She's just not that into me?

[Tamara224]

Look, I can understand that reading like I'm demanding physical affection, but it's not what I actually wrote at all.

It doesn't matter what you meant. All that matters is what she's going to think you meant. The tone of that email was professional. It's like the letters I send to opposing lawyers - we call them "Demand Letters". It was harsh and insensitive. Certainly NOT the kind of letter you send to a woman you are trying to date!

Whatever happened to love letters? Sending a demand letter to a girl you like... like she's a professional acquaintance. It's not exactly likely to inspire trust or confidence in you. Honest or not... it was a bit of a slap in the face.

And it left that impression whether you wanted it to or not.

But I almost have to believe it left the impression you wanted it to leave.

I have to admit, a modicum of physical affection would go a long way towards showing me that she cares about me...but I listed other ways she could show it too.

Why don't you let her be herself and show affection (if she feels it) in her own way? Maybe you could try finding out what her own way is.

I see you expecting her to reciprocate in certain ways. I don't see you trying to find out if there is some way she would prefer showing it.

I also see you expecting her to do things to reassure you of her affections. But what if she isn't sure of her affections yet? Maybe because she's unsure of yours.

And that email you sent.... Alexei - that is the LAST thing that will reassure her that you have any feelings for her worth reciprocating.

I'm sorry, why do you expect me to be the one who doesn't care how much effort he has to put in to see a girl, when she isn't expected to lift a finger? Isn't this a two-way street? That's my whole dilemma here. I don't mind bending over backwards for a girl, but I WON'T do it for a girl who shows zero appreciation or reciprocation in terms of demonstrating that she cares just as much about me.

See, this is the problem, imo, with dating mentalities. You're only giving to get. At least, that's the way you're coming across.

You've been on 3 dates. She keeps going out with you for some reason. Now, I can't vouch for her... she could be a harpie for all I know. But you're expecting a certain kind of thing from her (physical affection) in exchange for what you've done. As if it were a partnership contract instead of a relationship. Maybe she's trying to show you but you're too hung up on your expectations to see it.

I am not demanding that this girl let me grope her or stick my tongue down her throat...I don't even want to kiss her yet!

Hey, I believe you. But that doesn't mean that your email to her didn't leave her with that impression about you. It came across that way.

I do desire physical affection from her, but I'm willing to wait for when she's ready.

Then why are you all fussed about it? Why did you send her that email? Why did you bring it up? If you're really willing to wait until she's ready... then why is it an issue?

All I want is for her to show me that she's at least as invested as I am, that she's willing to put in some time and effort just like I am. Otherwise, I am totally justified in making the conclusion that "she's just not that into me."

Hey, she's been on 3 dates with you. That's time and effort. You've acknowledged that she doesn't have money or means of transportation. So you need to accept that if you are going to have a relationship with this girl, you're going to be spending the most money. If you really want to spend time with *her*, then this part shouldn't even phase you.

What it really sounds like to me is: You're not really that into her. You were, but then you dated her a bit and the interest is fading. And now you're trying to find an excuse/reason to dump her but you feel guilty about it. So you've put the "ball in her court", so to speak. But that's just the impression I'm getting. I could be wrong.

Have you gotten any sort of response from the email you sent?

 

[traingosorry]

I totally get you - I do. I don't exactly work the way this girl does and there are many of us out there who feel the same way you do BUT this girl obviously functions a little differently. I mean even just reading your OP I was annoyed by her and I shouldn't have been because everyone has their reasons for going at the pace they do.

Hopefully she comes to her senses and will say something - you deserve it.

And on another note - she was a flight attendant? She should be prepared for all kinds of come-ons from men! Maybe she was hoping for something different from you?

It's becoming apparent to me that this is tough for a lot of women to understand. It's a much bigger danger for guys when we sense a woman is just using us for the money, time and entertainment we can show them. If she is very cold towards us physically, spends no effort to be with us, and is essentially expecting everything to be brought to her on a platter all for the "pleasure of her company", how on earth could we be expected to believe a girl like this has good intentions?

Again, I am not demanding physical affection from her right now. I have not even tried to kiss her other than on the cheek...something she said was fine with her and that she even called me back to do! I'm not some ogre, so please don't paint me like that. I see very little empathy on the side of women here. It's really different on the guy's side.

