]NAS (182) - ancestors, 3; before, 4; beginning, 2; chief, 1; chiefs, 1; earlier, 4; earlier things, 1; first, 113; first one, 2; first time, 1; forefathers, 1; foremost, 1; former, 25; former ones, 4; former things, 6; formerly, 6; front, 1; old, 1; older, 1; one in front, 1; past, 1; previous, 1; previously, 1; [/FONT]
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[yeshuasavedme]

You would certainly be on stronger ground speaking about Jude quoting from Enoch than when you tried to show Jesus did. But I supposed that is the point.

Daniel 10:13, 10:21 and 12:1. But yes he certainly understood archangel as the Greek for an angelic sar. I had a look at how the NT is translated into Hebrew, archangel is translated as sar ha'melachim, prince of angels. Now given that you think the book of Enoch was written by Enoch and handed to Methuselah before the flood, how do you think Enoch came up with a koine Greek word archangelos?

Enoch was written in ancient "Aramaic", one and the same originally, as the Hebrew.
It is Enoch who gives us the archangels' names and duties, and the word for them could be translated as chief, head, beginning, first [& etc], angels/messengers, as well as "arch" angels, which it is translated as.

Jesus quoted Enoch all the time; even more than He quoted from and referred to, "Bereshit".
The first book of the Torah is called "Bereshit", in Hebrew, for the same reason as Enoch's writing is called "Wisdom of God".

Jude tells us that the angels/Watchers [archangels], who fell, kept not their "arche";
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate = arche, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the Beginning ="Bereshit" it was not so.

Mar 10:6 But from the beginning/Bereshit of the creation God made them male and female.

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning/Bereshit was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning/Bereshit with God.

Jhn 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even [the same] that I said unto you from the beginning/Bereshit

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning/Bereshit, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it..

 

[yeshuasavedme]

...Jesus seemed to accept the Jewish Canon that ran from Genesis to Chronicles when he listed all the martyred saints from Abel to Zechariah.

There was no commonly accepted Jewish "canon" list when Jesus came in flesh. Many of the seers were hidden to the unbelieing rulers, by YHWH, because they did not believe the "Doctrine/Message of them.
They were "hidden" from the time of the desolation of their temple,when it was burned at the time they went into captivity.
Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers/ro'sh, the seers [Enoch is a seer and a prophet] hath he covered [1) to cover, conceal, hide].

There is a list given by Esdras that says there were " 24 books of the OT and 70 hidden books"

The Jews made a list after they rejected their LORD, whose name they bore. Their list was made in 1 AD, but not all Jews believed their list.
On Esdras [which I do not consider inspired, but the historical value of it is immense on what some of the Messianic Jewish thought was, at the time];

Raymond E. Brown writes of chs. 3-14: "This is the Apocalypse of Ezra, sometimes called 4 Ezra. By far the most important part of 2 Esdras, it is a Jewish work of about AD 100-120. The original Hebr or Aram texts have been lost, and so has the Gk version, which was presumably the basis for all the extant ancient translations. The Latin is the most important, published by B. Violet (GCS 18/1 [1910]); but the Syriac and Ethiopic are also of value. There is an Eng translation by G. H. Box in APOT 2, 542-624; also W. O. E. Oesterley in WC (1933). For the question of the original language, see J. Bloch, JQR 48 (1958) 293-94. The unity of the work has been questioned; see H. H. Rowley, Relevance, 156-59. The work concerns seven visions granted to Salathiel (=Shealtiel of Ezra 3:2 and 1 Chr 3:17, the father or uncle of Zerubbabel), who is identified in the gloss of 3:1 as Ezra (who, in fact, lived at least a century later!). Thus, the work mistakenly sets Ezra 30 years after the fall of Jerusalem in 587. The first four visions (3-10) concern the problem of evil, Israel's sufferings, God's plan for the last times, and the New Jerusalem. The real crisis in the author's life, for which he finds a parallel in his fictional setting, is the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 70. The fascinating story of the lost Lat text following 7:35 is told by B. Metzger in JBL 76 (1957) 153-56. The fifth or 'eagle' vision of chs. 11-12 uses symbolism to describe the Roman persecutors of the Jews, much as the contemporary NT Ap describes Rome as a dragon. In the sixth vision (13) a marvelous Man arises from the sea—he is the pre-existent Messiah come to wage war with the Gentiles. This passage has some similarities with the picture of the Son of Man in Enoch. In the seventh vision In the seventh vision (14) Ezra is told to write down the 24 books of the OT and the 70 hidden books (the apocrypha).(14)

And those unbelieving Jews of the first century who did make a "canon" list for "unbelievers" who rejected Jesus as the Son of Man from heaven sure made certain to ban Enoch; for which reason of their banning of Enoch those other certain men hundreds of years later also banned it.
Both groups of them claimed that Enoch was wrong when Enoch said ; "Watchers -angels/sons of God, married daughters of Adam".
But it is Enoch who is inspired, not the unbelieving Christ rejecting Jews of 1 AD; and not the certain men in a certain place hundreds of years after the Church was established -and had long used and quoted Enoch as Scripture; even calling it "Scripture", just as Jesus and His Apostles and brothers did.

The Septuagint translators also translated "ben elohym" as "angels" in certain places, when the Hebrew said "ben elohym"; therefore admitting that the Hebrew indeed said the ben elohym were angels, who married daughters of Adam. -which was my point that the Sadducees knew that Moses wrote that ben Elohym/angels, did indeed "marry", and so when Jesus said they knew not the Scripture that said that angels did not marry "in heaven", and that the resurrected saints were as =like, equal to, the angels in heaven, Jesus was then calling 1 Enoch "Scripture".

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[yeshuasavedme]

Instead Jesus seemed to accept the Jewish Canon that ran from Genesis to Chronicles when he listed all the martyred saints from Abel to Zechariah.

Jesus did not list all the martyred saints. Rather what He did say was that Abel was a murdered "prophet", whose blood would be to demanded back, required [g1567] from "This generation" =the one wicked generation and in the seventieth generation from Enoch, as 1 Enoch prophesied..
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

The words of Wisdom are double -Job 11:6 ...the secrets of wisdom, [are] double to that which is!;
Jesus is the "seventieth generation", counting from Enoch, with Methusaleh as number one, in which 70th generation the blood/souls of all the prophets would be demanded back from where they were held, in Sheol below, when all sin was "given to Azazel", fulfilling the Day of Atonement for all Adam, and when Jesus descended to Sheol and "led captivity captive".

The Upright Record =The Book of Jasher, has the prophecy of Abel recorded by Moses, which Abel prophecied and Jesus Himself fulfilled. Abel's prophecy has to do with the Day of Atonement, for which Day AbraHAm saw and rejoiced in, and waitied patiently in Sheol below earth, for, waiting there in confidence and rest, knowing that "YHWH would be SEEN" on Mount Moriah, as the Lamb of God prepared from the foundation of the world, for all people born in Adam's Atonement. AbraHAm knew that the Lamb of God would lead His redeemed out of Sheol [where they were held by the first death of separation from the Father of Glory], to the City of God on high; which AbraHAm, saw "afar off", and in which City of God Enoch went on ahead to, in his translated to glory body.

Only Enoch went to Sheol, [alive adn to report what he was shown] led by an archangel to it; and only Enoch wrote of Sheol and told what it was created for, and reported it in his writings.
Jesus spoke of it as Enoch saw it, in Luke 16. What Jesus told about it is not in the OT, but is only in 1 Enoch, as the foundational doctrine of Sheol below earth.

Luk 16:22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
Luk 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

The foundational doctrine for Sheol, as Jesus reveals it in Luke 16, is only found in Enoch. Not in the OT.

 

[Assyrian]

Does the bible say there were 70 Gentile nations and so 71 bene elohim?

Seventy languages mingled from the one mother tongue -plus the mother tongue; each tongue was a "family/nation/tribe" who had a heavenly sar over him. Michael was over those descended from Noah who would be the people of the New Man name.

At Tabernacles there were atonements made for the seventy nations, byt he Levitical priesthood, which included all the Gentiles dispersed from the one tongue at Babel, whose tongues have each grown up like trees, with branches and leaves on the branches to over 6,000 tongues.

59 And He called seventy shepherds..
And I saw those sheep burning and their bones burning. 28

I did ask if the bible said there were 70 Gentile nations. You do mention atonements made for the seventy nations at Tabernacles, but do not provide a scriptural reference. I will take your long quotation from Enoch as a 'No'.

