Predestination and Election

[nobdysfool]

Quoted by NBF:
No, yourself, Ben. MamaZ is correct.​

She is "correc", only because she supports "RT". The fact remains that Jesus chose all twelve and ordained that they would bear fruit which remains.

Quote:
Yes, indeed. Your problem is that you think that there was only one fruit. ​

Yes, that's true. Those who Jesus "ordains to bear fruit" --- how many kinds of fruit can they bear?

Can they bear SINFUL fruit???

QUote:
His sin was prophesied, therefore it was pre-ordained.​

The English definition of "ordained", is "decree/establish/enact". The GREEK in Jn15 ("tithemi") is "set-forth, establish, ordain".

Did Jesus DECIDE Judas would sin?

Quote:
Prophecy deals with certainty, not chance. It was prophesied that Jesus would be betrayed. So it is clear that this sin was ordained to happen, prophesied to happen, and Jesus chose Judas, knowing that it was Judas who would betray Him. Jesus did not choose Judas "in the hope" that Judas would not betray Him.​

Can you explain the difference between "ordain", and "foretell"?

When Jesus said "I chose all twelve, and ONE is a devil", was He not answering Peter's promise NOT to leave? Please explain how Jesus was not saying "ANY of you COULD leave".

Quote:
It was a deliberate choice, made with full knowledge of what would certainly happen, with full knowledge of that certainty. ​

Why would Jesus choose a non-repentant reprobate as a Disciple?

Do you think He does that today? Does He "ordain men's sin", or was Judas just a special case?

Quote:
So the answer to #2 is an unequivocal "YES"​

Jesus came to DESTROY sin. In Jesus there is no sin. Please explain then how Jesus could ORDAIN/PREDESTINE sin.

How is that not a contradiction?

Quote:
Given the answer to # 2, NO. Judas was chosen to bear BAD FRUIT, which remained.​

How do you accommodate 1Jn3:5?

Quote:
Can you deny that Judas played an integral part in the events leading up to the Crucifixion? Can you deny that the Crucifixion was fore-ordained to happen, given all the prophecy in the OT about it? Was the crucifixion predestined? Scripture says "YES".​

I recognize that Judas was forekown. I recognize that Jesus was put in a time and place where He would be crucified. But I recognize that God chose NO sin of ANY man.

Quote:
In reality, this has nothing to do with Judas directly. But, the answer to the question is, while there was the potentiality of the other eleven leaving, the actuality was that they didn't, and Jesus knew they wouldn't. He asked them the question, not because He didn't know, or needed to know, but to elicit from them an affirmation of faith in Him. ​

Just like He prayed to the Father that PETER'S faith not fail? "100% effective means" is not what Jesus said; in answering Peter, Jesus was clearly saying, "Yes, you could".

What about the OTHER DISCIPLES that left? Were they "UNSAVED DISCIPLES"? And in Acts20:30, are THEY "unsaved disciples being drawn away from where they never WERE"? When will you begin to see the contradictions?

Quote:
Your canned answers show just how close-minded you are, and how much you refuse to see. Your questions are slanted and do not correctly state the problem.​

With sincere respect --- I would much rather be accused of "close-mindedness" and "blindness", than to suggest that my Lord Jesus caused/ordained sin.

Quote:
Reformed Theology answers it just fine, Ben, The problem here is that you refuse to accept any answer that does not agree with your already-decided-on outcome, which is flawed. You ask, nay demand, answers to questions that you have no intention of ever considering those answers as anything other than fodder for you to shoot at. You refuse to be corrected about anything. You refuse to accept that you could have missed the Truth on anything. This is amply demonstrated by the record of posts and interactions with you going back literally years, and can be confirmed by any number of other posters here. ​

And more's the pity --- that your understanding of Jesus is that He could, and did ordain ANY sin, EVER.

He did not, He could not.

"Jesus came to DESTROY sin; in Him there is no sin." Never would He ordain it. Not in all eternity.

Quote:
Bottom line, it is your theology that leaves questions unanswered, or answers them wrongly.
​

"Wrongly" --- just because they conflict "Reformed Theology". But you just embraced a Christ who ordains sin.

There is a universe of difference between "foreknew", and "ordained".