You know what, I'll even go a little further...I will not wait forever for this girl to warm up to me. I WILL wait. But not forever. There will reach a certain point where I have to conclude that she's either using me or has unpassable physical intimacy issues. Sorry ladies, that's just how it is for guys. You can't expect to have a guy treat you like gold then treat him like bronze in return. If it really takes you ten dates to even allow a man to put your arm around him in the most innocent way possible, you shouldn't be dating.

 

[traingosorry]

What it really sounds like to me is: You're not really that into her. You were, but then you dated her a bit and the interest is fading. And now you're trying to find an excuse/reason to dump her but you feel guilty about it. So you've put the "ball in her court", so to speak. But that's just the impression I'm getting. I could be wrong.

I don't think this is the case right now, but I can definitely see him getting put off by all her inaction and her seemingly emotionless gameface.

 

[sunshineray]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you that you need and deserve balance in a relationship. However, I think the email was completely out of line. Instead of speaking to her about the true root of the problem, the email seemed demanding and critical... and really created no open dialogue. I would be completely turned off. You have no idea why she isn't warming up to you physically... and there is a good chance she could be scared out of her mind to get close to you. And now you have slammed the door shut of your relationship.

Let me let you in on a little secret. Most women want to be pursued. Especially if we have been hurt badly in the past. Being pursued helps us know we are safe. You have essentially thrown all of this responsibility on her... when she is potentially really scared.

I think you could have taken a much different approach. Instead of telling her if she wants to pretty much ever to see you again that she has to call you and plan things and find her own transportation, I think it would have been much more effective if you had said, "So since I planned our last date, I'm going to let you plan our next one." And with the physical stuff, maybe just let her know that if you do anything that makes her feel uncomfortable that she should let you know. Maybe even go as far as asking her to let you know when she is ready to kiss. This is true open communication. The email you sent was demanding and makes me wonder if you are ready to have a relationship if so much drama has arisen from something so small and minute already.

 

[AlexeiKaramazov]

It doesn't matter what you meant. All that matters is what she's going to think you meant. The tone of that email was professional. It's like the letters I send to opposing lawyers - we call them "Demand Letters". It was harsh and insensitive. Certainly NOT the kind of letter you send to a woman you are trying to date!

I've already talked to her about this stuff in person and it hasn't seemed to make a difference. Basically, I feel like that kind of statement is the only option I have left, the only thing that seems like it could get through to her that her attitude really upsets me.

Why don't you let her be herself and show affection (if she feels it) in her own way? Maybe you could try finding out what her own way is.

I see you expecting her to reciprocate in certain ways. I don't see you trying to find out if there is some way she would prefer showing it.

I also see you expecting her to do things to reassure you of her affections. But what if she isn't sure of her affections yet? Maybe because she's unsure of yours.

Again, I'm not trying to demand physical affection from her, I'm expecting ANY kind of affection. She has no reason to be unsure of my affections, since I have spent hours in the car, paid for everything, planned out romantic outings and things to make her feel special, complimented her many times on her looks as well as other things...just how much more is a guy supposed to do to show he likes her? Meanwhile, all she's done is accompany me to these things. She has not initiated anything, I think I've received one compliment from her on the first date, it felt obligatory...so basically she's been treating me like a friend and not a potential lover. This don't jive.

See, this is the problem, imo, with dating mentalities. You're only giving to get. At least, that's the way you're coming across.

You've been on 3 dates. She keeps going out with you for some reason. Now, I can't vouch for her... she could be a harpie for all I know. But you're expecting a certain kind of thing from her (physical affection) in exchange for what you've done. As if it were a partnership contract instead of a relationship. Maybe she's trying to show you but you're too hung up on your expectations to see it.

I understand that you shouldn't be selfish when dating, but where's the line between being selfless and getting used? This is another thing where I don't think you're understanding just what it can be like for guys who have material things to offer that girls may latch onto, and then the guy is just getting used for what he can do for her. If she doesn't show me she's invested in spending time with me, how on earth can I tell if she's using me or not?

Then why are you all fussed about it? Why did you send her that email? Why did you bring it up? If you're really willing to wait until she's ready... then why is it an issue?

I am willing to wait for physical affection, but what I'm expecting from her is not that. I will NOT wait for her to demonstrate in some way that she cares about me. That's what a relationship is all about!

Hey, she's been on 3 dates with you. That's time and effort. You've acknowledged that she doesn't have money or means of transportation. So you need to accept that if you are going to have a relationship with this girl, you're going to be spending the most money. If you really want to spend time with *her*, then this part shouldn't even phase you.