Where in Daniel 10:21, then, do you get "angel" to go with the "Archo"?

You seriously think Daniel and every Jews who read the book since then didn't realise that Michael and the strange and terrifying glowing men bringing messages from God were angels?

rishown is the true word in Daniel 10 that means arch, or beginning, or chief, or head "sar". There must be a "head" or chief in the passages' translation to make it arch-angel.

Daniel 10:20, 10:21 and 12:1 sar is translated archon, while in Daniel 1:7,8,9,10&11 the sar of the eunuchs is translated archieunochos and sar of the host in Daniel 8:11 is tranlated archistrategos. However in Daniel 10:13, sar isn't translated archon, but by sheer conincidence there is another word in the Hebrew rishown that is translated archon. Right.

Why shouldn't proton, first or foremost be the word used to translate rishown first or chief, and sar be translated as archon as it is all the oter times it is used for an angel, including Michael himself in 10:21 and 12:1?

You said this:
I said that rishown has N/A part of speech listed, in Daniel 10:13. You called it an adjective. -And "archo" in the NT, is a verb.. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Strong's Number: 07223[/FONT]aw#)r[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Word Origin[/FONT] aw#)r [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]from (07221)[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Ri'shown[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]ree-shone'[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]TWOT[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]N/A[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]2097c[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Definition[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] adj [/FONT]

1. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]
   [*] first, primary, former
   
   1. former (of time)
      1. ancestors
      2. former things
   2. foremost (of location)
   3. first (in time)
   4. first, chief (in degree) adv
   
   [*] first, before, formerly, at first[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Looks like whatever software studylight used to convert their BDB dictionary, it misplaced the part of speech and listed it as N/A, not available, however it is there in the main part of the definition, I have highlighted it in red. It is [/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] adj [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]an adjective, as I said.

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Translated Words[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]KJV (185) - aforetime, 1; before, 3; beginning, 4; chief, 3; first, 129; foremost, 3; former, 26; former things, 6; misc, 8; old time, 2; [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]NAS (182) - ancestors, 3; before, 4; beginning, 2; chief, 1; chiefs, 1; earlier, 4; earlier things, 1; first, 113; first one, 2; first time, 1; forefathers, 1; foremost, 1; former, 25; former ones, 4; former things, 6; formerly, 6; front, 1; old, 1; older, 1; one in front, 1; past, 1; previous, 1; previously, 1; [/FONT]

Note how the most common translation of rishown is 'first'.

Lets have a look at studylight and the frequency of translations for these words. Sar and ri'shown in the Hebrew of Dan 10:13 are translated by the two words archon and protos

H7223 Ri'shown http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=007223
KJV (185) - aforetime, 1; before, 3; beginning, 4; chief, 3; first, 129; foremost, 3; former, 26; former things, 6; misc, 8; old time, 2;
NAS (182) - ancestors, 3; before, 4; beginning, 2; chief, 1; chiefs, 1; earlier, 4; earlier things, 1; first, 113; first one, 2; first time, 1; forefathers, 1; foremost, 1; former, 25; former ones, 4; former things, 6; formerly, 6; front, 1; old, 1; older, 1; one in front, 1; past, 1; previous, 1; previously, 1;

H8269 Sar http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=008269
KJV (421) - captain, 130; chief, 33; general, 1; governor, 6; keeper, 3; lords, 1; misc, 4; prince, 208; principal, 2; ruler, 33;
NAS (409) - Prince, 1; captain, 22; captains, 39; charge, 1; chief, 24; chief and commanders, 1; chiefs, 1; commander, 40; commanders, 49; governor, 3; heads, 1; leader, 2; leaders, 28; leading, 3; officer, 1; officers, 14; official, 9; officials, 35; overseers, 3; prince, 9; prince of princes, 1; princes, 109; quartermaster, 1; ruler, 1; rulers, 10; taskmasters, 1;

2064 Archon http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=758
KJV (37) - chief, 2; chief ruler, 1; magistrate, 1; prince, 11; ruler, 22;
NAS (36) - authorities, 1; leaders, 1; magistrate, 1; official, 2; official's, 1; prince, 1; ruler, 13; rulers, 16;

4413 Protos http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4413
KJV (104) - chief, 9; first, 84; first day, 2; former, 2; misc, 7;
NAS (156) - before, 3; best, 1; first, 128; first importance, 1; first man, 1; first of all, 2; first one, 1; first things, 1; first time, 1; foremost, 5; leading, 2; leading man, 1; leading men, 5; outer, 3; previous, 1;
​

Is ri'shown which is translated as ‘first’ 129 times out of 185 in the AV, translated as I suggested, by protos which is also translated ‘first’ 84 times out of 104.
Or is it translated by archon which simply isn’t translated first.

Is sar, which is translated prince 208 times out of 421 and ruler a further 33 times, translated as archon, ruler 22 times out of 37 and prince a further 11 times?
Or is it translated protos which isn’t translated prince or ruler, and is translated chief only 9 times out of 104, while sar is only only translated chief 33 times out of 421?

Enoch was written in ancient "Aramaic", one and the same originally, as the Hebrew.
It is Enoch who gives us the archangels' names and duties, and the word for them could be translated as chief, head, beginning, first [& etc], angels/messengers, as well as "arch" angels, which it is translated as.

So if Enoch was written in Aramaic, then it did not come up with the Greek title archangel, and your attempt to back translate Enoch form Greek to a supposed original Aramaic is sheer speculation. I will stick to angelic archons as the root of archangel. We know the archangel Michael was called a sar in Hebrew translated as archon in the LXX.

Jesus quoted Enoch all the time; even more than He quoted from and referred to, "Bereshit".
The first book of the Torah is called "Bereshit", in Hebrew, for the same reason as Enoch's writing is called "Wisdom of God".

Genesis is called Bereshit because the first line is
Gen 1:1: bereshit bara elohiym eth ha'shemim w'eth ha'erets.

The book of Enoch starts AFAIK "The words of the blessing of Enoch..." Do you have any evidence it started "Wisdom of God..." or was referred to as "Wisdom of God"?

Jude tells us that the angels/Watchers [archangels], who fell, kept not their "arche";
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate = arche, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the Beginning ="Bereshit" it was not so.

Mar 10:6 But from the beginning/Bereshit of the creation God made them male and female.

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning/Bereshit was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning/Bereshit with God.

Jhn 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even [the same] that I said unto you from the beginning/Bereshit

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning/Bereshit, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it..

You really need to watch how word are being used. Not every use refers to the same thing. I could talk about kings in the OT and you would only know from context if I am referring to human rulers or a book. In the same way just because 'from the beginning' translates back into Hebrew as bereshit, which is also the Hebrew name for the book fo Genesis, it does not mean every reference to beginning means the book of Genesis. John 15:27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning. Doesn't mean the disciples were there at the creation.

Incidentally while the AV translates Jude 6 the angels which kept not their first estate, most modern translations see it as the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, another meaning of arche.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I did ask if the bible said there were 70 Gentile nations. You do mention atonements made for the seventy nations at Tabernacles, but do not provide a scriptural reference. I will take your long quotation from Enoch as a 'No'.

No. you won't.
The seventy burnt offerings offered at Tabernacles represented the intercession for the seventy nations whose redeemed souls will all be "ingathered" in the last ingathering of the harvest [of souls born of Adam and either redeemed in the New Man name by adoption or cast aways into the lake of fire in the never dying "worm, the image of the old, dead, Adam man], which is to come at the end of the millennial Sabbath. That was understood by the nation of Israel from the beginning, as their ancient writings teach.

The division was into seventy languages mingled from the one, at Babel, the genealogy of the nations is listed in Genesis 10 and Jasher 10.
Gen 10:31 These [are] the sons of Shem, after their families, after their languages, in their lands, after their nations.
Gen 10:32 These [are] the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.
Jasher 10:3 And all the families became each according to its language, its land, or its city.
Jasher 10:37 And these are the families of the children of Shem according to their language and cities, after they were scattered upon the earth after the tower.
At the Feast of Tabernacles, which is also called the Feast of Nations, Feast of Ingathering, and Feast of Booths, Seventy bullocks were offered as burnt holocausts during the Feast, and the seventy represented the seventy Gentile nations. Israel was atoned for at the Day of Atonement just before, and none of the seventy bullocks represented the nation of Israel.

