Luke 21:24 shows it is future

[zeke37]

Luke21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


mistakenly I had referenced mat24:24 in other threads, lol...so I started this thread to correctly identify the time spoken of....

surely the gentiles are still troddening down Jerusalem today....what stands on the Holy site???

so a fulfillment in app. 70AD is impossible, but should serve as a type...


comments?

 

[Big Mouth Nana]

mistakenly I had referenced mat24:24 in other threads, lol...so I started this thread to correctly identify the time spoken of....

surely the gentiles are still troddening down Jerusalem today....what stands on the Holy site???

Right now there is a Muslim Mosque sitting on the Holy site.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Luke21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


mistakenly I had referenced mat24:24 in other threads, lol...so I started this thread to correctly identify the time spoken of....

surely the gentiles are still troddening down Jerusalem today....what stands on the Holy site???

so a fulfillment in app. 70AD is impossible, but should serve as a type...


comments?

Jerusalem has been trodden down of the gentiles since 70AD. Therefore, Jerusalem will be trodden down until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. It began in 70AD and continues to this day.

THAT's another reason why the "tribulation" that Jesus described in those passages is nearly 2000 years long so far!


Hsa 6:2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.



Mic 5:3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.



Rom 11:25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

 

[Nilloc]

mistakenly I had referenced mat24:24 in other threads, lol...so I started this thread to correctly identify the time spoken of....

surely the gentiles are still troddening down Jerusalem today....what stands on the Holy site???

so a fulfillment in app. 70AD is impossible, but should serve as a type...

According to Revelation 11:2, the times of the Gentiles is 42 months (which was the amount of time the first Rome-Jewish war lasted), so the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled in the first century desolation of Jerusalem.

Jerusalem has been trodden down of the gentiles since 70AD.

This is not true. The Jews took back Jerusalem and established a Jewish state there for two and a half years during the Bar Kokhba Revolt in the second century A.D. So the idea that 'times of the Gentiles' represents A.D. 70 to the present fails.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

According to Revelation 11:2, the times of the Gentiles is 42 months (which was the amount of time the first Rome-Jewish war lasted), so the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled in the first century desolation of Jerusalem.


This is not true. The Jews took back Jerusalem and established a Jewish state there for two and a half years during the Bar Kokhba Revolt in the second century A.D. So the idea that 'times of the Gentiles' represents A.D. 70 to the present fails.

Did the Spirit of God return at that time? Look at it as a big picture from God's perspective.

 

[Nilloc]

Did the Spirit of God return at that time?

I'm not sure what Scripture your referering too . . . What passage are you talking about?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I'm not sure what Scripture your referering too . . . What passage are you talking about?

When did the Glory leave the temple? "Jerusalem will be trodden down of the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled." I guess, I equate that to when Christ comes...Ezek 40-48.

Jerusalem will not be secure until Christ comes and secures it:

Zec 14:11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.



So, Jerusalem has been "trodden down of the gentiles" for at least two millennia, right? When did God abandon Israel/Jerusalem? When did the Glory of God leave?

 

[Nilloc]

Jerusalem will not be secure until Christ comes and secures it:

Zec 14:11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

I understand this to be fulfilled in the New Heavenly Jerusalem (Heb. 12:22), not the old earthly Jerusalem.

So, Jerusalem has been "trodden down of the gentiles" for at least two millennia, right?

But Revelation says that the 'times of the Gentiles' are only 42 months.

When did God abandon Israel/Jerusalem? When did the Glory of God leave?

I would say when Jesus declared that the temple would be desolate (Matt. 23:38).

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I understand this to be fulfilled in the New Heavenly Jerusalem (Heb. 12:22), not the old earthly Jerusalem.

Can't be referring to the New Jerusalem because it has never been destroyed. It has to be the earthly Jerusalem.

Zec 14:11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

But Revelation says that the 'times of the Gentiles' are only 42 months.

Hmmm...I suppose you are referring to Rev 11:

Rev 11:1 A reed like a rod was given to me. Someone said, "Rise, and measure God's temple, and the altar, and those who worship in it. Rev 11:2 Leave out the court which is outside of the temple, and don't measure it, for it has been given to the gentiles. They will tread the holy city under foot for forty-two months.

Well, hmmm....this is obviously referring to a future time when the temple is standing, and most likely when the beast is reigning...if I were to guess.
I'll have to do some digging and seeking...

I would say when Jesus declared that the temple would be desolate (Matt. 23:38).

That's as good a guess as any!...and probably correct!

Mat 23:36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Mat 23:38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. (70AD)
Mat 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’

 

[zeke37]

it is today still the time of the gentiles in Jerusalem, for the holyest land is not even occupied by Jews....

 

[Nilloc]

Can't be referring to the New Jerusalem because it has never been destroyed. It has to be the earthly Jerusalem.

Zec 14:11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.

It can also be translated “and there will no longer be a curse”, which sounds like the New Jerusalem (Rev. 22:3).