Ben, your answers are so twisted and so full of double-speak, it is pointless to try and untangle that mess. My post to you was direct, simple, and biblical. Sorry you can't handle it. Your view is ridiculous, convoluted, and wrong.

I stand by my words.

I see that you have, in essence, denied that the Crucifixion of Christ was fore-ordained. That is in direct opposition to scripture, and you need to repent of your false statements denying it.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by NBF:
Ben, your answers are so twisted and so full of double-speak, it is pointless to try and untangle that mess. My post to you was direct, simple, and biblical. Sorry you can't handle it. Your view is ridiculous, convoluted, and wrong.

I stand by my words. ​

In other words, you cannot answer.

Quote:
I see that you have, in essence, denied that the Crucifixion of Christ was fore-ordained. That is in direct opposition to scripture, and you need to repent of your false statements denying it.​

Don't twist what I said.

JESUS was ordained, and foreknown (1Pet1:20-21).
His crucifixion was decreed --- and He was placed when and where He would be crucified.
Men decided by themselves to crucify Christ.

God decided NOTHING of any man crucifying Christ.

 

[MamaZ]

She is "correc", only because she supports "RT". The fact remains that Jesus chose all twelve and ordained that they would bear fruit which remains

Actually the fruit of Judas being a devil does remain. For Christ has died once and Rose once and now He sits at the right hand side of His Father.

Yes, that's true. Those who Jesus "ordains to bear fruit" --- how many kinds of fruit can they bear?

Can they bear SINFUL fruit???

If that is why they were chosen. Why because he was chosen to fulfill scripture. That he did and that fruit remains because now Christ has risen and sits and the righthand side of the Father.. Forever interceding for His sheep. For men are only the clay. God is indeed the potter so man cannot say why did you form me this way.

The English definition of "ordained", is "decree/establish/enact". The GREEK in Jn15 ("tithemi") is "set-forth, establish, ordain".

Did Jesus DECIDE Judas would sin?

Did God decide to harden pharoahs heart?
Pro 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.

Why would Jesus choose a non-repentant reprobate as a Disciple?

to fulfill scripture

Do you think He does that today? Does He "ordain men's sin", or was Judas just a special case?

well we do still have the event of the anti-Christ

 

[moonbeam]

Did God decide to harden pharoahs heart?
Pro 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. to fulfill scripture

Nice one MamaZ....Ex 4:21 has mr johnson scrambling...be prepared for a torrent of BS....thats all mr johnson has to offer.

 

[moonbeam]

I see that you have, in essence, denied that the Crucifixion of Christ was fore-ordained. That is in direct opposition to scripture, and you need to repent of your false statements denying it.

Amen bro....mr johnson is in complete denial of the Truth presented in scripture on that issue.

 

[nobdysfool]

Quoted by NBF:
Ben, your answers are so twisted and so full of double-speak, it is pointless to try and untangle that mess. My post to you was direct, simple, and biblical. Sorry you can't handle it. Your view is ridiculous, convoluted, and wrong.

I stand by my words. ​

In other words, you cannot answer.

I have answered, but you cannot receive it. Hence all the twisting and turning, and trying to put me on the defensive. You have been answered, and any further claim that you have not been answered will be called what it is: a lie.

An answer is not an answer only if Ben receives it, but not an answer if Ben doesn't receive it. That's the paradigm you have been using for years here. I'm calling you out on it right now.

Quote:
I see that you have, in essence, denied that the Crucifixion of Christ was fore-ordained. That is in direct opposition to scripture, and you need to repent of your false statements denying it.​

Don't twist what I said.

JESUS was ordained, and foreknown (1Pet1:20-21).
His crucifixion was decreed --- and He was placed when and where He would be crucified.
Men decided by themselves to crucify Christ.

God decided NOTHING of any man crucifying Christ.

I didn't twist what you said. You denied that the Crucifixion was fore-ordained, when scripture plainly states:

Act 2:23 ESV this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Act 2:23 KJV Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 2:23 NASB this {Man,} delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put {Him} to death.

A determinate counsel, a definite plan, are clearly synonymous with fore-ordination. It was God the Father's Will that Jesus the Son be crucified. Do you deny this? By what manner of logic can you then say that God didn't plan or decree Jesus' Crucifixion, when scripture declares that it was by the determinate, definite plan of God that this happen?