From Num 29- 'You shall present a burnt offering, an offering made by fire as a sweet aroma to the LORD: thirteen young bulls,...
...On the second day present twelve young bulls, two rams, fourteen lambs in their first year without blemish,...
...On the third day present eleven bulls, two rams, fourteen lambs in their first year without blemish,
...On the fourth day present ten bulls, two rams, and fourteen lambs in their first year, without blemish,
...On the fifth day present nine bulls, two rams, and fourteen lambs in their first year without blemish,
...On the sixth day present eight bulls, two rams, and fourteen lambs in their first year without blemish,
...On the seventh day present seven bulls, two rams, and fourteen lambs in their first year without blemish,
... So Moses told the children of Israel everything, just as the LORD commanded Moses.

In the Book of Jasher, YHWH said to the seventy angels who stood before Him: "Let us go down and confound their speech...". There were seventy angels who went with Him, and seventy tribes were formed by YHWH from the one mother tongue, and they were divided by seventy languages at that time of the fall of the tower. But those of Eber -from Shem and Noah, did not lose their edenic language, so there were then 71 languages, with one mother tongue.

In the Book of Jasher, an angel came to Joseph and taught him all the seventy languages in one night, which he did not know, so that he could serve under Pharaoh, for Egypt had a law that no one could rule who could not speak all the seventy [other] languages.
There were seventy steps leading to the throne of the Pharoah, which one could ascend a step at a time, only by speaking in one of the seventy languages for each step, to the seat of authority.

As a prince in Egypt, Moses learned all the seventy languages -besides the Edenic/Hebrew mother tongue. This is historical fact as written in the ancient Jewish history. You can research it for yourself.

For the reason that there were seventy nations divided at Babel into the seventy tribal languages, according to the genealogy of the nations listed in Genesis 10, the ancient Jews required that those seventy chosen to be rulers and judge it, must be chosen from men who could represent the seventy languages/tribes of the Gentiles. That is historical fact, which you can research for yourself.

From Genesis 11 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

Moses wrote Jasher [but for that which Joshua compiled after Moses 'death'; Jasher states that Moses and Joshua wrote the "Upright Record"] and Moses wrote "Beginning/Bereshit" -Genesis. Bereshit is a redacted version of what Moses wrote in the "Upright Record", but Jasher itself is a redaction of the written testimonies of the Patriarchs, themselves, which were thier own records recorded by them, of their own lives and events. Great men have done the same, from the beginning of creation, as Adam wrote the reocrds used by Moses on the genalogies of his family which the wording of Genesis 5 and Jasher 5 state. Adam did not die for 930 years, and did not die until after Enoch was established by God as the teacher of righteous, the king of righteousness, and the intercessor for the seed of Adam, until he was translated, after which Methusaleh continued to teach in the same authority -with Lamech an associate but not with the same authority- and then Noah was with Methusaleh as the teacher of rigthteousness with Methusaleh, who preached righteousness to the seed of Adam, together for 120 years, before the flood.
After the flood Noah and Shem were the teachers of righteousness to the seed of Adam who survived the flood. Even though men under Nimrod departed from the ways of YHWH, Noah and Shem were able to instruct Abram in the ways of YHWH, when he was hidden with him for 29 years when Nimrod sought to kill him. And Shem later passed the mantle of "teacher of righteousness" to Abram, after his victory over Amraphael =Nimrod, and the four kings with him, who had taken Lot& Co from Sodom.
Shem was Melche -Zedek ="King of Righteousness", and the "priest of the Most High God", who met Abram after his victory over the five kings. These things are recorded in the "Upright Record" written by Moses.
It's all in Jasher, the Upright Record. Jos 10:13 ... [Is] not this written in the book of Jasher? So 2Sa 1:18 .... behold, [it is] written in the book of Jasher.

JAsher 49:8-21 And the king said to all the officers: I have thought that since God has made known to the Hebrew man all that he has spoken, there is none so discreet and wise in the whole land as he is; if it seem good in your sight I will place him over the land, for he will save the land with his wisdom.
And all the officers answered the king and said, But surely it is written in the laws of Egypt, and it should not be violated, that no man shall reign over Egypt, nor be the second to the king, but one who has knowledge in all the languages of the sons of men.
Now therefore our lord and king, behold this Hebrew man can only speak the Hebrew language, and how then can he be over us the second under government, a man who not even knoweth our language?
Now we pray thee send for him, and let him come before thee, and prove him in all things, and do as thou see fit.
And the king said, It shall be done tomorrow, and the thing that you have spoken is good; and all the officers came on that day before the king.
And on that night the Lord sent one of his ministering angels, and he came into the land of Egypt unto Joseph, and the angel of the Lord stood over Joseph, and behold Joseph was lying in the bed at night in his master's house in the dungeon, for his master had put him back into the dungeon on account of his wife.
And the angel roused him from his sleep, and Joseph rose up and stood upon his legs, and behold the angel of the Lord was standing opposite to him; and the angel of the Lord spoke with Joseph, and he taught him all the languages of man in that night, and he called his name Jehoseph.
And the angel of the Lord went from him, and Joseph returned and lay upon his bed, and Joseph was astonished at the vision which he saw.
And it came to pass in the morning that the king sent for all his officers and servants, and they all came and sat before the king, and the king ordered Joseph to be brought, and the king's servants went and brought Joseph before Pharaoh.
And the king came forth and ascended the steps of the throne, and Joseph spoke unto the king in all languages, and Joseph went up to him and spoke unto the king until he arrived before the king in the seventieth step, and he sat before the king.
And the king greatly rejoiced on account of Joseph, and all the king's officers rejoiced greatly with the king when they heard all the words of Joseph.
And the thing seemed good in the sight of the king and the officers, to appoint Joseph to be second to the king over the whole land of Egypt, and the king spoke to Joseph, saying,
Now thou didst give me counsel to appoint a wise man over the land of Egypt, in order with his wisdom to save the land from the famine; now therefore, since God has made all this known to thee, and all the words which thou hast spoken, there is not throughout the land a discreet and wise man like unto thee.
And thy name no more shall be called Joseph, but Zaphnath Paaneah shall be thy name; thou shalt be second to me, and according to thy word shall be all the affairs of my government

 

[Assyrian]

There was no commonly accepted Jewish "canon" list when Jesus came in flesh. Many of the seers were hidden to the unbelieing rulers, by YHWH, because they did not believe the "Doctrine/Message of them.
They were "hidden" from the time of the desolation of their temple,when it was burned at the time they went into captivity.
Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers/ro'sh, the seers [Enoch is a seer and a prophet] hath he covered [1) to cover, conceal, hide].

There is a list given by Esdras that says there were " 24 books of the OT and 70 hidden books"

The Jews made a list after they rejected their LORD, whose name they bore. Their list was made in 1 AD, but not all Jews believed their list.
On Esdras [which I do not consider inspired, but the historical value of it is immense on what some of the Messianic Jewish thought was, at the time];

I am afraid the reason you give for the 70 book being described as 'hidden' sounds a bit ad hom to me. You disagree with them, so their motivation must have been unbelief. We do know the canon wasn't universally accepted in the time of Christ. the Sadducees only accepted the Pentateuch the goings on in both the Song of Solomon and Ezekiel raised further eyebrows. But the canon that came to be universally accepted after the fall of Jerusalem did not come out of the blue, it was what a great many accepted as scripture before Jerusalem fell, before Christ's ministry. And we can see in Christ's description of prophets from Abel to Zechariah that it is what he saw as the canon and arrangement of scripture too.

And those unbelieving Jews of the first century who did make a "canon" list for "unbelievers" who rejected Jesus as the Son of Man from heaven sure made certain to ban Enoch; for which reason of their banning of Enoch those other certain men hundreds of years later also banned it.
Both groups of them claimed that Enoch was wrong when Enoch said ; "Watchers -angels/sons of God, married daughters of Adam".
But it is Enoch who is inspired, not the unbelieving Christ rejecting Jews of 1 AD; and not the certain men in a certain place hundreds of years after the Church was established -and had long used and quoted Enoch as Scripture; even calling it "Scripture", just as Jesus and His Apostles and brothers did.

