Question time. Jesus returns before or after 1000yrs

[visionary]

Doesn't this belong in the Dispensationalist forums? The literal 1000 year reign of Christ is not a belief that is widely held in Christianity, but is a staple for Dispensationalists.

What?? not a commonly held belief?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

What?? not a commonly held belief?

I second that! Especially when it's written in God's Word....

 

[visionary]

Even the poll show that the majority believe in the 1000 years.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Even the poll show that the majority believe in the 1000 years.

And most believe JESUS returns before the 1000yr period.
So where does the Bible show He returns "twice" if the Catholics believe they are in the millinnium
My view is armeggdon and gog-magog are the same event. Still working on translations.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 16:14 For they-are spirits of-demons doing signs which is-going-out upon the kings of the inhabited-house/oikoumenhV <3625>, whole, to-be-together-assembling/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the battle/polemon <4171> of-the Day, that the great, of the God, the Almighty.

Reve 20:8 and he shall be coming out to deceive the nations, the in the four corners of the land, the Gog and Magog, to be together-assembling/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the battle/polemon <4171> of which the number of them as the sand of the sea.

 

[garry2]

And most believe JESUS returns before the 1000yr period.
So where does the Bible show He returns "twice" if the Catholics believe they are in the millinnium

My view is armeggdon and gog-magog are the same event. Still working on translations.[/quote]

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 16:14 For they-are spirits of-demons doing signs which is-going-out upon the kings of the inhabited-house/oikoumenhV <3625>, whole, to-be-together-assembling/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the battle/polemon <4171> of-the Day, that the great, of the God, the Almighty.

Reve 20:8 and he shall be coming out to deceive the nations, the in the four corners of the land, the Gog and Magog, to be together-assembling/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the battle/polemon <4171> of which the number of them as the sand of the sea.

I beleive that Great and fearful day of the Lord, and the gog magog battles are two diffrent events, because the gog magog battle is a coming against Israel of a certain number of nations, who are named.
But armageddon is coming against GOD and His with Him.
Also the armageddon battle is the armies off all the nations, not just some in the middle east as in gog magog.

 

[Ben12]

Revelation 20 is not symbolic it is literal, and hasn't happened yet.

Read this chapter and it becomes obvious that it is as it says.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

there has never been a time yet when the nations were not deceived for a thousand years, it is yet to come.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This resurrection has not occured yet, but it will, God said so.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is all Literal and true, not symbolic.

Should I believe you or God&#8217;s Word? I am backing my claim by by God&#8217;s Word it is symbolic; so if you say it is literal then prove it with God&#8217;s Word? Revelations is a book of symbolism; and is not literal. Yes there are literal Churches or assemblies; but there is a deep spiritual hidden message under the surface. Look closely at that first chapter and there are all kinds of foundations that establish revelations in this context Book of Revelations is the Revelation&#8217;s of Jesus Christ with in us; not without.

Revelations 1:1​

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:​

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; &#8216;signified&#8221; or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Should I believe you or God&#8217;s Word? I am backing my claim by by God&#8217;s Word it is symbolic; so if you say it is literal then prove it with God&#8217;s Word? Revelations is a book of symbolism; and is not literal. Yes there are literal Churches or assemblies; but there is a deep spiritual hidden message under the surface. Look closely at that first chapter and there are all kinds of foundations that establish revelations in this context Book of Revelations is the Revelation&#8217;s of Jesus Christ with in us; not without.

Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:​

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; &#8216;signified&#8221; or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

But it is about REAL things...events, beings, times, places...

The symbolism represents REAL things.

It's not like an actual beast comes up out of the ocean...it's symbolic of a real being that's mentioned elsewhere is scripture including Daniel and 2 Thess 2.


The King of Kings and Lord of Lords that comes with armies of heaven following Him is REALLY Jesus who REALLY kills the evil people gathered against Him.


It speaks of REAL things that are symbolized because it's talking about what happens on earth when the spiritual world tangibly comes "to play" on earth.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I beleive that Great and fearful day of the Lord, and the gog magog battles are two diffrent events, because the gog magog battle is a coming against Israel of a certain number of nations, who are named.
But armageddon is coming against GOD and His with Him.
Also the armageddon battle is the armies off all the nations, not just some in the middle east as in gog magog.

