Topless Danes

[Iskra]

Well it appears you've completely missed the point. Let me spell it out again.
Since people here are pointing to other cultures that go topless and claiming that we should all be able to do the same, then they are deciding morality (right and wrong) BASED ON WHAT OTHERS DO IN THEIR CULTURES - rather than basing it on God's standard of right and wrong.

So if a culture legalizes street drugs, and you judge what's moral by what other cultures are doing (and it seems not to harm anyone & work just fine for them), then legalizing street drugs must be moral.

I do understand that,but for me it is a very long shot to associate toplessness with druguse.

As a reminder, this IS a Christian discussion section (I often have to remind myself of that when reading posts around here)- so some of us do include God's standards & teachings.

K, this goes to what we already covered pages ago - yes it DOES define modest by way of cultural example at the time Paul wrote the instruction to the church and by the other written statements on nudity that appear in scripture.

Paul primary talked about his own time to people of his own time. You don't live in the first century so you shouldn't read everything litterally. Paul talked about the value of modesty, and everyone here agrees with him. The thing is just that what was modest in the lands around the mediterranian isn't necessary what defines modesty in all countries in all times. It certainly isn't what defines modesty in southern Scandinavia in the 21:st century. And what is modesty in your part of North America isn't what defines modesty in the rest of the world. If Paul meant that one certain clothing is the definition then he should have written it, shouldn't he? He could have written long sleved shirt, trouser and socks, leather shoes and a hat, but e didn't.

WERE THEY CUSTIMARILY TOPLESS/NUDE? No they were not. They were covered up modestly which sets the standard
for what is modest. That means it doesn't include a 1/2 naked torso in public.
The problem is in reasoning. Taking this to "how much can we undress" instead of "how much clothing should we cover up with".
That's where this discussion goes terribly wrong and why the whole extreme "burqa" argument fails.
Using 1 extreme of people's hyper-modesty never warrents the complete opposite extreme of stripping naked. One doesn't warrent the other.

Since when did Paul state or imply that modesty meant going 1/2 nude and women to bear their breasts?
They did not dress that way - neither did the OT Jews.

Paul never said that naked breasts are modest, but he didn't say the opposite either. It all depends on culture and what the partaking persons read in to it, in a prudish society 1/2 naked bodies are highly imodest, but in a society more used to nakedess it isn't. Christianity isn't about laws just for the sake of it, the laws have a reason. Paul talked about modesty for the reason to save people from unpure thoughts that would lead away from God. If no such unpure thoughts come from halfnakedness then it isn't imodest.

I'd start by asking, why DON'T you judge what is right and not?! We're called to discern good and evil and be on guard. We don't just 'shut down' and go on auto pilot as Christians & take holidays & go with the flow of culture.
God tells us that we're in spiritual battle every single day with an enemy seeking to wipe us out along with our faith.

That seems to be the problem I'm seeing today; people's casual attitudes towards faith and God. I personally find it extremely apathetic.

I do judge, but I try to base it on the Bible and my sense rather than on my current culture and prejudice. Besides I try to read the Bible to understand what is being said and what is mean litteral, rather than taking all of it litterally. If it was meant to be read litterally on everything then it would be clearer, wouldn't it? (But that is a whole other topi)

But... who's "losing their senses over a pair of boobs"? sorry I don't get your point here?.

I meant that you assume that men will loose their senses when they see a pair on the beach.

And besides, you haven't answered my question in posts 401 and 402.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Would you enjoy visiting a nude retirement center or nude day care center?

I wasn't aware that any such establishments existed... Are they at least in a warm climate?

 

[The Lady Kate]

I wonder why one could believe the commandment of Christ yet not believe the rest ... if the bible isnt the standard of anything for a christian how would they know how or what makes them a christian?

I would think Christ would know... and His opinion is the only one that matters.

 

[drstevej]

I wasn't aware that any such establishments existed... Are they at least in a warm climate?

I did not see an answer in your reply.

 

[drstevej]

Anybody up for going on a tour a nude beach where obesity is a requirement (Club Flab)?

 

[Angel4Truth]

I would think Christ would know... and His opinion is the only one that matters.

Where is it that one reads that opinion?

