Arminianism and Calvinism. Why only two options?

[ScottBot]

I told you what grace was. Care to refute it?

I already did.

 

[Ormly]

I already did.

You only parroted something you don't understand for yourself. You need to own whatever it is you say you understand.

 

[ScottBot]

You only parroted something you don't understand for yourself. You need to own whatever it is you say you understand.

And you do. And where did you get your doctorate in Theology from?

 

[Ormly]

And you do. And where did you get your doctorate in Theology from?

Is theology what this is all about? I didn't realize that? I thought it was truth, revelational truth.

 

[ScottBot]

Is theology what this is all about? I didn't realize that? I thought it was truth, revelational truth.

Theology...from the Greek theos = God, ologia = the study of.

thus Theology is the study of God.

 

[GenemZ]

[/font][/size]

WAIT ONE!! The specifics of who was being addressed notwithstanding, it reads that they "turned asided". Turned aside from what???

John 6:44 (New International Version)​

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." ​

​

​

Turned aside from God's drawing them to Himself.

Romans 1:18-19 (Amplified Bible)
For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative.


For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them."​

Men are always free to reject the drawing of God. Romans 1:18-19, is a prime example of men rejecting God's drawing at its earliest level. Even those who have believed in Christ, are always free to reject God's will for their lives!


Fight it if you wish.



In Christ, GeneZ



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[Ormly]

[

quote=genez;43864798]

John 6:44 (New International Version)​

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." ​

​

​

You haven't addressed this passage. I would ask that you stop cherry picking just to prove a point you can't make and stay with context that is a more complete message:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 12:32 (KJV)

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6 (KJV)


"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
Revelation 22:17 (KJV)

Turned aside from God's drawing them to Himself.

No. This is OT stuff dealing with a rebellious people; people who were God's people who turned aside to unfaithfulness and rebellion.

<B>

Romans 1:18-19 (Amplified Bible)​

For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative.​

For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them."​

</B>



​

I am a ware of all that.

Men are always free to reject the drawing of God. Romans 1:18-19, is a prime example of men rejecting God's drawing at its earliest level. Even those who have believed in Christ, are always free to reject God's will for their lives!

Fight it if you wish.

It is not a question of fighting anything. I believe also that men have a freewill; are free to "quench" the Spirit after they are born again. Perhaps thats what you should be speaking of given your incomplete presentation of the drawing of God.

 

[GenemZ]

I told you what grace was. Care to refute it?

Grace is a gift from God. Its GIVEN to us.

Romans 12:6a (New International Version)
"We have different gifts, according to the grace given us."





1 Corinthians 1:4 (New International Version)
"I always thank God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus."





Ephesians 4:7 (New International Version)
"But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it."​

.

 

[GenemZ]

[
You haven't addressed this passage. I would ask that you stop cherry picking just to prove a point you can't make and stay with context that is a more complete message:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 12:32 (KJV)

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:6 (KJV)


"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
Revelation 22:17 (KJV)

Coming to Jesus, is the finalized stage of the Drawing of the Father.

John 6:44 (New International Version)
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
​

No one came come to KNOW the Father except through Jesus!

John 1:18 (New International Version)
"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known."
​

All that we can know about the Father? Must all come to us through Christ! For Christ is God's means to make himself known to man. We can not come to the Father, except through Him.


The Father's drawing us is not a conscious act on our part. If we can be fully drawn, we find ourselves believing in Christ, and then we begin to put it all together. The Father's drawing us is not something we are consciously aware of. We are only brought to consciousness when Christ is finally presented. If he's to be presented...







In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Ormly]

Coming to Jesus, is the finalized stage of the Drawing of the Father.

John 6:44 (New International Version)​

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."​

​

No one came come to KNOW the Father except through Jesus!

John 1:18 (New International Version)​

"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known."​

​

All that we can know about the Father? Must all come to us through Christ! For Christ is God's means to make himself known to man. We can not come to the Father, except through Him.


The Father's drawing us is not a conscious act on our part. If we can be fully drawn, we find ourselves believing in Christ, and then we begin to put it all together. The Father's drawing us is not something we are consciously aware of. We are only brought to consciousness when Christ is finally presented. If he's to be presented...

In Christ, GeneZ

Now you are making sense; making necessary distinctions; differenciating between the unsaved and the new born in Christ. You might, however want to clarify what "shape" the drawing of God takes when quoting that scripture. It is not the same for everyone.

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 12:32 (KJV)

 

[GenemZ]

Now you are making sense; making necessary distinctions; differenciating between the unsaved and the new born in Christ. You might, however want to clarify what "shape" the drawing of God takes when quoting that scripture. It is not the same for everyone.

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 12:32 (KJV)

Interesting.... This is another notch in the belt for the Deity of Christ.

Christ is now doing the work of Deity that the Father performed while the Lord had to function as a man. Its now the Lord who draws all men. But, that could not take place until after he ascended and returned to his function as Deity!

John 12:32 (NASB)
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."


​

He was lifted up!

