Topless Danes

[karisma]

This has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with what is truly right verses wrong. I'm sorry, but I'm sure God is not pleased with his beautiful creation being nude or topless on a public beach or by a public pool. Sorry... this is not about equality.. it could be about rebellion though against living a pure and holy life for Christ...

You're wrong. It has EVERYTHING to do with equality. This is a secular nation. We don't make laws based on the Bible. The OP was about whether women should be allowed to go topless. Yes, they should. Otherwise, it is discrimination.

 

[Nadiine]

Amen. I believe that we are called to represent Jesus in every area of our lives and at every moment during our lives and yes we are human, but when we do something that we know deep down inside is truly offensive to God because it is not holy or pure to reveal to whoever our intimate body... we need to repent of that sin and overcome that desire to show that part of ourselves. I believe that our intimate body parts were meant for only a husband and wife to share with only each other.

yep. this touches on an important issue: PRIDE. I believe that's at the core of this rebellion for this "equality" - it's gone past equality to showing off sexual objects that men are visually stimulated by - nevermind showing off 95% of her body.

Lets get real here, most of this is so they can be at the beach or poolsides, right? But what is the full extent of what they're wearing?
It's nothing more than a woman would wear with her spouse in the bedroom during intimacy; no top & maybe a skimpy pair of undies.
Bikini bottoms today are about equivalent to a pair of girls panties! (sometimes less w/ those thongs) -
this isn't ONLY about toplessness, it's seeing a woman completely naked except for a tiny little piece of underwear cloth on the bottoms.
they call this "modest"? Good Lord.
The only place that's considered the term: MODEST is a porn flick.
It's NOT godly and it's indecent. (I am FAR from prudish myself - I'm not into the Amish type stuff and think things can look 'sexy' without exposing parts

I agree, just because the world okays this way of thinking and being doesn't mean God okays it. There are so many scriptures that preach against this very thing.

We have a few yes... and technically, all we need is 1 to know what God says. 1 is all I need to read.

Or pap smears on public beaches... in front of everyone... I mean if the standards are going down... might as well let them go all the way down...

I about spit out my drink when I read that - I just took a sip lol

This has nothing to do with equality and everything to do with what is truly right verses wrong. I'm sorry, but I'm sure God is not pleased with his beautiful creation being nude or topless on a public beach or by a public pool. Sorry... this is not about equality.. it could be about rebellion though against living a pure and holy life for Christ

They slap a term of 'equality' on it becuz it's all they can come up with to support the lewd behaviour. The world always comes up with 'viable reasons' to live in the lifestyles they want.

But in the end, the world isn't our judge, God is, and He doesn't judge by the world's standards, He uses holy standards based on righteousness. I think people who focus on the world have no idea the holiness of God.
A verse comes to mind:
1 Peter 4:18
Now “ If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

 

[LJSGM]

You're wrong. It has EVERYTHING to do with equality. This is a secular nation. We don't make laws based on the Bible. The OP was about whether women should be allowed to go topless. Yes, they should. Otherwise, it is discrimination.

Men do not have sexual objects in the same place that women do. This is just silly talk now.

Done with this subject. Just annoying.

 

[Nadiine]

You're wrong. It has EVERYTHING to do with equality. This is a secular nation. We don't make laws based on the Bible. The OP was about whether women should be allowed to go topless. Yes, they should. Otherwise, it is discrimination.

THEN IF IT'S ABOUT EQUALITY, WHY NOT GO TO COURT DEMANDING MEN PUT THEIR SHIRTS ON?

Why look to MATCH his shirtlessness? See the problem??
That's why this IS about trying to show off nakedness. If women can't grasp that men's bodies are not identical and their chests aren't "sexual objects" that us women get sexually aroused by, then they're alot dumber than I'd expect

 

[karisma]

Men do not have sexual objects in the same place that women do. This is just silly talk now.

Done with this subject. Just annoying.

Actually they do. Men's nipples are just as sensitive and can be very arrousing to men. What is the difference between male and female breasts? Size? Some men have larger breasts than me and still walk around without a top (although I wish they wouldn't!) Females breasts have been overly sexualized because they are hidden.

