Predestination and Election

[yashualover]

[SIZE=+3]THE ELECTION AND PREDESTINATION[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+3]OF THE BELIEVER[/SIZE]
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Romans 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
Isaiah 64:7 And there is no one who calls on Your name, Who stirs himself up to take hold of You...
Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
Romans 3:11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
Joshua 24:15 "...choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..."
John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you...
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

If it is true that there are none that seek after God, call upon His name, choose Him, or receive Him, then how did we believe? John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. I. How did we believe?
A. His power
1. Ephesians 1:15-19 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power
2. 2 Corinthians 3:3-5 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
3. Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
4. John 6:63-65 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
5. Isaiah 26:12-13 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us. 13 O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

B. His gift
1. Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
2. John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.

C. His grace
1. Acts 18:27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;
2. 1 Peter 1:18-21 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
3. Romans 5:11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

II. Who will believe? John 5:39-44 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 "I do not receive honor from men. 42 "But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 "How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?
A. Those who have been given by the Father to the Son.
1. John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
2. John 17:1-2 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3. John 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
a. "They have kept Your word."

4. John 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
a. Christ prays only for them.
5. John 17:11-12 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
6. John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.


B. The sheep
1. John 10:1-5 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 "And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 "Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
2. John 10:10-11 "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. 11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
3. John 10:26-29 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

C. The chosen
1. John 15:16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
2. Psalms 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
3. Numbers 16:1-13
4. Matthew 22:1-14
5. 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

D. As many as were ordained
1. Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
2. Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

E. Whom the Lord wills
1. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
2. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (gk.-helko-to drag) him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
3. John 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

III. When did God choose us?
A. From the beginning -- Acts 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works."
1. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
2. Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

To finish reading this article please see link below and let's discuss this article.

http://www.eschatology.com/predestination.html

 

[Van]

If it is true that there are none that seek after God, call upon His name, choose Him, or receive Him, then how did we believe?

The rub of course is it is not true, but the opposite of truth.

Are there none that seek after God at any time? Nope. Are they none that seek after God at all times. Yes. Everyone is under sin, we all sin and when we sin are we seeking after God? Nope. That is what Romans 3 teaches.

After we believe in the name of Jesus, then we are given the right to become children of God, so before we are regenerated and become children of God we believe in the name of Jesus. We believe fully, we trust in Christ completely, with all our heart, when we respond to the power of God's gospel.

It is the Spirit that gives life, we are made alive together with Christ. So when the Holy Spirit baptizes us into Christ, we are made alive. And who are those who are chosen and set apart in Christ, but those whose faith God has credited as righteousness.

If you read the edited quote of Ephesians 1:19 you might conclude the idea was God worked in you in order that you believed, but if you continue to read the sentence given in verse 20, you see the idea is the great power was worked in Christ. This is the pattern of all Calvinist arguments, to reference edited portions of text, selected to twist God's word in support of false doctrine.

Lets look at a few more. Is faith an instilled gift? Nope. But doesn't Philippians 1:29 suggest it is a gift? Nope. It says we have been allowed to believe, God did not harden our hearts and prevent us from believing.

How about a man can receive nothing unless it has been given Him. But if man was given the capacity to trust in Christ or not, then when He trusts in Christ, it has, so to speak been given Him. And not only that, but the gospel, the name of Christ are all the gracious gifts of God. In summary, there is absolutely no support in scripture for the fiction of the gift of instilled faith via irresistible grace.

 

[MamaZ]

"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me." And that statement ought to be locked into everyone's mind..."All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me." In other words, the whole matter of salvation is initiated by the Father's will. All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me. Go down to verse 44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." Now look at this. Nobody comes unless the Father has sent Me draws him and I will do My best to hang on to him till the end," is that what it says? No, "I will...what?...raise him up at the last day." Now nobody gets lost in the meantime. The whole matter of the security of the believer is clearly identified right here. They are by the will of God drawn to Christ who keeps them all and raises them up at the last day. Back at verse 39, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me, I lose none but raise Him up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life and I Myself will raise Him up on the last day." God's will is that whom He draws, Christ receives. Whom Christ receives, He keeps and whom He keeps He raises to eternal glory...that's His will.

 

[Van]

How does the Father give to the Son. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to the Son. We are drawn by God's lovingkindness. We love Him because He first loved us. He demonstrated His love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Having learned of God's love and having responded in love, they came to Christ, for all that the Father gives to me will come to Me and I will in no way cast out.