The Septuagint translators also translated "ben elohym" as "angels" in certain places, when the Hebrew said "ben elohym"; therefore admitting that the Hebrew indeed said the ben elohym were angels, who married daughters of Adam. -which was my point that the Sadducees knew that Moses wrote that ben Elohym/angels, did indeed "marry", and so when Jesus said they knew not the Scripture that said that angels did not marry "in heaven", and that the resurrected saints were as =like, equal to, the angels in heaven, Jesus was then calling 1 Enoch "Scripture".

We have been through that. He wasn't calling Enoch scripture. He didn't even mention Enoch.. Why would the Sadducees be worried about how some Jews in Alexandria translated the book of Job when they didn't even consider Job scripture, let alone a Greek translation?

Jesus did not list all the martyred saints. Rather what He did say was that Abel was a murdered "prophet", whose blood would be to demanded back, required [g1567] from "This generation"

Jesus did not list all the prophets, instead he spoke of Luke 11:50 the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah. Abel to Zechariah spans all of the prophets God sent, not chronologically, but from the start of the Jewish canon in Genesis to Chronicles at the other end.

=the one wicked generation and in the seventieth generation from Enoch, as 1 Enoch prophesied..
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

The words of Wisdom are double -Job 11:6 ...the secrets of wisdom, [are] double to that which is!;
Jesus is the "seventieth generation", counting from Enoch, with Methusaleh as number one, in which 70th generation the blood/souls of all the prophets would be demanded back from where they were held, in Sheol below, when all sin was "given to Azazel", fulfilling the Day of Atonement for all Adam, and when Jesus descended to Sheol and "led captivity captive".

The Upright Record =The Book of Jasher, has the prophecy of Abel recorded by Moses, which Abel prophecied and Jesus Himself fulfilled. Abel's prophecy has to do with the Day of Atonement, for which Day AbraHAm saw and rejoiced in, and waitied patiently in Sheol below earth, for, waiting there in confidence and rest, knowing that "YHWH would be SEEN" on Mount Moriah, as the Lamb of God prepared from the foundation of the world, for all people born in Adam's Atonement. AbraHAm knew that the Lamb of God would lead His redeemed out of Sheol [where they were held by the first death of separation from the Father of Glory], to the City of God on high; which AbraHAm, saw "afar off", and in which City of God Enoch went on ahead to, in his translated to glory body.

Only Enoch went to Sheol, [alive adn to report what he was shown] led by an archangel to it; and only Enoch wrote of Sheol and told what it was created for, and reported it in his writings.
Jesus spoke of it as Enoch saw it, in Luke 16. What Jesus told about it is not in the OT, but is only in 1 Enoch, as the foundational doctrine of Sheol below earth.

The foundational doctrine for Sheol, as Jesus reveals it in Luke 16, is only found in Enoch. Not in the OT.

The bible doesn’t mention anything about seventy generations, and besides the count will be different if you use the genealogy in Matthew.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I am afraid the reason you give for the 70 book being described as 'hidden' sounds a bit ad hom to me. You disagree with them, so their motivation must have been unbelief. We do know the canon wasn't universally accepted in the time of Christ. the Sadducees only accepted the Pentateuch the goings on in both the Song of Solomon and Ezekiel raised further eyebrows. But the canon that came to be universally accepted after the fall of Jerusalem did not come out of the blue, it was what a great many accepted as scripture before Jerusalem fell, before Christ's ministry.

Where is your complete list of "canon" accepted by "a great many" "before Jerusalem fell"?
What part of it do you subscribe to -if you can find such a list- and what part of it do you not subscribe to -if you can find such a list?

The historical fact is that the unbelieving Jews "banned" 1 Enoch only after they rejected the Son of Man, who was seen in heaven by Enoch, with God, hidden, whose name was secret, and who was God and who was the Messiah who was to come.
The Qumran community and the Messianic born again in Christ Jews never banned Enoch, neither did the Ethiopian Jewish converts to Christianity, who kept Enoch in their "inspired Scripture" along with other books that are exclusively Jewish. -Enoch is not exclusively Jewish.

One of the books kept and read as Scripture by many Believing Jews was the Book of Jubilees, which is also in the Ethiopian Bible because they were Jewish converts to Christianity who never followed the hellenized "Christians" of Rome. Jubilees is a strange book that is not inspired as it does not agree with Moses' writings [Jasher and the Torah] nor with 1 Enoch. It is obviously based upon some things which ancient Jews knew from Enoch's writings, like the Astronomical calendar, and the reasoning for that calendar is explained in Jubilees, but Jubilees itself is not in agreement on names and times and events with Moses' Jasher record and Genesis record, which do agree. However: Peter had and read and believed Jubilees to be inspired, and Jesus delivered Peter from a great error which Peter got from "holding" Jubilees, when in Acts the LORD gave Peter the vision of the sheet let down with the unclean... in it and the command to ..."eat".
When one reads Jubilees one discovers that Peter did read it and believed it and got from it the statement which he made to Cornelius, which God had shown Him not to hold to.
Anyway, Peter believed Jubilees was "canon", and the Ethiopian Jews believed Jubilees was "Canon", and the Essene community believed Jubilees was "canon", so where is your list of a common list of Canon" held by the Jews before the fall of Jerusalem?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Why would the Sadducees be worried about how some Jews in Alexandria translated the book of Job when they didn't even consider Job scripture, let alone a Greek translation?

The Sadducees did not consider anything inspired of God. They were like the TEists who do not believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture. That's why Jesus said to beware of their leaven/doctrine.

Back to the archangels, why is it that you want Michael to be an archangel in the Septuagint? THe Septuagint does not say "archangel". The Hebrew-Aramaic does say he is a ri'shown sar. "Rishown" gives him the title of a "chief" sar. If he is not a "ri'shown" sar, then the translation of him as archo makes no sense from Daniel as to relating Him to the Archangel in Jude and Timothy; and then Paul and Jude did not get "archangel" from Daniel 10 as you claim, for that is not what it says, according to your logic. There is just no "chief" about the "sar" in your version.
All the sars are "archangels" in your version, even all the earthly kings and leaders and judges. You are missing something, that Michael is the "rishown", the chief of the angels who are chiefs [sars].

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The bible doesn’t mention anything about seventy generations, and besides the count will be different if you use the genealogy in Matthew.

Jesus is the seventy seventh generation from Adam. Jesus is the seventieth from Enoch -counting Methusaleh as the first from Enoch you get to Jesus as the seventieth, which is the generation that the blood of all the prophets is "demanded back". This was a prophecy of the Atonement, given in Enoch, the "seventh from Adam".
Luke understood this because Luke, a companion of Paul and Barnabas [who was one of the seventy elect disciples of Jesus, and brother of Mary, the mother of John Mark], was a reader of 1 Enoch, and Luke believed it was "inspired by God", just as Jesus and all the quthors of the NT and the companions of Jesus also did. Barnabas wrote his own epistle, in which he states that Enoch is Scripture.


As to "this" generation: All seed of the devil are counted as one generation of the wicked. They are children of the devil, who believe his evil lies and who obey his evil doctrines. Cain was warned in Genesis 4 that "sin lies at the door reaching out lustily for you, to have dominion over you". Cain did not heed YHWH's warning, and became a seed of that wicked one, and slew his brother, the prophet Abel.
Cain then, is a "brother" in the wicked generation of this earth, to Judas; who are both "children of the wicked one" and "sons of perdition", by their own freewill choices of letting satan "enter the door".

All seed of the LORD are also counted as one generation of the righteous They are the children of God, who believe His truth and obey His doctrines.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

1Jo 3:12 .. Cain, was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. ...
Genesis 4:7 ...chatta'ah rabats pethach tĕshuwqah mashal...sin [is] couching [at the] entry/door, lusting to rule/have dominion [over you].

Jhn 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon. Jhn 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Sin entered Judas' "door", just as "sin" entered Cain's "door", and they are brothers. children of wrath and they join all who are "this one evil generation" of sons of the devil.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

...
The book of Enoch starts AFAIK "The words of the blessing of Enoch..." Do you have any evidence it started "Wisdom of God..." or was referred to as "Wisdom of God"?
...

You really need to watch how word are being used. Not every use refers to the same thing. .

Context is everything in translation, isn't it.
Why did Paul and Jude call Michael "archangel"? -The reason is that Enoch named him as the chief one and one of the chiefs. Daniel also has him as "one/echad [of the] chiefs, in Daniel 10. so if Daniel 10 is calling Michael an archangel, then he is called "one/echad" archangel. Where are the others? -named in Enoch, and all through the Bible, as ministering angels; heavenly rulers; enthroned principalities; powers; watchers; sons of God; mighty ones/gebers; and so on, who are set over Adamkind and of whom some fell; and apparently some still fall -or will fall.