Are you really equating simply showing up for the date to driving 40+ miles back and forth for every date, picking up and dropping off, buying everything, spending time at home planning dates, learning songs, etc.? I've said this before in essence, it's not fair for her to expect that her mere presence is some kind of great reward for me. She's got my presence, and I've got hers. But I'm putting a lot more into it and don't feel like she understands that.

What it really sounds like to me is: You're not really that into her. You were, but then you dated her a bit and the interest is fading. And now you're trying to find an excuse/reason to dump her but you feel guilty about it. So you've put the "ball in her court", so to speak. But that's just the impression I'm getting. I could be wrong.

Have you gotten any sort of response from the email you sent?

I am into her. I really like her, we have a great time, we can talk about anything...laugh about everything, the conversation never runs dry. But I have to admit part of me wants this to be over, because this causes me a lot of stress (I'm even posting from work right now when I normally would never do that!), precisely because I care for her and don't want to be giving my care to someone who doesn't give it back.

No response to the e-mail so far. I think I will get a response. Normally she waits until she wakes up in the middle of the night to send me an e-mail but lately she says she's been sleeping through the night and doesn't answer until the next day. I think at the least if she wants it to be over she'll let me know, but if I never get another message from her I'll take that as a sign.

 

[Tamara224]

I've already talked to her about this stuff in person and it hasn't seemed to make a difference. Basically, I feel like that kind of statement is the only option I have left, the only thing that seems like it could get through to her that her attitude really upsets me.

You've been on three dates and you feel that you are in a position to bring about a change in her attitude?!

Wow.

Again, I'm not trying to demand physical affection from her, I'm expecting ANY kind of affection. She has no reason to be unsure of my affections, since I have spent hours in the car, paid for everything, planned out romantic outings and things to make her feel special, complimented her many times on her looks as well as other things...just how much more is a guy supposed to do to show he likes her?

None of those things prove to a girl that a guy actually likes her. Nor do they prove he is trustworthy, honest, decent or of good character. That's what I'm trying to say.

Men count up the cost in their heads and say "See, I proved I love her."

Women count up the cost in their heads and say "See, he's trying to buy me."

The fact that you've kept track of all this stuff and CONTINUE to act like the cost of fuel and dates has some bearing on your character just goes to show that you are missing the point!

She has no way of knowing if what you say is true. She doesn't know you well enough yet. That kind of knowledge takes a little time. Some women take longer than others to decide if they can trust a guy.

You can't just say "I'm trustworthy" and expect that to have any impact.

And when your actions could be construed several ways (i.e. you might be trying to buy her, sleep with her and dump her) you can't cast her off just because she's not impressed with your displays of "undying affection" .

Meanwhile, all she's done is accompany me to these things. She has not initiated anything, I think I've received one compliment from her on the first date, it felt obligatory...so basically she's been treating me like a friend and not a potential lover. This don't jive.

Right, lets repeat it again... She isn't giving you what you expect and it irritates you.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe she needs to be your friend before she can be your lover?

I understand that you shouldn't be selfish when dating, but where's the line between being selfless and getting used?

You know, it's just sad. This betrays your true attitude. You think that going on a date is you doing a bunch of work and her getting a free meal for "nothing".

Do you enjoy spending time with her or not? Isn't that reward enough for you?

If it's not... you're not that into her, imo.

There is no line between being selfless and getting used. Selfless people will get used. But since they're so selfless, they don't care.

This is another thing where I don't think you're understanding just what it can be like for guys who have material things to offer that girls may latch onto, and then the guy is just getting used for what he can do for her. If she doesn't show me she's invested in spending time with me, how on earth can I tell if she's using me or not?

Well, when she starts asking you for rides when you're not on a date; when she starts asking you to come over and fix things for her; when she asks to borrow money; etc, etc, etc.

Going on a date with you and letting you pay is not taking advantage of you.

Seriously, what *is* she supposed to do? She doesn't have a car, she lives with her parents. If you want an independent woman... then find one who doesn't live with her parents.

But don't take the woman and expect to change her into someone she's not.

I am willing to wait for physical affection, but what I'm expecting from her is not that. I will NOT wait for her to demonstrate in some way that she cares about me. That's what a relationship is all about!

After 3 dates? Come on man, be reasonable. She may need some time.

You keep saying you would accept some other "demonstration" - Like what?

Are you really equating simply showing up for the date to driving 40+ miles back and forth for every date, picking up and dropping off, buying everything, spending time at home planning dates, learning songs, etc.?

