True or False?

[ElijahFalling]

Is what God said true or false?

If you believe what God said is false, please explain why you are more qualified to declare the truth than the all-knowing Creator of the universe.

 

[KCKID]

Is what God said true or false?

If you believe what God said is false, please explain why you are more qualified to declare the truth than the all-knowing Creator of the universe.

What do you want, precisely? What is it that God supposedly said or didn't say that you want to debate?

Please bear in mind that the Bible was NOT written by God so we only have the word of MAN that the Bible is God's word. In other words, we have to use the Bible itself to verify the authenticity of the Bible.

 

[ElijahFalling]

God talked to Moses face to face and told him what to write.

The Bible was written down by men, but authored by God.

 

[KCKID]

God talked to Moses face to face and told him what to write.

The Bible was written down by men, but authored by God.

But we are told by MEN (mere mortals) that God inspired/authored the Bible. So, it's the word of MAN that we have to believe and not the word of God per se. If, as you say, God spoke to Moses face to face and told him what to write, then we have to take the word of Moses (not God) for that belief.

Can you not see the dilemma that this presents for some people?

 

[ElijahFalling]

There is no logical reason to believe Moses would lie about talking to God.

 

[KCKID]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." - God.

These words are clinical ...devoid of any love or affection at all. In what context were these words written BY MAN anyway. Christians have the irritating habit of taking one line of an ancient text and applying it to a modern concept ...homosexuality in this case.

What, PRECISELY, is that ONE LINE referring to?

 

[KCKID]

There is no logical reason to believe Moses would lie about talking to God.

It doesn't matter whether or not there's a logical reason involved here or not. You are still expecting us to believe IMPLICITLY that Moses (who none of us knew personally) is actually speaking for God. Do we assume that everyone who has claimed to have seen a UFO or an apparition of a deceased loved one has no logical reason to lie and therefore we believe them? If not, what's the difference with human beings and their claim that God spoke to them? Why would we believe one and not the other?

 

[ElijahFalling]

It doesn't matter whether or not there's a logical reason involved here or not. You are still expecting us to believe IMPLICITLY that Moses (who none of us knew personally) is actually speaking for God. Do we assume that everyone who has claimed to have seen a UFO or an apparition of a deceased loved one has no logical reason to lie and therefore we believe them? If not, what's the difference with human beings and their claim that God spoke to them? Why would we believe one and not the other?

I believe in UFO's and aparitions. And in general I believe in most people who claim to have seen either. Unless it is obvious they are kidding around.

 

[forward_observer]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." - God.

These words are clinical ...devoid of any love or affection at all. In what context were these words written BY MAN anyway. Christians have the irritating habit of taking one line of an ancient text and applying it to a modern concept ...homosexuality in this case.

What, PRECISELY, is that ONE LINE referring to?

Let me guess, you are a homosexual, trying to discredit the bible to justify your beliefs?

 

[KCKID]

I believe in UFO's and aparitions. And in general I believe in most people who claim to have seen either. Unless it is obvious they are kidding around.

No fair. You're making it difficult to debate this issue.

 

[KCKID]

Let me guess, you are a homosexual, trying to discredit the bible to justify your beliefs?

Excuse me??? Does one have to be homosexual to ask someone: "What, PRECISELY, does that scripture mean?"

Whether or not I'm heterosexual or homosexual or a mix of both or neither is irrelevant. Can YOU answer the question?

 

[KCKID]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Once again ...what and who PRECISELY is that text referring to? Names, dates, references, context, etc. would be appreciated . . .

 

[ElijahFalling]

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Once again ...what and who PRECISELY is that text referring to? Names, dates, references, context, etc. would be appreciated . . .

If a man has sex with another man it is an abomination.

 

[Sylvanspirits]

You're assuming the Bible was written by God rather than man.

The poll is fatally flawed.

Throughout history, men have altered the Bible to suit their own needs, as well as creeds and the like. People translate verse based on their own prejudices. That's why it is far better to read the original Hebrew and Greek texts.

The LITERAL translation of the first part of Leviticus 18:22 is "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman" This is very ambigious, and can mean any number of things. It could mean that all homosexual behavion is forbidden. It could mean that men are not to lie with men as they do with women. It could also mean that men are not to lie with men in the bed of a woman. And the word translated as "abomination" can also be described as "ritually unclean."