Well, hmmm....this is obviously referring to a future time when the temple is standing, and most likely when the beast is reigning...if I were to guess.

Do you think it's coincidence that John says that Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles for 42 months and then that's exactly what happened (in the first century)? It never says that it's a rebuilt Temple; it was the one standing when John wrote Revelation.

 

[Nilloc]

it is today still the time of the gentiles in Jerusalem, for the holyest land is not even occupied by Jews....

You still haven't answered why Revelation says that the times of the Gentiles is only 42 months.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

It can also be translated “and there will no longer be a curse”, which sounds like the New Jerusalem (Rev. 22:3).

No, you misunderstand. The curse of Rev 22:3 WAS on the earth. In Rev 22:3, the New Jerusalem, has come down from heaven and is on the earth. The New Jerusalem has never been cursed.

Do you think it's coincidence that John says that Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles for 42 months and then that's exactly what happened (in the first century)? It never says that it's a rebuilt Temple; it was the one standing when John wrote Revelation.

No, I don't think that it's a coincidence. I think there could be a "dual fulfillment".

I thought John wrote Revelation after Jerusalem fell.

You're going to have to help me wrap my brain around what you are saying. I DO see that the events of 70AD appear to have a role in what Jesus said and Luke 21 confirms that. The problem is, why are we still here? It's almost like it described what was coming on Jerusalem AND what is coming on the world (in the future). In other words, there's an immediate context as it applies to Israel and a larger context as it applies to the world.

 

[Nilloc]

Hi Jen.

The New Jerusalem has never been cursed.

That’s not what I meant. The passage just says that there will no longer be a curse--not that Jerusalem (whether the old or New) was itself cursed.

No, I don't think that it's a coincidence. I think there could be a "dual fulfillment".

There could be a dual fulfillment; I just see no reason to think there is.

I thought John wrote Revelation after Jerusalem fell.

No, he wrote it about A.D. 64-68.

You're going to have to help me wrap my brain around what you are saying.

Perfectly understandable. The Preterist position can be very difficult.

I DO see that the events of 70AD appear to have a roll in what Jesus said and Luke 21 confirms that.

So you do believe Luke 21:27 was fulfilled in A.D. 70, a passage that is often looked at as the Second Coming by most Futurists?

The problem is, why are we still here?

Not sure what you mean . . .

It's almost like it described what was coming on Jerusalem AND what is coming on the world (in the future). In other words, there's an immediate context as it applies to Israel and a larger context as it applies to the world.

Since I take a Postmillennial interpretation of Revelation 20, I actually kinda agree.

 

[zeke37]

You still haven't answered why Revelation says that the times of the Gentiles is only 42 months.

Hi there, here is one of many reasons...

Rev11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

imo, this is during that final hour of temptation, not 70 AD. IMO this does not refer to an actual physical temple, but to the body of Christ...we are the temple....

those who are worshiping the true God are in the temple...

those who are apostate and worship the fake Jesus who comes first to deceive the world, are outside....see Ez44 for further details.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

possible Moses and Elijah.(as the two olive trees)..standing before God....and the two unchastized churches in Rev2-3 are the candlesticks...

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

the two olive trees must be killed physically, and then 3 1/2 days later, Christ Comes.

I see this beast as the same beast just told to us in Rev9 and to come in Rev13...

it is an end of the age prophesy, not a 70 AD prophesy...for at it's conclusion, Christ returns.

you see, we are the temple, and it is in our minds that Satan will try to fool you into believing that he is the returned Christ, when he is cast out of heaven to earth for a short season to deceive us all if it be possible.

the 42 months is not speaking of the entire length of time that the gentiles are in Jerusalem, but the entire length of time that the unclean people are allowed to be a part of that temple...these gentile represent apostate Christians who are taken in the flood of lies and in that time, worship the supernatural fallen angel Satan as he is disguised as Christ returned....

worship him and you are in that outer region....defiled

in His service
c

 

[Nilloc]

Hi there

Hi zeke.

Hi there, here is one of many reasons...

Rev11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

imo, this is during that final hour of temptation, not 70 AD. IMO this does not refer to an actual physical temple, but to the body of Christ...we are the temple....

those who are worshiping the true God are in the temple...

those who are apostate and worship the fake Jesus who comes first to deceive the world, are outside....see Ez44 for further details.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

possible Moses and Elijah.(as the two olive trees)..standing before God....and the two unchastized churches in Rev2-3 are the candlesticks...

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

the two olive trees must be killed physically, and then 3 1/2 days later, Christ Comes.

I see this beast as the same beast just told to us in Rev9 and to come in Rev13...

it is an end of the age prophesy, not a 70 AD prophesy...for at it's conclusion, Christ returns.

I'm not a Futurist, so I do believe most of Revelation was talking about A.D. 70. The events of Revelation were to soon take place.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated {it} by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Rev 1:2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, {even} to all that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

and the two unchastized churches in Rev2-3 are the candlesticks...

