Predestination and Election

[chestertonrules]

You're avoiding my question. Define "author of sin", as you mean it.

My definition of author of sin:

that this sin was ordained, ie. decreed or enacted , by God.

This is contrary to biblical teaching.

If this is not what you mean, what do you mean?

 

[nobdysfool]

My definition of author of sin:

This is contrary to biblical teaching.

If this is not what you mean, what do you mean?

No, that is not your definition, you're trying to trap me by twisting my words in a way that hides your view. You need to answer the question, What is your definition of "author of sin"?

Your words, not mine. Quit dodging the question, and answer it, in your own words.

 

[chestertonrules]

No, that is not your definition, you're trying to trap me by twisting my words in a way that hides your view. You need to answer the question, What is your definition of "author of sin"?

Your words, not mine. Quit dodging the question, and answer it, in your own words.

I'm answering honestly and clearly. I am not trying to trap you, just point out a flaw in your reasoning.

My definition of author of sin:

that this sin was ordained, ie. decreed or enacted , by God.




If this is not what you mean, what do you mean?

 

[Drwhat]

Hi Yashualover,
It is actually quite clear don't you think that it is God who draws us unto Him and not the other way around.I know a lot of people don't like that truth as they feel it denigrates them to puppets or robots but then the ego would think at least that wouldn't it, when actually it's far worse than that, were all a lump of clay.

 

[nobdysfool]

I'm answering honestly and clearly. I am not trying to trap you, just point out a flaw in your reasoning.

My definition of author of sin:

that this sin was ordained, ie. decreed or enacted , by God.

If this is not what you mean, what do you mean?

Was the betrayal of Jesus prophesied in the OT? Yes or no.

Did Jesus choose Judas as one of the twelve, knowing that it would be Judas that would betray Him? Yes or no.

Does prophecy deal with certainties, or only potentialities? Yes or no.

Was the Crucifixion, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus prophesied, or was it only a possibility, left to chance? Yes or no.

When God has prophesied something, does it fail to come to pass?

Each of these questions has a clear answer, and requires no elaboration, or qualification. Simply answer the questions, and we can move on.

Can you do that?

 

[chestertonrules]

Hi Yashualover,
It is actually quite clear don't you think that it is God who draws us unto Him and not the other way around.I know a lot of people don't like that truth as they feel it denigrates them to puppets or robots but then the ego would think at least that wouldn't it, when actually it's far worse than that, were all a lump of clay.

Jesus draws all men to himself.

Some will refuse him, however.

 

[chestertonrules]

Was the betrayal of Jesus prophesied in the OT? Yes or no.

Did Jesus choose Judas as one of the twelve, knowing that it would be Judas that would betray Him? Yes or no.

Does prophecy deal with certainties, or only potentialities? Yes or no.

Was the Crucifixion, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus prophesied, or was it only a possibility, left to chance? Yes or no.

When God has prophesied something, does it fail to come to pass?

Each of these questions has a clear answer, and requires no elaboration, or qualification. Simply answer the questions, and we can move on.

Can you do that?

There is a difference between knowing that a person will sin and making a person sin.

Agreed?

Do you believe God makes us sin?

 

[nobdysfool]

There is a difference between knowing that a person will sin and making a person sin.

Agreed?

Do you believe God makes us sin?

Still dodging the questions, aren't you? But, no, God does not make us sin. I have never said that, and you know it. That is a ridiculous charge. No Calvinist says that.

Now, answer the questions.

 

[chestertonrules]

Still dodging the questions, aren't you? But, no, God does not make us sin. I have never said that, and you know it. That is a ridiculous charge. No Calvinist says that.

Now, answer the questions.

Here is what you said:

So it is clear that this sin was ordained to happen

Who ordained this sin if not God? If God ordained it, then God made Judas sin.


You have trouble standing by your own statements, apparently.

 

[nobdysfool]

Here is what you said:



Who ordained this sin if not God? If God ordained it, then God made Judas sin.


You have trouble standing by your own statements, apparently.

Still avoiding the questions, aren't you? why do you avoid them? Are you afraid to answer them? Are you afraid of what is uncovered if you do answer them in accord with scripture?


As for your ridiculous statement that if God ordained Judas' sin, then God "made" him sin, you show an alarming lack of knowledge of how cause and effect work, and how secondary elements are used, both in man's actions, and in God's.

God did not cause Judas to sin. He did not grab him by the scruff of the neck, and "force" him to betray Jesus, with Judas kicking and screaming the whole way in protest and resistance. You cannot possibly credibly believe such a thing. And neither do I.

All men sin because they want to and they choose to, given the opportunity. God prophesied that Jesus would be betrayed. All it took was a man with the right disposition, and the right mindset for that to happen. Jesus knew that Judas met that criteria, and chose him specifically to fulfill scripture, as scripture plainly says.

Therefore, God ordained that Jesus would be betrayed, and Jesus chose the man who would do it. Since the entire scenario of the Crucifixion was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world, the events which led up to it, and those that followed it were likewise ordained, and therefore certain. Jesus, being God, also knew the entire scenario, and lived in the midst of it being played out, exactly as He fore-ordained it. It is ludicrous to think that any part of it was left to chance, to mere random occurrences.