Yes, I am. Do you think she did nothing in anticipation of the date? How long do you suppose she spent on her hair and makeup? Deciding what to wear? Shaving her legs, moisturizing and manicuring? All so she'd look pretty for you.

And the learning the song thing was a bit OTT.

I've said this before in essence, it's not fair for her to expect that her mere presence is some kind of great reward for me.

What makes you think she expects that?

All I've seen is that she is a bit reticent in displaying affection after only 3 dates. And you whining about it.

She's got my presence, and I've got hers. But I'm putting a lot more into it and don't feel like she understands that.

And here's the thing... The "lot more" that you're putting into it is probably exactly why she is hesitant to get close to you. You're pushing her.

In the back of your head you keep in mind how much you're doing. You've tallied it up and now you think you've "earned" something.

I am into her. I really like her, we have a great time, we can talk about anything...laugh about everything, the conversation never runs dry.

Well, then why can't you just enjoy it and quit pushing her away?

But I have to admit part of me wants this to be over, because this causes me a lot of stress (I'm even posting from work right now when I normally would never do that!), precisely because I care for her and don't want to be giving my care to someone who doesn't give it back.

Maybe you're scared. Maybe you're pushing her away because you're afraid.

No response to the e-mail so far. I think I will get a response. Normally she waits until she wakes up in the middle of the night to send me an e-mail but lately she says she's been sleeping through the night and doesn't answer until the next day. I think at the least if she wants it to be over she'll let me know, but if I never get another message from her I'll take that as a sign.

Yeah, a BIG sign.

 

[Blank123]

Well folks, I don't see why the e-mail I sent should be such a negative to a girl...if she really is interested in me like she says. I thought I phrased myself well....here's what I said:




Frankly, if this kind of open, honest communication is a dealbreaker for her...then that's a dealbreaker for me. This is how I feel, and if she can't handle it I really don't want to date someone so insecure and selfish. I said nothing of physical contact in this message, because that's not what it's about. It's about her treating me as well as I treat her.

well at least now she's free to find someone who accepts her for who she is and who isn't so desperate to move things along faster than she's comfortable with.

seriously dude... for your next gf (because i don't see a chance in hell this one will have anything to do with you after such a rude email) you have to realize that women don't have to move as fast as you want them to and that they are their own people. They're not here to make you feel good. You've known her for a month. you've only met her a few times in real life this is supposed to be the wooing stage the part where you just get to know one another and see if everything you've thought about them is actually true since the majority of your contact could have been a complete lie, and 3 meetings isn't exactly enough time to figure that out. but any chance you had to win her trust or her affection has been thrown out the window.

 

[AlexeiKaramazov]

You've been on three dates and you feel that you are in a position to bring about a change in her attitude?!

Wow.

And why shouldn't I be? It's up to her whether or not she changes, all I can do is bring it up. This is called communication.

None of those things prove to a girl that a guy actually likes her. Nor do they prove he is trustworthy, honest, decent or of good character. That's what I'm trying to say.

If that doesn't prove it, then the girl is impossible to please. We've been doing this for months now and I have never acted like anything other than a gentleman. I do not deserve this distrust. Frankly, any girl who is that suspicious has issues that should be worked out before dating anybody. I have given mountains of evidence that I like spending time with her and am not interested in simply taking advantage of her. The guys who do that kind of thing would've bailed long ago! Whereas she's given me basically zero evidence to ease my suspicions that she's using me. She doesn't do a single thing to make it easier to be with me.

Men count up the cost in their heads and say "See, I proved I love her."

Women count up the cost in their heads and say "See, he's trying to buy me."

The fact that you've kept track of all this stuff and CONTINUE to act like the cost of fuel and dates has some bearing on your character just goes to show that you are missing the point!

Again, if all this time, effort, caring, money, etc. isn't enough to show a girl you care, what exactly is supposed to do it? Do you expect men to jump to obey a girl's every whim? Sorry, no girl really wants that kind of doormat, not unless she just wants to use him. And I certainly refuse to be one.

She has no way of knowing if what you say is true. She doesn't know you well enough yet. That kind of knowledge takes a little time. Some women take longer than others to decide if they can trust a guy.

You can't just say "I'm trustworthy" and expect that to have any impact.

And when your actions could be construed several ways (i.e. you might be trying to buy her, sleep with her and dump her) you can't cast her off just because she's not impressed with your displays of "undying affection" .