 

[drstevej]

Depends on whether you are referring to

Biblical Jesus
or
Post Modern Jesus

 

[LightHorseman]

I wonder why one could believe the commandment of Christ yet not believe the rest ... if the bible isnt the standard of anything for a christian how would they know how or what makes them a christian?

Because I believe that Christ was God. I don't believe that Paul, or any of the alleged old testament authors with all their seld contradictory gobledegook were. Following Christ is easy if you let go of all that ridiculous, illogical, pointless legalist, literalist minutiae, stop worrying about what others do and worry about your own salvation and good works. Try it some time. Do unto others... thats the most important bit of the whole thing. Obsessing over whether or not bare boobs is sin or not is nothing but a distraction from the real message of the Bible.

Judge not yet ye be judged by the same measure you use - people conveiniently leave that part off - if the word of God is the measure being used (instead of ones own thoughts) there isnt a problem is there since its Gods measure we will be judged by when we stand before Him.

Is that the same God's measure that commands that women shall not attempt to teach men? I wonder

(1 Timothy 2:11,12)

 

[Iskra]

Not to be rude, but maybe the discussion on whether the Bible is the prime source for knowledge about God is suitable for another thread.

 

[Nadiine]

Can you tell me where exactly I said something that's unreasonable?

I truly don't have it in me to go back thru pages and pages of this thread to go find them and bring them up here again.
What I took issue with, I pointed out in my replies to you before. So you can consider whatever I countered of your "reasoning" I didn't think was a good argument/reasoning.
That's not to be rude or snotty, I just honestly don't have the time or the will to rummage thru all that back there & rehash points. =)

It is. Some people (most) don't like to be naked. But some other people do. That's why it's a personal preference.

Ok this statement here is significant and important. What you're describing here is human hardwiring by majority which is exactly what I've stated before in that all humans have an innate knowledge of right and wrong and it STARTED at the fall with Adam & Eve.
(after they sinned, they immediately gained knowledge of good and evil/right and wrong. And due to that, they knew they were "naked", covered up and hid themselves in guilt).
Open nudity was no longer "innocent" at the fall with the knowledge they attained.

The MAJORITY cover up becuz that is what the fall brought in. And all of us who come after Adam & Eve have the same nature and guilty conscience we feel in doing what's wrong.
The issue becomes rebellion of what we do feel inwardly. We KNOW something's not right becuz we feel it, but we do it anyways.

Karisma spelled this right out by her experience with this very thing. She FELT "wierd" - but instead of heeding what she felt in her conscience, she continued to participate in it until it stopped feeling wierd & she could feel comfortable with it.

But hear me out - the majority are who show you what is natural - NOT THE MINORITY. The majority of populous wear clothes and prefer to wear clothes in all public places. It's as hardwired in all of us as sexual desires are. It's just there & we can't help it.
Romans 1 explains the process of depravity as people continue to rebel against what they naturally know - God turns them over to their sin to do what they want AND ALLOW THEM TO ENJOY THAT REBELLION. They stop feeling guilt about it & continue in it.

The MAJORITY of population doesn't get sexually turned on by a little 6 year old child - but a minority does. That tells you that it's not natural for adults to lust after children.
Do we change laws pedophile laws becuz a minority find it enjoyable & want to do that?
Homosexuals are still a VERY small percentage of population - they say less than 4% if I remember correctly?

Also, You cannot please everybody by making everything morally lawful - it's impossible. When they made indoor non smoking laws, they just infringed on the freedom, happiness and rights of the smokers who are now disenfranchised and discriminated against for their habit.
Is that ok? (& as a former smoker myself, it makes me furious that they have picked out smokers to overtax and restrict to the level they have).

No matter which side of the fence you're on, smokers are discriminated against - and that's the way it goes.
You can't please everyone - becuz people ARE different and the minute one side gets their way, the others are unhappy and freedoms are restricted.

I have just as much right NOT to have 1/2 naked women parading around me & my spouse at a poolside resort as you would say they have TO go topless. If I had kids, I'd tell you that I also have the RIGHT to raise my own children without them seeing nude women at the hotel pool or at the beach when I take them there for a fun day out.
Do I have no rights to enjoy the pool with my husband who is sexually stimulated by breasts? Or take my children with us who have to be exposed to their nudity? Think about that. (that is the selfishness of this whole thing - they are thinking of SELF, not others).