The men who did it, did exactly as God had fore-ordained that they do, as witnessed by the myriad prophecies that detail aspects of the Crucifixion, Psalm 22 being a great example. ANYTHING that is prophesied in scripture was and is fore-ordained, down to the smallest detail. Your denial of this clear fact does not negate its Truth.

Ben, you are denying plain scripture, and for you, who prides himself on quoting more scriptures than anyone to "prove" your theology, this is an egregious failure on your part.

Ben, you are in serious error here, and need to repent. This transcends any disagreements about the mechanics and order of salvation. This is error regarding God Himself.

 

[beloved57]

Quoted by NBF:
Ben, your answers are so twisted and so full of double-speak, it is pointless to try and untangle that mess.

You got that right..

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Actually the fruit of Judas being a devil does remain. For Christ has died once and Rose once and now He sits at the right hand side of His Father. ​

So Jesus --- who came to DESTROY sin, OPPOSES sin and in Whom there IS no sin --- wanted/ordained at least ONE to be sinful. How do I convince you of such a foundational violation?

Quote:
If that is why they were chosen.​

How can God (either the Father, or the Son) --- chose someone to be sinful?

How does that work? Have you any Scripture on that???

QUote:
Why because he was chosen to fulfill scripture.​

See what you think of this idea --- suppose that all twelve were chosen honestly, as believers; but God, existing outside of time, foresaw that ONE would disbelieve and SIN. Jesus COULD have declined to choose Judas (knowing that he would FALL) --- but went ahead and chose him in SPITE of knowing he WOULD fall (to fulfill prophecy --- prophecy being "fore-telling what WILL happen", not "causing stuff TO happen").

This idea fits perfectly with Jn6:67-70, which really seems to have Jesus holding Judas out as the ANSWER to Peter ("Lord, we could never leave You the Messiah!") --- Jesus saying, "Yes, you CAN".

The reality, is that many disciples DID leave (Jn6:60). And disciples CAN be deceived (Acts20:30)

Quote
Did God decide to harden pharoah's heart? ​

God hardened Pharaoh's heart (Ex10:1); and Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart! Ex9:34! The two concepts are equivalent. It is a "literary device", does NOT establish that "God caused sin".

Quote:
Pro 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil. ​

I would love to discuss the context of this with you; including concepts like "God weighs men's motives" (2), "BY men's reverence men keep away from evil" (6), "WHEN a man's ways are pleasing to the Lord (THEN) He makes even his enemies be at peace" (7), "blessed is he WHO trusts in the Lord" (20), etcetera....

Quoted by Ben:
Do you think He does that today? Does He "ordain men's sin", or was Judas just a special case?
Quoted by MamaZ:
well we do still have the event of the anti-Christ ​

God does not ordain sin; nor does He cause it, nor can He do evil.

Ever.

("Moonbeam", does this look like scrambling, or is it calm thorough refutation? Where is the "bologna" [substituting a less offensive term for what you said]?)

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by NBF:
I have answered, but you cannot receive it. Hence all the twisting and turning, and trying to put me on the defensive. You have been answered, and any further claim that you have not been answered will be called what it is: a lie.

An answer is not an answer only if Ben receives it, but not an answer if Ben doesn't receive it. That's the paradigm you have been using for years here. I'm calling you out on it right now.​

And your answer is that "Jesus ordains/causes SIN".

Quote:
I didn't twist what you said. You denied that the Crucifixion was fore-ordained,​

Did not --- Jesus was predestined, to live and to die --- by the hands of lawless men. But those MEN'S LAWLESSNESS was not cause in any way by God...

Quote:
when scripture plainly states:

Act 2:23 ESV this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Act 2:23 KJV Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 2:23 NASB this {Man,} delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put {Him} to death.

A determinate counsel, a definite plan, are clearly synonymous with fore-ordination. It was God the Father's Will that Jesus the Son be crucified. Do you deny this? By what manner of logic can you then say that God didn't plan or decree Jesus' Crucifixion, when scripture declares that it was by the determinate, definite plan of God that this happen? ​

Straw man. See above...