Enoch wrote books all of which are wisdom from God.
Section II. Chapters XXXVII-LXXI
The Parables
[Chapter 37]
1 The second vision which he saw, the vision of wisdom -which Enoch the son of Jared, the son 2 of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, saw. And this is the beginning of the words of wisdom which I lifted up my voice to speak and say to those which dwell on earth: Hear, ye men of old time, and see, ye that come after, the words of the Holy 3 One which I will speak before the Lord of Spirits. It were better to declare (them only) to the men of old time, but even from those that come after we will not withhold the beginning of wisdom. 4 Till the present day such wisdom has never been given by the Lord of Spirits as I have received according to my insight, according to the good pleasure of the Lord of Spirits by whom the lot of 5 eternal life has been given to me. Now three Parables were imparted to me, and I lifted up my voice and recounted them to those that dwell on the earth.


Why don't you read 1 Enoch for yourself? Jesus did. Paul did. Jude did. James did. Peter did. John did. Hannah did. Isaiah did. The Qumran community did. Barnabas did. Tertullien did. Origen did. Iraneas did. Clement did. David the Psalmist did. Solomon did. Job & co did.

The watchers did. Their sons did.

BTW, on unfinished business: Enoch said the women/females of the fallen watchers would be sirens in the earth. I posted that the two women in Zech 5 are sirens and you denied that they were.

Enoch
chapter 15]
8 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon 9 the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; 10 they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless 12 hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.

Chapter 19]
1 And Uriel said to me: 'Here shall stand the angels who have connected themselves with women, and their spirits [the disembodied demon offspring] assuming many different forms are defiling mankind and shall lead them astray into sacrificing to demons as gods,(here shall they stand,) till the day of the great judgement in 2 which they shall be judged till they are made an end of. And the women also of the angels who 3 went astray shall become sirens.' And I, Enoch, alone saw the vision, the ends of all things: and no man shall see as I have seen.

As the angels married daughters of Adam; and as unrepentent Adam souls go to Sheol below earth at the death of the body, until their pre-appointed day of judgment; and as the disembodied spirits of the nephillim are the demons/evil spirits who roam earth until Jesus comes, to set up His millennial kingdom of peace; then the women in that passage who become sirens are the disembodied females offspring of the Watchers, not their wives, who were daughters of Adam.
I could be wrong on their being their daughters -female offspring- rather than their wives who were daughtrers of Adam. But at this point I haven't seen anything to convince me they really should be the spirit/souls of the disembodied wives of the Watchers. All the offspring were doomed to roam earth disembodied, and so I think these women are daughters of the Watchers.

Sirens are, among other things, depicted as women with stork features, in ancient lore, so the two with stork wings, in Zechariah, are demon sirens. [real sirens also have stork feet, but Zechariah did not have to mention that. We know what the "women" are, if we know history and if we know Enoch.
The demons can "shapeshift" [just like in Jasher and the NT, the devil can shapeshift to appear as an "angel of light" -and other things], as 1 Enoch 19: 1 says, above.

Demon sirens, in Zech 5:

Zec 5:7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this [is] a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.
Zec 5:6 And I said, What [is] it? And he said, This [is] an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This [is] their resemblance through all the earth.
Zec 5:8 And he said, This [is] wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Zec&c=5&v=1&t=KJV#comm/9Zec 5:9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind [was] in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.

Zec 5:10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
Zec 5:11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

"Wickedness" is destined for a base set in the land of Shinar/Iraq. Two sirens, demon women spirits, are in charge of it.

 

[Assyrian]

Where is your complete list of "canon" accepted by "a great many" "before Jerusalem fell"?
What part of it do you subscribe to -if you can find such a list- and what part of it do you not subscribe to -if you can find such a list?

As you well know we only have lists from after. But we have no reason to think the Rabbis who gave us these lists plucked them from thin air, rather than compiling the lists of scriptures long acknowledged in the synagogues. You can find the same categories of scripture used after the fall of Jerusalem, the Law and the Prophets, or the Law the Prophets and Psalms as Jesus used. Jesus even summed up the prophets found in scripture as running from Genesis to Chronicles, the first and last books in the list of the Jewish canon we read of later. Do you think this is just a wild coincidence? Jesus just happened to mention prophets from the beginning of the first and the end of the last book of the canon to sum up all the prophets God sent? Or maybe the Rabbi who composed the Jewish canon later were so taken by the teaching of Jesus that they had to follow his lead? Honestly jsm, you take the vaguest connections as proof Jesus was quoting Enoch, but simple straightforward evidence Jesus knew and used a very similar canon to the Jewish canon we know from after the fall of Jerusalem is rejected because he didn't list every book.

The historical fact is that the unbelieving Jews "banned" 1 Enoch only after they rejected the Son of Man, who was seen in heaven by Enoch, with God, hidden, whose name was secret, and who was God and who was the Messiah who was to come. The Qumran community and the Messianic born again in Christ Jews never banned Enoch, neither did the Ethiopian Jewish converts to Christianity, who kept Enoch in their "inspired Scripture" along with other books that are exclusively Jewish. -Enoch is not exclusively Jewish.

Not sure what you mean by 'banned' but the issue is whether it was regarded as scripture. There is plenty of scope in between scripture and banned for holy books and respected teachings and traditions.

One of the books kept and read as Scripture by many Believing Jews was the Book of Jubilees, which is also in the Ethiopian Bible because they were Jewish converts to Christianity who never followed the hellenized "Christians" of Rome. Jubilees is a strange book that is not inspired as it does not agree with Moses' writings [Jasher and the Torah] nor with 1 Enoch. It is obviously based upon some things which ancient Jews knew from Enoch's writings, like the Astronomical calendar, and the reasoning for that calendar is explained in Jubilees, but Jubilees itself is not in agreement on names and times and events with Moses' Jasher record and Genesis record, which do agree. However: Peter had and read and believed Jubilees to be inspired, and Jesus delivered Peter from a great error which Peter got from "holding" Jubilees, when in Acts the LORD gave Peter the vision of the sheet let down with the unclean... in it and the command to ..."eat".
When one reads Jubilees one discovers that Peter did read it and believed it and got from it the statement which he made to Cornelius, which God had shown Him not to hold to.
Anyway, Peter believed Jubilees was "canon", and the Ethiopian Jews believed Jubilees was "Canon", and the Essene community believed Jubilees was "canon", so where is your list of a common list of Canon" held by the Jews before the fall of Jerusalem?

Any evidence for your claims about Peter?

The Sadducees did not consider anything inspired of God. They were like the TEists who do not believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture. That's why Jesus said to beware of their leaven/doctrine.

Then why did Jesus say Matt 16:6 beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. In Mark 8:15 beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod. And in Luke 12:1 Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. Besides the Sadducees were literalists, at least as far as the law of Moses was concerned. What Jesus meant by leaven wasn't not being literalists but Matt 16:12 Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. And Luke 12:1 the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

There is a great temptation to read a passage people are being criticised and thinking automatically it must apply to those you disagree with.

Back to the archangels, why is it that you want Michael to be an archangel in the Septuagint? THe Septuagint does not say "archangel". The Hebrew-Aramaic does say he is a ri'shown sar. "Rishown" gives him the title of a "chief" sar. If he is not a "ri'shown" sar, then the translation of him as archo makes no sense from Daniel as to relating Him to the Archangel in Jude and Timothy; and then Paul and Jude did not get "archangel" from Daniel 10 as you claim, for that is not what it says, according to your logic. There is just no "chief" about the "sar" in your version.

Little point in carrying on that discussion, you don't deal with my point about the Hebrew and Greek and simply repeat your old point over again.

All the sars are "archangels" in your version, even all the earthly kings and leaders and judges. You are missing something, that Michael is the "rishown", the chief of the angels who are chiefs [sars].

Did you miss the bit about the sar of eunuchs being translated archieunochos and the sar of the army archistrategos?