Sorry, still not buying this. I've been nothing but a gentleman. The few attempts I've made to get closer to her have been quite innocent, nothing going any further than an arm around her. And when she didn't want that, I backed off. You can't peg me as that kind of guy, because I have demonstrated over and over to her that I am not that guy.

Right, lets repeat it again... She isn't giving you what you expect and it irritates you.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe she needs to be your friend before she can be your lover?

This is definitely a female attitude. Women might say this but they don't want a guy who will be just like a gal pal. They want a man, and I will not be a sympathetic ear before I will be a desirable man to a woman. You can and should have both romance and friendship, but one has to take priority.

You know, it's just sad. This betrays your true attitude. You think that going on a date is you doing a bunch of work and her getting a free meal for "nothing".

Do you enjoy spending time with her or not? Isn't that reward enough for you?

If it's not... you're not that into her, imo.

It is...like I said, as long as I had some reassurance that she actually appreciated what I do to be with her, I wouldn't really care that I had to go the extra mile. But again, she shows nothing to indicate this even when I tell her it's a problem. This comes down to love languages, and I have flat out told her she is not communicating in mine and that I need to hear from her. It's not happening.

There is no line between being selfless and getting used. Selfless people will get used. But since they're so selfless, they don't care.

I disagree. Letting yourself be used isn't selfless, it's self-loathing. I have way too much respect for myself to let somebody take advantage of my sincerity. I certainly don't need a girl enough that I will consent to be with one who doesn't really care about me.

Well, when she starts asking you for rides when you're not on a date; when she starts asking you to come over and fix things for her; when she asks to borrow money; etc, etc, etc.

This is true...she hasn't asked for stuff like this, and if she had that would be a clear signal that she's a user.

Seriously, what *is* she supposed to do? She doesn't have a car, she lives with her parents. If you want an independent woman... then find one who doesn't live with her parents.

But don't take the woman and expect to change her into someone she's not.

I might do just that (find someone who's on equal footing jobwise, etc.). But I do not find it unreasonable at all to ask her that she change her behavior a little bit in order to make me feel more at ease with her. She's already asked me to do this! She's telling me to slow down and go at her pace instead of mine. I'm willing to change, and to do that. Why not ask the same of her?

Yes, I am. Do you think she did nothing in anticipation of the date? How long do you suppose she spent on her hair and makeup? Deciding what to wear? Shaving her legs, moisturizing and manicuring? All so she'd look pretty for you.

And the learning the song thing was a bit OTT.

Why is the song thing OTT but spending ridiculous amounts of time preparing isn't? I'd love being with her no matter what she looked like, but I would never put down the time that she spends doing that. Nor should she disrespect the way I express myself in trying to do something special musically for her.

And here's the thing... The "lot more" that you're putting into it is probably exactly why she is hesitant to get close to you. You're pushing her.

In the back of your head you keep in mind how much you're doing. You've tallied it up and now you think you've "earned" something.

It's not a stretch to say that I've certainly demonstrated already that I'm a good guy with good intentions who'll do a lot for her. And it's not unreasonable to expect that she show me that she cares about me as well. I've certainly earned something, and if she's the kind of girl to string me along and act like my affections mean nothing to her, then I don't want to see her again.

Maybe you're scared. Maybe you're pushing her away because you're afraid.

I AM afraid, just like she says she's afraid of getting too close too fast. But I'm willing to push past my comfort zone and give her the benefit of the doubt, continue to see her even though I have no evidence she's not using me. But she won't push past her comfort zone. See why I feel it's one-sided?

 

[Blank123]

ummm.... maybe clear something up for us...

earlier you told me...

Well we met on the net but had been e-mailing each other every day for about a month and talked several times on the phone for several hours before actually meeting, so we really know a lot about each other. In terms of knowledge of the other person, it seems like we've been on ten dates rather than three.

but now you're saying...

If that doesn't prove it, then the girl is impossible to please. We've been doing this for months now and I have never acted like anything other than a gentleman. I do not deserve this distrust. Frankly, any girl who is that suspicious has issues that should be worked out before dating anybody. I have given mountains of evidence that I like spending time with her and am not interested in simply taking advantage of her. The guys who do that kind of thing would've bailed long ago! Whereas she's given me basically zero evidence to ease my suspicions that she's using me. She doesn't do a single thing to make it easier to be with me.

were you lying then or now?

 

[AlexeiKaramazov]

ummm.... maybe clear something up for us...

earlier you told me...



but now you're saying...



were you lying then or now?