Hi. While perusing other sites and their views I came across this Messianic site, and it surprised me when I saw he also views them as the same event [though I differ with him on a number of things here].
I just found it today so I haven't really read it through very well yet. Thoughts?

LLOJ [doesn't agree with Messianic's interpretations of Scripture very often and is still waiting on chopsticks]

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/Gog.htm
IS THE GOG/MAGOG WAR THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON?

.........Despite what some teach about the battle of Gog/Magog, the Bible makes it clear that this conflict is the same one popularly called the "battle of Armageddon" in the book of Revelation. Both Ezekiel and Revelation record that this battle will feature an earthquake which will level the mountains and collapse all the cities of the world.

 

[Ben12]

HisdaughterJen

And symbolism are not real things; God’s spiritual is what is the real thing, the natural the literal is the unreal or temporal. So God cannot use “events, beings, times, places” in symbolisms? Take the dragon in revelation; I had a Christian try to tell be there used to be dragons because Revelation says there are dragons; its a symbolism.

Take a barber pole; if you brought let say a Korean to the US and told him to get a hair cut; he would have no clue what a barber’s pole was until some one showed him. God has a very deep and awesome message in Revelation; and it is hidden in symbolism.

Some naturalizing God’s Word; especially the Book of Revelation; when it should be spirit and life. That is why you have all these weird theories; the book is not weird it is spiritual. Many of God’s people carnalize the truth because they cannot comprehend what is spiritual. You see the picture language of the Bible has unchangeableness where religious men did not understand what God’s Spirit was saying; so they cannot not altar God’s Word.

A lampstand is a real thing. Look at the lamp stand in Revelation:

The lampstand was a (real thing) piece of furniture that was in the Tabernacle in the wilderness as well as both temples. Like all the furniture in the temple there was always a much deeper and awesome meaning. I am just going to touch on a few thought I thought were interesting. So often God hides his glory from carnal man by types, shadows, parables, mysteries and hidden manna.

Lamp stand was made by beaten gold; that is the craftsman would literally beat the gold to desired shape. Gold is symbolic of divine life which takes trials and tribulations to accomplish.

The lamp had seven staffs attached to one staff; symbolic of seven spirits of God in Isaiah 11:2; but one God.

Fire is symbolic of the purging power of Holy Spirit. Everyday the priest would have to immerse the lamp in olive oil (symbolic of God’s anointing) and light the lamp with fire.

I might also add; then the lampstand was placed in the Holy Place for light. The first court or the outer court had no lamp but was lit by the sun by day; but at night there was no lamp. The Holy of Holies also had no lamp for God’s Glory would be all the light it needed on the day of atonement.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And symbolism are not real things; God&#8217;s spiritual is what is the real thing, the natural the literal is the unreal or temporal. So God cannot use &#8220;events, beings, times, places&#8221; in symbolisms? Take the dragon in revelation;

Hey lookie here. A Pharaoh that is a Dragon.......

Ezekiel 29:3"Speak! and you say-- 'Thus says 'Adonay YHWH. Behold Me! on you, Pharaoh/Par`oh king of Egypt, the Dragon/08577 tanniyn, the great, the one reclining in midst of his Rivers which he says to Me ' my River and I, I made for me'.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

HisdaughterJen

And symbolism are not real things; God&#8217;s spiritual is what is the real thing, the natural the literal is the unreal or temporal. So God cannot use &#8220;events, beings, times, places&#8221; in symbolisms? Take the dragon in revelation; I had a Christian try to tell be there used to be dragons because Revelation says there are dragons; its a symbolism.

Well, yes...Leviathan...and it does symbolically have something to do with the devil. Below is one of the main passages describing the "fire-breathing dragon". The beast out of the sea, symbolically, appears to refer to Leviathan. The beast out of the earth, symbolically, appears to refer to Bohemoth. When you read Enoch, considered Scripture for 2000 years by the Ethiopian Coptic Church, you will see that these two creatures were once, symbolically, together. It is interesting in light of their descriptions in Rev and Job.

