-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Is the fourth commandment done away with? (Moved)
- Thread starter k4c
- Start date
RND
Senior Veteran
- Jul 20, 2006
- 7,807
- 145
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Hey, even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then. The fact of the matter is that this atheist philosopher was right, your bit on a dead person intervening for others is unbiblical and without scriptural foundation.
Upvote
0
RND
Senior Veteran
- Jul 20, 2006
- 7,807
- 145
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
I believe your the one who began to take the thread of topic and in no way have you been insulted or flamed.
Your signature contains the Nicene creed and yet you reach out to dead people to "intercede" for you when then is none to intercede for you other than Jesus Christ.
I am surprised that this board allows you have something in your signature that so blatantly denies the work of Jesus Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary.
Upvote
0
katholikos
Well-Known Member
- Aug 29, 2008
- 3,631
- 439
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Republican
I have disproved your false Sabbath doctrine. So now you have gone from smearing the pope (what happened to that post by the way) to baiting this poor girl. This is beneath what a Christian should be.
So, I shall repeat the conclusive post which was never refuted:
The commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day was given to Moses: It is from the 4th covenant of the 6 covenants given throughout salvation history, and was for the children of Israel.
The 6th covenant, instituted by Christ, has no such commandment. Interstingly, before Christs covenant was established in His Blood, He left out the commandment to keep holy the Sabbath in this little give and take:
The biblical Covenants are:
Adamic (the covenant God made with Adam),
Noahite (the covenant God made with Noah),
Abrahamic (the covenant God made with Abraham),
Mosaic (the covenant God made with Moses),
Davidic (the covenant God made with David),
and New (the covenant God in the person of Jesus made with the world)
Each successive covenant encompasses a larger and larger group of people: Two, then a family, then on and on up to the whole wolrld. This is Gods plan, from the very beginning, of bringing more and more of the world back into his family. Thats what a covenant is: An entrance into a family.
Each successive covenant has a different sign, such as Noah's rainbow, then on to circumcision, etc.
The Ten Commandments are part of the Fourth Covenant, with Moses: We are not bound by that covenant. We are bound by Christs commands, and Saturday Sabbath keeping isnt one of them. Show me where Jesus said to keep the Sabbath, then we'll talk.
.
Upvote
0
katholikos
Well-Known Member
- Aug 29, 2008
- 3,631
- 439
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Republican
Oh, and while we're at it, we'll take a little peek at pre-Constatine history. The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.
The Didache
"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
The Letter of Barnabas
"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).
Ignatius of Antioch
"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).
"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).
Tertullian
"[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God" (An Answer to the Jews 2 [A.D. 203]).
The Didascalia
"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]).
Origen
"Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection" (Commentary on John 2:28 [A.D. 229]).
Victorinus
"The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished" (The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).
Eusebius of Caesarea
"They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things" (Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 312]).
"[T]he day of his [Christ’s] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord’s day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality" (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).
The Didache
"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
The Letter of Barnabas
"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).
Ignatius of Antioch
"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).
"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology 67 [A.D. 155]).
Tertullian
"[L]et him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day . . . teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath or practiced circumcision, and were thus rendered ‘friends of God.’ For if circumcision purges a man, since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did he not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? . . . Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering him sacrifices, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, was by him [God] commended [Gen. 4:1–7, Heb. 11:4]. . . . Noah also, uncircumcised—yes, and unobservant of the Sabbath—God freed from the deluge. For Enoch too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and unobservant of the Sabbath, he translated from this world, who did not first taste death in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God" (An Answer to the Jews 2 [A.D. 203]).
The Didascalia
"The apostles further appointed: On the first day of the week let there be service, and the reading of the holy scriptures, and the oblation [sacrifice of the Mass], because on the first day of the week [i.e., Sunday] our Lord rose from the place of the dead, and on the first day of the week he arose upon the world, and on the first day of the week he ascended up to heaven, and on the first day of the week he will appear at last with the angels of heaven" (Didascalia 2 [A.D. 225]).
Origen
"Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection" (Commentary on John 2:28 [A.D. 229]).