I agree and that's why Revelation 11 was fulfilled in the first century and was the literal Temple then standing. Those were first century Churches that no longer exist.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,

 

[zeke37]

the churches serve as a type for us today....

does your church teach what Smyrna and Philadelphia teach....

the ten day tribulation (IMO) is right at the very last 10 days before Messiah returns...still future of course...


again this leads to a future time not a past time...


and there is no way that what happened with the old temple, is the worst thing/time ever in existance....so there are many reasons why I wait for a future fulfillment.

 

[Nilloc]

Hi zeke.

the churches serve as a type for us today....

Sure, we can learn by their example, but Revelation was a message primarily for the first century Christians—written to those seven specific Churches.

the ten day tribulation (IMO) is right at the very last 10 days before Messiah returns

Prove it. Jesus says: “you will have tribulation for ten days” not “Christians two-thousand years from now will have tribulation for ten days.”

and there is no way that what happened with the old temple, is the worst thing/time ever in existance....so there are many reasons why I wait for a future fulfillment.

We can’t read ancient apocalyptic literature through twenty-first century eyes; we have to use the Old Testament to interpret Revelation. Read Psalm 18, it’s full of that kind of imagery that no one would take literally. The Psalm’s preface says: “For the choir director. A Psalm of David the servant of the LORD, who spoke to the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies and from the hand of Saul.” The Psalm is describing a historic event, yet uses apocalyptic imagery.

We have to read Revelation in the same way by comparing Scripture with Scripture and understanding it’s original context, not using our twenty-first century glasses.

 

[zeke37]

Hi zeke.

Sure, we can learn by their example, but Revelation was a message primarily for the first century Christians—written to those seven specific Churches.

I disagree, John was taken to the Lord's Day (Rev1 and 4)and sees things just before and during and after...

Prove it. Jesus says: “you will have tribulation for ten days” not “Christians two-thousand years from now will have tribulation for ten days.”

relax...I am a "you" if I am elect, because I am in that generation that will see these things come to pass...pretty specific to say 10 days is it not?...unless it was indeed the last 10 days...'tis the witness/trial of the elect....

the entire book speaks of a future fulfillment.

We can’t read ancient apocalyptic literature through twenty-first century eyes; we have to use the Old Testament to interpret Revelation.

I agree....all serve as a type for us in this end generation, to which the fulfillment happens...

Read Psalm 18, it’s full of that kind of imagery that no one would take literally. The Psalm’s preface says: “For the choir director.

actually that is the subscription of the previous psalm...that the translaters got wrong...every one of the prescriptions and subscriptions are given to the wrong Psalm...that is actually the subscription for Psalm 17, a pattern that is easy to see if you are looking...They were to sing that Psalm in general assmenbly even...

A Psalm of David the servant of the LORD, who spoke to the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies and from the hand of Saul.” The Psalm is describing a historic event, yet uses apocalyptic imagery.

sure....many of the Psalms are prophesy and some are not....even if using actual histpric events to teach them...as in Psalm 22 forshadowing Christ's death on the cross...propbably the very last message that Christ spoke before His death was this Psalm.

We have to read Revelation in the same way by comparing Scripture with Scripture and understanding it’s original context, not using our twenty-first century glasses.

again, I agree....which is why I study the Greek and Hebrew/Aramaic copies of the manuscripts...instead of relying stricktly on the many different doctrinally driven translations...my favorite still being the KJV for its ease of cross referencing...

in His service
c

 

[Notrash]

it is today still the time of the gentiles in Jerusalem, for the holyest land is not even occupied by Jews....

You use the word Gentiles as if it is opposite or different from Jew.
The word is the same word that is translated "nations" in many other places in the N.T. By context it is sometimes referring to non-jew such as when James did not eat with the Gentiles (nations, non-jews) for fear of the judaizers.

But my opinion of this verse about the times of the "gentiles" being fulfilled' refers to until the time of the nations (the Roman army) had finished trodding down Jerusalem. 3 1/2 yrs/ 42 months. It is not referring to a times of gentiles followed by a renewal of jewish habitation. It is talking about how long will "the nations" trodden over Jerusalem. They answer is: untill they (the nations represented by the Roman armies) have finished trodding under foot Jerulsaem. Until the leveling of Jerusalem was complete. As Dan 9:27 refers to it.... until it's consummation. Until it's desolation was complete and flattened.

Again, the question needs to be answered as to when and where in Daniels visions of the 4th beast (the roman kingdom) is it said that after the kingdom of the most high is given to those of every tongue, language, nation, will it be returned to a jewish kingdom. It doesn't, in fact the kindom of Christ begun from Pentecost through the establishment in Pella is said to be forever and ever and everlasting.
Dan 7:13,14, 27.

This same discussion about ethnos being Gentiles as opposed to Jews... or simply the nations of the Roman empire comes into play in Romans 11. Some of the remaining unbelieving jews were set aside and elect by God to be made jealous (rom 10:19) unto salvation by the spiritual filling (NOT FULL NUMBER) that had by then come upon the "nations".
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7243209