Quote:
The men who did it, did exactly as God had fore-ordained that they do, as witnessed by the myriad prophecies that detail aspects of the Crucifixion, Psalm 22 being a great example. ANYTHING that is prophesied in scripture was and is fore-ordained, down to the smallest detail. Your denial of this clear fact does not negate its Truth. ​

Their sinfulness was not ordained. Jesus was placed when, and where He WOULD die. They chose.

Quote:
Ben, you are denying plain scripture, and for you, who prides himself on quoting more scriptures than anyone to "prove" your theology, this is an egregious failure on your part.​

Some day you will come to recognize that Jesus is as far away from sin, as Heaven is from Hell. It may not be until Jesus returns; but you will some day see it.

Quote:
Ben, you are in serious error here, and need to repent. This transcends any disagreements about the mechanics and order of salvation. This is error regarding God Himself.​

I agree there is "serious error" --- it is the perception that Jesus ordained any sin, any place, any time.

He did not. Never did, never will.

 

[DeaconDean]

JESUS was ordained, and foreknown (1Pet1:20-21).
His crucifixion was decreed --- and He was placed when and where He would be crucified.
Men decided by themselves to crucify Christ.

God decided NOTHING of any man crucifying Christ.

I'm afraid Ben, that NBF is correct and the evidence is against you.

In Acts 2:23, the word here that you are so vehemently arguing against, means just what we are saying.

The Greek word here "wrismenh" means:

"(a bound; limit) to set bounds, to bound, to restrict, to settle, appoint definitively, to fix determinately, to decree, destine, to constitute, appoint, to characterize with precision, to set forth distinctively, to reslove"

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Publishing, Peabody, Mass., 01962, orizw, p. 297

"wrismenh" 3rd person, singular, he/she/it (Insert any one of the above).

NBF is absolutely correct:

you have, in essence, denied that the Crucifixion of Christ was fore-ordained.

The Greek text shows that Christ was indeed destined, decreed, fixed determinately, appointed, bound, restricted, or plainly, before-determined, to die on the Cross by God.

Should it matter whether it was a group of men who had Christ crucified or a group of women, the result would be the same.

What actually does the work? The hammer driving the nail into the wodd, or the hand that uses the hammer to drive the nail in the wood.

Place on a table a piece of wood, a nail, and a hammer. Now tell the hammer to drive the nail in the wood.

So what actually drives the nail in the wood, the hammer, or the hand using the hammer?

Even Jesus told Pilate that he could not do nothing to Him that God had not appointed. (cf. John 19:11)

Those men were instruments that God used to accomplish His divine plan.

Talk about Strawmen.

If your arguement was a bucket of water, it would leak as bad as a colander.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[MamaZ]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Actually the fruit of Judas being a devil does remain. For Christ has died once and Rose once and now He sits at the right hand side of His Father.
​

So Jesus --- who came to DESTROY sin, OPPOSES sin and in Whom there IS no sin --- wanted/ordained at least ONE to be sinful. How do I convince you of such a foundational violation?

This is where you get confused Ben. For Jesus didn't choose him to be sinful.. He was already sinful. Born and raised in sin from the conception.

Quote:
If that is why they were chosen.
​

How can God (either the Father, or the Son) --- chose someone to be sinful?

How does that work? Have you any Scripture on that???
Once again men is already sinful..

QUote:
Why because he was chosen to fulfill scripture.
​

See what you think of this idea --- suppose that all twelve were chosen honestly, as believers; but God, existing outside of time, foresaw that ONE would disbelieve and SIN. Jesus COULD have declined to choose Judas (knowing that he would FALL) --- but went ahead and chose him in SPITE of knowing he WOULD fall (to fulfill prophecy --- prophecy being "fore-telling what WILL happen", not "causing stuff TO happen").
Scripture being fulfilled is prophecy Ben. Just as God said let there be light and behold there was light. Prophecy of Jesus in the OT were fulfilled Ben. It is predestined by God to happen just as it was Prophecied about. God said and yea He will bring it to pass and use any of His creation to do this for what ever reason He sees fit. He is creator God and we are created.
This idea fits perfectly with Jn6:67-70, which really seems to have Jesus holding Judas out as the ANSWER to Peter ("Lord, we could never leave You the Messiah!") --- Jesus saying, "Yes, you CAN".