Job 41:1 &#8220;Can you pull in the leviathan[fn1] with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?
Job 41:2 Can you put a cord through his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?
Job 41:3 Will he keep begging you for mercy?
Will he speak to you with gentle words?
Job 41:4 Will he make an agreement with you
for you to take him as your slave for life?
Job 41:5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird
or put him on a leash for your girls?
Job 41:6 Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?
Job 41:7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?
Job 41:8 If you lay a hand on him,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
Job 41:9 Any hope of subduing him is false;
the mere sight of him is overpowering.
Job 41:10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him.
Who then is able to stand against me?
Job 41:11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.

Job 41:12 &#8220;I will not fail to speak of his limbs,
his strength and his graceful form.
Job 41:13 Who can strip off his outer coat?
Who would approach him with a bridle?
Job 41:14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth,
ringed about with his fearsome teeth?
Job 41:15 His back has[fn2] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
Job 41:16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
Job 41:17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
Job 41:18 His snorting throws out flashes of light;
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.
Job 41:19 Firebrands stream from his mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
Job 41:20 Smoke pours from his nostrils
as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.
Job 41:21 His breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from his mouth.
Job 41:22 Strength resides in his neck;
dismay goes before him.
Job 41:23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
Job 41:24 His chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
Job 41:25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before his thrashing.
Job 41:26 The sword that reaches him has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
Job 41:27 Iron he treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
Job 41:28 Arrows do not make him flee;
slingstones are like chaff to him.
Job 41:29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw;
he laughs at the rattling of the lance.
Job 41:30 His undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
Job 41:31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
Job 41:32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake;
one would think the deep had white hair.
Job 41:33 Nothing on earth is his equal&#8212;
a creature without fear.
Job 41:34 He looks down on all that are haughty;
he is king over all that are proud.&#8221;




Note that last verse...compare it to Rev 13...how the beast out of the sea is proud and blasphemes God.

And after reading Enoch, you realize that since the two beasts were once together, you realize how closely related the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth are.

http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_2.HTM
' 7 And on that day were two monsters parted, a female monster named Leviathan, to dwell in the 8 abysses of the ocean over the fountains of the waters. But the male is named Behemoth, who occupied with his breast a waste wilderness named Duidain, on the east of the garden where the elect and righteous dwell, where my grandfather was taken up, the seventh from Adam, the first 9 man whom the Lord of Spirits created. And I besought the other angel that he should show me the might of those monsters, how they were parted on one day and cast, the one into the abysses 10 of the sea, and the other unto the dry land of the wilderness."


Yes, it's symbolic and now you can begin to see where that particular symbolism comes from.

. God has a very deep and awesome message in Revelation; and it is hidden in symbolism.

Yes, certainly, but dig it out!!!!

Some naturalizing God&#8217;s Word; especially the Book of Revelation; when it should be spirit and life. That is why you have all these weird theories; the book is not weird it is spiritual. Many of God&#8217;s people carnalize the truth because they cannot comprehend what is spiritual. You see the picture language of the Bible has unchangeableness where religious men did not understand what God&#8217;s Spirit was saying; so they cannot not altar God&#8217;s Word.

Yes, it is speaking of spiritual things and describing them with symbolism.

A lampstand is a real thing. Look at the lamp stand in Revelation:

The lampstand was a (real thing) piece of furniture that was in the Tabernacle in the wilderness as well as both temples. Like all the furniture in the temple there was always a much deeper and awesome meaning. I am just going to touch on a few thought I thought were interesting. So often God hides his glory from carnal man by types, shadows, parables, mysteries and hidden manna.

Yes, the Bible has many layers. One scripture can have more than one layer of meaning. The Good Samaritan story is an excellent example. On the surface, it is a be a good neighbor story. When you understand God's plan, you see that each character represents something and Jesus essentially told us the entire plan for mankind in that one parable.