Victorinus
"The sixth day [Friday] is called parasceve, that is to say, the preparation of the kingdom. . . . On this day also, on account of the passion of the Lord Jesus Christ, we make either a station to God or a fast. On the seventh day he rested from all his works, and blessed it, and sanctified it. On the former day we are accustomed to fast rigorously, that on the Lord’s day we may go forth to our bread with giving of thanks. And let the parasceve become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews . . . which Sabbath he [Christ] in his body abolished" (The Creation of the World [A.D. 300]).
Eusebius of Caesarea
"They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we. They did not avoid certain kinds of food, neither did they regard the other distinctions which Moses first delivered to their posterity to be observed as symbols; nor do Christians of the present day do such things" (Church History 1:4:8 [A.D. 312]).
"[T]he day of his [Christ’s] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord’s day, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality" (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).
Last edited:
Upvote
0
RND
Senior Veteran
- Jul 20, 2006
- 7,807
- 145
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
What does this prove? That the sabbath was not being observed after Christ death? I have news for you. The sabbath was not being observed before Christs death and it is one of the reasons that God sent the Children of Israel into exile. Perhaps you'd like to argue that point as well?
Isa 56:2 Blessed [is] the man [that] doeth this, and the son of man [that] layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.
Murder has been going on before and after the cross. Does that make it right?
Stealing has been going on before and after the cross. Does that make it right?
Lying has been going on before and after the cross. Does that make it right?
Idol worship has been going on before and after the cross. Does that make it right?
Adultery has been going on before and after the cross. Does that make it right?
Coveting has been going on before and after the cross. Does that make it right?
Using the Lord's name in vain has been going on before and after the cross. Does that make it right?
Dishonoring parents has been going on before and after the cross. Does that make it right?
The fallacy of your argument is simple. Assuming something has changed based on the ignoring of God's word doesn't make something right.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
RND
Senior Veteran
- Jul 20, 2006
- 7,807
- 145
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
You might want to find the exact quote from Didache for proper understanding and reference.
[c. 250-300 AD Apostolic Constitutions:] Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence . . . .—bk. 2, sec. 7, lix.
But keep the Sabbath, and the Lord's day festival; because the former is the memorial of the creation, and the latter of the resurrection. But there is one only Sabbath to be observed by you in the whole year, which is that of our Lord's burial, on which men ought to keep a fast, but not a festival.—bk. 7, sec. 2, xxiii.
[c. 250-300 AD Apostolic Constitutions:] We enjoin you to fast every fourth day of the week, and every day of the preparation, and the surplusage of your fast bestow upon the needy; every Sabbath-day excepting one, and every Lord's day, hold your solemn assemblies, and rejoice: for he will be guilty of sin who fasts on the Lord's day, being the day of the resurrection, or during the time of Pentecost, or, in general, who is sad on a festival day to the Lord. For on them we ought to rejoice, and not to mourn.—bk. 5, sec. 3, xx.
[c. 250-300 AD Apostolic Constitutions:] . . . but assemble yourselves together every day, morning and evening, singing psalms and praying in the Lord's house: in the morning saying the sixty-second Psalm, and in the evening the hundred and fortieth, but principally on the Sabbath-day. And on the day of our Lord's resurrection, which is the Lord's day, meet more diligently, sending praise to God that made the universe by Jesus, and sent Him to us, and condescended to let Him suffer, and raised Him from the dead. Otherwise what apology will he make to God who does not assemble on that day to hear the saving word concerning the resurrection . . . ?—bk. 2, sec. 7, lix.
[c. 300-350 AD Apostolic Constitutions:] Let your judicatures be held on the second day of the week, that if any controversy arise about your sentence, having an interval till the Sabbath, you may be able to set the controversy right, and to reduce those to peace who have the contests one with another against the Lord's day.—bk. 2, sec. 6, xlvii.
Not that the Sabbath-day is a day of fasting, being the rest from the creation . . . .—bk. 5, sec. 3, xv.
O Lord Almighty Thou hast created the world by Christ, and hast appointed the Sabbath in memory thereof, because that on that day Thou hast made us rest from our works, for the meditation upon Thy laws.—bk. 7, sec. 2, xxxvi.