 

[karisma]

THEN IF IT'S ABOUT EQUALITY, WHY NOT GO TO COURT DEMANDING MEN PUT THEIR SHIRTS ON?

Why look to MATCH his shirtlessness? See the problem??
That's why this IS about trying to show off nakedness. If women can't grasp that men's bodies are not identical and their chests aren't "sexual objects" that us women get sexually aroused by, then they're alot dumber than I'd expect

I guess I'm dumb now. Maybe you should actually see my previous post about attitudes.

Perhaps men don't want to have to wear shirts and that's why no one is pushing for that, although you are correct; that would be equality. And maybe women don't want to wear tops for the same reasons men don't. Althought that thought probably never crossed your mind.

 

[lucyclaire]

We are Christians and are called to holiness. Somehow, I just can't accept that it's okay in God's eyes for people to be on a beach or at a pool topless. I'm not a prude... and I'm very sensual and sexual with my husband and still... in my head, I just don't think it's right for holy men and women of God to reveal their intimate parts of their bodies. I just don't think it's right.

I realize that Europe and some other countries view this nudity thing differently, but like my mom use to say... just because your friends do it, doesn't mean you should...or if your friends jumped off a cliff, would you? Just because the world accepts this way of life doesn't make it right, nor does it mean that it is pleasing to God. Do you honestly believe that God would be pleased with women going topless in a public pool area or on a beach?

I'm sorry, but I just think this is another way in which this world has been corrupted morally speaking. I think there are some who accept this because they think in a reletivism way...

Why would God be displeased with anyone being topless on a beach in the South of French on beach full of topless women, anymore then he would be displeased if I wore a bikini or a t-shirt and shorts, it isn't a sexual thing. I go to that part of the world frequently my family live there. It isn't done to say look at me... if I was the only person on that beach that was topless while everyone else was clothed or in bathing suits, that would be immodest and attention seeking, if I did it with the intention of wanting to use my nudity to have sex then that would displease God, that I can understand. An arguement can be made about only showing your body to your husband but I could never marry that sort of man, the type to judges people by their sexuality and therefore will judge my family... I would rather be single.
And yes an arguement could be made the prostitution is legal in Amstedam and using prostitutes for sex is not going please God the difference being it is an actual sexual act with is impure and using someone for that purpose.
However I don't believe that God would condemn a system that works to give prostitutes better protection by legalising brothels. Prostitutes are a part of most major cities, how society looks after those women is important, Jesus treated prostitutes with love and compassion. The drug that is legal in Amstadam is hash, it can be harmful but it is less harmful than many prescription drugs and is a natural and affective pain killer.

My mother taught me to be a grown up, when it comes to the human body and she taught me not to be a philistine when it came to art and culture. I have also grown up in London which is multi-cultural and was taken to art galleries alot. Nobody told me, not to look at paintings of naked men and women, so I am not offended by it. If God wanted me to be different he would have given me different parents.

I am a pretty liberal person, I don't pretend not to be, it doesn't mean that I love Jesus any less, though the majority of people here well condemn me to hell even if I had never been topless on a beach because some will call it relativism. I rejected fundermental Christianity, when I found it turned my stomach... I would normally have ignored this thread because the arguement was so predictable, that America fundermentalists would be the ones that object, whilst the Europeans that have been to any beach have no problem with it.....c est la vie

 

[Nadiine]

Men do not have sexual objects in the same place that women do. This is just silly talk now.

Done with this subject. Just annoying.

It is silly! Honestly, I have to wonder if they don't realize it as well.

But this is the lengths they go to in order to promote their causes. Men don't give birth to babies either - do we scream "inequality"?
Men don't breast feed either - do we demand they have milk glands surgically implanted so they can breast feed the kids while mom's busy at the store? What's next?
We're anatomically different with different biology/hardwiring. The fact that they ignore those differences tells me alot.

They could demand males put on their shirts - they just would rather go naked in public. It's rebellion and pride as I see it.
Romans 1:18-32 spells out this process

 

[karisma]

It is silly! Honestly, I have to wonder if they don't realize it as well.

