Is the fourth commandment done away with? (Moved)

[RND]

Apollos asked - Now, can anyone show obligation or reason for Christians to keep the sabbath?
RND replies - I don't know. Read the Bible cover to cover a few times?

LOL ! I will take that as a big NO! No one can show any obligation to keep the “sabbath” under the new covenant today. Afterall, what would Christians be “resting” from ??? (cf. Exodus 31:13,17, Deut 5:15.)
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Take it anyway you'd like Apollos. Just as I said before there is no proof in the New Testament saying that there is no reason for the sabbath to be observed. I guess one could look at the situation then as a sabbath version of Pascals Wager.



http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=1&v=2&t=KJV#2

Psa 1:2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.<----
Jesus has ALL authority today in heaven and on earth – Matthew 28:18.
Today this means the “law of Christ” – Galatians 6:2 which is contained in the new covenant – not the old.

Where did Christ change the law?

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=19&v=7&t=KJV#7

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.<-------- See answer above. But does this apply to animal sacrifices??? Does it apply to the closing of the gates???

No. It doesn't apply to animal sacrifices. The word for law here is Torah which is a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch:--law.

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=94&v=12&t=KJV#12

Psa 94:12 Blessed [is] the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;<-------
See answer above.

The word for law here is Torah which is a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch:--law.

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=119&v=174&t=KJV#174

Psa 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law [is] my delight.<--------
Today this MUST mean the “law of Christ” today as there was no salvation under the old law. There is certainly no salvation connected with “sabbath” keeping !!! In fact, if you did not keep the “sabbath”, you got a rock in the head! How “positive” is that?

It must have meant the same thing back then in that the Lord is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

RND offered - And here's the kicker!

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:<--------Does this apply to Christians?

Oh, I can kick this a little farther than you can…

Romans 15:4 - For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that through patience and through comfort of the scriptures we might have hope.

See also 1 Corinthians 10:11 !

RND then said - Tell me and everyone here Apollos1 what "scripture" was Paul referring too when he wrote to Timothy seeing that the "New" Testament hadn't been compilied yet? Was Paul including the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic law here?

Hey “everyone”, in all three of these passages Paul tells us that there are things to learn and profit from and see by example by reading scripture, including the OLD Testament.

What Paul does not say in these verse, and what RND needs to learn, is that not all scripture is authoritative today for the worship and practice of the NEW Testament church. RND needs to decide which COVENANT he wants to accept! THIS is the KICKER !!!

Are you serious Apollos? To say that you'd have to completely ignore the plain meaning of what Paul was saying. What is doctrine? What is correction? What is reproof?

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It doesn't say some scripture is good for these things it says clearly all. Taking it a step further it says, "The ten Commandments [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

RND said - Paul was writing to Timothy roughtly 20 to 30 years after the death of Christ and he was still saying that the scriptures were still good for teaching and instruction. If the "New" covenant started immediately upon Christ's death at Calvary then why was Paul saying 30 years later that the "old" scriptures were still good for something?

As the “executors” of the Christ’s testament, the NT era began on Pentecost in Acts 2 with the Apostles proclaiming the first gospel sermons to men from all around the world. But I never said that the OT had no use today. While your approach is argumentative in nature, there are some good points to be made.

Many things can be learned from OT scripture – and this is Paul’s point. The -3- major things I think we can learn from OT scripture (and it is not limited to only 3 things) is:
-How God deals with man.
-God always keeps His word!
-God has always provided for the faithful.

I agree. But that doesn't mean God changes His nature and His character, which is perfectly expressed in the Ten Commandments. Why is it that the only commandments that Christians attempt to say has been changed, or is no longer in effect is the 4th Commandment?

Hey Apollos, just out of curiosity, in Luke 15 in the parable of the "lost coin" do you find any spiritual meaning in a woman (bride of Christ) losing/misplacing one coin out of nine (Sabbath perchance?) and then being excited beyond belief when she recovers it?

All that happened within the body of the OT does not authorize one practice or one item of teaching for the NT church. Christ was given ALL authority just before He descended into heaven. This is how Paul could say…

If that's the case Jesus never said homosexuality was a sin. Is that true.