The reality, is that many disciples DID leave (Jn6:60). And disciples CAN be deceived (Acts20:30)

Quote
Did God decide to harden pharoah's heart?
​

God hardened Pharaoh's heart (Ex10:1); and Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart! Ex9:34! The two concepts are equivalent. It is a "literary device", does NOT establish that "God caused sin". God uses sinfulf men to bring about His plan. Since He is creator God and Has a plan there is not one man nor one demon in hell nor one angel in heaven that can twart the Plan of God.

Quote:
Pro 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
​

I would love to discuss the context of this with you; including concepts like "God weighs men's motives" (2), "BY men's reverence men keep away from evil" (6), "WHEN a man's ways are pleasing to the Lord (THEN) He makes even his enemies be at peace" (7), "blessed is he WHO trusts in the Lord" (20), etcetera....

Quoted by Ben:
Do you think He does that today? Does He "ordain men's sin", or was Judas just a special case?
Quoted by MamaZ:
well we do still have the event of the anti-Christ
​

God does not ordain sin; nor does He cause it, nor can He do evil.

Ever.

("Moonbeam", does this look like scrambling, or is it calm thorough refutation? Where is the "bologna" [substituting a less offensive term for what you said]?)

Once again Ben. God did not sin. But He will use sinful men to bring about His eternal plan.. God is all sovereign.. He is all mighty. He is Just Holy and a consuming fire.. His Love was shown when He sent Christ to die for the sins of the world.

 

[nobdysfool]

Was the Incarnation fore-ordained? Or did God just wait for Jesus to be born in the right place? Could Jesus have been born to just any couple? Or (gasp!) did God choose His earthly mother, as well?

The Crucifixion was fore-ordained by God, and the events surrounding it were also fore-ordained. It is ludicrous and illogical to think that God would ordain the most important event in all history, and leave the events surrounding it up to random chance. Such an attitude shows an alarming lack of understanding of God and His Ways, and of theology. The protests that have been put forth are humanistic, candy-coated caricatures of the truth. All style, no substance. Nothing but feel-good pablum.

Ben, you are clearly wrong on this issue. You need to change your theology to line up with God's Word, because you have missed it here. This is vitally important. Denying the fore-ordination of the Crucifixion is a denial of core Christian Doctrine. This cannot be overlooked. It's that serious.

 

[Ben johnson]

QUoted by MamaZ:
This is where you get confused Ben. For Jesus didn't choose him to be sinful.. He was already sinful. Born and raised in sin from the conception​

I'm not confused at all --- I agree Jesus didn't choose him to be sinful.

The problem is that all twelve were "chosen/ordained-to-bear-fruit". But one of 'em produced bad fruit. So:
1. Judas was ordained by God to be sinful
2. "All twelve" doesn't mean "all twelve" --- it really meant "only ELEVEN" (Judas wasn't REALLY a disciple)
3. Judas was ordained to produce GOOD fruit, but messed up

These seem to be the only choices, unless you can suggest another. Which one is true?

Quote:
Once again men is already sinful.. ​

But was Judas one of the CHOSEN-TWELVE, or not?

Quote:
Scripture being fulfilled is prophecy Ben. Just as God said let there be light and behold there was light. Prophecy of Jesus in the OT were fulfilled Ben. It is predestined by God to happen just as it was Prophecied about. God said and yea He will bring it to pass and use any of His creation to do this for what ever reason He sees fit. He is creator God and we are created.​

You and I seem to agree that "sinfulness is a man's own choice". Yet --- Judas was "one of the twelve". If Judas wasn't chosen to be sinful, then how was he one of the twelve?

Were only ELEVEN "ordained to bear fruit that remains"? How can anyone dispute "all TWELVE were ordained for good fruit"?

Quote:
God uses sinfulf men to bring about His plan. Since He is Creator God and Has a plan there is not one man nor one demon in hell nor one angel in heaven that can thwart the Plan of God.​

Absolutely agreed --- God uses sinful men to accomplish His plans. But he does not CAUSE the sinful actions of men. I think we agree on that.

God used sinful men to crucify Christ; but they chose that path themselves, He did not cause nor influence their hearts, and they will be judged for their OWN CHOICES.