Revelation is not unknowable. It is using the same symbolism found in other scripture. You just have to keep digging.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Something else that I just noticed is that the "dragon" who is the devil in Rev 13, a creature of the sea if he is leviathan, is standing on the shore of the sea...standing on the earth...

Rev 13:1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.
And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
Rev 13:2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
Rev 13:3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.
Rev 13:4 Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, &#8220;Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?&#8221;
Rev 13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty&#8209;two months.
Rev 13:6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
Rev 13:7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
Rev 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast&#8211;all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.[fn2]
Rev 13:9 He who has an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10
If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed[fn3] with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed.

This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
Rev 13:12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
Rev 13:13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
Rev 13:14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
Rev 13:15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
Rev 13:16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
Rev 13:17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.




As far as I can tell, the symbolism just means that they are all connected and of the devil.

 

[LLWHA]

In fact, in the literal section at the very beginning of Revelation, before the "revelation" part starts, John clearly states that Jesus is reigning over the kings of the earth NOW! Rev 1:5

And this was at the time he wrote this 1900 years ago - so Jesus has been the one reigning for 2000 years!

His reign is NOW, not future.

That is wrong.
The fake Jews of "the synagogue of Satan" are ruling the earth now.

 

[thereselittleflower]

What?? not a commonly held belief?

Not at all - and this you already know from many other discussions we have had over the past years.

It is held by a very small minority of believers. Very small and mostly in the US where beleivers generally experience prosperity and freedom from strong persecution.

But in countries where christians are persecuted as a matter of course, they know this eschatological belief system is bunk and laugh at it. They are experiencing tribulation now. It is not future.

Dispenationalism, and millenialism, is an abberancy held to by the few.

And if you think that numbers here reflect what is true in the real world, you are greatly mistaken.


It is a false eschatological belief system. period.

 

[thereselittleflower]

That is wrong.
The fake Jews of "the synagogue of Satan" are ruling the earth now.

goodness gracious!

Did you even bother to read the scriptural reference I gave?

Are you saying that the scriptures are wrong?

Where is your scriptural reference? There isn't any to support your claim that I am aware of!

The scriptures plainly state that Jesus is ruler over the kings of the earth in the PRESENT TENSE. . . that means now . . not future . . now!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Something else that I just noticed is that the "dragon" who is the devil in Rev 13, a creature of the sea if he is leviathan, is standing on the shore of the sea...standing on the earth...

Rev 13:1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.
And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
Rev 13:2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
Rev 13:3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.
Rev 13:4 Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?”
Rev 13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty&#8209;two months.
Rev 13:6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
Rev 13:7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
Rev 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast–all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.[fn2]
Rev 13:9 He who has an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10
If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed[fn3] with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed.

This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
Rev 13:12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.
Rev 13:13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
Rev 13:14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
Rev 13:15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
Rev 13:16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
Rev 13:17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.




As far as I can tell, the symbolism just means that they are all connected and of the devil.

Yes. . . . .

 

[thereselittleflower]

But it is about REAL things...events, beings, times, places...

The symbolism represents REAL things.

It's not like an actual beast comes up out of the ocean...it's symbolic of a real being that's mentioned elsewhere is scripture including Daniel and 2 Thess 2.


The King of Kings and Lord of Lords that comes with armies of heaven following Him is REALLY Jesus who REALLY kills the evil people gathered against Him.


It speaks of REAL things that are symbolized because it's talking about what happens on earth when the spiritual world tangibly comes "to play" on earth.

And it is believed by many that those "events, times, beings and places" were those of the time in which it was written - ie tp those 1st century chrsitians and was not about future events except in a general sense as a look forward to the eventual triumph of God over evil.

Those who try to "dig" out of the Apocalypse of John something about specific future events, times, people and places are barking up the wrong tree.

That is not what it is about.

It is not foretelling specific future events. It is not about foretelling at all. It is not actually prophecy as in foretelling future events.

It is of a particular genre of the time it was written in, and was written to those of that time. They understood it.

 

[thereselittleflower]

And the bible is not a code where in we pick it apart and take a bit from one place, and a bit from another, and again from another and put those bits together as though they were written that way.

