Predestination and Election

[moonbeam]

Ben if the God you serve bends His knee to sinful people then the God you serve is Not God of the scriptures..

Amen....the FACT is mr johnson does not serve the God of scripture...period.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Moonbeam:
Amen....the FACT is mr johnson does not serve the God of scripture...period.​

In Matt12:24, the Pharisees accused Jesus of "casting out demons by the prince-of-demons" --- essentially calling the Holy Spirit, "evil".

What if I do serve God, Moonbeam? Then by accusing me of not serving Him --- where do you stand?

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Ben if the God you serve bends His knee to sinful people then the God you serve is Not God of the scriptures.. For the one and only true God bends His knee to no one but all men will bend their knee to Him.​

Who said anything about "God bending knee"?

God's position is receiving men who come to Him by faith. That is not God bowing to us; but in His sovereignty it is availing Himself to us (drawing sufficiently to overcome depravity) --- and then giving each a CHOICE to believe, or not.

That's the only way that a "Final Judgment" can exist; men are saved FOR seeking God and pursuing righteousness, and other men are condemned FOR unbelief and pursuing sin. There is no way to deny Rom2:6-8.

God receives faith, He does not cause it. And BY faith we receive His grace. "Receiving as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls." 1Pet1:9

 

[MamaZ]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Ben if the God you serve bends His knee to sinful people then the God you serve is Not God of the scriptures.. For the one and only true God bends His knee to no one but all men will bend their knee to Him.
​

Who said anything about "God bending knee"?

God's position is receiving men who come to Him by faith. That is not God bowing to us; but in His sovereignty it is availing Himself to us (drawing sufficiently to overcome depravity) --- and then giving each a CHOICE to believe, or not.

That's the only way that a "Final Judgment" can exist; men are saved FOR seeking God and pursuing righteousness, and other men are condemned FOR unbelief and pursuing sin. There is no way to deny Rom2:6-8.

God receives faith, He does not cause it. And BY faith we receive His grace. "Receiving as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls." 1Pet1:9

You say so in your posts. For God is the savior of the body and soul.. Men are not. God does not bend his knee to mans faith.. God gives us the gift of faith when we are made alive in Him. Simple as that. Men can do NOTHING to save themselves.. Nothing..

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
You say so in your posts. For God is the savior of the body and soul.. Men are not. God does not bend his knee to mans faith.. God gives us the gift of faith when we are made alive in Him. Simple as that. Men can do NOTHING to save themselves.. Nothing..​

What happens in Heb11:6? Does GOD come to men WITH their saving-faith, or does God RECEIVE men who come to HIM, BY faith?

If God gifts saving-faith to a few, then on what does He judge men? (See Rom2:6-8!)

 

[beloved57]

Quoted by MamaZ:
You say so in your posts. For God is the savior of the body and soul.. Men are not. God does not bend his knee to mans faith.. God gives us the gift of faith when we are made alive in Him. Simple as that. Men can do NOTHING to save themselves.. Nothing..
​

What happens in Heb11:6? Does GOD come to men WITH their saving-faith, or does God RECEIVE men who come to HIM, BY faith?

If God gifts saving-faith to a few, then on what does He judge men? (See Rom2:6-8!)

Predestination and election are gospel Truthes..

eph 1:


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[heymikey80]

I'm answering honestly and clearly. I am not trying to trap you, just point out a flaw in your reasoning.

My definition of author of sin:

that this sin was ordained, ie. decreed or enacted , by God.

If this is not what you mean, what do you mean?

That's your definition, and it's a poor one.

Am I the author of my descendants' sin, because I know and desire that they should exist even though I also know they shall sin?

You might assert at this point that I'm not an author because they are entirely free. But at one point, no, they are not entirely free. They don't even exist. I have the choice. Am I then the author of their sin simply because I'm the chief factor in their procreation?

Of course God is intensely more responsible in all this, because He's God, and I'm not. But to say that's authorship of sin is simply to mince words. God didn't commit sin. He didn't have a sinful intent in creating men who would then fall (and He knew they would, and He made them that way anyway).

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3​

Ultimately your position fails under the same idea of authorship. God knew. God could have made the world differently. God could have ordained to have sin or not in His creation. Each is an ordaining act of God's omniscience in creation. Y'can't say "God delegated this responsibility to someone He created" because God created who He created. He made all the way they are.

