We are not to hurt anyone for any reason.

[mont974x4]

SS,
Best go back and reread 1 Cor and Romans again.

 

[Zecryphon]

First of all I did not say we are not to judge other Christians, I said we are not to judge others. Secondly as I said before judge is a broad term that can apply in many different ways. In some ways ok and in other ways not ok and it does nto matter in the least wether the person claims to be Christain or not.[/color]

The fact that the implication is a bad thing to be viewed as a tax collector supposedly written by a tax collector who is held in high esteem. I thought it was clear.

Again broad usage of judge, perhaps I should say that we are not to condemn anyone, not to hold it against them, the problem is that people judge others in such a way as to look down on them and falsely lift themselves up above them.

Nonsense.. being a believer in no way makes anyone righteous and those who believe they are and that they are entitled to judge others are the root of the problem. They come across as believing they are better than others because of what they believe and they are totally 100% wrong to do so.

So if the man believes God told him so it is ok even if he is wrong, no matter what you may think we are relying on our own understanding of whatever the events are no matter what voices or directions we think we may be getting or not getting from beyond.


Because they are two different people and they taught different things even though many can not see it. No one knows where Paul got his ideas from all we have is what he said about it and if what he said is true then that alone destroys much of the common Christain dogma but that is another issue altogether.

And yes those verses are talking about judging others especially when we judge them differently than we judge ourselves and even moreso when we condemn them for things that we would want to be forgiven for if we were the guilty party.

"First of all I did not say we are not to judge other Christians, I said we are not to judge others."

Oh big difference there. LOL

"Secondly as I said before judge is a broad term that can apply in many different ways. In some ways ok and in other ways not ok and it does nto matter in the least wether the person claims to be Christain or not."

Yes it does. See, one group we are allowed to judge, Christians. The other group, would then be non-Christians or those outside the church and the scriptures are clear, God will judge those outside the church.

"The fact that the implication is a bad thing to be viewed as a tax collector supposedly written by a tax collector who is held in high esteem. I thought it was clear."

Former tax-collector. Matthew left his job to follow Christ. He was no longer a tax collector when he wrote his gospel, and what makes you think Matthew was held in high esteem as a tax collector?

"Again broad usage of judge, perhaps I should say that we are not to condemn anyone, not to hold it against them, the problem is that people judge others in such a way as to look down on them and falsely lift themselves up above them."

If you judge a person's actions to be sinful, are you not condeming that person as a sinner then? I've seen the accusation made many times on this forum that if we declare someone or something to be sinful we are automatically condeming that thing or person.

"Nonsense.. being a believer in no way makes anyone righteous and those who believe they are and that they are entitled to judge others are the root of the problem."

Yeah it's never you, but always somebody else who is the problem. LOL What is nonsense is your lack of understanding here. When you are in Christ, you are cleansed of sin and Christ's righteousness is credited to you. You are declared righteous because of Christ. You are a new creation.

"They come across as believing they are better than others because of what they believe and they are totally 100% wrong to do so."

That's just a conclusion of yours about what their motives are for their actions. You see someone judging someone else and you think the person that is judging, does so from the standpoint of thinking they are better than someone else. You're reading your own prejudice into the situation.

"So if the man believes God told him so it is ok even if he is wrong, no matter what you may think we are relying on our own understanding of whatever the events are no matter what voices or directions we think we may be getting or not getting from beyond."

No, when we judge people or their actions we must judge them against what is revealed or declared in the scriptures. That is our guide. Not whatever we happen to think or whatever we wish to attribute to God.

"Because they are two different people and they taught different things even though many can not see it. No one knows where Paul got his ideas from all we have is what he said about it and if what he said is true then that alone destroys much of the common Christain dogma but that is another issue altogether."

I don't see that Paul taught anything that is contradictory to what Christ taught.

"And yes those verses are talking about judging others especially when we judge them differently than we judge ourselves and even moreso when we condemn them for things that we would want to be forgiven for if we were the guilty party."

The verses are about hypocrisy, not judging in general as a bad thing that never ought to be done. Like it says in Matthew 18, if you go to your brother and confront him about his sin towards you and he listens you have gained a brother. What that says to me is that if I were to go to someone and tell them they have committed a sin, I need to have a basis upon which to make that claim. I have to know what a sin is and which one they have committed. How am I going to go to determine this? I would have to consult the scriptures. They are the authority. If a person does something that is not found to be a sin in the scriptures I can not accuse them of committing a sin, because that would be a violation of the ninth commandment. I do not expect to be judged differently for a sin I commit. Judge me the same way. Call me a sinner. When a person tells me that, and their accusation is supported by scripture, then I will go to God and repent for my sin. That's what I expect others to do as well.

 

[Soul Searcher]

It is clear that you do not understand perhaps I did not word it well, It can be difficult at times because many of our words have a wide range of meanings and the intended meaning is not always perceived in written dialog.