Jesus is the seventy seventh generation from Adam. Jesus is the seventieth from Enoch -counting Methusaleh as the first from Enoch you get to Jesus as the seventieth, which is the generation that the blood of all the prophets is "demanded back". This was a prophecy of the Atonement, given in Enoch, the "seventh from Adam".
Luke understood this because Luke, a companion of Paul and Barnabas [who was one of the seventy elect disciples of Jesus, and brother of Mary, the mother of John Mark], was a reader of 1 Enoch, and Luke believed it was "inspired by God", just as Jesus and all the quthors of the NT and the companions of Jesus also did. Barnabas wrote his own epistle, in which he states that Enoch is Scripture.

Luke believed it but forgot to point out the seventy generations in his genealogy between Enoch and Jesus, while Matthew who had a much shorter number of generation in his genealogy did count them out.

As to "this" generation: All seed of the devil are counted as one generation of the wicked. They are children of the devil, who believe his evil lies and who obey his evil doctrines. Cain was warned in Genesis 4 that "sin lies at the door reaching out lustily for you, to have dominion over you". Cain did not heed YHWH's warning, and became a seed of that wicked one, and slew his brother, the prophet Abel.
Cain then, is a "brother" in the wicked generation of this earth, to Judas; who are both "children of the wicked one" and "sons of perdition", by their own freewill choices of letting satan "enter the door".

All seed of the LORD are also counted as one generation of the righteous They are the children of God, who believe His truth and obey His doctrines.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

1Jo 3:12 .. Cain, was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. ...
Genesis 4:7 ...chatta'ah rabats pethach tĕshuwqah mashal...sin [is] couching [at the] entry/door, lusting to rule/have dominion [over you].

Jhn 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [it]. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave [it] to Judas Iscariot, [the son] of Simon. Jhn 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Sin entered Judas' "door", just as "sin" entered Cain's "door", and they are brothers. children of wrath and they join all who are "this one evil generation" of sons of the devil.

Anyway, where is the prophecy about 'this generation' the seventieth generation from Enoch being held responsible for the blood of all the prophets?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

As you well know we only have lists from after.

No, we have the DSS and we know what Jesus and the Apostles read and quoted from and what the early believers called Scripture -including Enoch. Jesus and Paul used Jasher and Enoch, as the author of Hebrews did [and probably Paul wrote Hebrews -else Apollos did, who was mighty in all the Scriptures]
Please remember that the "Rabbis who gave [?] you the list you follow [do you?] had already rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah, and they had no Light and their seers and prophets remained "hidden";
Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

And the Septuagint that the Apostles read and quoted from included all the apocrypha which you do not accept -right?

Jesus even summed up the prophets found in scripture as running from Genesis to Chronicles, the first and last books in the list of the Jewish canon we read of later. Do you think this is just a wild coincidence? Jesus just happened to mention prophets from the beginning of the first and the end of the last book of the canon to sum up all the prophets God sent?

The problem with your statement and belief [which you keep repeating, with no foundational reason for it] is that there is no place in Genesis where Abel is called a prophet. Nor is there any prophecy which Abel gave, written in the OT, anywhere.
So Jesus is not calling Genesis the "first record" when He speaks of the "blood of all the prophets...from Abel.." required in "this generation".

Esdras that says there were " 24 books of the OT and 70 hidden books" Where is the list of the hidden books?
-Are they these; Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

Abel's prophecy is in Jasher chapter 1. Abel is a prophet because of what he prophesied, which is recorded in Jasher, chapter 1; So Jesus is referring to Jasher on that statement of Abel being a prophet and Jesus gives authority to Jasher, as a true record and to Enoch as true Scripture.

There is in Jasher the place where Abel does give the prophecy about YHWH avenging his blood if Cain killed him. Cain killed Him, and his blood was "demanded back" in the 70th generation after Enoch, as is written in a fragment of Noah in Enoch. I pasted that in a former post, from Enoch, about the Day of Atonement, as given in the parables of Enoch.

Any evidence for your claims about Peter?

Of course. Will you read Acts 10, so that I don't have to paste it?
See how the LORD dealt so powerfully with Peter about his deep beliefs against going with the Gentiles? Act 10:28 Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

That is not written anywhere in the Torah -no where- but it is written in the Book of Jubilees, which was considered Scripture by many Jews, including the Ethiopian Jews who converted to Christ and to the Jews in the Qumran community, who held Jubilees as Scripture. It is believed that John the Baptist was with the Essenes in the wilderness, before He came "preparing the Way of the LORD".
Now Jubilees does not agree with Genesis and Jasher and Enoch, but maybe there is a core truth in it which has become greatly corrupted; but nevertheless, Peter believed Jubilees as the Word of YHWH, in that matter.

Jubilees 22:
16 And do thou, my son Jacob, remember my words,
And observe the commandments of Abraham, thy father:
Separate thyself from the nations,
And eat not with them:
And do not according to their works,
And become not their associate;
For their works are unclean,
And all their ways are a Pollution and an abomination and uncleanness.

Act 10:28 Then he said to them,
"You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man
to keep company with or go to one of another nation.
But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Assyrian,
I also want to point out that Peter's vision presented the "unclean" nations represented to Peter in the totemic manner that is straight out of 1 Enoch, in the parable of the dream visions, which is "wisdom of God".
So because the nations were represented to Peter in the vision, three times, in the manner which only Enoch wrote of them in the dream visions, then Peter certainly understood when the three Gentile men who asked for him were "clean", and that he must obey and "go with them, doubting nothing".

Acts 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

Jubilees 22:
16 And do thou, my son Jacob, remember my words,
And observe the commandments of Abraham, thy father:
Separate thyself from the nations,
And eat not with them:
And do not according to their works,
And become not their associate;
For their works are unclean,
And all their ways are a Pollution and an abomination and uncleanness.

Act 10:28 Then he said to them,
"You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man
to keep company with or go to one of another nation.
But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven....
Act 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
Act 10:20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Anyway, where is the prophecy about 'this generation' the seventieth generation from Enoch being held responsible for the blood of all the prophets?

There are two different contexts to "this generation" in Jesus' doctrine. One generation is the wicked, as I wrote in a former post, who are all the sons of the devil [they pass away after all things written in Enoch are fulfilled, as Jesus also said, and as David wrote of in Psalm 37].
The blood of all the prophets is "required" -demanded back- in this generation, which "this generation" is Jesus'. That is speaking of the Atonement, in the seventieth generation, when Azazel is given "all sin" and is cast into the lake of fire.
I did write extensively about that doctrine of the Atonement, from Enoch, in a former post.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Besides the Sadducees were literalists, at least as far as the law of Moses was concerned. ...

How can they be "literalists" when they do not believe in the resurrection or in angels nor souls of men?
Mat 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
Act 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit [souls]: but the Pharisees confess both.

All the sars are "archangels" in your version, even all the earthly kings and leaders and judges. You are missing something, that Michael is the "rishown", the chief of the angels who are chiefs [sars].
​

Did you miss the bit about the sar of eunuchs being translated archieunochos and the sar of the army archistrategos?

You do a good job of looking things up, and it is a lot of work -hours and hours go into looking things up and pasting them and I appreciate your zeal. I hope you enjoy what you do as much as I enjoy what I do. -But what I want you to explain, now, is how Paul and Jude called Michael an archangel, and how in Daniel Michael is called "one/echad" of the "chief" sars if there are no archangels as Enoch wrote of them?

Where did Paul get the foundational doctrine for this statement from, in the "canon"; Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities/arche,
against powers/exousia,
against the rulers/kosmokratōr of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high/epouranios [places]?

Paul quoted Enoch and Jasher many, many, times also.
Paul quotes from Enoch, here;
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Enoch [Chapter 50]
1 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect,
And the light of days shall abide upon them,
And glory and honour shall turn to the holy,
2 On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.
And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits:

Paul quoted from Enoch's dioctrine of the Son of Man in heaven in 1 Cor 7: 7when he said;
but we speak/preach/tell wisdom, God in mystery hidden whom God ordained from eternity unto our Glory.We who are in Christ are now hidden in God with Him, until His revealing to the world, when we shall be revealed in Glory with Him, at His second coming which John tells about -but Enoch wrote of first..

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Paul quoted from Jasher, in 2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
Only Jasher names the sons of Ba'alim, magicians who withstood Moses before Pharoah.

The author of Hebrews read and used Enoch and Jasher in many places. Here's one, where he used what is written in both Jasher and Enoch, to make one statement about Enoch;
Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him [from Jasher]: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God [from Enoch].

