Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs

[Markea]

Is that mainly a Roman Papacy catholic view?

The RCC is amillennial.. although many protestants are amillennial.. especially within the reformed camp.. ie.. calvinists..

So while Catholics and Orthodox may comprise the greatest majority of amil folks.. amil is certainly not limited to these denominations. I'd be willing to bet that most Cath and Orth folks don't even understand the basis for their denomination being amill.. because if they did.. then most of them would see it for what it is.. false doctrine.

You said in your OP that amil doesn't make scriptural sense.. and I agree.. it doesn't.. and so as mentioned.. the more that you listen to amil's telling you what REV 20 means.. you'll see that their view falls apart, because it's completely removed from its proper context.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The RCC is amillennial.. although many protestants are amillennial.. especially within the reformed camp.. ie.. calvinists..

Ok thanks. I would even go so far as to say that view is "heretical" but that is not my place to judge ones beliefs, views, dogmas and doctrines.

Now I see why Roman catholics view the Roman pope as Vicar of Christ.
I will wait for a Roman catholic to respond.

http://christianforums.com/t6831283-how-different-would-christianity-be-without-the-pope.html

LLOJ [still waiting on chopsticks]

 

[ScottBot]

Is that mainly a Roman Papacy catholic view?

http://christianforums.com/t6810414-i-pray-thee-open-his-eyes.html#post43534599
I pray thee open his eyes

No, it is also the Patriachsy (word?) view of the EO. They are as much in agreement against chiliasm as the Western Church.

 

[ScottBot]

The RCC is amillennial.. although many protestants are amillennial.. especially within the reformed camp.. ie.. calvinists..

So while Catholics and Orthodox may comprise the greatest majority of amil folks.. amil is certainly not limited to these denominations. I'd be willing to bet that most Cath and Orth folks don't even understand the basis for their denomination being amill.. because if they did.. then most of them would see it for what it is.. false doctrine.

You said in your OP that amil doesn't make scriptural sense.. and I agree.. it doesn't.. and so as mentioned.. the more that you listen to amil's telling you what REV 20 means.. you'll see that their view falls apart, because it's completely removed from its proper context.

So, what other parts of the Nicene Creed do you disagree with?

 

[Ben12]

Synagogue is a jewish term of assembly ... giving a clue of Law teaching ... we are not under law any more thus this church is using another Jesus to follow 2 cor 5:16, 2 cor 11:4,13-15,

look up the two differnet words for doctrine...

disache... doctrine for faith and practice
didaskalia.. doctrine for faith but not practice

the Synagogue of Satan is using didaskalia doctrtine for one practice ... which is not surprising that He would use God's word and twist the words to misdirect people as He did with Eve... in the garden

If Revelation is literal; show me is scripture?????

You are twisting God’s Word by literalizing it; you are still trying to literalize Revelation even though Revelation 1:1 declares it symbolic; No where does it say Revelation is a literal book or even partly it literal or prophetic.

Oh I know what a synagogue is; yes it is a Jewish Assembly and that is what I have already expressed. It is also a fake replacement for God’s Temple established in Baby-lon (There is a symbolism). Religious man be it Christian (religious hard headed people or day) or Jews (religious hard headed people in Jesus and John’s day); built this structure on their own. Just like religion today building their outward kingdoms/religious systems/denominations today. It was not directed by God; the Jews lost God’s favor when they first built their Synagogue in Baby-lon; that is the only reason the synagogue was built. It still is a man made, man established example to this day (there still is no temple sense the time of Jesus; nor will there ever be a literal temple again).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh I know what a synagogue is; yes it is a Jewish Assembly and that is what I have already expressed. It is also a fake replacement for God’s Temple established in Baby-lon (There is a symbolism).

I did a greek word study on that and did you notice the word "gog" is in it?

LLOJ [still waiting on chopsticks]

http://www.christianforums.com/t5445270-the-synagogue-of-the-jews-in-nt.html

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I am giving out of the synagogue/sun-agwghV <4864> of the Adversary, to the ones saying selves Judeans to-be and not they are, but they are falsifying.
Behold, I shall be making them that they should be arriving/hxwsin <2240> (5661), and they shall be worshipping before the feet of You, and they may be knowing that I Love You.

Reve 20:8 and will go forth out/exeleusetai <1831> (5695) to deceive the nations that are in the four corners of-the land, the Gog/gwg <1136> and the Magog/magwg <3098>, to-be-together-assembling/sun-agagein them into a-battle.................