On this account He permitted men every Sabbath to rest, that so no one might be willing to send one word out of his mouth in anger on the day of the Sabbath. For the Sabbath is the ceasing of the creation, the completion of the world, the inquiry after laws, and the grateful praise to God for the blessings He has bestowed upon men. All which the Lord's day excels . . . .—bk. 7, sec. 2, xxxvi.
Let the slaves work five days; but on the Sabbath-day and the Lord's day let them have leisure to go to church for instruction in piety. We have said that the Sabbath is on account of the creation, and the Lord's day of the resurrection.—bk. 8, sec. 4, xxxiii.
64. If any one of the clergy be found to fast on the Lord's day, or on the Sabbath-day, excepting one only, let him be deprived; but if he be one of the laity, let him be suspended.—bk. 8, Eccl. Canons.
Upvote
0
katholikos
Well-Known Member
- Aug 29, 2008
- 3,631
- 439
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Republican
I just caught that untrue statement. Get the facts straight. The Catholic Church did not "change the sabbath from saturday to sunday." The Catechism specifically says that "Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week." Now, you said that you have read the Catechism, which means you read that line, which means you have purposely made a false statement. Why do you feel the need to make false statements to support you your false doctrine? Oh, I guess I just answered my own question.
CCC 2175 - Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ
Catechism Of The Catholic Church:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a3.htm
Upvote
0
katholikos
Well-Known Member
- Aug 29, 2008
- 3,631
- 439
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Republican
Why do you keep quoting the Old Testament? HELOOOOO!! Join the rest of us in the NEW Testament. You argue that the Lord observed the Sabbath and we should imitate Christ in this. This reasoning, however, fails to consider that our Lord was still under the old covenant when he observed the Sabbath. Indeed, Christ perfectly observed the Sabbath as he did all of the old covenant. However, after he enunciated a new covenant at the Last Supper, his emphasis is on Sundays. Sunday was the day he was found to have been resurrected, and his first two appearance to the twelve disciples were on the following two Sundays (Jn. 20:19, 20:26). Again, five weeks later—on Sunday—the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles.
In Syria, following the death of the last apostle, a guide for the teaching of Christians was written called the "Doctrine of the Apostles," or the Didache. Its use was reported by church historians but the document itself was lost for centuries. It was found around 1900 in a manuscript dating back to the year 1000. The Didache taught: "On the Lord’s own day, gather together and break bread." This is a clear reference invoking Christians to worship on Sunday written around the year 100.
In the year 110—only twelve years after the death of the last apostle—Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, calls the Sabbath "antiquated." The full passage of the letter of Ignatius to the Magnesians, reads: "Do not be led astray by other doctrines nor by old fables which are worthless. For if we have been living by now according to Judaism, we must confess that we have not received grace. The prophets . . . who walked in ancient customs came to a new hope, no longer Sabbatizing but living by the Lord’s day, on which we came to life through Him and through His death."
There is widespread belief among Christian scholars that the institution of Sunday worship occurred in the apostolic or post-apostolic age in commemoration of the Resurrection. The New Testament itself never calls Sunday the day of the Resurrection but consistently "the first day of the week." Moreover, nowhere does the New Testament suggest that the Lord’s Supper was celebrated in commemoration of Christ’s Resurrection. Neither do the earliest post-apostolic writings invoke the Resurrection as a reason for Sunday worship.
The Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 130–135) is the first explicit mention of Lord’s day worship being based on the Resurrection. Barnabas writes: "Finally He [God] says to them: ‘I cannot bear your new moons and Sabbaths.’ You see what he means: It is not the present Sabbaths that are acceptable to me, but the one that I have made; on that Sabbath day, which is the beginning of another world. This is why we spend the eighth day in celebration, the day on which Jesus both arose from the dead and, after appearing again, ascended into heaven."
In the year 135 Jerusalem was sacked and the Roman emperor Hadrian prohibited Sabbath worship throughout the Roman Empire. Hadrian also prohibited anyone of Jewish descent from living in Jerusalem. A new Christian community was recruited for Jerusalem from other nations, and the bishops of Jerusalem until the mid–third century bore Greek and Roman names. Thus, after 135, even the Jerusalem Church worshiped on Sundays. Hadrian’s prohibition against Sabbath worship spelled the end of the Sabbath-or-Sunday problem for the early Church. Another council was not necessary.