Jesus spoke from Enoch about Himself as the Son of Man who was in heaven, and who is come down from heaven, and who will ascend back to heaven, as Enoch reports.
Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, buthe that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus spoke from Enoch about Himself being the One to whom the sum of all judgment is given, by the Father;
Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Jesus spoke from Enoch about the names of the redeemed being written in heaven -where our inheritance is;
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
And so did the author of Hebrews;
Hbr 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Enoch [Chapter 104]
1 I swear unto you, that in heaven the angels remember you for good before the glory of the Great 2 One: and your names are written before the glory of the Great One. Be hopeful; for aforetime ye were put to shame through ill and affliction; but now ye shall shine as the lights of heaven, 3 ye shall shine and ye shall be seen, and the portals of heaven shall be opened to you. ...

Enoch chapter 25
And this oath is mighty over them
And through it [they are preserved and] their paths are preserved,
And their course is not destroyed.
26 And there was great joy amongst them,
And they blessed and glorified and extolled
Because the name of that Son of Man had been revealed unto them.
27 And he sat on the throne of his glory,
And the sum of judgement was given unto the Son of Man,

Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:


Enoch chapter 25 And he caused the sinners to pass away and be destroyed from off the face of the earth,
And those who have led the world astray.
28 With chains shall they be bound,
And in their assemblage-place of destruction shall they be imprisoned,
And all their works vanish from the face of the earth.
29 And from henceforth there shall be nothing corruptible;
For that Son of Man has appeared,
And has seated himself on the throne of his glory,
And all evil shall pass away before his face,
And the word of that Son of Man shall go forth
And be strong before the Lord of Spirits.

Theres lots of such things in Enoch and Jasher which are treated equally as "Scripture" in the NT.

 

[Assyrian]

Where is your complete list of "canon" accepted by "a great many" "before Jerusalem fell"?

As you well know we only have lists from after.

No, we have the DSS and we know what Jesus and the Apostles read and quoted from and what the early believers called Scripture -including Enoch. Jesus and Paul used Jasher and Enoch, as the author of Hebrews did [and probably Paul wrote Hebrews -else Apollos did, who was mighty in all the Scriptures]

Goodness the goalposts are shifting so fast they are a blur. Are you looking for a complete written list of the canon from Jesus time, or are we working out their canon from statements people made? Because I was pointing to Jesus' summary of the prophets God sent, from Abel to Zechariah as spanning the same form of scriptural canon from Genesis to Chronicles we find in Jewish writings after the fall of Jerusalem. You then demand a written canon from Jesus time, and when I say there isn't one, you say I am wrong and go back to working out the canon from what people at the time said.

Please remember that the "Rabbis who gave [?] you the list you follow [do you?] had already rejected Jesus Christ as the Messiah, and they had no Light and their seers and prophets remained "hidden";
Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

Just because they rejected Jesus doesn't mean they rejected the oracles of God which God had entrusted to them Rom 3:2. If they could not see what the scriptures said, why would they fell a need to exclude these scriptures from their canon? How could these Rabbis continue to see themselves as guardians of God's word if the rejected the books they and their forefathers knew were God's inspired word? It doesn't make sense.

You need to realise people can quote book they think a good book, or has something worthwhile to say even if they don't believe the book is scripture. Paul quoted Greek Poets. Just because Qumran had a wide range of books in their library, it doesn't mean they thought all the books were scripture.

And the Septuagint that the Apostles read and quoted from included all the apocrypha which you do not accept -right?

No sorry, the codexes of the Septuagint which contain the apocrypha date from about the 4th century. The Septuagint was originally just the Pentateuch, with other books of the Tanack translated later. It was only later when the books of the bible were combined into a single volume that we have the deuterocanonical books (ie 'the second canon', aka the apocrypha) being bound together in a single book along with the first canon of Law, Prophets and Psalms. We have no evidence Jesus the apostles or any Jewish rabbis ever considered the apocrypha scripture.

The problem with your statement and belief [which you keep repeating, with no foundational reason for it] is that there is no place in Genesis where Abel is called a prophet. Nor is there any prophecy which Abel gave, written in the OT, anywhere.
So Jesus is not calling Genesis the "first record" when He speaks of the "blood of all the prophets...from Abel.." required in "this generation".

...

Abel's prophecy is in Jasher chapter 1. Abel is a prophet because of what he prophesied, which is recorded in Jasher, chapter 1; So Jesus is referring to Jasher on that statement of Abel being a prophet and Jesus gives authority to Jasher, as a true record and to Enoch as true Scripture.

The Jews recognised a lot of OT characters as prophets who were not necessarily called prophet in the OT or had a specific prophecy recorded. They called the whole of the OT the Law and the Prophets. The Prophets includes books like Judges, Chronicles, Psalms and Proverbs as well as book we would think of as The Prophets like Amos or Isaiah. Jewish tradition did not need a spurious prophecy in the book of Jasher to recognise Abel as a prophet and Jesus did not need Jasher to call Abel a prophet either. Besides I have given you plenty of reasons to regard Abel as a prophet without the book of Jasher. The book of Hebrews says Abel's faith is still speaking.

There is in Jasher the place where Abel does give the prophecy about YHWH avenging his blood if Cain killed him. Cain killed Him, and his blood was "demanded back" in the 70th generation after Enoch, as is written in a fragment of Noah in Enoch. I pasted that in a former post, from Enoch, about the Day of Atonement, as given in the parables of Enoch.

You like to give long quotations from Enoch, but you don't tell us what the prophecy about the seventy generations says.

...Esdras that says there were " 24 books of the OT and 70 hidden books" Where is the list of the hidden books?
-Are they these; Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered...

If you want to know what the 'hidden' books are The Greek for hidden is Apocrypha.

Of course. Will you read Acts 10, so that I don't have to paste it?
See how the LORD dealt so powerfully with Peter about his deep beliefs against going with the Gentiles? Act 10:28 Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

That is not written anywhere in the Torah -no where- but it is written in the Book of Jubilees, which was considered Scripture by many Jews, including the Ethiopian Jews who converted to Christ and to the Jews in the Qumran community, who held Jubilees as Scripture. It is believed that John the Baptist was with the Essenes in the wilderness, before He came "preparing the Way of the LORD".
Now Jubilees does not agree with Genesis and Jasher and Enoch, but maybe there is a core truth in it which has become greatly corrupted; but nevertheless, Peter believed Jubilees as the Word of YHWH, in that matter.

You seem to think if a particular detail isn't found in that exact form in the OT but is in Enoch or Jubilees, then the Jews must have got it from Enoch or Jubilees which they read rightly or wrongly as canonical inspired scripture. Yet Jesus saw a different source for the vast array of rules and regulations, they had grown up as traditions among the Jews, handed down from rabbis and scribes of generations long past, the traditions of the elders. Peter didn't quote Jubilees did he? And it is easy to see how such a tradition could grow up among kosher Jews trying to avoid contamination from the idolatrous nations around them. Interestingly, Peter does not use the normal term for what is or isn't lawful, ie according to the law of Moses exesti, but uses a much rarer term, athemios, which meant abominable, or against law or custom.

Assyrian,
I also want to point out that Peter's vision presented the "unclean" nations represented to Peter in the totemic manner that is straight out of 1 Enoch, in the parable of the dream visions, which is "wisdom of God".
So because the nations were represented to Peter in the vision, three times, in the manner which only Enoch wrote of them in the dream visions, then Peter certainly understood when the three Gentile men who asked for him were "clean", and that he must obey and "go with them, doubting nothing".

Acts 10:10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

Jubilees 22:
16 And do thou, my son Jacob, remember my words,
And observe the commandments of Abraham, thy father:
Separate thyself from the nations,
And eat not with them:
And do not according to their works,
And become not their associate;
For their works are unclean,
And all their ways are a Pollution and an abomination and uncleanness.

Act 10:28 Then he said to them,
"You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man
to keep company with or go to one of another nation.
But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
Act 10:16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven....
Act 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
Act 10:20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.

What you don't quote is an reference for the "totemic manner that is straight out of 1 Enoch"
But then again, I would expect NT apocalyptic writing to reflect the apocalyptic traditions of Jewish literature, because that is the symbolic language it is speaking in, even if the NT apocalyptics are inspired scripture and the tradition was based on, even is it grew out of scriptural apocalyptics isn't itself inspired scripture.

Anyway, where is the prophecy about 'this generation' the seventieth generation from Enoch being held responsible for the blood of all the prophets?