 

[childofGod31]

"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me." And that statement ought to be locked into everyone's mind..."All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me." In other words, the whole matter of salvation is initiated by the Father's will. All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me. Go down to verse 44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." Now look at this. Nobody comes unless the Father has sent Me draws him and I will do My best to hang on to him till the end," is that what it says? No, "I will...what?...raise him up at the last day." Now nobody gets lost in the meantime. The whole matter of the security of the believer is clearly identified right here. They are by the will of God drawn to Christ who keeps them all and raises them up at the last day. Back at verse 39, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me, I lose none but raise Him up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life and I Myself will raise Him up on the last day." God's will is that whom He draws, Christ receives. Whom Christ receives, He keeps and whom He keeps He raises to eternal glory...that's His will.

If the Bible only had those verses that you listed, then yes, you are right. We would all agree with you. Those verses DO seem to say what you said they say.

But we interpret scriptures in the light of other scriptures. We can't just take a few verses and read them and say: this is what it sounds like it says. Because sometimes the true meaning is lost in trying to communicate the idea. And the true meaning can only be seen in the light of ALL the verses, not just a few. To just go by a few verses - will lead people to draw the wrong conclusions, which is what happened.

If you read the entire chapters of John on this subject, (5-9 I think), Jesus is talking how God and Jesus are interrelated. How it is God the Father who reveals Jesus to the people. And how it is God the Son that reveals the Father to people in turn. It almost doesn't make sense. And yet it does. Jesus said that no body has seen the Father and that Jesus came to show him. THat Jesus is the picture of GOd the Father.
And at the same time, Jesus said, nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father reveals Him to people. They reveal each other.

Jesus was talking to the Jews. Jews were already worshippers of God. They already believed and loved God. God didn't have to enable them to believe and then draw them to Jesus. They already believed in God. And as a result (because they believed in God), they also believed in Jesus. JEsus said: you will know if my teaching is true if you listen to God. They listened to God (First) and then they believed in Jesus, because God the Father, whom they already served, showed them that Jesus was His Son. (MAT 16:16,17 )

 

[Van]

Nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father reveals Him to people. What verse says this?

How does the Father give to the Son. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to the Son. We are drawn by God's lovingkindness. We love Him because He first loved us. He demonstrated His love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Having learned of God's love and having responded in love, they came to Christ, for all that the Father gives to me will come to Me and I will in no way cast out.

 

[MamaZ]

Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to the Son.

1Co 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
1Co 2:3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
1Co 2:4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
1Co 2:6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
1Co 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
1Co 2:8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
1Co 2:9 but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
1Co 2:10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
1Co 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
1Co 2:13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
1Co 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
1Co 2:15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
1Co 2:16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[yashualover]

If the Bible only had those verses that you listed, then yes, you are right. We would all agree with you. Those verses DO seem to say what you said they say.

But we interpret scriptures in the light of other scriptures. We can't just take a few verses and read them and say: this is what it sounds like it says. Because sometimes the true meaning is lost in trying to communicate the idea. And the true meaning can only be seen in the light of ALL the verses, not just a few. To just go by a few verses - will lead people to draw the wrong conclusions, which is what happened.

If you read the entire chapters of John on this subject, (5-9 I think), Jesus is talking how God and Jesus are interrelated. How it is God the Father who reveals Jesus to the people. And how it is God the Son that reveals the Father to people in turn. It almost doesn't make sense. And yet it does. Jesus said that no body has seen the Father and that Jesus came to show him. THat Jesus is the picture of GOd the Father.
And at the same time, Jesus said, nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father reveals Him to people. They reveal each other.

Jesus was talking to the Jews. Jews were already worshippers of God. They already believed and loved God. God didn't have to enable them to believe and then draw them to Jesus. They already believed in God. And as a result (because they believed in God), they also believed in Jesus. JEsus said: you will know if my teaching is true if you listen to God. They listened to God (First) and then they believed in Jesus, because God the Father, whom they already served, showed them that Jesus was His Son. (MAT 16:16,17 )

You made a statement saying we can't just take a few verses, I agree, but you can not say that about the article I posted because it is jammed packed with scripture from begining to end.

You mentioned that Jesus is a picture of God, I say Jesus is God.

Father Son and Holy Spirit are one. ONE God.

 

[yashualover]

Nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father reveals Him to people. What verse says this?

How does the Father give to the Son. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to the Son. We are drawn by God's lovingkindness. We love Him because He first loved us. He demonstrated His love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Having learned of God's love and having responded in love, they came to Christ, for all that the Father gives to me will come to Me and I will in no way cast out.

1Co 2:14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[childofGod31]

You made a statement saying we can't just take a few verses, I agree, but you can not say that about the article I posted because it is jammed packed with scripture from begining to end.