What's supposed to be a lie, exactly? The timeline? We'd been e-mailing for like a month before we ever met, and we met weeks ago. It's been about two months since we met.

 

[Tamara224]

And why shouldn't I be? It's up to her whether or not she changes, all I can do is bring it up. This is called communication.

Well there's your problem. Dr. Laura always says this is usually the problem women have... but I guess men have it too.

You can't change her. If you don't like her the way she is, you should move on.

If that doesn't prove it, then the girl is impossible to please. We've been doing this for months now and I have never acted like anything other than a gentleman. I do not deserve this distrust. Frankly, any girl who is that suspicious has issues that should be worked out before dating anybody. I have given mountains of evidence that I like spending time with her and am not interested in simply taking advantage of her. The guys who do that kind of thing would've bailed long ago! Whereas she's given me basically zero evidence to ease my suspicions that she's using me. She doesn't do a single thing to make it easier to be with me.

Okay, if you don't have the patience for her, then you should move on.

But it's not all her fault that you aren't willing to perservere a little and see if she opens up to you.

Again, if all this time, effort, caring, money, etc. isn't enough to show a girl you care, what exactly is supposed to do it?

Oh for crying out loud. Really?! How about NOT sending an insensitive "demand letter" to her after 3 dates?

Do you expect men to jump to obey a girl's every whim? Sorry, no girl really wants that kind of doormat, not unless she just wants to use him. And I certainly refuse to be one.

This is the reason I hate talking to guys in this forum about this kind of thing. You guys jump to all sorts of conclusions and make women out to be evil all the time but get angry at the women who hold back a little.

Who said anything about obeying her every whim?

What whims has this girl asked you to obey? What has she asked of you? Anything?

How about just chilling and waiting patiently? You say you can wait but then you rant about how you think you've proven yourself and she's just using you. Well, that's not waiting... that's getting impatient and giving up.

Sorry, still not buying this. I've been nothing but a gentleman. The few attempts I've made to get closer to her have been quite innocent, nothing going any further than an arm around her. And when she didn't want that, I backed off. You can't peg me as that kind of guy, because I have demonstrated over and over to her that I am not that guy.

I don't want to "peg" you as that kind of guy. I'm just trying to tell you how you're coming across.

If you could think that your email to her was tactfull and appropriate then I think it's safe to assume that what you think comes across as gentlemanly may not being making that impression on her.

Just think about it.

You don't know what's in her head. You don't know how she interprets your actions. What to you might be the most romantic gesture ever, to her may seem pushy or manipulative.

She needs time to get to know you before she can trust you.

This is definitely a female attitude. Women might say this but they don't want a guy who will be just like a gal pal. They want a man, and I will not be a sympathetic ear before I will be a desirable man to a woman. You can and should have both romance and friendship, but one has to take priority.

This is definitely a male attitude. Is it working out for you? Do you understand this girl? Or is she tying you into knots trying to figure out what the heck is in her mind?

If her priority is friendship and you keep pushing her to change it to romance...... She's not going to like you for it.

And, telling women that what they really want is the opposite of what they say they want.... Not a good idea.

And BTW: you only need to have a "priority" if two things are in conflict or mutually exclusive. If my family is my priority, I choose it over work.

So, unless friendship and romance are in conflict, there isn't any need for a "priority".

It is...like I said, as long as I had some reassurance that she actually appreciated what I do to be with her, I wouldn't really care that I had to go the extra mile. But again, she shows nothing to indicate this even when I tell her it's a problem. This comes down to love languages, and I have flat out told her she is not communicating in mine and that I need to hear from her. It's not happening.

Why don't you try communicating in her language then? I gotta be honest... the mental impression I have of you right now is a child stomping his foot, saying "me, me, me."

You want it your way. And it doesn't seem to me that you've even attempted to understand her.

I disagree. Letting yourself be used isn't selfless, it's self-loathing.

That's not really what I said. I said that selfless people don't notice they're being used. I'm not saying being used is the definition of selflessness.

I have way too much respect for myself to let somebody take advantage of my sincerity. I certainly don't need a girl enough that I will consent to be with one who doesn't really care about me.

Good. Who wants you to be?

All I've been saying is that you haven't given the girl a chance to come to care for you.

This is true...she hasn't asked for stuff like this, and if she had that would be a clear signal that she's a user.

Exactly.