Colossians 3:16 - And whatsoever ye do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

So if I rob a bank or have an affair with my neighbors wife as long as I'm doing it to the Lord and giving God the thanks for it then it's OK?

Once again, knowing what you should do today, and knowing which covenant you should observe today as a Christian, is as easy as knowing Who has all authority to make such decisions. And He did not authorize any “sabbath” for His people today in His new covenant!

Nothing in the New Testament says anything about engaging minors for sex. Nothing. And yet there are some sects today that say that this is part of the worship that God wants. Yet is that true? Can a Christian do these things as long as they are consecrating these actions to the Lord?

 

[RND]

this is becoming a silly thread.

Really? In what way?

 

[cyberlizard]

if jesus overturned the sabbath as some are claiming, why would he say about those running to the hills, 'pray it is not in winter or on the sabbath', what's so special about winter?


Steve

 

[Meshavrischika]

What verse is it cyber where the people will realize they have been being taught lies? (something like that)... crud.. being sick is crappy... brain fog.

Anyway... sabbath is not Sunday. BUT Sabbath is also not a prison and keeping it holy should not be one either. The sabbath was made for man, not the other way around. This is a respite time... not a time to fear tresspass. It was about enjoying God and not worrying about the rest of life. Who would not want to do that? Why not do both for that matter? ( Sabbath and Sunday)

 

[Meshavrischika]

O Lord, my Strength and my Stronghold, and my Refuge in the day of affliction, to You shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, emptiness, and futility, worthless things in which there is no profit!

 

[RND]

What verse is it cyber where the people will realize they have been being taught lies? (something like that)... crud.. being sick is crappy... brain fog.

What lies would the people have to worry about being taught? Lies about God's word?

Anyway... sabbath is not Sunday. BUT Sabbath is also not a prison and keeping it holy should not be one either. The sabbath was made for man, not the other way around. This is a respite time... not a time to fear tresspass. It was about enjoying God and not worrying about the rest of life.

All points are correct.

Who would not want to do that?

Satan. Satan will do anything he can to alter God's word.

Why not do both for that matter? ( Sabbath and Sunday)

Can we trust the word of God when God asks us to, "Remember the sabbath day...." Can we diligently seek God's word and find out where He approved the of switching the sabbath to Sunday?

 

[Meshavrischika]

No, because He didn't.

 

[WailingWall]

O Lord, my Strength and my Stronghold, and my Refuge in the day of affliction, to You shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, emptiness, and futility, worthless things in which there is no profit!

Jeremiah 16:19
O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Them new fangled bibles sure do leave out some good stuff. So what are the gentiles doing which is contrary to the written Word. Cant miss it. Its written about all through the old and new testament. I keep seeing people write "the sabbath was made for man". So i dont have to keep it, they say? God made that day of rest for you, said He was Lord over that day...so you now say that day aint good enough, we will keep a different day of rest. One of our own choosing. I dont think thats gonna fly come the Day of the Lord.

 

[Meshavrischika]

depends on what translation. goy doesn't always refer to gentile

 

[Apollos1]

RND –

With replies exceeding 8 pages now, I will attempt to condense to the point wherever possible. I will express disappointment that you offer, on average, about one specific scripture reference PER page. You choose instead to imply things and make vague reference. I must assume that is all you have to support your theory.

RND SAID - - There is a explicit requirement to observe Go'd seventh-day Sabbath however.

Unless you were a physical Jew at Sinai and it was given to you as a “sign that God brought you up out of Egypt, outside of Exodus 31 it doesn’t exist.

RND SAID - - Second, do you understand that we are no longer required to confirm the the covenant with God by…

Unless you were a physical Jew, you were never required to do such.
Israel then, just as Israel is now, was not only made up of the "physical" descendants of Abraham but the "spiritual" descendants as well. LOL ! This is pretty vague and the THIRD time you have failed to really tell me who/what “Israel” is. Do you really know what YOU think “Israel” is. If you do, give appropriate scriptures!