You mentioned that Jesus is a picture of God, I say Jesus is God.

Father Son and Holy Spirit are one. ONE God.

When I said ALL verses, what I meant was a few verses from different views. There is a group of verses that Calvinists use to support their theory (which you supplied in your post). There is a DIFFERENT group of verses (verses that don't sound favorable for predestination theory) that Arminians use to support their theory. (which Calvinists usually don't post because they would seem to contradict their view). I meant that the correct theory would RECONCILE both kinds of verses (hence: "all" verses), because otheriwise it's just one sided, and therefore, wrong.

It says that He is the express image of his person (God), he is the brightness of his glory. He is the exact image. So that's why I said he is a picture. I don't claim to know the truth about the Trinity. It's still a mystery to me. But I suspect it's a mystery to everybody, but some more arrogant ones will claim that they really know...
And yes, Jesus is God, because John 1 says the Word was God...

 

[MamaZ]

Jesus was talking to the Jews. Jews were already worshippers of God. They already believed and loved God. God didn't have to enable them to believe and then draw them to Jesus. They already believed in God. And as a result (because they believed in God), they also believed in Jesus. JEsus said: you will know if my teaching is true if you listen to God. They listened to God (First) and then they believed in Jesus, because God the Father, whom they already served, showed them that Jesus was His Son. (MAT 16:16,17 )

You have done a great job of twisting what the scriptures actually say here. This is what the Jewish people kept trying to say to Jesus.. That Abraham was their Father. Jesus didn't buy it either.. LOL

 

[yashualover]

When I said ALL verses, what I meant was a few verses from different views. There is a group of verses that Calvinists use to support their theory (which you supplied in your post). There is a DIFFERENT group of verses (verses that don't sound favorable for predestination theory) that Arminians use to support their theory. (which Calvinists usually don't post because they would seem to contradict their view). I meant that the correct theory would RECONCILE both kinds of verses (hence: "all" verses), because otheriwise it's just one sided, and therefore, wrong.

It says that He is the express image of his person (God), he is the brightness of his glory. He is the exact image. So that's why I said he is a picture. I don't claim to know the truth about the Trinity. It's still a mystery to me. But I suspect it's a mystery to everybody, but some more arrogant ones will claim that they really know...
And yes, Jesus is God, because John 1 says the Word was God...

I have a suggestion, why don't you give us a few verses that Arminians use to attempt to contradict Calvinism and I will try to prove that they take those verses out of contex or they misunderstand them. Just a few at a time, I am not that great of a typer.

 

[childofGod31]

I have a suggestion, why don't you give us a few verses that Arminians use to attempt to contradict Calvinism and I will try to prove that they take those verses out of contex or they misunderstand them. Just a few at a time, I am not that great of a typer.

I am sorry, I guess I didn't say it quite right. They DO have explanations, but the explanations make no sense. So they feel that they have explained the verses, but I feel that they didn't. It's kind of hard to argue in this case, don't you think? They would say: it says this. I would say: no, it definitely says something else. And we will never get anywhere.

When people asked: what is the work that God requires us to do? Jesus said: to believe in the one whom He sent. So "believing" - is the work that people should do. But Calvinists claim that it's God that does that. And they base it on Eph 2:8. But they don't understand that the word "gift" referred to "you are saved" NOT the word "faith" as they say. (faith was in parentheses, grammatically) But if they are convinced they are right, how can we argue? What can be accomplished by argument?

When God is telling everybody: "all you have to do is believe (and obey), and you will be saved" and then ultimately makes the decision himself, does this sound like He is giving them a choice? No. But Calvinists say it does. If they can believe something that doesn't make sense, then how can anyone convince them otherwise?
They say: people choose to disobey. But if you can choose only 1 thing, it's not called a "choice". Choice means 2 or more things to choose from. In other words, logical conclusion is: people do not have a choice. Then why is God talking like he is giving them a choice? Sounds like a politican to me.

I can see when I read the Bible that God is pleased with those who are faithful and is upset with those who are stubborn in their disobedience. If it was God himself who enabled people to believe and then be good, why would he be pleased with them and promise them rewards? What did THEY do? It was all his doing. And why is he upset with the rest, even though He knows they are unable to choose good? This doesn't make any sense. Yet, calvinists believe it and say it all makes sense.

It also doesn't make sense that God said that he doesn't desire the death of the wicked and he rather all would repent and live. And then he goes and chooses/enables only a few to believe and therefore live. It doesn't make sense that God desires for ALL to come to repentance, but then chooses/enables only a few to believe.