But this is the lengths they go to in order to promote their causes. Men don't give birth to babies either - do we scream "inequality"?
Men don't breast feed either - do we demand they have milk glands surgically implanted so they can breast feed the kids while mom's busy at the store? What's next?
We're anatomically different with different biology/hardwiring. The fact that they ignore those differences tells me alot.

They could demand males put on their shirts - they just would rather go naked in public. It's rebellion and pride as I see it.
Romans 1:18-32 spells out this process

Since you are choosing to ignore my long post to you, I am also bowing out of this thread.

I find it amusing that "modesty" is defined by the chick in the halter top in her avatar. Apparently modesty is defined by Nadiine.

Peace

 

[LJSGM]

Actually they do. Men's nipples are just as sensitive and can be very arrousing to men. What is the difference between male and female breasts? Size? Some men have larger breasts than me and still walk around without a top (although I wish they wouldn't!) Females breasts have been overly sexualized because they are hidden.

One more post

I agree, lets desexualize breasts, so that my husband isn't fascinated with mine anymore, nor will he take pleasure in them in the bedroom... just so that I can feel the air on my breasts(or show them off to other men)

Parts of the body being seen as sexual is a bad thing now? Not in the proper circumstances.

 

[Nadiine]

I guess I'm dumb now. Maybe you should actually see my previous post about attitudes.

Perhaps men don't want to have to wear shirts and that's why no one is pushing for that, although you are correct; that would be equality. And maybe women don't want to wear tops for the same reasons men don't. Althought that thought probably never crossed your mind.

perhaps they don't want to wear bottoms either... how do you argue against that?

The point of Paul's teaching on modesty is to draw the attn. AWAY from the outward appearance - the body. What do they want to do? Put it all right back on the body specifically and show it off in pride.

Not only that, we already have the confession of feeling "wierd" while your partner is seeing 1/2 naked women parading by.
That right there is called a "check in the spirit" - an inward conscience of something feeling wrong and awkward with public nudity the first few times experiencing it.

What does James tell us?
James 4:17
Therefore, to him who knows to do good
and does not do it, to him it is sin.

If YOU feel awkward or wrong, or wierd doing it, then it's a problem for YOU. It means YOU are not free to engage in it becuz it's sin for you. God isn't ok with it.

If they all jumped off a bridge with you jump with them too becuz it's their "culture"? Hindu's throw their babies off high balconies for groups of people to catch standing below; would you do that there becuz they do it?
How about female genitalia mutilation if you visted another country?

How about cannibalism elsewhere? I can offer lists. You've already proven by your comment what I suspected.

 

[karisma]

perhaps they don't want to wear bottoms either... how do you argue against that?

The point of Paul's teaching on modesty is to draw the attn. AWAY from the outward appearance - the body. What do they want to do? Put it all right back on the body specifically and show it off in pride.

Not only that, we already have the confession of feeling "wierd" while your partner is seeing 1/2 naked women parading by.
That right there is called a "check in the spirit" - an inward conscience of something feeling wrong and awkward with public nudity the first few times experiencing it.

What does James tell us?
James 4:17
Therefore, to him who knows to do good
and does not do it, to him it is sin.

If YOU feel awkward or wrong, or wierd doing it, then it's a problem for YOU. It means YOU are not free to engage in it becuz it's sin for you. God isn't ok with it.

If they all jumped off a bridge with you jump with them too becuz it's their "culture"? Hindu's throw their babies off high balconies for groups of people to catch standing below; would you do that there becuz they do it?
How about female genitalia mutilation if you visted another country?

How about cannibalism elsewhere? I can offer lists. You've already proven by your comment what I suspected.

I lied I'm back. READ AND ADDRESS POST 378 or we are going to go in circles forever. And please actually address my points without going off on some random, unrelated tangent otherwise this debate is pointless. I'm tired of repeating myself over and over.

 

[Nadiine]

One more post

I agree, lets desexualize breasts, so that my husband isn't fascinated with mine anymore, nor will he take pleasure in them in the bedroom... just so that I can feel the air on my breasts(or show them off to other men)

Parts of the body being seen as sexual is a bad thing now? Not in the proper circumstances.

I'm with you on all your posts. I'm about ready to pack up my luggage & head to some other pastures for rational dialogue as well.