RND SAID - - The "old Covenant" was offered to the Children of Israel, the mixed multitude that came out of Egypt with them, and it was available and open to any sojourner or stranger that wanted to be apart of that covenant.

Get real! The old covenant was made with the nation of Israel – Deut 5:2-5 (cf. Acts 3:25) a verse which you have not can and can not address directly – can you?

The Jews were a chosen people – Deut. 7:6, 14:2 ! And the sabbath was a SIGN for those Jews that came up out of Egypt – Ex. 31:13,17, Deut 5:15. Don’t act like the covenant was offered to the entire world because there were sojourners and others with them when they came out of Egypt. What you are saying is that it meant nothing to be a physical descendant of Abraham and of the 12 tribes. And that the promises to Abraham applied to everyone. But this you must attempt to do to bolster your false notions in regard to the “sabbath” that was never given to you and is null and void today for all people.

RND SAID - - Misapplied? Have you ever considered the "rules" of the "New" Covenant are harder to uphold than the rules of the "old." See Matthew 5, 6 and 7.

Yes – misapplied and short-sighted! This is the old, “Well, if the OT is gone, can we commit all the sins that the OT talks about?” Answer: No! The NT has provisions that condemn all sin before God. You will use anything to sneak a little “OT” through the back door, including a little “sabbath”, huh?

RND SAID - - The "new" covenant doen't say that I can't maRND said -y my sister or my dog like the "old" did. Does that mean I'm free to maRND said -y my sister or my dog?

Lol – maybe you think you can if you live in California.
Your point would be “Therefore we MUST use the OT for SOME things.” – right???
Same mis-applied argument again. See 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21. Pick up on the idea of “uncleaness”, “lasciviousness” and “such like”. Your basic argument is an affront against NT scripture. Your argument is that the NT scripture does not contain “this” or “that”, therefore we need some or part of the OT scripture. I guess you think God left something out of the NT, huh?
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RND SAID - - Righteousness has always been by faith. That doesn't change the law. It doesn't the way faith is viewed.

What you haven’t seen is that righteous by faith was made possible for all because a NEW covenant was cut. That old law/covenant (which included a 7th day sabbath) is no longer offered by God to anyone. Righteousness through a new covenant is.

RND SAID - - Really? Name them. It sounds as if you are trying to "have you cake and eat it to" theology. Throw out the stuff I don't like and accept the things I do.

This statement shows you are not paying attention to what I am saying. You are focused are keeping that “sabbath” day around and can see little else. Just what am I trying to “throw out” ??? Your “sabbath” ???
As for of precepts and commands for Christians today not found in the OLD covenant made with Israel see…
Matthew 5:21, 28, 32, 34, 39, Matthew 28:18-20, Acts 2:38, 2John 9, , Mark 16:16. How many more would you like?

RND SAID - - Do you understand the difference between what "law" was being spoken of?

First, I think you should have answered all of the passages I offered in support of knowing which covenant to follow today. WHY did you not respond to them?

Second, If I understood your vague comment as quoted above, I would say I understand that you attempt to make a distinction within the “law” that the Bible does not make. You separate and partition where the Bible does not. The “law” (often used as a synecdoche for the old covenant) means all that was included with that covenant. But no matter how you split it up, none of it is valid within Christ’s covenant today.

RND SAID - - Do the distinction of inside/outside mean anything at all to you?

One may very well view the Decalogue as the “heart” of the old covenant, but it was very much an inseparable part of that old covenant. That the tablets were kept in the AOC and to say that this has a special meaning when we are under a different covenant today is symbolic nonsense. Aaron’s rod that budded was also in the AOC. What does that mean to you?

RND SAID - - The entire Bible is a metaphor for how those that join themselves to the nation of Israel and it's King (Jesus) are redeemed.

Lol ! What scripture teaches this? Let me repeat what I said last time. Perhaps I will get a sensible answer this time…

Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Christ is also the head of the church – Eph. 1:22, Col. 1:18. But there is not one passage to support your idea that Christians are adopted into the physical tribe of Israel and required to follow the parts and pieces of the Old covenant that you want them to follow today.

Christ came to buy and build His CHURCH! Not to add us to a tribe!