There are two different contexts to "this generation" in Jesus' doctrine. One generation is the wicked, as I wrote in a former post, who are all the sons of the devil [they pass away after all things written in Enoch are fulfilled, as Jesus also said, and as David wrote of in Psalm 37].
The blood of all the prophets is "required" -demanded back- in this generation, which "this generation" is Jesus'. That is speaking of the Atonement, in the seventieth generation, when Azazel is given "all sin" and is cast into the lake of fire.
I did write extensively about that doctrine of the Atonement, from Enoch, in a former post.

Again you are not giving anything specific here.

 

[Assyrian]

How can they be "literalists" when they do not believe in the resurrection or in angels nor souls of men?
Mat 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
Act 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit [souls]: but the Pharisees confess both.

It is hard to work out the Sadducee doctrine from a negative statement. According to the Jewish encyclopedia, they were quite literalist in their interpretation of OT laws, like an eye for an eye, while the Pharisees interpreted it more freely as compensation to the value of an eye. It seems inconceivable that anyone accepting the Torah as inspired would categorically reject the existence of angels, but then we don't know how they interpreted these passages. What we can say is they rejected the complicated angelology of the Pharisees. As for the resurrection, is it stated clearly in the literal text of the Pentateuch? Jesus showed it to them in an implication fo the literal text, but they could have read the text for generations, interpreting it literaly all the time, without spotting that one.

All the sars are "archangels" in your version, even all the earthly kings and leaders and judges. You are missing something, that Michael is the "rishown", the chief of the angels who are chiefs [sars].

Did you miss the bit about the sar of eunuchs being translated archieunochos and the sar of the army archistrategos?

You do a good job of looking things up, and it is a lot of work -hours and hours go into looking things up and pasting them and I appreciate your zeal. I hope you enjoy what you do as much as I enjoy what I do. -But what I want you to explain, now, is how Paul and Jude called Michael an archangel, and how in Daniel Michael is called "one/echad" of the "chief" sars if there are no archangels as Enoch wrote of them?

Thanks. It is fun. Sometimes.

Michael is called a sar, prince, in Daniel [FONT=&quot]10:13, 21 and 12:1. This is translated into Greek as archon[/FONT]. Michael is an angelic archon and archon of the angelic hosts of God. Why do you think it is inconconievable that an angelic archon would be called archangel just as an archon of eunuchs was called archieunochos? Even if you think Enoch date back to before the flood, archangel is a Greek term that only appears in Enoch when it was written or translated into Greek. You still had to rely on a hellenistic Jew either writing Enoch from scratch or translating it from Aramaic to take some Hebrew or Aramaic terms like sar describing an angel and render it Archangel. We don't even know if the translator or writer of Enoch was the first to use the term or if it had been used before by Hellenistic Rabbis to describe angelic sars like Michael.

Where did Paul get the foundational doctrine for this statement from, in the "canon"; Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities/arche,
against powers/exousia,
against the rulers/kosmokratōr of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high/epouranios [places]?
I would have thought he learned a lot of his angelology from his Rabbinical training from Gamaliel. Are you saying Enoch talks of kosmokratōrs?

Paul quoted Enoch and Jasher many, many, times also.
Paul quotes from Enoch, here;
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Enoch [Chapter 50]
1 And in those days a change shall take place for the holy and elect,
And the light of days shall abide upon them,
And glory and honour shall turn to the holy,
2 On the day of affliction on which evil shall have been treasured up against the sinners.
And the righteous shall be victorious in the name of the Lord of Spirits:

Paul is certainly not quoting here, and it is not clear what is being treasured up, for Paul it is the wrath of God, in Enoch it is evil, either the evils they will suffer or the evils they have committed, it is not clear from the text. However the idea of God waiting until the full measure of sin is filled up goes way back in scripture. Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Paul quoted from Enoch's dioctrine of the Son of Man in heaven in 1 Cor 7: 7when he said;
but we speak/preach/tell wisdom, God in mystery hidden whom God ordained from eternity unto our Glory.We who are in Christ are now hidden in God with Him, until His revealing to the world, when we shall be revealed in Glory with Him, at His second coming which John tells about -but Enoch wrote of first..

Or Daniel.Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Paul quoted from Jasher, in 2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
Only Jasher names the sons of Ba'alim, magicians who withstood Moses before Pharoah.

Actually they crop up throughout Jewish tradition and are mentioned in the Targums, they had their own apocryphal book The Book of Jannes and Jambres and even got a mention in Pliny.

The author of Hebrews read and used Enoch and Jasher in many places. Here's one, where he used what is written in both Jasher and Enoch, to make one statement about Enoch;
Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him [from Jasher]: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God [from Enoch].

Jesus spoke from Enoch about Himself as the Son of Man who was in heaven, and who is come down from heaven, and who will ascend back to heaven, as Enoch reports.
Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, buthe that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus spoke from Enoch about Himself being the One to whom the sum of all judgment is given, by the Father;
Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Jesus spoke from Enoch about the names of the redeemed being written in heaven -where our inheritance is;
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
And so did the author of Hebrews;
Hbr 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

A lot of claims, but you don't include the quotation from Enoch so we can see what you are talking about.

Of the quotations you do give only one seems to fit the claims you have just made.

Enoch [Chapter 104]
1 I swear unto you, that in heaven the angels remember you for good before the glory of the Great 2 One: and your names are written before the glory of the Great One. Be hopeful; for aforetime ye were put to shame through ill and affliction; but now ye shall shine as the lights of heaven, 3 ye shall shine and ye shall be seen, and the portals of heaven shall be opened to you. ...

Theres lots of such things in Enoch and Jasher which are treated equally as "Scripture" in the NT.

As for our names being written in the book of life...
Exodus 32:32 But now, if you will forgive their sin--but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written."
Psalm 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous.
Isaiah 4:3 And he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone who has been recorded for life in Jerusalem,
Daniel 12:1 At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Goodness the goalposts are shifting so fast they are a blur. Are you looking for a complete written list of the canon from Jesus time, or are we working out their canon from statements people made? Because I was pointing to Jesus' summary of the prophets God sent, from Abel to Zechariah as spanning the same form of scriptural canon from Genesis to Chronicles we find in Jewish writings after the fall of Jerusalem. You then demand a written canon from Jesus time, and when I say there isn't one, you say I am wrong and go back to working out the canon from what people at the time said.

Originally Posted by Assyrian

...But the canon that came to be universally accepted after the fall of Jerusalem did not come out of the blue, it was what a great many accepted as scripture before Jerusalem fell, before Christ's ministry.[/quote]
​

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme

Where is your complete list of "canon" accepted by "a great many" "before Jerusalem fell"?
...

​

As you well know we only have lists from after. But we have no reason to think the Rabbis who gave us these lists plucked them from thin air, rather than compiling the lists of scriptures long acknowledged in the synagogues.

As you can see by the above pastes, I responded to your own claims and I asked you to provide those lists. You claimed the [Christ rejecting] Rabbis gave "us" canon [I am not included in the "us"] compiled from lists of scriptures long acknowledged in the synagigues.

Whose synagogues? Who had concensus on what should be in a "list" of "canon" before Jesus?
I pointed out that Esdras says there were "70 hidden books". Esdras was a Jew. Esdras says there were 70 hidden books.

I pointed out that God hid the prophets and seers -covered them, as He said in Isaiah 29. He did so because of the unbelief of the priesthood which He told of in Isaiah 28.
They -the unbelieving priesthood in Israel- never got their "seeing" eyes back when they rejected Jesus as the Son of Man, who was seen only by Enoch, hidden in heaven and who was God, and who was with God, hidden from the beginning, and who was to come, is come, and is coming again.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

It is hard to work out the Sadducee doctrine from a negative statement. According to the Jewish encyclopedia,

Surely you do not mean that you do you not believe that Luke's accounts are "inspired" Truth?
Luk 20:27 Then came to [him] certain of the Sadducees, which deny that there is any resurrection; and they asked him,

Act 23:6 But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!"
Act 23:7 And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided.
Act 23:8 For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection--and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both.
Act 23:9 Then there arose a loud outcry. And the scribes of the Pharisees' party arose and protested, saying, "We find no evil in this man; but if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, let us not fight against God."http://www.blueletterbible.org/tools/printerFriendly.cfm?b=Act&c=23&t=NKJV&x=9&y=7#_fnt_2