You're back in the same boat. Welcome. In your definition God's effectively the author of sin, too.

 

[MamaZ]

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

 

[MamaZ]

If God gifts saving-faith to a few, then on what does He judge men?

You forgot 5


Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
Rom 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Beloved57:
Predestination and election are gospel Truths..

eph 1:
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,​

The "good pleasure of His will", is clearly spelled out in Jn6:40 --- that "all who see Jesus and believe may be saved."

Paired with what Jesus said to Thomas, "You believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen, and yet believe" --- and the concept of "God decides who believes", is ruined...

Eph1:13 says that we were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

...AFTER believing...

"Sealed" is "received" is "gifted" is "poured" is "fell-upon"; and per Titus3:5-6 (in context with Acts10:43-37 and 11:17), we received/were-sealed AFTER belief, and THEN comes regeneration.


If "predestination/election" are God's choice FOR us, then why does Peter warn us to "be diligent (against the man who FELL FROM SALVATION) about our calling and election, so that the gates of Heaven BE provided to us"? 2:1:5-10

You can't explain the contradictions, "Beloved". Jesus clearly taught that all men are invited to salvation, but those who COME, become the chosen. Matt22:2-14

 

[beloved57]

You can't explain the contradictions, "Beloved". Jesus clearly taught that all men are invited to salvation

No the scripture doesnt teach that, ben does, and thats why you are a false witness..and the day of judgment is close ben..

 

[nobdysfool]

Quoted by Beloved57:
Predestination and election are gospel Truths..

eph 1:
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,​

The "good pleasure of His will", is clearly spelled out in Jn6:40 --- that "all who see Jesus and believe may be saved."

Joh 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (40) And this is the will of Him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
​

You cannot separate verse 39 from verse 40. You cannot claim that the Father has given all men to the Son.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
​

Jesus makes it plain that no man can come to Him on their own power, by their own will. it would be meaningless for Jesus to say this unless there were those whom the Father would NOT draw, and would NOT give to Jesus, and therefore would not and could not be saved.

Paired with what Jesus said to Thomas, "You believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen, and yet believe" --- and the concept of "God decides who believes", is ruined...

Not at all, because you are reading into this verse something that isn't there. Have you seen Jesus? Are you claiming that you are better than Thomas because you have not seen Him physically, and yet believe? Is Thomas a second-class Christian because he did not believe until he had seen the risen Christ? Or was Thomas, saved before then, as the rest were?

Eph1:13 says that we were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

...AFTER believing...

which does not conflict with Reformed theology at all.

"Sealed" is "received" is "gifted" is "poured" is "fell-upon"; and per Titus3:5-6 (in context with Acts10:43-37 and 11:17), we received/were-sealed AFTER belief, and THEN comes regeneration.

Totally without foundation. you are equating terms in order to produce a desired outcome. This is not biblical exegesis, it is blatant eisegesis. What you argue for logically is an unregenerate man being filled with the Spirit, and believing, prior to his spirit being regenerated, and brought to life by God.

If "predestination/election" are God's choice FOR us, then why does Peter warn us to "be diligent (against the man who FELL FROM SALVATION) about our calling and election, so that the gates of Heaven BE provided to us"? 2:1:5-10

Because our walk with Christ is a synergistic relationship. God provides the means, and we walk it out. God preserves us as we persevere. You need to remember, , "Is God's hand so short that it cannot save?" Your theology requires us to add to the work of Christ.

You can't explain the contradictions, "Beloved". Jesus clearly taught that all men are invited to salvation, but those who COME, become the chosen. Matt22:2-14

Which translates into: Men make God choose them, by their wise choice of Him. God chooses those who choose Him first. You preach a totally anthropo-centric Gospel, which is a false gospel.

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by MamaZ:
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. ​

Excellent --- notice that in Heb11:6, God's position is receiving the faith of men who come to Him BY faith. Saving-faith is therefore "man-towards-God", not "God-towards-man".

Well done on linking Rom10; notice that "how can they believe in whom they have not heard, and how can they hear without a preacher", absolutely wrests belief with the individual.