Quote:
Once again Ben. God did not sin. But He will use sinful men to bring about His eternal plan.. God is all sovereign.. He is all mighty. He is Just Holy and a consuming fire.. His Love was shown when He sent Christ to die for the sins of the world. ​

God is just, and justifier of he who believes; God does not choose WHO WILL believe. God does not CAUSE sin. God does not choose who will DISBELIEVE.

All twelve Disciples were chosen and ordained to bear fruit; one of them messed up.

And the stark truth is that in Jn6:67-70, Jesus was plainly saying "the REST of you CAN leave, just like Judas."

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by NBF:
Was the Incarnation fore-ordained? Or did God just wait for Jesus to be born in the right place? Could Jesus have been born to just any couple? Or (gasp!) did God choose His earthly mother, as well?

The Crucifixion was fore-ordained by God, and the events surrounding it were also fore-ordained. It is ludicrous and illogical to think that God would ordain the most important event in all history, and leave the events surrounding it up to random chance. Such an attitude shows an alarming lack of understanding of God and His Ways, and of theology. The protests that have been put forth are humanistic, candy-coated caricatures of the truth. All style, no substance. Nothing but feel-good pablum.

Ben, you are clearly wrong on this issue. You need to change your theology to line up with God's Word, because you have missed it here. This is vitally important. Denying the fore-ordination of the Crucifixion is a denial of core Christian Doctrine. This cannot be overlooked. It's that serious.​

You're not reading my posts; please re-read #109, and 113 that I just made to "MamaZ".

I have never denied the Incarnation and Crucifixion were ordained, and at the hands of sinful men. But Scripture clearly asserts that God does not CAUSE (ordain) men's SINS. They chose to kill Him just because they wanted to.

Looking forward to your responses on #109 and #113.

 

[beloved57]

But he does not CAUSE the sinful actions of men. I think we agree on that.

This is not true, God does cause the sinful actions of men, scripture clearly teaches this..

ps 105:

25He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

 

[Ben johnson]

QUoted by DeaconDean:
I'm afraid Ben, that NBF is correct and the evidence is against you.​

Hi, "Dean". Thank you for your reply.

QUote:
In Acts 2:23, the word here that you are so vehemently arguing against, means just what we are saying.

The Greek word here "wrismenh" means:

"(a bound; limit) to set bounds, to bound, to restrict, to settle, appoint definitively, to fix determinately, to decree, destine, to constitute, appoint, to characterize with precision, to set forth distinctively, to reslove"

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Publishing, Peabody, Mass., 01962, orizw, p. 297

"wrismenh" 3rd person, singular, he/she/it (Insert any one of the above).

NBF is absolutely correct:

you have, in essence, denied that the Crucifixion of Christ was fore-ordained.
The Greek text shows that Christ was indeed destined, decreed, fixed determinately, appointed, bound, restricted, or plainly, before-determined, to die on the Cross by God.​

Jesus was predestined, decreed, sovereignly determined --- to live, die, and live again.

...but He was simply put in a place and time where men WOULD crucify Him. God decided nothing of the hearts of those who did it.

QUote:
Should it matter whether it was a group of men who had Christ crucified or a group of women, the result would be the same.

What actually does the work? The hammer driving the nail into the wodd, or the hand that uses the hammer to drive the nail in the wood.​

Who was controlling that hand? A man --- or God?

QUote:
Place on a table a piece of wood, a nail, and a hammer. Now tell the hammer to drive the nail in the wood.

So what actually drives the nail in the wood, the hammer, or the hand using the hammer?

Even Jesus told Pilate that he could not do nothing to Him that God had not appointed. (cf. John 19:11)​

No, Jesus said "You would have no AUTHORITY if it had not been given you from above."

Never did Jesus say/infer/imply that God causes evil or sin.

Quote:
Those men were instruments that God used to accomplish His divine plan.​

Agreed. Sinful men --- self-focused and rebellious against God --- He used in His predestined plan of grace, "Christ with us".

Quote:
Talk about Strawmen.​

If "strawman" means "arguing against something not said", I never said Jesus' death and resurrection wasn't predestined. I said men freely CHOSE to do that.

Quote:
If your argument was a bucket of water, it would leak as bad as a colander.
​

Hopefully now you see there are no leaks.