Justin Martyr confirmed the non-issue of Sunday worship in 150, writing: "On Sunday, we meet to celebrate the Lord’s supper and read the Gospels and Sacred Scripture, the first day on which God changed darkness, and made the world, and on which Christ rose from the dead." It is worth pointing out that the unity of intent in the writings of the apostolic fathers speaks to the worldwide acceptance of Sunday worship between 100–150.
Upvote
0
RND
Senior Veteran
- Jul 20, 2006
- 7,807
- 145
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Again, been there done that.
The fact of the matter is that the RCC has a catechism for the laity and one for the initiates. It's as simple as that. Whatever your catechism from Rome says there is a different version somewhere else.
[SIZE=+2]WHO CHANGED THE[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]SABBATH SATURDAY TO SUNDAY?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]
[/SIZE]
Roman Catholic:No such law in the Bible "Nowhere in the bible do we find that Jesus or the apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is, the Seventh day of the week, Saturday. Today, all Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the [Roman] church outside the Bible." [SIZE=-1]Catholic Virginian, Oct. 3, 1947[/SIZE]
"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctified." [SIZE=-1]James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 ed.), pp.72,73[/SIZE]
"If protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day, that is Saturday. In keeping Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church." [SIZE=-1]Albert Smith, chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the cardinal in a letter of Feb. 10, 1920.[/SIZE]
"Have you not any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?"
"Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her, she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the Seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority" [SIZE=-1]Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed. p. 174[/SIZE]
How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays?
By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church." [SIZE=-1]Henry Tuberville, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine (1833 approbation), p.58 (Same statement in Manual of Christian Doctrine, ed. by Daniel Ferris [1916 ed.], p.67)[/SIZE]
"The Catholic Church,... by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.
[SIZE=-1]" The Catholic Mirror, official organ of Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.[/SIZE]
"Is Saturday the 7th day according to the Bible and the 10 Commandments?"
"I answer yes".
"Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the 7th day, Saturday, for Sunday, the 1st day?"
"I answer yes".
"Did Christ change the day?"
[SIZE=-1]"I answer no!" Faithfully yours, "J. Cardinal Gibbons" Gibbons' autograph letter.[/SIZE]
Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the NEW LAW, that he himself has explicitly substituted Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as holy days. The church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days."
[SIZE=-1]John Laux A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies 1936, vol.1 p.51[/SIZE]
Which is the Sabbath day?
Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemity from Saturday to Sunday."
[SIZE=-1]Peter Geiermann, The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1946 ed.), p.50. Geiermann received the "apostolic blessing" of Pope Pius X on his labors, January 25, 1910.[/SIZE]
"The Catholic Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant, claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh Day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant. [SIZE=-1]The Catholic Universe Bulletin, Aug. 14, 1942, p.4[/SIZE]
"The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] church." [SIZE=-1]Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today (1868), p. 213[/SIZE]
Exodus 20: 8-11,
(8) Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (9) Six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work: (10) But the Seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: (11) For in six days the Lord made the heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the Seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Colossians 2:8 warns us to:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
What power has claimed authority to change God's law?
The Papacy in Rome.
"The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even Divine Laws...The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth.[SIZE=-1]" Translated from Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca (Ready Library), "Papa", art. 2.[/SIZE]
What part of the law of God has the papacy thought to change?
The Fourth Gommandment.
"Catholics alledge the change of the Sabbath into the Lord's day, contrary, as it seemeth, to the Decalogue; and they have no example more in their mouth than the change of the Sabbath. They will needs have to be very great, because it hath dispensed with a precept of the Decalogue.[SIZE=-1]" The Augsburg Confession (Lutheran), part 2, art. 7, in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Harper), vol. 3, p. 64.[/SIZE]
"It [the Roman Catholic Church] reversed the Fourth Commandment by doing away with the Sabbath of God's word and instituting Sunday as a holiday." [SIZE=-1]N. Summerbell, History of the Christian Church (1873), p. 415.[/SIZE]
Does the papacy acknowledge changing the Sabbath?