This really IS silly when we will go to such lengths as to even deny biological, anatomical facts; which is WHY for centuries women have covered up their chests and bottoms in the first place.

We all know this, it's nothing new. All that's changed is the openness of depravity in today's immoral world. A sign of the times prophecied would come.
I wonder if people would be happy if our culture just went to Sodom & Gomorrah - that's where it's headed.

 

[karisma]

One more post

I agree, lets desexualize breasts, so that my husband isn't fascinated with mine anymore, nor will he take pleasure in them in the bedroom... just so that I can feel the air on my breasts(or show them off to other men)

Parts of the body being seen as sexual is a bad thing now? Not in the proper circumstances.

It's possible for breasts to be sexual in some contexts and not others. Like I mentioned, men's nipples are very sensitive and can be stimulating... and yet he can still walk around shirtless. And women's breasts can be sexual in some contexts (the bedroom) and not in others (breastfeeding).

They're multi-purpose!

And now, I am actually going to take a shower and go to bed.

 

[Nadiine]

I lied I'm back. READ AND ADDRESS POST 378 or we are going to go in circles forever. And please actually address my points without going off on some random, unrelated tangent otherwise this debate is pointless. I'm tired of repeating myself over and over.

I don't plan on going in any circles with you - I'm about done with this ridiculous thread.

When people are arguing the obvious facts of nature we already know, there's no point to continue - additionally as I see it, anything being discussed is a rehash from points already raised in prior pages.

Simply repeating points page after page isnt' my idea of good debate and you certainly haven't changed my mind any - I've actually been solidified in mine - esp. after reading your admission of how you felt while experiencing it the first time. And instead of doing what your conscience led, you went back to repeat it just so you could get accustomed to it so it wouldn't bother you.

I faced it with my man in Europe (see previous post). It was a bit weird at first but after a couple days neither he nor I saw it as a big deal.

It WAS a big deal to you at first, but after engaging in it, you were ok with it.

That speaks volumes and I don't even need to say anymore; it does it for me.

 

[Nadiine]

from post 378
Karisma:

You don't have a right NOT to see boobs. That's not a right. And if he can't control himself he should probably get professional help.

I don't have a right NOT to see boobs when I'm out in public?

If that's the case, then none of us have any right Not to see people's genitals in our faces either. In that case, everybody should be forced to have nudity anywhere and everywhere in public.

This is one of the most bizarre statements I've read in a long time (and I've seen plenty).

And since I read that you stated you smoked pot and find nothing wrong it it, I see no point in continuing w/ you further. The bible is clear on drug taking (pharmakia) as well.

But, hey, to many they don't care what it says anyways.

 

[D'Ann]

yep. this touches on an important issue: PRIDE. I believe that's at the core of this rebellion for this "equality" - it's gone past equality to showing off sexual objects that men are visually stimulated by - nevermind showing off 95% of her body.

Lets get real here, most of this is so they can be at the beach or poolsides, right? But what is the full extent of what they're wearing?
It's nothing more than a woman would wear with her spouse in the bedroom during intimacy; no top & maybe a skimpy pair of undies.
Bikini bottoms today are about equivalent to a pair of girls panties! (sometimes less w/ those thongs) -
this isn't ONLY about toplessness, it's seeing a woman completely naked except for a tiny little piece of underwear cloth on the bottoms.
they call this "modest"? Good Lord.
The only place that's considered the term: MODEST is a porn flick.
It's NOT godly and it's indecent. (I am FAR from prudish myself - I'm not into the Amish type stuff and think things can look 'sexy' without exposing parts


We have a few yes... and technically, all we need is 1 to know what God says. 1 is all I need to read.


I about spit out my drink when I read that - I just took a sip lol


They slap a term of 'equality' on it becuz it's all they can come up with to support the lewd behaviour. The world always comes up with 'viable reasons' to live in the lifestyles they want.

But in the end, the world isn't our judge, God is, and He doesn't judge by the world's standards, He uses holy standards based on righteousness. I think people who focus on the world have no idea the holiness of God.
A verse comes to mind:
1 Peter 4:18
Now “ If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

Amen and amen... also, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah come to mind as well.