Now, answer the questions I have asked of you, that you are avoiding. Answer them!

 

[beloved57]

Back to the question --- was Judas "ordained to bear fruit that remained"?

Nope, he was not a believer..only believers bear fruit..

matt 13:

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.


So the scripture says that judas was a devil jn 6 :

70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

That he was a thief jn 12:

6This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

That he was an unbeliever: jn 6:

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

That he was not clean jn 13:

For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

called the son of perdition Jn 17:

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

And ben still insist he[judas] was a believer and saved by Gods grace.. Incredible..

 

[yashualover]

You wrote:





I assume you mean that this sin was ordained, ie. decreed or enacted , by God.

This is contrary to biblical teaching.

If this is not what you mean, what do you mean?

All are sinners and deserve hell and that includes Judas, Jesus knew that the Father had not given Judas to Him as one of the elect, obviously!
YHWH sees all and knows all things before they happen this would include Judas betraying Christ.

I've had people ask me what happens to people who never hear the gospel? I tell them their own sin condems them to hell. YHWH is under no obligation to save anybody, YHWH does what He wants because He is Sovereign and He is not to be questioned.

 

[chestertonrules]

Still avoiding the questions, aren't you? why do you avoid them? Are you afraid to answer them? Are you afraid of what is uncovered if you do answer them in accord with scripture?


As for your ridiculous statement that if God ordained Judas' sin, then God "made" him sin, you show an alarming lack of knowledge of how cause and effect work, and how secondary elements are used, both in man's actions, and in God's.

God did not cause Judas to sin. He did not grab him by the scruff of the neck, and "force" him to betray Jesus, with Judas kicking and screaming the whole way in protest and resistance. You cannot possibly credibly believe such a thing. And neither do I.

All men sin because they want to and they choose to, given the opportunity. God prophesied that Jesus would be betrayed. All it took was a man with the right disposition, and the right mindset for that to happen. Jesus knew that Judas met that criteria, and chose him specifically to fulfill scripture, as scripture plainly says.

Therefore, God ordained that Jesus would be betrayed, and Jesus chose the man who would do it. Since the entire scenario of the Crucifixion was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world, the events which led up to it, and those that followed it were likewise ordained, and therefore certain. Jesus, being God, also knew the entire scenario, and lived in the midst of it being played out, exactly as He fore-ordained it. It is ludicrous to think that any part of it was left to chance, to mere random occurrences.

Now, answer the questions I have asked of you, that you are avoiding. Answer them!

I already answered your questions when I said that yes, God knows what will happen, but he doesn't make our decisions for us.

Calvinists claim God decides who will go to heaven or hell with no regard for our decisions. This is directly contradicted by scripture.

Unconditional election is not biblical.

 

[yashualover]

Hi Yashualover,
It is actually quite clear don't you think that it is God who draws us unto Him and not the other way around.I know a lot of people don't like that truth as they feel it denigrates them to puppets or robots but then the ego would think at least that wouldn't it, when actually it's far worse than that, were all a lump of clay.

Alot of people do not like that truth beause they want to be seated on the throne, they deny YHWH'S Sovereinty.

YHWH chose me and I do not feel like a puppet.

He simply resurects a dead man and illuminates him to reality so that he can see a true picture of himself, and that his righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God. Those who have been predestined to be born again before the earth was created have been given a knew heart at the appointed time, which gives them the desire to serve and trust in Him, it also enables them to repent and accept Jesus as our advocate, He paid for the sins of the elect past, present and future, Glory to His holy name, He deserves ALL the glory for redemption we get none.

Why is so difficult for people to believe that YHWH Almighty had a perfect plan from begining to the end of the world as we know it, I mean Hello! He speakes and mountains melt, how dare us puny humans question Him.

 

[beloved57]

I

already answered your questions when I said that yes, God knows what will happen, but he doesn't make our decisions for us.

God determined where you are going to spend eternity before you were born..Your decision was not consulted nor needed nor even cared about..

 

[moonbeam]

I already answered your questions

You have failed to answer 10,000 questions on this thread...my "silly" question being one of them chestertonrules

You run from the truth like a startled rabbit....you should change your name to AVOIDENCE..rules.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by NBF:
No, yourself, Ben. MamaZ is correct.​

She is "correc", only because she supports "RT". The fact remains that Jesus chose all twelve and ordained that they would bear fruit which remains.

Quote:
Yes, indeed. Your problem is that you think that there was only one fruit. ​

Yes, that's true. Those who Jesus "ordains to bear fruit" --- how many kinds of fruit can they bear?

Can they bear SINFUL fruit???

QUote:
His sin was prophesied, therefore it was pre-ordained.​

The English definition of "ordained", is "decree/establish/enact". The GREEK in Jn15 ("tithemi") is "set-forth, establish, ordain".

Did Jesus DECIDE Judas would sin?

Quote:
Prophecy deals with certainty, not chance. It was prophesied that Jesus would be betrayed. So it is clear that this sin was ordained to happen, prophesied to happen, and Jesus chose Judas, knowing that it was Judas who would betray Him. Jesus did not choose Judas "in the hope" that Judas would not betray Him.​

Can you explain the difference between "ordain", and "foretell"?