In no way could belief EVER hinge on "preacher availability", if belief was sovereignly predestined.

Quote:
Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
Rom 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
​

Excellent again; but don't start with 5, start with 4.

God's patience and kindness and forebearance are MEANT to lead us to REPENTANCE --- but stubborn unrepentant hearts make God MAD.

Wait --- why would He get mad, if eternal destiny is PREDESTINED?
How could His kindness be MEANT to lead us to repentance, if repentance and saving-faith are His decision OR us?

There's only one answer, "MamaZ" --- God gives us a CHOICE to believe or not.

God's kindness patience and forebearance are meant to lead men to repentance.
If they don't repent, He's angry.
And the JUDGMENT, is the CONSEQUENCE of willful unrepentance.
Those WHO seek glory honor immortality, receive eternal life.
Those WHO seek selfishness and unrighteousness (willfully unrepentant!), receive wrath (Hell!).

Can you argue with this?

 

[Rightglory]

Nobydsfool,

(Joh 6:39-40 )You cannot separate verse 39 from verse 40. You cannot claim that the Father has given all men to the Son.

But Scripture does many times. Vs 39 is mankind, vs 40 are those of all mankind that believe.
Rom 5:18-19 says the same thing.
Col 1:15-20 includes all things, not just mankind. Not a thing was excluded from the Work of Christ on the Cross. He reconciled ALL THINGS TO HIMSELF. I see no exclusion that would fit your statement.
It is the same distinction being made if Eph 2:5 from Eph 2:9.
It is also confirmed in I Cor 15: 20-22. I don't see any human being excluded from being saved from the fall, from the condemnation we all recieved through Adam. None.

Jesus makes it plain that no man can come to Him on their own power, by their own will.

I don't think there is anything in Scripture that says we do. However, God does not act our will. We are the ones who choose. God draws all men to Himself. John 12:32, John 1:9
He calls all to repentance II Pet 3:9, that He desires all men to be saved:

What you argue for logically is an unregenerate man being filled with the Spirit, and believing, prior to his spirit being regenerated, and brought to life by God.

That would be illogical but your viewpoint is just as illogical since it requires the same thing. You want an unregenerate to be gifted with the Holy Spirit just so he can believe.
However, Scripture says that it is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict man, to influence man to repent. All men have the ability to respond to God's call. The Holy Spirit was poured out upon all flesh, Acts 2:17. It is innate within our very nature. That is why we are culpable for our responses. It is WE that respond, not God to Himself. It is why He can sincerely call all men. All men will give an account of their response to God in the measure of Grace He accorded to them. Rom 1:18-22.
Once we believe, repent, are baptised, we enter INTO Christ then are given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That is Scriptural regeneration found in Rom 6.
There is no text, nothing stated or implied in scripture that any person is predestined to be a believer. But there is evidence that believers are predestined to be conformed to His Image. Rom 8:29 and Eph1:4.

 

[heymikey80]

In no way could belief EVER hinge on "preacher availability", if belief was sovereignly predestined.

God has not only decreed the final destiny of man, but also the means whereby it will be realized. Berkhof

He decrees the ends towards its accomplishment [of salvation] John Murray
​

God ordains means as well as ends.

 

[MamaZ]

Ben God does not bow to mens faith.. Men bow to God and God gives them faith. It is as simple as that. He draws us and many are called.. But only a few are chosen. So God is the drawing agent and He is also the choosing agent and we are but mere pots of clay in a potters hand made for Gods glory and plan of all things. The men that had faith in God are the men whom God chose to speak to and set apart unto Himself.

 

[nobdysfool]

That would be illogical but your viewpoint is just as illogical since it requires the same thing. You want an unregenerate to be gifted with the Holy Spirit just so he can believe.

How little you actually know of Reformed Theology, to make a statement like that. That is absolutely not what RT teaches. Monergistic regeneration is not "gifting" of the Holy Spirit, it is the re-creation of the man's spirit BY the Holy Spirit, so that the man's will is changed, and he chooses to believe. The spirit does not indwell prior to regeneration, and I'm really tired of all the anti-Calvinists who keep repeating that lie. Indwelling happens AFTER Regeneration, Faith, and Justification, when the vessel is clean. Unregenerates are not clean.