That is the great error of dispensastionalism and other forms of millenialism . . . . the digging being referred to here by some is just that - a rewriting of the scriptures by taking them apart and rearranging bits together that were not originally together.

That is a grave misuse of scripture.

 

[Ben12]

Ray Prinzing and has written a book called "Revelation a Positive Book" you can read/download on the Web. Puts a whole different light on the most spiritual book in the Bible.

 

[Ben12]

Well, yes...Leviathan...and it does symbolically have something to do with the devil. Below is one of the main passages describing the "fire-breathing dragon". The beast out of the sea, symbolically, appears to refer to Leviathan. The beast out of the earth, symbolically, appears to refer to Bohemoth. When you read Enoch, considered Scripture for 2000 years by the Ethiopian Coptic Church, you will see that these two creatures were once, symbolically, together. It is interesting in light of their descriptions in Rev and Job.

Job 41:1 &#8220;Can you pull in the leviathan[fn1] with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?
Job 41:2 Can you put a cord through his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?
Job 41:3 Will he keep begging you for mercy?
Will he speak to you with gentle words?
Job 41:4 Will he make an agreement with you
for you to take him as your slave for life?
Job 41:5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird
or put him on a leash for your girls?
Job 41:6 Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?
Job 41:7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?
Job 41:8 If you lay a hand on him,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
Job 41:9 Any hope of subduing him is false;
the mere sight of him is overpowering.
Job 41:10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him.
Who then is able to stand against me?
Job 41:11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.

Job 41:12 &#8220;I will not fail to speak of his limbs,
his strength and his graceful form.
Job 41:13 Who can strip off his outer coat?
Who would approach him with a bridle?
Job 41:14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth,
ringed about with his fearsome teeth?
Job 41:15 His back has[fn2] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
Job 41:16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
Job 41:17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
Job 41:18 His snorting throws out flashes of light;
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.
Job 41:19 Firebrands stream from his mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
Job 41:20 Smoke pours from his nostrils
as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.
Job 41:21 His breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from his mouth.
Job 41:22 Strength resides in his neck;
dismay goes before him.
Job 41:23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
Job 41:24 His chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
Job 41:25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before his thrashing.
Job 41:26 The sword that reaches him has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
Job 41:27 Iron he treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
Job 41:28 Arrows do not make him flee;
slingstones are like chaff to him.
Job 41:29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw;
he laughs at the rattling of the lance.
Job 41:30 His undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
Job 41:31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
Job 41:32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake;
one would think the deep had white hair.
Job 41:33 Nothing on earth is his equal&#8212;
a creature without fear.
Job 41:34 He looks down on all that are haughty;
he is king over all that are proud.&#8221;




Note that last verse...compare it to Rev 13...how the beast out of the sea is proud and blasphemes God.

And after reading Enoch, you realize that since the two beasts were once together, you realize how closely related the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth are.

http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch/ENOCH_2.HTM
' 7 And on that day were two monsters parted, a female monster named Leviathan, to dwell in the 8 abysses of the ocean over the fountains of the waters. But the male is named Behemoth, who occupied with his breast a waste wilderness named Duidain, on the east of the garden where the elect and righteous dwell, where my grandfather was taken up, the seventh from Adam, the first 9 man whom the Lord of Spirits created. And I besought the other angel that he should show me the might of those monsters, how they were parted on one day and cast, the one into the abysses 10 of the sea, and the other unto the dry land of the wilderness."


Yes, it's symbolic and now you can begin to see where that particular symbolism comes from.




Yes, certainly, but dig it out!!!!



Yes, it is speaking of spiritual things and describing them with symbolism.



Yes, the Bible has many layers. One scripture can have more than one layer of meaning. The Good Samaritan story is an excellent example. On the surface, it is a be a good neighbor story. When you understand God's plan, you see that each character represents something and Jesus essentially told us the entire plan for mankind in that one parable.

Revelation is not unknowable. It is using the same symbolism found in other scripture. You just have to keep digging.

Amen