When Jesus said "I chose all twelve, and ONE is a devil", was He not answering Peter's promise NOT to leave? Please explain how Jesus was not saying "ANY of you COULD leave".

Quote:
It was a deliberate choice, made with full knowledge of what would certainly happen, with full knowledge of that certainty. ​

Why would Jesus choose a non-repentant reprobate as a Disciple?

Do you think He does that today? Does He "ordain men's sin", or was Judas just a special case?

Quote:
So the answer to #2 is an unequivocal "YES"​

Jesus came to DESTROY sin. In Jesus there is no sin. Please explain then how Jesus could ORDAIN/PREDESTINE sin.

How is that not a contradiction?

Quote:
Given the answer to # 2, NO. Judas was chosen to bear BAD FRUIT, which remained.​

How do you accommodate 1Jn3:5?

Quote:
Can you deny that Judas played an integral part in the events leading up to the Crucifixion? Can you deny that the Crucifixion was fore-ordained to happen, given all the prophecy in the OT about it? Was the crucifixion predestined? Scripture says "YES".​

I recognize that Judas was forekown. I recognize that Jesus was put in a time and place where He would be crucified. But I recognize that God chose NO sin of ANY man.

Quote:
In reality, this has nothing to do with Judas directly. But, the answer to the question is, while there was the potentiality of the other eleven leaving, the actuality was that they didn't, and Jesus knew they wouldn't. He asked them the question, not because He didn't know, or needed to know, but to elicit from them an affirmation of faith in Him. ​

Just like He prayed to the Father that PETER'S faith not fail? "100% effective means" is not what Jesus said; in answering Peter, Jesus was clearly saying, "Yes, you could".

What about the OTHER DISCIPLES that left? Were they "UNSAVED DISCIPLES"? And in Acts20:30, are THEY "unsaved disciples being drawn away from where they never WERE"? When will you begin to see the contradictions?

Quote:
Your canned answers show just how close-minded you are, and how much you refuse to see. Your questions are slanted and do not correctly state the problem.​

With sincere respect --- I would much rather be accused of "close-mindedness" and "blindness", than to suggest that my Lord Jesus caused/ordained sin.

Quote:
Reformed Theology answers it just fine, Ben, The problem here is that you refuse to accept any answer that does not agree with your already-decided-on outcome, which is flawed. You ask, nay demand, answers to questions that you have no intention of ever considering those answers as anything other than fodder for you to shoot at. You refuse to be corrected about anything. You refuse to accept that you could have missed the Truth on anything. This is amply demonstrated by the record of posts and interactions with you going back literally years, and can be confirmed by any number of other posters here. ​

And more's the pity --- that your understanding of Jesus is that He could, and did ordain ANY sin, EVER.

He did not, He could not.

"Jesus came to DESTROY sin; in Him there is no sin." Never would He ordain it. Not in all eternity.

Quote:
Bottom line, it is your theology that leaves questions unanswered, or answers them wrongly.
​

"Wrongly" --- just because they conflict "Reformed Theology". But you just embraced a Christ who ordains sin.

There is a universe of difference between "foreknew", and "ordained".

 

[moonbeam]

Good try Ben but still Far from truth. For judas did bear the fruit for which he was chosen. He was never saved. He was not chosen to be saved. He was chosen to fulfill scripture. Which he did.

AMEN.....spot on MamaZ

mr johnson seems determined to establish a solid link between himself and Judas the son of perdition.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Chesterson:
James 1:13-18
13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Sin is not simply rebellion against God; rather, it is the refusal of God's grace, which aims to bring the sinner from death into life, from bad news into good news. It would be absurd to think that God desires the ugliness of death or the self-destructiveness of sin God wants to rescue us from the terrible results of sin.
​

Excellent post, and very excellent citation. By using "psuche-thanatos", there is no denying he's speaking of "eternal death". By speaking to "beloved brethern", there is no denying he's talking to the SAVED.

Quote:
Jesus draws all men to himself.

Some will refuse him, however.​

Exactly right. Scriptures include Jn12:32, and perhaps Acts7:51. Maybe John5:39-47.

And the stark reality of our lives, is that the very same ability to REFUSE God in the FIRST place (unbelief!), continues throughout our lives. This is why there are warnings like 2Pet1:5-10.

Warnings for us to be diligence in our calling and election, SO THAT the gates of Heaven BE provided.

Warnings against deceivers; who in every case strive to lure us away from CHRIST. See 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, Col2:6-8, 2Pet3:17, 2Cor11:3, just to name a few...

 

[nobdysfool]

I already answered your questions when I said that yes, God knows what will happen, but he doesn't make our decisions for us.

Calvinists claim God decides who will go to heaven or hell with no regard for our decisions. This is directly contradicted by scripture.

Unconditional election is not biblical.

No, you avoided my questions, and did not answer them. I answered yours. So who's running and hiding, and who is not? It is YOU who is running and hiding, because you refuse to answer simple questions which establish biblical truth, and show your view to be deficient. You can't handle the Truth!