I might do just that (find someone who's on equal footing jobwise, etc.). But I do not find it unreasonable at all to ask her that she change her behavior a little bit in order to make me feel more at ease with her. She's already asked me to do this! She's telling me to slow down and go at her pace instead of mine. I'm willing to change, and to do that. Why not ask the same of her?

She wants you to slow down, so in exchange for that she should speed up for you?

Why is the song thing OTT but spending ridiculous amounts of time preparing isn't? I'd love being with her no matter what she looked like, but I would never put down the time that she spends doing that. Nor should she disrespect the way I express myself in trying to do something special musically for her.

Um, because pulling out your guitar and serenading her can be a little, well, pushy. It's the ultimate romantic gesture - it's what you do when you've royally angered your girlfriend and you need to say you're sorry.

If she invited you over to her house to watch her get dressed and put on makeup, that would be creepy too.

It's not a stretch to say that I've certainly demonstrated already that I'm a good guy with good intentions who'll do a lot for her.

Hey, man, I want to believe you.

But there's no guarantee that you've given her this impression as clearly as you've given it to yourself.

And there's more to it than whether you're a "good guy".

And it's not unreasonable to expect that she show me that she cares about me as well. I've certainly earned something, and if she's the kind of girl to string me along and act like my affections mean nothing to her, then I don't want to see her again.

Yeah, but you're leaving out the middle ground. Maybe she doesn't know how she feels for you. Maybe she likes you but needs more time to actually fall in love. Just because she's a slow mover doesn't mean she is stringing you along.

I AM afraid, just like she says she's afraid of getting too close too fast. But I'm willing to push past my comfort zone and give her the benefit of the doubt, continue to see her even though I have no evidence she's not using me. But she won't push past her comfort zone. See why I feel it's one-sided?

Wow. Guilty until proven innocent, huh? Why don't you assume she's NOT using you until you have proof that she is?

Maybe she needs someone to ease her out of her comfort zone? Rather than pushing.

 

[Blank123]

What's supposed to be a lie, exactly? The timeline? We'd been e-mailing for like a month before we ever met, and we met weeks ago. It's been about two months since we met.

2 months since you met in person or since you started talking?

even if it was 2 months since you met in person. dude it was 3 dates... if you can't understand people on the fundamental level that some take longer to warm up to than others than i think you'e probably going to be alone for a very long time. Espcialliy if that email is how you "communicate" your concerns.

 

[Annova]

Did she ever reply?

 

[AlexeiKaramazov]

Well there's your problem. Dr. Laura always says this is usually the problem women have... but I guess men have it too.

You can't change her. If you don't like her the way she is, you should move on.

See, this is where you're wrong. People CAN change. I can change, on my own or when someone asks me to. I see no reason why I shouldn't expect the same of her.

Okay, if you don't have the patience for her, then you should move on.

But it's not all her fault that you aren't willing to perservere a little and see if she opens up to you.

I'm definitely willing to persevere, not forever, but for a while. I've made that clear. But just as she's requiring some things from me, I'm requiring some things from her. Seems pretty fair to me.

This is the reason I hate talking to guys in this forum about this kind of thing. You guys jump to all sorts of conclusions and make women out to be evil all the time but get angry at the women who hold back a little.

Who said anything about obeying her every whim?

What whims has this girl asked you to obey? What has she asked of you? Anything?

She's asked that I go at her pace, and not mine. I'm willing to do that, and it's called compromise. I've asked that she make an effort to try and meet me in the middle on some things like transportation, etc. and so far she's done nothing.

How about just chilling and waiting patiently? You say you can wait but then you rant about how you think you've proven yourself and she's just using you. Well, that's not waiting... that's getting impatient and giving up.

If I was the type to give up it would've been over already. I'm not. I'm a forgiving, empathetic person. Do you think I can't see her side of it at all? I can. All I want to do is make sure my feelings are understood. I don't like keeping things bottled inside, and she should know how I feel if something is bothering me.

If you could think that your email to her was tactfull and appropriate then I think it's safe to assume that what you think comes across as gentlemanly may not being making that impression on her.

I don't see what's so offensive about my e-mail. I laid out my feelings quite plainly. I told her that I did care about her, but that I felt something wasn't quite right in the balance of our relationship. I did not even hint at requirements of physical affection but actually specifically mentioned things she could do to put me at ease. It's up to her to respond and tell me if she thinks my feelings are reasonable, if she feels she can do what I ask.

You don't know what's in her head. You don't know how she interprets your actions. What to you might be the most romantic gesture ever, to her may seem pushy or manipulative.