I'm not going to argue your viewpoint, since, unlike some here, I have not studied it. Some of the things you say I have a problem with, but until I can understand why, I will not waste either one of our time debating it. Too bad most of the anti-Calvinists have no such discipline, to stop speaking against that which they do not know.

 

[DeaconDean]

How little you actually know of Reformed Theology, to make a statement like that. That is absolutely not what RT teaches. Monergistic regeneration is not "gifting" of the Holy Spirit, it is the re-creation of the man's spirit BY the Holy Spirit, so that the man's will is changed, and he chooses to believe. The spirit does not indwell prior to regeneration, and I'm really tired of all the anti-Calvinists who keep repeating that lie. Indwelling happens AFTER Regeneration, Faith, and Justification, when the vessel is clean. Unregenerates are not clean.

I'm not going to argue your viewpoint, since, unlike some here, I have not studied it. Some of the things you say I have a problem with, but until I can understand why, I will not waste either one of our time debating it. Too bad most of the anti-Calvinists have no such discipline, to stop speaking against that which they do not know.

That is absolutely right Bro.

Remember the thread started by JAL and this subject?

Charles Hodge has one of the best discourses on the workings of the Holy Spirit in the process of salvation. I suggest some here read this.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." -Psa. 51:10 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Rightglory]

nobydsfool,

Monergistic regeneration is not "gifting" of the Holy Spirit, it is the re-creation of the man's spirit BY the Holy Spirit, so that the man's will is changed, and he chooses to believe.

fine symatic point, but means the very same thing. You have a God who is particular, "respector of persons" who arbitrarily has selected some to have this regeneration for no particular reason. Nothing is scripture is even close to supporting such a view.

The spirit does not indwell prior to regeneration, and I'm really tired of all the anti-Calvinists who keep repeating that lie.

But scripturally it is not a lie. Here is what you just stated:

Indwelling happens AFTER Regeneration, Faith, and Justification, when the vessel is clean. Unregenerates are not clean.

no place is scripture is faith and justification by that faith, repentance and baptism EVER after regeneration. That is why no one is going to believe what you are saying. You have clearly denied what Scripture says. Regeneration is the result of someone believing, being justified by faith, repenting , being baptised, and then receiving the Holy Spirit.

I'm not going to argue your viewpoint, since, unlike some here, I have not studied it.

Fortunately, it is not my viewpoint so I don't need to argue from a personal opinion, but one I have accepted. It is the historic Christian faith of the Apostles, it is what Scripture has always meant, and what it will always mean to the end of time, as Christ promised it would be.

 

[DeaconDean]

Regeneration is the result of someone believing, being justified by faith, repenting , being baptised, and then receiving the Holy Spirit.
Fortunately, it is not my viewpoint so I don't need to argue from a personal opinion, but one I have accepted. It is the historic Christian faith of the Apostles, it is what Scripture has always meant, and what it will always mean to the end of time, as Christ promised it would be.

Lets see what Charles Hodge says on this:

"It is the special office of the Spirit to convince the world of sin; to reveal Christ, to regenerate the soul, to lead men to the exercise of faith and repentance; to dwell in those whom He thus renews, as a principle of a new and divine life. By this indwelling of the Spirit, believers are united to Christ, and to one another, so that they form one body. This is the foundation of the communion of saints, making them one in faith, one in love, one in their inward life, and one in their hopes and final destiny."

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Theology Proper, Chapter VIII, The Office of the Holy Spirit, The Spirit's Office in the Work of Regeneration, Section 4.

The duty of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin, to reveal Christ, then to regenerate them and lead them to faith and repentance.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic1.pdf

Hodge goes further to say:

"Regeneration an Act of God.

Regeneration is an act of God. It is not simply referred to Him as its giver, and, in that sense, its author, as He is the giver of faith and of repentance. It is not an act which, by argument and persuasion, or by moral power, He induces the sinner to perform. But it is an act of which He is the agent. It is God who regenerates. The soul is regenerated. In this sense the soul is passive in regeneration, which (subjectively considered) is a change wrought in us, and not an act performed by us."

Regeneration an Act of God’s Power.