 

[HisdaughterJen]

It still is a man made, man established example to this day (there still is no temple sense the time of Jesus; nor will there ever be a literal temple again).

There's a whole lot of scripture that says otherwise. Jesus must reign until all enemies are put under His feet and the last one is death.

1Cr 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Rev 20 states when death is destroyed...at the GWT judgment after the devil is destroyed before the New Heavens/New Earth.


There will still be death and disobedience and sacrifices during the millenium:

Zec 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.
Zec 14:18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
Zec 14:20 On that dayHOLY TO THE Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar.
Zec 14:21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty.




Isa 65:20"Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.





Mic 4:1 In the last days

the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and peoples will stream to it.

Mic 4:2 Many nations will come and say,

&#8220;Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.&#8221;
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:3 He will judge between many peoples
and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.






Zec 8:13 As you have been an object of cursing among the nations, O Judah and Israel, so will I save you, and you will be a blessing. Do not be afraid, but let your hands be strong.&#8221;
Zec 8:14 This is what the Lord Almighty says: &#8220;Just as I had determined to bring disaster upon you and showed no pity when your fathers angered me,&#8221; says the Lord Almighty,
Zec 8:15 &#8220;so now I have determined to do good again to Jerusalem and Judah. Do not be afraid.
Zec 8:16 These are the things you are to do: Speak the truth to each other, and render true and sound judgment in your courts;
Zec 8:17do not plot evil against your neighbor, and do not love to swear falsely. I hate all this,&#8221; declares the Lord.
Zec 8:18 Again the word of the Lord Almighty came to me.
Zec 8:19 This is what the Lord Almighty says: &#8220;The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah. Therefore love truth and peace.&#8221;
Zec 8:20 This is what the Lord Almighty says: &#8220;Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come,
Zec 8:21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, &#8216;Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.&#8217;
Zec 8:22And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.&#8221;
Zec 8:23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: &#8220;In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, &#8216;Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.&#8217; &#8221;





The apostles understood that Israel would be strong again:

Act 1:6 So when they met together, they asked him, &#8220;Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?&#8221;
Act 1:7 He said to them: &#8220;It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.




If you want to read about the new temple and restored Israel during the millenium, check out Ezek 40-48.


Daniel says that after 2300 days, the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.

Paul said that the man of sin would stand in the temple and proclaim that he is God.

 

[Markea]

So, what other parts of the Nicene Creed do you disagree with?

The amillennial viewpoint of the RCC (and other denominations) is not defined by the Nicene Creed.. as it is too general in its declaration.. but rather it is defined by their view of REV 20:1-6.

The test is simple.. please start telling us what YOU and the RCC teach concerning these verses.. and you'll immediately see that they MUST place it into a 'present' context with respect to its timing..

Seriously.. just do it and you'll get the picture.. rather quickly..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So, what other parts of the Nicene Creed do you disagree with?

What does the Nicene creed have to do with it?
The Roman church appears to be implying JESUS has returned and that sounds a little "unorthodox" to me, but then what do I know.

LLOJ [still waiting on chopsticks]

http://christianforums.com/t6823406-question-on-reve-1911.html

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952>, and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful-one and True-one and in justice He is judging and is battling.

 

[Ben12]

There's a whole lot of scripture that says otherwise. Jesus must reign until all enemies are put under His feet and the last one is death.

1Cr 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Rev 20 states when death is destroyed...at the GWT judgment after the devil is destroyed before the New Heavens/New Earth.


There will still be death and disobedience and sacrifices during the millenium:

Zec 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.
Zec 14:18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
Zec 14:20 On that dayHOLY TO THE Lord will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar.
Zec 14:21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord Almighty.




Isa 65:20"Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.





Mic 4:1 In the last days

the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and peoples will stream to it.

Mic 4:2 Many nations will come and say,

&#8220;Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.&#8221;
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:3 He will judge between many peoples
and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.