People translate an unclear verse depending on their personal beliefs. Thus, you get translations ranging from "Do not sleep with a man as it were with a woman, it is forbidden." (Potentially meaning that homosexuality is not forbidden as long as one does not assume the roles of man and women) to "Homosexuality is absolutely forbidden, for it is an enormous sin" (Stretching the meaning to cover all homosexual behavior) to your KJV version, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination."

 

[ElijahFalling]

But the most obvious interpretation and the one that makes the most sense is that it forbids homosexuality. All those other interpretations you listed require more stretching to get there.

Also, that is not the only verse that forbids homosexuality. There is also Leviticus 20:19, which states if a man lies with another man as one lies wiht a woman, they must both be put to death, their blood will be on their own heads. (or something like that).

And did you forget that God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, for a reason? God said that a man leaves his mother and father to go unite with a woman (not a man!) and they will become one flesh.

There are also verses in the New Testiment that condemn homosexuality.

 

[KCKID]

If a man has sex with another man it is an abomination.

Yes, I realize that YOU have been led to believe that this is what the scripture means. But, WHO was doing WHAT to WHOM for the matter to have become an issue in the first place? We're not given an inkling as to what specific event or practice this scripture is addressing. Y'see, for me anyway, a piece of scripture from here and a piece of scripture from there is a rather pointless exercise. I require facts. Something has first to be validated AS an issue before it BECOMES an issue. With the text you gave - one of the favorite 'clobber' passages, I might add - NO specific issue has been established. It just says what it says and so we really have no idea WHY it says what it says.

You with me?

 

[KCKID]

But the most obvious interpretation and the one that makes the most sense is that it forbids homosexuality.

It only makes the most sense because you've been conditioned to believe that since day one.

All those other interpretations you listed require more stretching to get there.

But you and your teachers are basically taking an obscure line from the Bible and making a doctrine from it.

Also, that is not the only verse that forbids homosexuality. There is also Leviticus 20:19, which states if a man lies with another man as one lies wiht a woman, they must both be put to death, their blood will be on their own heads. (or something like that).

We're also told that those who profane the Sabbath (7th-day) are to be stoned to death as are disobedient children. There are many more. Where do we draw the line? When does logic and common sense kick in?

And did you forget that God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve,

Oooh ... that's a good one. Never heard that one before . . .

for a reason?

Let me guess ...to procreate? If that's the only reason that 'sex' was given then we're all doomed. Besides that, I think we've been more than successful in procreating. We don't have enough resources available to sustain the amount of people on earth that we currently have. That's why hundreds are dying on a daily basis. Is THIS something that God planned or was He just remiss?

God said that a man leaves his mother and father to go unite with a woman (not a man!) and they will become one flesh.

So, are all of the single people on earth doomed because they are disobedient to this command? Are you single? If so, why?

There are also verses in the New Testiment that condemn homosexuality.

No, there are not. Check out the original manuscripts (even the KJV) and you will not see the term 'homosexual' at all. It simply isn't there. Sodomy is the word that 'homosexual' replaced so that totally eliminates lesbians from this perceved 'sexual taboo', doesn't it? One's sexual orientation as in 'homosexual' does NOT equate to sodomy. Other sexual acts, i.e. fondling, carressing, (I won't elaborate any further) etc. are not referred to at all in the Bible. Just sodomy. And, sodomy, of course, is not merely a homosexual issue.

Makes this 'issue' a rather 'non-issue' doesn't it?

 

[David Brider]

If a man has sex with another man it is an abomination.

What makes you think that it's referring to sex? Read the verse again. Also, read the dozen or so verses preceding it.

 

[David Brider]

But the most obvious interpretation and the one that makes the most sense is that it forbids homosexuality.

Do you know what homosexuality is? Because assuming that that verse forbids homosexuality is an assumption that makes little sense.

 

[HaloHope]

Unless God took out a big holy pen and physically wrote the Bible, he didnt write it. Im sure he influenced it, but the Bible itself was written by fallible humans capable of sin just like the rest of us. The poll is flawed because God didnt write that verse, Moses did.. and since Moses did its also been translated by many many other people with their own agendas into many, many different languages in many different cultural and political climates.

The poll is flawed as theres absolutely no evidence God said what he said, and even if he did theres still much there to analyse and discuss. Besides when two gay men are sexually intimate im fairly sure, "lying with a man as one would with a women" is physically impossible (if its indeed refferencing same-sex encounters).