RND SAID - - Salvation is never offered to anyone except the nation of Israel.

Again no scripture is given. The details of your fairy tale are left to the imagination.

RND SAID - - There are just too many verses and cites to name here but suffice to say this. The promised "seed" that was to come through Abraham is Jesus. All that accept that simply promise become "adopted" sons of Abraham. See Romans 4, Ephesians 2 and Galatians 3.

Too many to cite for this point and yet I don’t get even ONE !!! LOL !

Too bad for you NONE of these latter 3 passages tell us that salvation is offered only to physcial “Israel”. None tell us that we become a part of the tribe of physical “Israel”. None of these tell us that we should follow the select peices you want out of the old covenant given to physical Israel.
Because of the promise to Abraham from God that all nations would be blessed through his seed, BY FAITH in Christ (not by “accepting” that promise) we become SONS OF GOD - Gal. 3:26. By faith in Christ, we are Abraham’s seed, and heirs of the promise – Gal. 3:29, but this is NOT physical linage – it is of PROMISE and the blessing is spiritual! We do NOT join the tribe of Israel. READ what it says! It is one of the few passages you have offered.

Gal 3:28 - There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.
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RND said - And non-Israelites were required to observe it and respect it when sojourning with the Israelites.
Apollos - This is rationalizing.
RND said - Indeed! It's also called using "common sense." It can't be ignored in hope of it going away.

This is all the argument you have to keep your “sabbath” day isn’t it? Christians somehow are made physical “Israelites” today, herded into the tribe, and are therefore required to keep a covenant (or parts & pieces of it as you select) given at Sinai. Common sense??? LOL – yeah right.

RND said - Who said "Jews" of today aren't required to follow the "old" Covenant?

Deity ! Gal 2:28 - There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ.
Matt 17:5 - Hear ye Him !
Eph 2:14-15 - Old covenant abolished – all are one in Christ!
Col 1:20 - All reconciled now through Christ in one body.
Heb 8:6,13 - Christ has mediated a NEW covenant and the old is passing away.
Heb 9:15 - Eternal inheritance made possible through the NEW covenant.

RND SAID - - Glad you finally caught on somewhat. But there is no "spiritual" Israel. It's a real family and a real nation with a real King. The "new" covenant is harder to keep and observe than the "old" and I never agreed that there is no longer a 7th day sabbath, I agreed to "to observe any sabbath of any type."

I think you should have replied to the scriptures I presented instead of being cutesy! Mature participants here at CF realize that scripture speaks more than empty rhetoric?
-There IS a “SPIRITUAL” Israel !! Romans 2:28, 9:3,6, Col. 2:11, Gal. 3:7, 6:15, Php 3:3.
-There IS a NEW covenant - Luke 22:20, Romans 11:27, Heb. 7:22 that has NO 7th day sabbath to observe.
To put this into your words, you can not hope that this will go away…
When can we expect a mature reply? Hmmm?

continued below...

 

[Apollos1]

I am hoping you will deal with those SPIRITUAL ISRAEL scriptures this time instead of observing the "passover" again...
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In my last post I was showing you that Jesus DID take away that 7th day Sabbath you worship. I used &#8230;
Hebrews 9:13 &#8211;
&#8220;And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant &#8230;as well as &#8230;
Hebrews 10:9 &#8211;
&#8220;&#8230;then hath he said, Lo, I am come to do thy will. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.&#8221; Your surprising reply was&#8230;
RND SAID - - Neither of these verses give anyone, let alone "born again Christians" permission to steal, commit adultery, worship other god, bear false witness, covet anothers property, use the Lord's name in vain, bow down to graven image or worship another God. Christ didn't die on the cross to give license to sin.

2 points: First, you once again did not reply to the scriptures given by me.

Second, using the same lame mis-applied argument you used above you attempt to say the NEW covenant gives us license to sin !!! You also refuse to address if Christ gave man a NEW covenant (he did!) and if man should follow that NEW covenant today (he should!) instead of the old covenant given to Israel only at Sinai and whether the NEW covenant condemns sins of any form and fashion. When are you going to get on topic here? Once we decide WHICH covenant to live by, we will know how to live before God.
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Apollos said - The FIRST is gone &#8211; the SECOND has been established! Jesus was Lord of the &#8220;sabbath&#8221; while it was around, but the Lord chose to change things for followers of the NEW covenant.