Acts 1:9-11 (New International Version)
"After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."





.​

 

[Ormly]

Interesting.... This is another notch in the belt for the Deity of Christ.

Christ is now doing the work of Deity that the Father performed while the Lord had to function as a man. Its now the Lord who draws all men. But, that could not take place until after he ascended and returned to his function as Deity!

John 12:32 (NASB)​

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."​

​

He was lifted up!

Acts 1:9-11 (New International Version)​

"After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. ​

They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.".​

​

Exactly! What other way can it be taken that when He is lifted up He will draw all men unto Himself?

 

[sawdust]

The Father's drawing us is not a conscious act on our part. The Father's drawing us is not something we are consciously aware of.

I still have a problem with this. Are you sure we can not be aware of the Father reaching out for us until we reach Christ? I don't mean we understand why or for what reason He draws us, just an awareness He is doing something for His own good reasons.

peace

 

[nobdysfool]

I still have a problem with this. Are you sure we can not be aware of the Father reaching out for us until we reach Christ? I don't mean we understand why or for what reason He draws us, just an awareness He is doing something for His own good reasons.

peace

Why would that be problematic? Cannot God do that which He wills with His Creation, which includes mankind?

Or doe He have to have man's permission on some level before He can then draw them to Himself?

There are lots of things going on around us that we have no knowledge or awareness of, that affects us in many ways. Please re-think the basis of your question.

 

[GenemZ]

I still have a problem with this. Are you sure we can not be aware of the Father reaching out for us until we reach Christ? I don't mean we understand why or for what reason He draws us, just an awareness He is doing something for His own good reasons.

peace

We can not define it for what it is. We try to rationalize it.

I had a strong experience with what man would classify as deju veau. I could not consciously know what it was. It was mystifying and baffling.

But, what God was revealing to me was that there is a reality beyond what we know as humans. That God knows our every action before it happens.

Did I consciously define this as God drawing me to Himself? No. But, it sure shot down my idea that what I thought life is; only what we can see, feel, and touch.

I was being drawn in by the process. That of God revealing to me his nature without knowing it was anyone doing the revealing.

I am sure not everyone has the same experiences. The process is not complete until we see Christ before us. We may wonder about there being a God. We may even rationalize that something was God, but at the same time not hold a true belief in God. We may think...

"Well ... this experience I just had is what the ancients attributed to there being a God. But, I personally, with my advanced thinking to their's , do not know for certain God exists. It was just their way of dealing with it!"


That is what can happen during the drawing by God. Men are still free to find reason to reject it. That is the beauty of God keeping intact man's volition during the drawing. Those who wish not to believe, are free not to.

Those rejecting, God will confront with various believer's testimonies. That's when the rubber hits the road. The suffering a believer must face at times from unbelievers, is in God's last stages of attempting to keep the unbeliever from the Lake of Fire.



Grace and peace, GeneZ




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[GenemZ]

I still have a problem with this. Are you sure we can not be aware of the Father reaching out for us until we reach Christ? I don't mean we understand why or for what reason He draws us, just an awareness He is doing something for His own good reasons.

peace

If you are conscious? Then you became a believer at some point and did not know it. You are being drawn into becoming aware that you have been saved.

Being told Jesus died on the cross for your sins? And, you accepted it? You were saved without any awareness that there is a salvation to be had.

"When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."


​

Many are saved as children and were in ignorance of what the Bible tells us our salvation brings. God must draw these souls into the knowledge of their salvation they possess. These can know God is drawing them.

It appears that many of this type think they were first saved when they were older. But, in reality, were saved before they had any understanding given them about salvation.

That is why in the United States certain atheistic organizations do not want public displays at Christmas time. For the Devil knows children will get saved by simply believing in Christ. Its by grace through faith (believing)... not works.


Grace and peace, GeneZ



.
​

 

[Ormly]

I still have a problem with this. Are you sure we can not be aware of the Father reaching out for us until we reach Christ? I don't mean we understand why or for what reason He draws us, just an awareness He is doing something for His own good reasons.

peace

Ever hear of situations and circumstances? The Bible declares that a man may order his steps but God will direct his path. If we believe God foreknows who is His and who isn't, the path will either to life or to death. The man will know because at the end, he will either call on God or curse Him.

 

[sawdust]

If you are conscious? Then you became a believer at some point and did not know it. You are being drawn into becoming aware that you have been saved.

I have always believed in God. This God.

"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known." Jn.1:18

The One and Only has been before me ever since I can remember but I had no idea who He was until I read the Bible. Through Moses, David and the prophets I came to learn he was the God of Israel.

Being told Jesus died on the cross for your sins? And, you accepted it? You were saved without any awareness that there is a salvation to be had.

This I didn't believe. I wanted to but I couldn't. I believed Christ died because of sin but not for sin and I certainly didn't believe He rose from the dead.

My biggest hurdle was the Christ in the Gospels was a man and a man cannot be God. That was always clear to my mind from the account of Eve before the tree. Yet this man I saw in the scripture was exactly like God.