Regeneration is not only an act of God, but also an act of his almighty power. Agreeably to the express declarations of the Scriptures, it is so presented in the Symbols of the Protestant churches. If an act of omnipotence, it is certainly efficacious, for nothing can resist almighty power...The assertion that regeneration is an act of God’s omnipotence, is, and is intended to be, a denial that it is an act of moral suasion. It is an affirmation that it is “physical” in the old sense of that word, as opposed to moral; and that it is immediate, as​

opposed to mediate, or through or by the truth."

Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XV, Regeneration,
Regeneration an Act of God., Section 1.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf

Charles Hodge was also "hip" to the doctrine that faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit came only after regeneration:

"God, or the Spirit of God, testifies to the truth of the Scriptures and of the doctrines which they contain. This testimony, as has been seen, is partly external, consisting in prophecies and miracles, partly in the nature of the truths themselves as related to the intellectual and moral elements of the soul, and partly special and supernatural. Unrenewed men may feel the power of the two former kinds of testimony, and believe with a faith either merely intellectual and speculative, or with what may be called from its ground, a moral faith, which is only temporary. The spiritual form of testimony is confined to the regenerated. It is, of course, inscrutable. The operations of the Spirit do not reveal themselves in the consciousness otherwise than by their effects. We know that men are born of the Spirit, that the Spirit dwells in the people of God and continually influences their thoughts, feelings, and actions. But we know this only from the teaching of the Bible, not because we are conscious of his operations. “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” (John iii.8.)"

Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XVI, Faith, Section 4, Faith and Knowledge,
What is meant by the Testimony of the Spirit, p. 58.

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf

He goes further on to show:

Proof from Express Declarations of Scripture.

"That this is the Scriptural doctrine on the subject is plain from the express declarations of the Scriptures. Our Lord promised to send the Spirit for this very purpose. “He will reprove the world of sin,” especially of the sin of not believing in Christ; “and of righteousness,” that is, of his righteousness, — the rightfulness of his claims to be regarded and received as the Son of God, God manifest in the flesh, and the Saviour of the world, “and of judgment,” that is, of the final overthrow of the kingdom of darkness and triumph of the kingdom of light. (John xvi. 8.) Faith, therefore, is

always represented in Scripture as one of the fruits of the Spirit, as the gift of God, as the product of his energy (Colossians ii. 12)."​

Ibid, Vol. III, Soterology, Chapter XVI, Faith, Faith and Knowledge, ​

Proof from Express Declarations of Scripture., Section 1, p. 59

http://www.lgmarshall.org/Reformed/h...ystematic3.pdf

It is very clear from Hodge's Systematic Theology, that the work of the Holy Spirit follows as such:

The Holy Spirit comes upon the sinner, works from within to convict the heart of sin, regenerates the sinner, gives the sinner the faith to believe and repent, then indwells the sinner.

Only after regeneration, faith and repentance has taken place, does the Holy Spirit indwell the believer.

I have Hodge's Systematic Theology, both in the three volume set, and on cd.

And in Volume I, he addresses the aspect of God as a trinity. And as a trinity, he addresses how each one works. And in volume I he addresse the Holy Spirit's work in salvation.

We have the Holy Spirit in us already before we confess and repent. He is already dwelling within us. Now wait a minute, hear me out.

God, Jeremiah, and Jesus teach us that out of the heart proceeds everything that defiles us. God said that its thoughts were constantly evil from your youth up. Jeremiah says that it is decietful above all things, who could know it.

With such an evil heart within us, can any outside influence change us? No.

Scriptures say:

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." -John 16:8-11 (KJV)

The word "reprove" here also means to "convict." And who is the "he" here? Why the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit has to be working from within at the very "heart" of where sin lies. So in a very real sense, the Holy Spirit is already win us. But that is not all either.

One of the very best discourses on how the Holy Spirit works in us in bringing us to the point of salvation is found in Charles Hodge's "Systematic Theology."

And how does the Holy Spirit work in salvation?

1) Conviction

2) Regeneration

3) Faith is given and the exercise of faith and repentance

4) Indwelling after repentance.

There is no reason for us to believe that the Holy Spirit would come in us, convict us of our sins, regenerate us, give us faith to believe and lead us to repentance, leave, then only to come back a indwell us after baptism.

God Bless

Till all are one.