Why? That would be if humans were clones. Since people aren't clones, they have different personal preferences.

No one has said we have to all be the same - but in the name of being "unique", where do you draw the line in who is restricted?

This to me is more about rebellion to conservative tradition than it is "personal preferences". Becuz we all have preferences, why do nudists preferences nullify or trump mine?

Originally Posted by Nadiine

Instead, historically PEOPLE WORE CLOTHING from this time on in the bible and in secular cultures​

​

Yes... so what?

It goes to majority as stated above. It is significant to this argument, AND esp. to what Paul would include in his meaning of "MODEST" at the time of his instruction to Christians.
Modest would not mean or include "partial or full nudity" by cultural example alone.

So, everyone knows right or wrong, but being clothed or naked is a personal preference, that means that it's not a matter of right or wrong, but simply a matter of personal taste.

?? I'm baffled how you arrive at this. Since "personal taste" falls into 2 categories, moral or immoral (right or wrong)

How does that harm anyone?

Anything going against what is RIGHT and commanded by God HARMS everyone in different ways: seen or unseen.
"recognized" harm has already been addressed - and if you want to buy into that farse, then don't ever correct your children when they disobey whatever you say becuz if they can't see any harm from it, then they have every right to do what they please instead!

It harms in many ways - some not as obvious. But lack of seeing harm doesn't mean there is none! That can occur in people who are in rebellion to God, or unsaved entirely - many won't see types of harm. Worse, people DO see harm and ignore it anyways.

But it harms in that it opens the door to the next boundary people will push. Yes, the slippery slope. It's just a fact of human nature to push barriers.
Outside of sin giving satan "strongholds" to binding us, God calls sin bondage - not FREEDOM.
Also, biblically, Jesus taught that [certain] sins caused physical harm.

John 5:14
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple,
and said to him, “See, you have been made well.
Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”

(physical harm is also seen in taking communion in a wrong manner - all spiritual laws)

As I said before, the world is full of many different worldviews, and it's a fact. Your worldview is one of them.

Yes it is, and some of you act as if mine/ours doesn't seem to count becuz it's contrary to what you prefer... it's "traditional" - God forbid. But I have equal right as anyone else for the reasons I list which are very legitimate.

You can even see it on CF... many different people with many different worldviews. And I don't see how the fact that this is the Christian section makes it any different...

And as I've stated repeatedly - Christian icons mean nothing here.
FRUIT is what I look at - and alot if it I see I view as fruit of another spirit becuz it's contrary to most of God's obvious teachings.
(even the secular know what biblical standards & teachings are).

But every person is different and unique. It's not true that there are only two kinds of people in the world and they are opposed to each other.

Well you can argue God on that one - He uses "sheep and goats" to categorize the two. Lost and born again. That doesn't remove uniqueness of anyone - it describes the spiritual condition of 2 opposing camps. In God's perspective there are only the 2 and they both operate in their spiritual natures.

Morality is not what decides lost or saved - there are many "moral" atheists. Salvation hinges on the blood of Christ and one's faith in the true God.

It's true that there are people who don't care about others, and there are people who try to be good towards others, but that has nothing to do with religious beliefs.

Define what's "good"! According to whom? You consider it "good" to subject me and my husband (& family/kids if I had them) to open nudity from female strangers when I'm trying to have a nice day by the pool.
I dont' define that as GOOD whatsoever, I find it selfish, rude, uncaring and arrogant to impose upon me.

Actually it has everything to do w/ religious beliefs; mainly what truth of God is which should set our standards. Becuz GOD IS LOVE, and it's God's laws that encompass true love - love of self, others & God.

Instead, you want to redefine love in your fallen, corrupted humanity MINUS God's written standards and tell me that's "love" instead. Sorry, I'm not buying the product.

God set up the moral standards becuz they define what true love is - they honour & respect you, all others and God at the same time.
THAT IS PURE LOVE.

1 Cor 13
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;

 

[drstevej]

Following Christ is easy if you let go of all that ridiculous, illogical, pointless legalist, literalist minutiae, stop worrying about what others do and worry about your own salvation and good works.