I have saw many people hurt by people picking and choosing scripture to judge them with. There was no reason to do it, no benifit to anyone, the only motive seemed to be that it made the accuser feel better about themselves like the one in the temple that was thankful he was not like this other guy while the other guy just prayed for mercy. The latter was in the right the former was not.

I also did not say that Pauls teachings contradicted those of Jesus although I could make a case for it, I said they were different and they are. Did Jesus teach that women should not speak in church? Did he teach that it was a disgrace for a man to have long hair? Funny how pretty much all dipictions of Jesus are with long hair and Paul speaks out against it.

I have had people use that very verse against me as I have always worn my hair long, My grandfather a decon in the church was kicked out when he told them that he had be divorced and remarried [50 years prior] using scripture, my aunt was made to feel like she didn't belong in the church because of a past marriage and so on. I have seen so many people unfairly judged using scripture that I can't count the times and I have yet to see any good come of it. Instead I see hurt feelings and the semblance of pride in the accusers with the attitude of at least I am not like that one. Meanwhile those people are some of the most mean spirited people I have known and they proclaim themselves righteous in Christ. If only they had a clue.

 

[mont974x4]

So because some people are legalistic and misuse Scripture you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

 

[Soul Searcher]

So because some people are legalistic and misuse Scripture you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Whatever.. I'm tired of trying to explain. If any of us think we are righteous then it is us that we should be looking at not our neighbor.

 

[mont974x4]

OK, but that fact is Christs blood does make us righteous.

Not claiming perfection...just pointing to His work in us and what He did on the cross for us.


Jay

 

[Soul Searcher]

OK, but that fact is Christs blood does make us righteous.

Not claiming perfection...just pointing to His work in us and what He did on the cross for us.


Jay

I know the theology but righteous means to do right and if we do not do right then we are not no matter what we may believe. To many churches teach that if you believe a certian way or say a certian prayer then you are a new person, a righteous person. This is not true. We are new only when we change our ways, we are good only when we do good and we are righteous only when we do right. Beliefs have nothing to do with it.

 

[GenemZ]

Here's the key to this problem..... Context is the issue!

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.
He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."


​

Jesus was not speaking of Jews concerning issues with other Jews in that passage.

"And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?"


​

Jesus spoke the words... "your bothers." = speaking of fellow Jews.

The dissertation was concerning a situation of the Jews (brothers) versus the Roman occupation. Of Jew, versus the heathen... Their Goyim enemy.

And, again... It was the Roman occupying troops that would abuse Jews by slapping them down. It was not a typical behavior of Jew against Jew issue. It was Roman soldiers that would demand Jews to pick up loads and carry them a mile...etc.

Jesus was teaching the Jews how to survive under Roman occupation. He was also teaching them the principle of loving all with agape love... which is not a love of personal preference. Its a love out of respect for another life. Seeing all life as equal before God.

Jesus did not say... " ...

​

When a thief breaks into your home to do harm, remain passive and let him hurt whom he may."

​

Not so!

Slaps and walking miles can not compare to what a criminal would do. Jesus was not speaking of violent criminal activity.

A criminal does not break into your home to slap you!

A criminal does not break into your home to get you to walk a mile.

You are not to greet him when he enters as you would a brother entering.

CONTEXT!!!

The ones here who think it all applies to all situations have sucked on oranges when they were supposed to be eating apples.

Exodus 22:2 (New International Version)
"If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies,
the defender is not guilty of bloodshed."




​

The difference is...

1.) A thief does not break in to slap you.

2.) He does not break in to get you to walk a mile....

3.) He does not break in to simply demand your cloak (when he is cold and you have a cloak).




In Christ, GeneZ





.

 

[2theBone]

Unsubscribing due to an overdose of silliness.

 

[mont974x4]

I know the theology but righteous means to do right and if we do not do right then we are not no matter what we may believe. To many churches teach that if you believe a certian way or say a certian prayer then you are a new person, a righteous person. This is not true. We are new only when we change our ways, we are good only when we do good and we are righteous only when we do right. Beliefs have nothing to do with it.

unsubscribing as well. I'll save my pearls and knock the dust from my sanadals.

 

[GenemZ]

unsubscribing as well. I'll save my pearls and knock the dust from my sanadals.

I find a humorous irony in that ...

Matthew 7:6 niv​

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."



​

​

Who's going to trample anything? Tear you to pieces? Just hit them with your string of pearls, and they will offer you their other family members to be hit as well. Right? (at least, that's what they claim).




But? If thief wishes to do you bodily harm?

Exodus 22:2 (New International Version)
"If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, ​

the defender is not guilty of bloodshed." ​

Jesus came not to destroy the Law.

.​

​

 

[GenemZ]

Acts 13:8-11 (New International Version)
​

But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, "You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun."​

​

I ask you?

Why did Paul agree to bring on him harm? Why did not Paul simply bless Elymas and pray for him?