It does.
The Catechismus Romanus was commanded by the Council of Trent and published by the Vatican Press, by order of Pope Pius V, in 1566. This catechism for priests says: "It pleased the church of God, that the religious celebration of the Sabbath day should be transferred to 'the Lord's day. Sunday.'"[SIZE=-1] Catechism of the Council of Trent (Donovan's translation, 1867), part 3, chap. 4, p. 345. The same in slightly different wording, is in the McHugh and Callan translation (1937 ed.), p. 402.[/SIZE]
Do Catholic authorities acknowledge that there is no command in the bible for santification of Sunday?
They do.
"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." [SIZE=-1]James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 ed.), pp. 72,73[/SIZE].
How did Sunday observance originate?
As a voluntary celebration of the Resurrection, a custom without pretense of Divine authority.
Matthew 28:1 KJV States clearly that Christ Rose on the Sabbath Saturday!! IN the END of the Sabbath, as it began to Dawn TOWARD the FIRST day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher. Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is RISEN, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
Who first enjoined Sunday keeping by law?
Constantine the Great.
"The earliest recognition of the observance of Sunday as a legal duty is a constitution of Constantine in 321 A.D., enacting that all courts of justice, inhabitants of towns, and workshops were to be at rest on Sunday (venerabili die solis), with an exception in favor of those engaged in agricultural labor.[SIZE=-1]" Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th ed., art. "Sunday".[/SIZE]
By what church council was the observance of the seventh day forbidden and Sunday observance enjoined?
The Council of Laodicea, in Asia Minor, fourth century.
What kind of worship does the Saviour call that which is not according to God's commandments?
"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men." [SIZE=-1]Matt. 15:9[/SIZE]
Last edited:
Upvote
0
katholikos
Well-Known Member
- Aug 29, 2008
- 3,631
- 439
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Republican
That is not a fact. In fact, that is a blatant falsehood. You keep quoting little magazine articles that are not official doctrine. And you have compiled a hodgepodge of Encyclopedia articles which are irellevant, plus quotes of quotes of quotes in books that cannot be referrenced, plus the odd errent statement by a bishop or priest here and there. All of which adds up to squat.
I skimmed through that pile of nonsense and could refute every quote if I wanted to. But since you have demostrated the propensity to make vile attacks (which the staff has apparently deleted - mighty Christian of you there), and demostrated the willingness to make untrue statements, not to mention insulting that poor sweet girl Philiothei, I feel no need to demostrate the facts to someone who is not interested in the facts.
I might add that, for all you cut-and-pastes and smears, you never once demonstrated that Saturday Sabbath keeping was commanded by Christ as part of His New Covenant, nor did you produce one NT scripture to support your false doctrine. All your kind knows how to do is attack and misrepresent as a last ditch effort when you have lost a debate based on Scripture alone
Good day to you sir.
.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
RND
Senior Veteran
- Jul 20, 2006
- 7,807
- 145
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Really? Then if this isn't something that's endorsed by the Catholic church why do they sell the book:
The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine
Complete Description: A 1930 edition. Clear, concise, hardhitting. An eye-opening review for all Catholics and a steady guide for converts. First-rate in our opinion. The "Profession of Faith for the Reception of a Convert" is alone worth the price.
Well, if you take a close look at the board they also removed some of your posts as well that I didn't report.
Look, all the references I posted are actual statements from Catholics that state that they changed the sabbath. Are you saying that all these Catholics that assert this are wrong? What would be their motivation for making such claims that are contrary to "official" dogma?
One of the reasons you won't demonstrate any facts to me is that the facts have already been laid out for you.
Why would any Catholic, especially a cardinal, make statements about the sabbath so contradictory to what you say is official dogma? Truth maybe?
Hey, Shabat Shalom!
Upvote
0
RND
Senior Veteran
- Jul 20, 2006
- 7,807
- 145
- Faith
- SDA
- Marital Status
- Married
Why was it necessary for the catholic church to change the order of the 10 Commandments?
PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
PART THREELIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
Upvote
0
Philothei
Love never fails
The Sabbath is a Holy Day that can be Sunday .... we keep the spirit of the Law not the letter... We still keep one day which is Holy and that is Sunday. How do we violate a law if it is still the same concept?
since you keep all the laws of the Old Testament then do you also
keep the kosher law? do you keep all the laws? Because if you do not then you cannot talk.... No cherry picking here either... you keep all the law or you do not at all... You blamed us for not doing so.. and we said that our religion allows us for that as Paul did say it does not matter....
since you keep all the laws of the Old Testament then do you also
keep the kosher law? do you keep all the laws? Because if you do not then you cannot talk.... No cherry picking here either... you keep all the law or you do not at all... You blamed us for not doing so.. and we said that our religion allows us for that as Paul did say it does not matter....
Upvote
0
Gerhard Ebersoehn
Junior Member
GE:
The Jews also keep the Commandments; especially the Fourth Commandmant. You think they love Christ?
Upvote
0
Gerhard Ebersoehn
Junior Member
"PhilotheiThe Sabbath is a Holy Day that can be Sunday .... we keep the spirit of the Law not the letter... We still keep one day which is Holy and that is Sunday. How do we violate a law if it is still the same concept? "
GE:
I do not like helping people; it's against my bad, sinful nature. But you seem so confused, dear Philothei, I feel obliged to offer a little assitance.
"The Sabbath is a Holy Day", that is, 'set apart', "the Seventh Day"; yet you maintain it "can be Sunday"
".... we keep the spirit of the Law not the letter...", so why not the 'letter' if the 'letter' reveals the 'spirit' of the law? How would you know or any one else, for that matter, what the 'spirit of the Law' is, if the Law would not show you?
"We still keep one day which is Holy and that is Sunday." All I would like to see is how you would recognise this 'holy', that is, 'set apart' day? By the fact it is "one day"? Why, that would un-'holy' it; make it common!
"How do we violate a law if it is still the same concept"? Well, you tell me, How do we violate a law if it is NOT still the same concept? Today this, tomorrow that, whenever, whichever. Is that 'Law'?
MY Law is Jesus Christ the Law-Word of God, "yesterday (Old Testament) today and tomorrow (New Testament) THE SAME!
Therefore, for me, the Law of God was nailed to cross, but from the dead ROSE to reign forever! Ex.15:18.
GE:
I do not like helping people; it's against my bad, sinful nature. But you seem so confused, dear Philothei, I feel obliged to offer a little assitance.
"The Sabbath is a Holy Day", that is, 'set apart', "the Seventh Day"; yet you maintain it "can be Sunday"
".... we keep the spirit of the Law not the letter...", so why not the 'letter' if the 'letter' reveals the 'spirit' of the law? How would you know or any one else, for that matter, what the 'spirit of the Law' is, if the Law would not show you?
"We still keep one day which is Holy and that is Sunday." All I would like to see is how you would recognise this 'holy', that is, 'set apart' day? By the fact it is "one day"? Why, that would un-'holy' it; make it common!
"How do we violate a law if it is still the same concept"? Well, you tell me, How do we violate a law if it is NOT still the same concept? Today this, tomorrow that, whenever, whichever. Is that 'Law'?
MY Law is Jesus Christ the Law-Word of God, "yesterday (Old Testament) today and tomorrow (New Testament) THE SAME!
Therefore, for me, the Law of God was nailed to cross, but from the dead ROSE to reign forever! Ex.15:18.
Upvote
0
Gerhard Ebersoehn
Junior Member
RND:
"I am surprised that this board allows you have something in your signature that so blatantly denies the work of Jesus Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary."
GE:
Haai,
Did you know, Jesus Christ IS, 'The Heavenly Sanctuary'? Did you know, "His NAME, IS, HOLY OF THE HOLIES"?
I would love to hear from you!
"I am surprised that this board allows you have something in your signature that so blatantly denies the work of Jesus Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary."
GE:
Haai,
Did you know, Jesus Christ IS, 'The Heavenly Sanctuary'? Did you know, "His NAME, IS, HOLY OF THE HOLIES"?
I would love to hear from you!
Upvote
0
Similar threads