How are ya doing on this command of Christ?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[The Lady Kate]

I did not see an answer in your reply.

Then the answer is no... seeing as how I am neither a senior citizen nor a parent, I would have no need to go to either place, would I?

 

[The Lady Kate]

Where is it that one reads that opinion?

In a heart touched by the Holy Spirit? Works for me.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Because I believe that Christ was God. I don't believe that Paul, or any of the alleged old testament authors with all their seld contradictory gobledegook were. Following Christ is easy if you let go of all that ridiculous, illogical, pointless legalist, literalist minutiae, stop worrying about what others do and worry about your own salvation and good works. Try it some time. Do unto others... thats the most important bit of the whole thing. Obsessing over whether or not bare boobs is sin or not is nothing but a distraction from the real message of the Bible.

Since you believe the words of Christ in the bible then you may want to note this part when refering to the ot prophets who foretold Him:

Luke 16:31 "But he said to him, `If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' ''

Is that the same God's measure that commands that women shall not attempt to teach men? I wonder

(1 Timothy 2:11,12)

The women at the time were students of the scripture - werent equipped to teach them at that point - weve been over this before but keep tossing the straw.

At any rate you wanted Jesus words only and I have given them to you. God (which includes Jesus) gave all the commandments and the scriptures (which Jesus also defined from His own recorded words to be genesis to 2 chroncles which was the hebrew division and i can get that verse for you also so i hope you listen to His words on what they are. Jesus didnt say "it was written" more than 100 times because He didnt want to give weight to His past words through His prophets.

 

[The Lady Kate]

Depends on whether you are referring to

Biblical Jesus
or
Post Modern Jesus

Living as we are in a Post Modern world, which would be the wiser choice?

 

[The Lady Kate]

How are ya doing on this command of Christ?

Utterly failed but completely forgiven... how about you?

 

[Angel4Truth]

In a heart touched by the Holy Spirit? Works for me.

I see , so without any bible and without any witness from anyone about Jesus - you knew who he was and He told you himself what His commandment was- is that right?

 

[drstevej]

Living as we are in a Post Modern world, which would be the wiser choice?

Post Modern Jesus is a idol.

 

[Nadiine]

Because I believe that Christ was God. I don't believe that Paul, or any of the alleged old testament authors with all their seld contradictory gobledegook were. Following Christ is easy if you let go of all that ridiculous, illogical, pointless legalist, literalist minutiae, stop worrying about what others do and worry about your own salvation and good works. Try it some time. Do unto others... thats the most important bit of the whole thing. Obsessing over whether or not bare boobs is sin or not is nothing but a distraction from the real message of the Bible.


Is that the same God's measure that commands that women shall not attempt to teach men? I wonder

(1 Timothy 2:11,12)

This shows me a complete lack of proper study and understanding of scripture in general and in detail. There ARE women teachers - debate is not holding an authoratative formal teaching position in the church either. Misuse of that passage just to start with which shows me you lack understanding.

I can also turn this around to say if you focused on the 'REAL' message of the Bible (provided that I believed you actually knew what it was since you reject scripture), then you wouldn't be "distracted" to be here promoting baring women's boobs either.
So then why are YOU here?

You don't believe Paul, yet you believe grace and liberty in CHrist WHICH ONLY PAUL BROUGHT in the NT in any detail along with how salvation works and what changed from law... I love the selective cherry picking. (anything negative, harsh or restrictive is "false") lol

YOU decide what's true in the Bible - and what do YOU have to base that on? Opinion? Ultimately you have nothing to base your faith or truth on but your own personal guesswork. No foundation other than to say "I think this" - but that's par for the course in postmodern culture.

 

[Nadiine]

I see , so without any bible and without any witness from anyone about Jesus - you knew who he was and He told you himself what His commandment was- is that right?

this is what this all boils down to, which we all knew is the spiritual source of the conflict. This is the basic division in spirit.

The god being defined is not the god I ascribe to - the worldviews differ drastically becuz of that. I'll continue to stand where I'm at.
Biblically, I'm being taught here that the ways of the world are right and that I decide in myself what is moral when my Bible says otherwise.
So.... no thanks.