Actually they do. Men's nipples are just as sensitive and can be very arrousing to men. What is the difference between male and female breasts? Size? Some men have larger breasts than me and still walk around without a top (although I wish they wouldn't!) Females breasts have been overly sexualized because they are hidden.

Actually, women breasts are sexualized because men are simple creatures and get turned on even when they think they see a breast... even the ones who are very good at self control... (sorry men, but you know it's true, you are simple creatures because that is how God made you in this way/area).

I guess I'm dumb now. Maybe you should actually see my previous post about attitudes.

Perhaps men don't want to have to wear shirts and that's why no one is pushing for that, although you are correct; that would be equality. And maybe women don't want to wear tops for the same reasons men don't. Althought that thought probably never crossed your mind.

But see, the point to me isn't really about what men want or what women want.. .the point to me is this... what does God want? Can you honestly and sincerely and deeply from your heart of hearts believe that it is pleasing to God for us to be publicly nude or half nude on a beach or by a pool? If God truly didn't have a problem with us being nude, why did Eve and Adam feel the need to cover up after they ate the forbidden fruit and heard God coming?

There is really no good reason for women or men to reveal their intimate parts in a public place...

Why would God be displeased with anyone being topless on a beach in the South of French on beach full of topless women, anymore then he would be displeased if I wore a bikini or a t-shirt and shorts, it isn't a sexual thing.

Because we are called to holiness. Do you honestly believe that it is holy to walk around on a public beach or a public pool half naked? I believe that God has called us to represent Christ... to be Christlike, I believe that because of this, we are called to a higher standard. We are not of this world even though we live in this world. Living in this world does not condone or allow us to take part of the world's way of doing things like this. Maybe for you and a few others, it's not about sex or being sexual, but there are others in this world... even in the South of France who may view this differently. France is known for being more promiscuious (sp?) than we are... or they use to be anyway, I'm not sure if that is still true though. Since when do we allow ourselves to follow in the foot steps of other countries like France? Shouldn't Christ be our influence?

I go to that part of the world frequently my family live there. It isn't done to say look at me... if I was the only person on that beach that was topless while everyone else was clothed or in bathing suits, that would be immodest and attention seeking, if I did it with the intention of wanting to use my nudity to have sex then that would displease God, that I can understand. An arguement can be made about only showing your body to your husband but I could never marry that sort of man, the type to judges people by their sexuality and therefore will judge my family... I would rather be single.

It's not about how men will judge us, it's how God will judge us. Our body is precious and beautiful and unique...it should be protected and sheltered and taken care of... and yes, we should save ourselves for our husbands... I know this is a difficult thing to do especially now a days and it's good that you agree with me on this.

(And for the record, a good man will never judge you based on your past. They will love you and cherish you no matter what your past might be, because that is true love that comes from Christ. ) We always should be able to love one another, forgive one another and by God's grace show kindness and mercy and compassion for one another.

And yes an arguement could be made the prostitution is legal in Amstedam and using prostitutes for sex is not going please God the difference being it is an actual sexual act with is impure and using someone for that purpose.

It's about being holy and pure... that is what we are called to. And if society okays topless nudity, then sooner or later it will okay complete nudity and sooner or later prostitution will be considered okay too... we must go beyond the laws here on earth and think about Christ and doing His will and living the life that He calls us to live... We must have a higher standard of values and morals than those who do not know Christ in this world... and it's not to judge them or put them down, but so that they can see that we are called to Christ and that we are called to a higher standard of values in Christ... we have to be a witness in every area of our lives and being topless at any beach in any part of the world does not show Christ in us. How can the light of Jesus shine through us if we are no different than others in this world who do not know Christ as their Lord and Savior.

However I don't believe that God would condemn a system that works to give prostitutes better protection by legalising brothels. Prostitutes are a part of most major cities, how society looks after those women is important, Jesus treated prostitutes with love and compassion. The drug that is legal in Amstadam is hash, it can be harmful but it is less harmful than many prescription drugs and is a natural and affective pain killer.

And we also should treat prostitutes and everyone including fellow Christians with love and respect and kindness and charity... but that being said, we should never condone their life style or anyone's sinful life styles. We are not to ignore the wrongs of others or ourselves. 2 wrongs never make a right.