This idea of creating vessels for destruction sounds cruel. Even we, as peolple, who are not as righteous as God, would think it's criminal to create a living being, just to torture it later and not even give it a choice of any kind.

So what am I trying to say by all of this? I am saying that "predestination theory' makes God sound cruel, and therefore, it must be wrong, because we know that God is GOOD and righteous. That would mean that people misunderstand the meaning of the verses when they read: you brothers, chosen by God. They don't understand what "chosen" really means and how it came about.

The Bible says the truth. But when a person reads it, it becomes a matter of their understanding, their interpretation. And interpretations could be dead wrong. And I believe that Calvinists are wrong in their interpretations of "chosen" and "elected" verses.

So explanations have no value if they don't make sense to a listener. They cannot convince somebody if they sound like somebody is trying to convince you that 2 + 2 = 5.

 

[MamaZ]

So what am I trying to say by all of this? I am saying that "predestination theory' makes God sound cruel, and therefore, it must be wrong, because we know that God is GOOD and righteous. That would mean that people misunderstand the meaning of the verses when they read: you brothers, chosen by God. They don't understand what "chosen" really means and how it came about.

Actually what it makes God is sovereign ,Just, Holy, and Love..

 

[heymikey80]

I am sorry, I guess I didn't say it quite right. They DO have explanations, but the explanations make no sense. So they feel that they have explained the verses, but I feel that they didn't. It's kind of hard to argue in this case, don't you think? They would say: it says this. I would say: no, it definitely says something else. And we will never get anywhere.

I believe you'll find that, if you have no way to demonstrate the meaning is in the verse, that the meaning is not in the verse. That is, the meaning is not exegeted from the verse.

If you have some reason to challenge another's view of what the verse says, the same thing applies. That is, there's likely to be something that both sides are implying onto the verse. But the verse itself says what it says. If no one can get that meaning out of the verse, demonstrably, then that meaning is not really in the verse.

Reformed Theology demands our situation be understood as well. We don't have some crystal ball to strip our own prejudices off the meaning of a verse. So we're always reforming, always listening to the other side to try to find more of what's actually in the verse.

But then, that's Reformed Theology. It's built on this principle. That's why it's so tough to deal with from outside, and why some of our viewpoints are unexpected by the English connotations in an English translation built on English tradition.

 

[Van]

Originally Posted by Van

Nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father reveals Him to people. What verse says this?

How does the Father give to the Son. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to the Son. We are drawn by God's lovingkindness. We love Him because He first loved us. He demonstrated His love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Having learned of God's love and having responded in love, they came to Christ, for all that the Father gives to me will come to Me and I will in no way cast out.
​

1Co 2:14

Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Right, men in the flesh can understand the milk of the gospel, but not the spiritual things discerned with the help of the Holy Spirit.
1 Co 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as spiritual, but as unto carnal, as babes in Christ.
1 Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat, for hitherto you were not able to hear it, neither are you now able.

 

[MamaZ]

Right, men in the flesh can understand the milk of the gospel,

UUHH you may want to read this in context. LOL..
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
1Co 3:3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?
1Co 3:4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?
1Co 3:5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
1Co 3:6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
1Co 3:7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
1Co 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
1Co 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

 

[Van]

Thanks for supporting the biblical truth that men in the flesh can understand the milk of the gospel. The context strengthens the view, for the babes in Christ had the understanding of men in the flesh. QED

 

[MamaZ]

Thanks for supporting the biblical truth that men in the flesh can understand the milk of the gospel. The context strengthens the view, for the babes in Christ had the understanding of men in the flesh. QED

Notice paul states as mere men? Not you are mere men? They were already born again. Coincides with overcoming the deeds of the flesh.

 

[Light hearted]

New living translation
Ephesians 1: 4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5 God decided in advance to adopt us (PREDESTINED US) into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.

12 God’s purpose was that we Jews who were the first to trust in Christ would bring praise and glory to God. 13 And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own[d] by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.

There you go. I put in the word predestined for you. As you will see, there are the predestined ones, and the ones who will hear the Gospel and believe in which will be the basis for the non-predestined ones to be saved.

I still say, if predestined were the only way to heaven then Jesus lied everytime he says, everyone who belives in me.

The predestioned also means the early church leaders, that was who Paul was writing to. Ephesias 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers.

These people were predestined by God to teach anyone and everyone who will listen to believe in Christ and find salvation.

If you who are pushing this predestination thing, and are truely saved, you must be one of the people I mentioned above. Your job now, according to the Bible is to go teach about salvation to the lost, instead you are going agaist God's will any clutching your own salvation.