RND SAID - - I'd love to see one verse, just one, from the Gospels that confirms that there is no more sabbath. Just one.
What ??? Hebrews 10:9 was not good enough for you??? Oh, now you have to &#8220;see it&#8221; from the Gospels! LOL! Because you are a worshipper of the &#8220;Sabbath&#8221; I know you will not accept the truth, but I will prove it from the Gospels for you!

Matthew 5:17 &#8220;Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18: &#8220;For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them, These are my words which I spake unto you,
while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written
in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me.

1.) Jesus said He came to fulfill the law and the prophets in verse 17.
2.) In verse 18 Jesus said the Law would stand &#8211; until He fullfilled ALL.
3.) Jesus said He had fullfilled ALL.
Conclusion: Thus, with all things having been fulfilled the Law and the prophets were ready to pass away.
Hebrews 10:9 &#8211; &#8220;&#8230; He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.&#8221;
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RND SAID - - It [Psa 119:174]must have meant the same thing back then in that the Lord is the same yesterday, today and tomoRND said -ow.

You have taken this scriptural reference out of CONTEXT (do you know what the scripture is?). The CHARACTER of God remains the same. God has chosen to deal with man in different ways throughout history. You refuse to accept the manner in which God wants to deal with man today through a NEW covenant because that NEW covenant does not have the precious 7th day &#8220;sabbath&#8221; you so desperately want to cling to.

2 Tim. 3:16 - All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for coRND said -ection, for instruction in righteousness&#8230;

RND says - It doesn't say some scripture is good for these things it says clearly all.

You are loosing all reason in a desperate attempt to keep you precious &#8220;sabbath&#8221; day. Let&#8217;s make YOUR application to another verse or two and see if your application of 2Tim 3:16 continues to make sense&#8230;

John 11:35 &#8211; Jesus wept.

Tell me, it this scripture good for doctrine or reproof? Maybe correction? Or this&#8230;

Matthew 27:5 - &#8230;and [Judas] went away and hanged himself.

Tell me RND, is this verse good for &#8220;instruction is righteousness&#8221;?? Hmmmm???

The point is &#8211; not all scripture is good for all things. And 2Timothy 3:16 doesn&#8217;t teach the nonsense you attempt to make it say as quoted above. So when we look again at Romans 15:4 and 1 Cor. 10:11 we can know that ALL scriptures are good for something, but not good for all things. God gave us what He wanted us to know!
So &#8211; you do not get to &#8220;coat tail&#8221; that &#8220;sabbath&#8221; of yours onto 2 Tim 3:16.


RND SAID - - I agree. But that doesn't mean God changes His nature and His character, which is perfectly expressed in the Ten Commandments. Why is it that the only commandments that Christians attempt to say has been changed, or is no longer in effect is the 4th Commandment?

I fail to see HOW God is &#8220;perfectly expressed&#8221; in something that is called a &#8220;yoke of bondage&#8221; by some via inspiration. I insist that God is &#8220;perfectly expressed&#8221; in a SON that came in the very image of God to save man from their sins. Now THAT is a &#8220;perfect&#8221; expression.

That &#8220;sabbath&#8221; day given to Israel as a SIGN between God and them BECAUSE they had no rest in Egypt found no place within the NEW covenant Christ mediated. I mean &#8211; WHAT do Christians have to REST from ??? Lol! But sin is still sin before God and the NEW covenant includes provisions (as given above) for man not to sin and in fact, become the spiritual person God wants him to be!

RND SAID - - Hey Apollos, just out of curiosity, in Luke 15 in the parable of the "lost coin" do you find any spiritual meaning in a woman (bride of Christ) losing/misplacing one coin out of nine (Sabbath perchance?) and then being excited beyond belief when she recovers it?