Zec 8:13 As you have been an object of cursing among the nations, O Judah and Israel, so will I save you, and you will be a blessing. Do not be afraid, but let your hands be strong.&#8221;
Zec 8:14 This is what the Lord Almighty says: &#8220;Just as I had determined to bring disaster upon you and showed no pity when your fathers angered me,&#8221; says the Lord Almighty,
Zec 8:15 &#8220;so now I have determined to do good again to Jerusalem and Judah. Do not be afraid.
Zec 8:16 These are the things you are to do: Speak the truth to each other, and render true and sound judgment in your courts;
Zec 8:17do not plot evil against your neighbor, and do not love to swear falsely. I hate all this,&#8221; declares the Lord.
Zec 8:18 Again the word of the Lord Almighty came to me.
Zec 8:19 This is what the Lord Almighty says: &#8220;The fasts of the fourth, fifth, seventh and tenth months will become joyful and glad occasions and happy festivals for Judah. Therefore love truth and peace.&#8221;
Zec 8:20 This is what the Lord Almighty says: &#8220;Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come,
Zec 8:21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, &#8216;Let us go at once to entreat the Lord and seek the Lord Almighty. I myself am going.&#8217;
Zec 8:22And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.&#8221;
Zec 8:23 This is what the Lord Almighty says: &#8220;In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, &#8216;Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.&#8217; &#8221;





The apostles understood that Israel would be strong again:

Act 1:6 So when they met together, they asked him, &#8220;Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?&#8221;
Act 1:7 He said to them: &#8220;It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.




If you want to read about the new temple and restored Israel during the millenium, check out Ezek 40-48.


Daniel says that after 2300 days, the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.

Paul said that the man of sin would stand in the temple and proclaim that he is God.

Amen; but this will be a spiritual temple not a natural one. Just like the Tabernacle of David is spiritual; and will be established not in a building built by the hands of man; but by God's Spirit. We are his temple.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Amen; but this will be a spiritual temple not a natural one. Just like the Tabernacle of David is spiritual; and will be established not in a building built by the hands of man; but by God's Spirit. We are his temple.

That is also my view.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 5:17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw down/katalusai <2647> (5658) the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw down/katalusai <2647> (5658), but to fulfil;

Matthew 24:2 and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone/liqoV <3037> upon a stone/liqon <3037>, that shall not be being thrown-down/kataluqhsetai <2647> (5701).'

Acts 4:11 `This is the stone/liqoV <3037> that was set at nought by you--the builders/oikodomountwn <3618>, that became head/kefalhn <2776> of a corner

Revelation 21:19 and the foundations of the wall of the city with every precious stone/liqw <3037> have been adorned;

 

[visionary]

If Revelation is literal; show me is scripture?????

You are twisting God’s Word by literalizing it; you are still trying to literalize Revelation even though Revelation 1:1 declares it symbolic; No where does it say Revelation is a literal book or even partly it literal or prophetic.

Oh I know what a synagogue is; yes it is a Jewish Assembly and that is what I have already expressed. It is also a fake replacement for God’s Temple established in Baby-lon (There is a symbolism). Religious man be it Christian (religious hard headed people or day) or Jews (religious hard headed people in Jesus and John’s day); built this structure on their own. Just like religion today building their outward kingdoms/religious systems/denominations today. It was not directed by God; the Jews lost God’s favor when they first built their Synagogue in Baby-lon; that is the only reason the synagogue was built. It still is a man made, man established example to this day (there still is no temple sense the time of Jesus; nor will there ever be a literal temple again).

Just how spiritual is Revelation... so that there is nothing left to relate to reality [literally] in the future?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Just how spiritual is Revelation... so that there is nothing left to relate to reality [literally] in the future?

Hi Visionary. Do Messianics believe JESUS will be sitting on a literal throne in Jerusalem ruling the Jews from there? [another words, a Dispensationalist]? Just curious

LLOJ [still waiting on chopsticks]

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Daniel 11:32 And-ones-doing-wickedly a-Covenant, He-shall-pollute/defile in-smooth-flatteries, and-with Ones-knowing 'elohiym-of-him, They-shall-be-steadfast and-They-do.
35 And-from The-Intelligent-Ones, They-shall-stumble, to-refine in-them and-to-purify and-to-whiten until era-of an-endthat further to-Appointed-Time.

2 Thess 2:3 No any ye should be deluding according to no yet one manner/way, that if-ever no may be coming the apostasy/apostasia <646> first.
And may be being un-covered the Man of the Sin, the Son of the destruction/apwleiaV <684>.

 

[visionary]

Does His feet stand on the Mount of Olives again?

 

[Ben12]

If there was a natural temple as many believe; would they sacrifices of sheep and goats; I thought Jesus blood took care of that issue.

God has the stones for the temple already He is shaping not with the hands of some human craftsman; We are the stone in that spiritual temple; but Jesus Christ is the chief corner stone.

What about the Aaronic Priesthood; there are no priest for they were scattered with the ten lost tribes. But there is a new priesthood under Melchzedek.