Like I said, I wanted all that was said about Jesus (in the Word) to be true. I wanted it desparately so, because I understood enough to realise it wasn't just my life at stake here. If He wasn't the Saviour? The whole creation was in trouble. But I could not reconcile the fact that Jesus was a man and a man cannot be God and only God can save.

Please understand I am not trying to prove you wrong. I am simply trying to understand what I experienced in the context of what you have said.

The fact remains I was consciously aware of God, (the One and Only) always at work in my life. Based on what you have said that would mean I have been saved as long as I can remember.

Now I don't have a problem with that except you have also said that if someone told me about Jesus and I accepted it, I would be saved. Trouble is, when I did read about Jesus as being the Saviour, I didn't believe it.

So, at what point was I saved?

If I was saved from the start, how could I reject Jesus as Saviour and be saved?

If, on the other hand, I was saved on the day I believed Jesus died for my sin and rose from the dead, how could I be consciously aware of God working in my life with a purpose in mind prior to that.

Do you see the dilemma my mind is presented with?

I am simply trying to reconcile this according to the word of God. At this stage I can't. I must have information missing or I am misunderstanding the info I already have.

If you can help? I appreciate it. If not? No biggy. One day I will know as I have been known.

peace

 

[GenemZ]

I have always believed in God. This God.

"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known." Jn.1:18

The One and Only has been before me ever since I can remember but I had no idea who He was until I read the Bible. Through Moses, David and the prophets I came to learn he was the God of Israel.



This I didn't believe. I wanted to but I couldn't. I believed Christ died because of sin but not for sin and I certainly didn't believe He rose from the dead.

All I believed was that Jesus was a man that loved God so much, that he refused to sin, and that he was willing to die for our sins. Period.

If you told me he was God at that time, I would have probably thought you were nuts.

Being brought up a Jew I had no notion of the Deity of Christ, etc. His being raised from the dead was not even an issue on my mind. I simply believed what I told you. BAMMM! God saved me.


Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[DeaconDean]

Grace is not a gift, salvation is and it is by the overflowing of the Nature of God in physical form now made Spiritual; Jesus Christ.

Now here is where you are dead wrong!

According to the Greek, Eph. 2:8 reads:

"th gar cariti este seswsmenoi dia pistewV: kai touto ouk ex umwn, qeou to dwron:"

Three words in this text we need to look at:

cariti-chariti, "grace, graciously bestowed divine endowment or influence"

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendriclson Pub., Peabody, Mass., 01962, cariti, p. 436-7.

In the context of Eph. 2:5, we are told that God's grace is specifically a "free favor, free gift, grace. Jn. 1:14, 16-17; Rom. 4:4, 16; 11:5-6; Eph. 2:5, 8; 1 Pet. 3:7" (ibid)

pistewV- pisteos, "faith, belief, firm persuasion, 2Cor. 5:7; Heb. 11:1; assurance, firm conviction, Rom. 14:23; groung of belief. guarantee, assurance, Acts 17:31; good faith, honesty, integrity, Mt. 23:23; Gal. 5:22; Titus 2:10; faithfulness, truthfulness, Rom. 3:3; in the NT faith in God and Christ, Mt. 8:10; Acts 3:16, et. al. freq.;"(ibid, p.329)

swzw-sozo, "to be brought within the pale of saving privilege, Acts 2:47; Eph. 2:5, 8 (or, according to others, to be actually saved) (Ibid, p. 399)

Now, there are a few things about Eph. 2:8 that make this verse distinctive.


cariti (grace) as it is used here by Paul, is in the accusative, which makes grace a direct object of something.

pistewV (faith) is in the genitive case, which means that it shows possession.

swzw (saved) is nominative, plural, masc., perf. passive part. Which means "you" being saved, completely, perfectly, and that "you" played no part in it because it is passive. It came as a result of something.

qeoV-(God) is the only word in the Greek context that has the possession of all three of these.

To make it as plain as I can, you are saved (seswmenoi, nominative, plural, masc., perfect passive participle) by faith (pistewV, genitive, singular, feminine, noun). Faith being genitive, possesses salvation. However, we have not addressed grace. caritoV, being genitive, shows possession of something. Grace is the possessor. grace possesses faith, and through faith, you are saved.

But what ultimately possesses caritoV? The only answer in the whole text points straight to God (qeou).

qeou (God) is the one who possesses "grace." For it is from God's grace that everything flows.

Your not born under God's grace. It is not due to you.

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt...Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; " -Rom. 4:4, 16 (KJV)

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." -Rom. 11:5-6 (KJV)

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved...For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" -Eph. 2:5,8 (KJV)

"...being heirs together of the grace of life;" -1 Pet. 3:7 (KJV)

"And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all." -Acts 4:33 (KJV)

"Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord." -Acts 11:33 (KJV)

"Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;" -Rom. 12:6 (KJV)

"And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." -2 Cor. 12:9 (KJV)

It is a gift from God. And your wrong, plain and simple.

God Bless

Till all are one.