Paul should have just walked away, and have no part in doing harm to Elymas?







.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

No you are wrong. It is a matter of what comes first one’s love of God or one’s love of people

Am I? What did Christ love more, a) letting his disciples eat on the sabbath, or b) observing the sabbath? What did Jesus say about healing on the sabbath? Saving someones life is a greater reflection of someone's love for God than the obedience of a rule.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Am I? What did Christ love more, a) letting his disciples eat on the sabbath, or b) observing the sabbath? What did Jesus say about healing on the sabbath? Saving someones life is a greater reflection of someone's love for God than the obedience of a rule.

Good point. The law was made for man not the other way around. The spirit of the law is for man to love one another, to be merciful and help when needed, sometimes this may require breaking a lesser rule to fullfill a greater one and thus fullfill the spirit of the law.

 

[VCViking]

LOL I see.. so then it is not possibel for a Christain to be a hypocrite because thier sins have been paid for by the senseless execution of an innocent man? That allows you to sin and then condemn others for sin. hmmm. Interesting.... totally wrong but interesting.

Senseless execution?

When you get saved, and I assume you aren't from your post and your "Christian Seeker" icon, you will understand about past and future sins and that the death of Jesus was not senseless, among other things.

 

[VCViking]

unsubscribing as well. I'll save my pearls and knock the dust from my sanadals.

I think I will follow suit.


2 Timothy 2:23
But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.


Titus 3:9-11
9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.

10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,

11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.


Matthew 7:6
Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Senseless execution?

When you get saved, and I assume you aren't from your post and your "Christian Seeker" icon, you will understand about past and future sins and that the death of Jesus was not senseless, among other things.

Your assumptions are wrong according to church dogma I have been saved more than once and not at all but it was only after leaving the church dogma behind that I began to see the light.

Yes I am Christain and yes I am a seeker. I believe that no one has all the answers and that we should continue to seek. I try to keep an open mind in search of the truth wherever it may lead.

Yes the execution of Jesus was senseless. Men were afraid and they had him killed for that reason. The church paints a different picture celibrating his death rather than his life preaching belief as the key rather than adherance to what he taught. In many cases they wouldn't know him if he was standing next to them.

 

[Giver]

Am I? What did Christ love more, a) letting his disciples eat on the sabbath, or b) observing the sabbath? What did Jesus say about healing on the sabbath? Saving someones life is a greater reflection of someone's love for God than the obedience of a rule.

I have been trying to share what Jesus/Holy Spirit has taught me. Scripture backs up what I have been taught. Sense Emperor the Constantine the Christian Church has tried to rationalize its way around the Word of God. Christian were pacifists before Constantine.

Yes Jesus had us break the Sabbath Law; he is God so he knew why the law was instituted. He came here to complete the Old Law.

What is wrong with your rational is that it assumes someone other than God knows what a person should do in the event of one of your hypothetical situations. Jesus said offer the evil person no resistance. He didn’t say unless. We say the Lords prayer. It says Thy will be done. You notice God’s will be done, not ours.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I have been trying to share what Jesus/Holy Spirit has taught me. Scripture backs up what I have been taught. Sense Emperor the Constantine the Christian Church has tried to rationalize its way around the Word of God. Christian were pacifists before Constantine.

Yes Jesus had us break the Sabbath Law; he is God so he knew why the law was instituted. He came here to complete the Old Law.

What is wrong with your rational is that it assumes someone other than God knows what a person should do in the event of one of your hypothetical situations. Jesus said offer the evil person no resistance. He didn’t say unless. We say the Lords prayer. It says Thy will be done. You notice God’s will be done, not ours.

How do you know what God's will is for us? From your own personal revelation? You do realize that personal revelation is the excuse used by many who perform actions contrary to biblical teachings.

You are following some of what God asks, but not all. You've excluded the passages that have any regard to defense.

Anyhow, however many pages this has gone on, is too many. If you aren't open at all to try to understand the full scope of this idea then all I can tell you is good luck, and take care.

 

[Giver]

How do you know what God's will is for us? From your own personal revelation? You do realize that personal revelation is the excuse used by many who perform actions contrary to biblical teachings.

You are following some of what God asks, but not all. You've excluded the passages that have any regard to defense.

Anyhow, however many pages this has gone on, is too many. If you aren't open at all to try to understand the full scope of this idea then all I can tell you is good luck, and take care.

When personal revelation leads someone away from the Word of the Lord, then it isn’t from God. The Christian Bible is the Word of God.

The Christian Church comes against personal revelation, much of the time, not because it comes against the Word of God, but because it comes against the Churches teachings.

Now Jesus has personally taught me that Christians are dead to sin, we are not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason. The Bible teaches us the same thing, but how many of the Christian Churches teach these truths?

The Holy Spirit has taught me not to store, not to have possessions, to love. Does the Christian Church teach these truths? How can someone say they love when they have extra money, things, and know others are in need, but keep these things for themselves?