My mother taught me to be a grown up, when it comes to the human body and she taught me not to be a philistine when it came to art and culture. I have also grown up in London which is multi-cultural and was taken to art galleries alot. Nobody told me, not to look at paintings of naked men and women, so I am not offended by it. If God wanted me to be different he would have given me different parents.

I love and appreciate many different kinds of art work... again this is not about art work or growing up... it's about being Christ like... it's about pleasing God and living our lives in a pure and holy way.. in all that we do and say and in how we treat others and in how we represent Christ. You are a good person and you have a good heart... I just think that this world has influence you to think it's okay to show intimate parts of your body. That doesn't mean you are a bad person, it means that just like me and everyone else here... we are human and still growing and learning... and we all have our sins to overcome and sometimes, we do need to re-evaluate what kind of lives we live... and ask ourselves questions, like... is this pleasing to God? When I meet God some day face to face... will He say well done my faithful and obedient daughter? Isn't our goal here on earth to be like Christ? To be a witness for Him.

I am a pretty liberal person, I don't pretend not to be, it doesn't mean that I love Jesus any less, though the majority of people here well condemn me to hell even if I had never been topless on a beach because some will call it relativism. I rejected fundermental Christianity, when I found it turned my stomach... I would normally have ignored this thread because the arguement was so predictable, that America fundermentalists would be the ones that object, whilst the Europeans that have been to any beach have no problem with it.....c est la vie

None of us can play God and none of us can or should condemn anyone to hell. I don't believe that you are going to hell... I just think this world has badly influence you as it once had me... liberal or conservatism... those are just words... what I care about is at the end of the race here on earth, what will God say to us? Reletivism as well as consumerism are the two most hurtful things right now in this world and all of us in one way or another are effected by these two ways of thinking... it's important to recognize that and try to overcome that way of thinking.

God's Peace

 

[karisma]

from post 378
Karisma:
I don't have a right NOT to see boobs when I'm out in public?

If that's the case, then none of us have any right Not to see people's genitals in our faces either. In that case, everybody should be forced to have nudity anywhere and everywhere in public.

This is one of the most bizarre statements I've read in a long time (and I've seen plenty).

And since I read that you stated you smoked pot and find nothing wrong it it, I see no point in continuing w/ you further. The bible is clear on drug taking (pharmakia) as well.

But, hey, to many they don't care what it says anyways.

She still ignores my post...

~VICTORIOUS!!!~

 

[LightHorseman]

She still ignores my post...

~VICTORIOUS!!!~

Are people REALLY shoving either boobs or genitals in Nadiine's face?

Interesting neighbourhood.

 

[Iskra]

Well again, what others do in other cultures does NOT make it "RIGHT", does it?
Unless street drugs become "right" becuz Amsterdam legalizes them & it "works for them" over there....
/.../
Toplessness is not "Modesty"; it's not even modest for males as a matter of fact.
Modesty is to be clothed in a manner that isn't drawing attn. to the body itself - as we've said earlier, even people wearing burlap sacks can be alluring with body gestures, eye contact, speech/sexual inuendo, etc.
/../
And if the men aren't aroused, then that pretty much tells me that they've gotten SO accustomed to open nudity, that they're desensitized to normal arousal - and just like pornography, it takes more and more graphic visualization for stimulation.
Nudity is still wrong and maybe they SHOULD be turned on, but the toplessness is dulling their sensitivity.

Lastly, laying out today is beyond dangerous - if these sunworshippers are so fond of stripping in the sun, they can enjoy their leatherized skin in the near future and I hope they're getting regular check ups at the dermatologist for skin melanoma's.

For the first, what in the world has drug use to do with sunbathing? You talk about apples and oranges, well here they are. And also (though it is OT) why always Amsterdam? Coffeeshops exist in all of Netherlands.

As far as I know the Bible never defines axactly what cothes are modest. So modesty is in other words dressing in a way that is not sexually provocative. What is sexually provocative varies in different cultures, that is a fact.

Why do you judge what is right and not? Are you, from an american anglo-saxon cultural point of view the judge of the world? The Bible doesn't say whether or not all people all over the world in all contexts are supposed to loose their senses over a pair of boobs, or does it?