No I don&#8217;t. Sounds like some hefty &#8220;sermonizng&#8221; to me&#8230;

Apollos said - All that happened within the body of the OT does not authorize one practice or one item of teaching for the NT church. Christ was given ALL authority just before He descended into heaven. This is how Paul could say&#8230; Colossians 3:16.

RND SAID - - If that's the case Jesus never said homosexuality was a sin. Is that true.

Through the Apostle Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, by inspiration &#8211;
Romans 1:26-28. RND, have you ever read this? Have you read any of the NEW testament. Have you ever gotten past Exodus 31? OR is it that you do not understand the concept of &#8220;authority&#8221; ?

Apollos offered - Colossians 3:16 - And whatsoever ye do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
RND SAID - - So if I rob a bank or have an affair with my neighbors wife as long as I'm doing it to the Lord and giving God the thanks for it then it's OK?

I see, you have NO concept of authority. Doing something &#8220;in the name&#8221; of or by the authority of Jesus Christ means that Jesus AUTHORIZED the practice or teaching first. It does not mean you do something and then say it was in His name &#8211; it just doesn&#8217;t work that way in the Bible.

Once again, you have things &#8220;sdrawkcab&#8221;&#8230; no surprise there. Let me know if you find a valid argument to observe your precious 7th day &#8220;sabbath&#8221; today.

 

[cyberlizard]

if jesus overturned the sabbath as some are claiming, why would he say about those running to the hills, 'pray it is not in winter or on the sabbath', what's so special about winter?


Steve

Please can someone tell me what is so special about winter?


Steve

 

[Apollos1]

Here in Matthew 24, in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus gives a list of things that the Jews should hope for.

Any of these things on the list would slow down/hinder one's flight from the city, including the cooler or cold weather of winter, and no crops/plants on which to forage - not optimal "travel" time for any of them.

Verse 20 - "neither on a sabbath..."The gates of the city of Jerusalem were closed on the sabbath and would prohibit anyone from leaving, including any Christians that may be dwelling there when the destruction came. Travel was prohibited on the sabbath as well as there would be those Jews still observing this ordinance.

Jesus was telling them to pray for optimal conditions under which to flee.

 

[cyberlizard]

Here in Matthew 24, in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus gives a list of things that the Jews should hope for.

Any of these things on the list would slow down/hinder one's flight from the city, including the cooler or cold weather of winter, and no crops/plants on which to forage - not optimal "travel" time for any of them.

Verse 20 - "neither on a sabbath..."The gates of the city of Jerusalem were closed on the sabbath and would prohibit anyone from leaving, including any Christians that may be dwelling there when the destruction came. Travel was prohibited on the sabbath as well as there would be those Jews still observing this ordinance.

Jesus was telling them to pray for optimal conditions under which to flee.

do you have a source text showing the gates were closed on shabbat?


thanks

Steve

 

[heymikey80]

Anyway... sabbath is not Sunday. BUT Sabbath is also not a prison and keeping it holy should not be one either. The sabbath was made for man, not the other way around. This is a respite time... not a time to fear tresspass. It was about enjoying God and not worrying about the rest of life. Who would not want to do that? Why not do both for that matter? ( Sabbath and Sunday)

Exactly! In fact, I'm going to what Scripture actually does say about designating another day! Why not do as God redesignated it, changing the Sabbath away from the seventh day ... to ... today ...

For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works." And again in this passage he said,

"They shall not enter my rest."Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

"Today, if you hear his voice,do not harden your hearts."
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there is left a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God&#8217;s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. Heb 4:4-10

​

 

[WailingWall]

Exactly! In fact, I'm going to what Scripture actually does say about designating another day! Why not do as God redesignated it, changing the Sabbath away from the seventh day ... to ... today ...

For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works." And again in this passage he said,

"They shall not enter my rest."Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

"Today, if you hear his voice,do not harden your hearts."

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there is left a Sabbath restfor the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. Heb 4:4-10
​

Lets look at Hebrews 3 to find out what Hebrews 4 is talking about

HEBREWS 3 [12]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. [13] But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14] For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; [15] While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. [16] For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came OUT OF EGYPT by Moses. [17] But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, WHOSE CARCASES FELL IN THE WILDERNESS? [18] And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? [19] So we see that THEY COULD NOT ENTER IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

(out of Egypt - into the wilderness –destoyed them that believe not)

So, how do you deny God and Jesus according to this new testament scripture,and walk in the spirit of unbelief. Who are these people and why were they killed in the wilderness? The answer would be very important, as this passage from the NEW TESTAMENT tells us NOT to do as they did and walk with an evil heart of unbelief.