If you and I come to agreement on nothing else, I pray that we can agree "God does not sin, does not tempt, CAUSES no sin, ordains no sin. Perfect and infinitely righteous, Jesus HATES sin, came to DESTROY sin, can never ORDAIN sin.

 

[MamaZ]

QUoted by MamaZ:
This is where you get confused Ben. For Jesus didn't choose him to be sinful.. He was already sinful. Born and raised in sin from the conception
​

I'm not confused at all --- I agree Jesus didn't choose him to be sinful.

The problem is that all twelve were "chosen/ordained-to-bear-fruit". But one of 'em produced bad fruit. So:
1. Judas was ordained by God to be sinful
2. "All twelve" doesn't mean "all twelve" --- it really meant "only ELEVEN" (Judas wasn't REALLY a disciple)
3. Judas was ordained to produce GOOD fruit, but messed up
Please Ben show me where the good fruit of Judas was. LOL
These seem to be the only choices, unless you can suggest another. Which one is true?

Quote:
Once again men is already sinful..
​

But was Judas one of the CHOSEN-TWELVE, or not? He was one of the the 12 called. Yes. But He was not one of the chosen for if he had been he would not have been a devil. For many are called but only few are chosen.

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Scripture being fulfilled is prophecy Ben. Just as God said let there be light and behold there was light. Prophecy of Jesus in the OT were fulfilled Ben. It is predestined by God to happen just as it was Prophecied about. God said and yea He will bring it to pass and use any of His creation to do this for what ever reason He sees fit. He is creator God and we are created.
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You and I seem to agree that "sinfulness is a man's own choice". Yet --- Judas was "one of the twelve". If Judas wasn't chosen to be sinful, then how was he one of the twelve? Sin is not a choice Ben. It is a fact. All are born sinners. We don't choose to sin because we are good and can sin. We sin because we are sinners.. Simple fact. We cant choose to be good enough for God because it is not in our nature. We are all born with sin in sin and walk in sin until one is born again and has a new nature within them. Not of the will of man but of the will of the Father.

Were only ELEVEN "ordained to bear fruit that remains"? How can anyone dispute "all TWELVE were ordained for good fruit"? Show me the scripture that says that they were all called to bear Good fruit.

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God uses sinfulf men to bring about His plan. Since He is Creator God and Has a plan there is not one man nor one demon in hell nor one angel in heaven that can thwart the Plan of God.
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Absolutely agreed --- God uses sinful men to accomplish His plans. But he does not CAUSE the sinful actions of men. I think we agree on that.

God used sinful men to crucify Christ; but they chose that path themselves, He did not cause nor influence their hearts, and they will be judged for their OWN CHOICES. LOL One must read the scriptures Ben.. For men don't choose to sin. They sin because they are sinners..

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Once again Ben. God did not sin. But He will use sinful men to bring about His eternal plan.. God is all sovereign.. He is all mighty. He is Just Holy and a consuming fire.. His Love was shown when He sent Christ to die for the sins of the world.
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God is just, and justifier of he who believes; God does not choose WHO WILL believe. God does not CAUSE sin. God does not choose who will DISBELIEVE.
Once again you put God at the mercy of sinful men instead of putting men at the hand of a Holy God.
All twelve Disciples were chosen and ordained to bear fruit; one of them messed up.
Judas bore the fruit that he was called for Ben.
And the stark truth is that in Jn6:67-70, Jesus was plainly saying "the REST of you CAN leave, just like Judas."

So all in all God is the mighty one. Men and women are the feeble ones.. Dead in their tresspasses until God makes them alive in Christ Jesus.

 

[beloved57]

God decided nothing of the hearts of those who did it.

This is again a twisting of scripture to forge a lie..

ps 105:

25He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

and regardless of your corruption of the definitions, this also speaks of God determining the thoughts, and choices of all involved..

acts 4:


26The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

 

[Ben johnson]

GOtta go just now; perhaps later we'll dive into Psalm 105, and see if it's conveying "God CAUSES sin".

 

[MamaZ]

Ben if the God you serve bends His knee to sinful people then the God you serve is Not God of the scriptures.. For the one and only true God bends His knee to no one but all men will bend their knee to Him.