Revelations 6:1 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Just like Melchisedec or David’s Tabernacle which points to Jesus and later the Benjamin Company.

"This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of hosts. Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it." (Zechariah 4:6-7).

Not only was there a literal fulfillment of this Scripture, in Zerubbabel's day, but it also holds within it a PROPHETIC WORD, of the greater temple being built, and the establishment of the NEW COVENANT, of which Jesus Christ is both the Chief Cornerstone, and the Capstone. He is both Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End; as well as all the letters in between, and without Him there would be a LIVING TEMPLE established. He is THE ALL!

The Dictionary defines a headstone as: the principle stone in a foundation, the cornerstone. JESUS CHRIST IS THAT STONE! Peter writes this very clearly, "To Whom we come, as unto a Living Stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious."


(1 Peter 2:4). Without this Stone, the next verse would never have been written. "You also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." (v. 5). All that we are, all that we shall ever become to His praise, is BY JESUS CHRIST. We are His workmanship, and we are to be conformed to His image. "Wherefore also it is contained in the Scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a CHIEF CORNERSTONE, elect, precious: and he that believes on Him shall not be confounded." (v. 6).



"This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of hosts. Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it." (Zechariah 4:6-7).

 

[ScottBot]

What does the Nicene creed have to do with it?
The Roman church appears to be implying JESUS has returned and that sounds a little "unorthodox" to me, but then what do I know.

LLOJ [still waiting on chopsticks]

http://christianforums.com/t6823406-question-on-reve-1911.html

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952>, and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'

Reve 19:11 And I perceived the heaven having be opened and Lo! A horse, white and the One sitting on it/him being called Faithful-one and True-one and in justice He is judging and is battling.

THe Catholic Church does not accept full preterism and still awaits the triumphant return of Christ. I dare you to prove otherwise. Anything you might offer can be easily debunked with official Church teaching.

The Creed has EVERYTHING to do with it. In this forum, we are bound by the NIcene Creed, and that very creed in its final formula contains the phrase "and His kingdom will have no end". This phrase was added to the creed at the Ecumenical Council of Constantinople specifically to combat the heresy of chiliasm as propegated by Apollonarius. Since we seem to be ready to throw out this part of the creed by limiting Christ's kingdom to a mere 1,000 years, I just what other inconvenient part of the creed we'd like to dispense with?

I know we'd love to shove the "I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church" out the window, but hey, I like that part.

 

[Ben12]

Just how spiritual is Revelation... so that there is nothing left to relate to reality [literally] in the future?

The spiritual is the reality; the literal is the outer shell, the hull. God is a spirit and His Word is spiritual; not literal, not carnal and especially not religious.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Does His feet stand on the Mount of Olives again?

Hi. I have a rather unique view of that, but I am waiting to hear more from the Roman catholics on how they can be in the Millinium now and would that be the fulfillment of Zech 14:5?

Where would this army be standing in Luke 21:20 out of curiousity?

Luke 21:20 `Whenever yet ye may be seeing being compassed/kukloumenhn<2944> by armies/hosts/stratopedwn <4760>, Jerusalem, then be ye knowing that has neared the desolating of her

Zech 14:5 And you flee ravine of mountains, that he shall touch ravine of mountains to 'Atsel. And you flee as which you fled from before the earthquake in days of `Uzziyah king of Y@huwdah and He comes, YHWH my Elohiym, all of holy-ones with You.

 

[ScottBot]

Does His feet stand on the Mount of Olives again?

Well, I wasn''t whisked up by the Holy Helicopter of the Rapture, so that eather means one of 3 things.

1. It hasn't happened yet.
2. There is no "pre-tribulational rapture"
3. I missed it, and so did everyone else that posts here

 

[Ben12]

That is also my view.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 5:17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw down/katalusai <2647> (5658) the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw down/katalusai <2647> (5658), but to fulfil;

Matthew 24:2 and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone/liqoV <3037> upon a stone/liqon <3037>, that shall not be being thrown-down/kataluqhsetai <2647> (5701).'

Acts 4:11 `This is the stone/liqoV <3037> that was set at nought by you--the builders/oikodomountwn <3618>, that became head/kefalhn <2776> of a corner

Revelation 21:19 and the foundations of the wall of the city with every precious stone/liqw <3037> have been adorned;

Amen; what I find really exciting is the tabernacle of David being reestablished. Acts 15: 16-18