EZEK.20 [10] Wherefore I caused them to go forth OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT, and brought them INTO THE WILDERNESS. [11] And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.[12] Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.[13] But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and MY SABBATHS THEY GREATLY POLLUTED: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them IN THE WILDERNESS, TO CONSUME THEM.

(out of Egypt - into the wilderness - polluted HIS SABBATHS - destroyed them)

When we go back to the old testament to see exactly what the new testament is talkin about we find that Hebrews 3 is speaking of those who did not keep the sabbath and how the Lord was to destroy them in the wilderness because of unbelief. So the scripture in Hebrews 3 is telling us, as believers we must keep the sabbath, and not to walk with an evil heart of unbelief. Should we follow the scriptures? Will following the doctrines of churchiology and the pulpiteers get us to the kingdom? My money is on the scriptures.

DEUT.5[15] And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

(remember - out of Egypt - Keep the Sabbath)

HEBREWS 4 [1] Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.[2] FOR UNTO US WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED, AS WELL AS UNTO THEM: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.[3] For WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST,

There ya have it. The same gospel preach to us as to them. Those who believe that gospel keep Gods sabbath day. Those with the spirit of unbelief do not.



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[WailingWall]

Now lets look at Hebrews 4 in light of Hebrews 3

[1] Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.[2] For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.[3] FOR WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Don’t come up short. Have faith in the WORD. Enter into Gods rest. His sabbath day.

[4] For he spake in a certain place of THE SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY from all his works.[5] And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Yup, the 7th day. That’s Gods sabbath day alright.

[6] Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:[7] Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Some, to whom it was first preached had the spirit of unbelief and did not enter the sabbath rest (Ezek.20). They were destroyed. Do you hear his voice today Mikey? Right now. Don’t harden your heart as they did.

[8] For IF JESUS HAD GIVEN THEM REST, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.[9] THERE REMAINETH THEREFORE A REST to the people of God.

You’ve heard the many say “Jesus is my rest”. Well…verse 8 contradicts that? Anyways the rest (sabbath) remains. Ive heard “the many” say verse 9 is speaking of the 1000 yr period of rest. That rest has not yet arrived, so how could it remain? Oh well. Another thing that bothers me is the fact that many of the new translations have changed the name of Jesus to Joshua. Why? What are they trying to hide? Verse 8 does not say he spoke of another day. It says IF...What it says. YIKES

[10] For HE THAT IS ENTERED INTO HIS REST, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS.
[11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Of course the above verses are speaking of the sabbath. Enter into the rest as God also did. Verse 4 says God entered into rest on the seventh day. The sabbath. Verse 11 says we are to enter into that very same rest.

Ive seen pages and pages written about above scriptures trying to explain that it doesnt really mean what it says. Just believe what it says and enter into the rest GOD created for us. The rest that sanctifys us and sets believers apart from those with the spirit of unbelief, like those who were destroyed in the wilderness (Ezek.20). Don’t harden your heart.

 

[WailingWall]

do you have a source text showing the gates were closed on shabbat?
thanks
Steve

Neh. 13:17-19
Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said unto them, What evil thing is this that ye do, and profane the sabbath day? [18] Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath. [19] And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day.

Not really sure this is what you were asking about

 

[cyberlizard]

Neh. 13:17-19
Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said unto them, What evil thing is this that ye do, and profane the sabbath day? [18] Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath. [19] And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day.

Not really sure this is what you were asking about

Apollos claimed the city gates were closed on sabbath, but gave no proof for his/her assertion. I am trying to find out what evidence they have that this was the case around the time of the destruction of the temple when the Romans, not the Jewish leaders were in charge.


Steve

 

[visionary]

It is still closed in some parts of Jerusalem today on the sabbath... so thw Jews still follow that command when they can..