She needs time to get to know you before she can trust you.

Exactly, I don't know what's in her head. And she's not telling me. I've been telling her exactly what's in my head, and all you do is accuse me of being insensitive and demanding.

If her priority is friendship and you keep pushing her to change it to romance...... She's not going to like you for it.

If her priority is friendship, she should've communicated this to me and we would not have gone past the first date. I don't date someone so I can just have a friend. I date someone I consider to have the potential to be my wife someday. I would never want to marry someone who treated me like a brother from day one. We've both agreed that "just being friends" isn't desirable so if it ends here that's the end of any kind of relationship between us.

And, telling women that what they really want is the opposite of what they say they want.... Not a good idea.

Well, sometimes the truth hurts, doesn't it? Face it, both men and women will often say things that are completely at odds with their actions. I'm not interested in the facade, I'm interested in the truth.

And BTW: you only need to have a "priority" if two things are in conflict or mutually exclusive. If my family is my priority, I choose it over work.

So, unless friendship and romance are in conflict, there isn't any need for a "priority".

Friendship and romance can certainly be in conflict. The former can easily cancel out the latter. Ever heard of "The Friend Zone"? This is every guy's worst nightmare.

Why don't you try communicating in her language then? I gotta be honest... the mental impression I have of you right now is a child stomping his foot, saying "me, me, me."

You want it your way. And it doesn't seem to me that you've even attempted to understand her.

What about my actions betrays a lack of understanding? I understand her desire to move more slowly and guess what...that's what I'm doing. I've agreed to move at her pace. She's the one that refuses to understand what I have clearly communicated to her, that I don't feel she really values our time together and that there are ways in which she could show that without violating her own physical boundaries.

That's not really what I said. I said that selfless people don't notice they're being used. I'm not saying being used is the definition of selflessness.

Well, it sounds like selfless is just a synonym for blind, then. It makes no sense to run willy-nilly into a relationship without evaluating what the basis for it is, and what your priorities are. Someone who doesn't even bother to understand the other person's motivations for seeing them sounds more self-involved than selfless to me.

Good. Who wants you to be?

All I've been saying is that you haven't given the girl a chance to come to care for you.

I am giving her a chance. I've told her plainly just how she can show it, and if she wants to do that I'd love to continue seeing her and to foot the bill for everything, plan things. I just need a little back from her.

Um, because pulling out your guitar and serenading her can be a little, well, pushy. It's the ultimate romantic gesture - it's what you do when you've royally angered your girlfriend and you need to say you're sorry.

If she invited you over to her house to watch her get dressed and put on makeup, that would be creepy too.

That's one woman's interpretation, I guess. I certainly didn't treat it like a grand gesture, just something I thought I could spend a little time on and do something special for her. Of course I see she didn't really care about it at all, she even asked me if I was "embarrassed" to be doing it. Shame on me for trying to do something nice for her.

Yeah, but you're leaving out the middle ground. Maybe she doesn't know how she feels for you. Maybe she likes you but needs more time to actually fall in love. Just because she's a slow mover doesn't mean she is stringing you along.

True. It doesn't mean she's NOT stringing me along, either. And I've said again and again, all I ask for is a little reassurance on her part.

Wow. Guilty until proven innocent, huh? Why don't you assume she's NOT using you until you have proof that she is?

Maybe she needs someone to ease her out of her comfort zone? Rather than pushing.

Probably for the same reason she doesn't assume I'm not trying to use her physically until she has proof that I am. Of course I've given her conclusive proof that I don't want to push her in that direction. I didn't try to put my arm around her again after she was cold to me the first time. She's given me no proof that she isn't using me, but ignores the evidence I present to her that I'm really a good guy.

 

[AlexeiKaramazov]

2 months since you met in person or since you started talking?

even if it was 2 months since you met in person. dude it was 3 dates... if you can't understand people on the fundamental level that some take longer to warm up to than others than i think you'e probably going to be alone for a very long time. Espcialliy if that email is how you "communicate" your concerns.

Ahh, it only took ten pages for the sweeping "you'll be alone forever!" comments to come out. Thanks for the completely ungrounded judgment ! You don't know me. Don't pretend you can just from a few paragraphs on a forum. I'm not perfect, but I'm not nearly the buffoon you make me out to be, and you know what? Just because you do something in a certain way doesn't mean it's fair to expect everyone else to do it that way.

Also, she hasn't replied. I don't expect to get one. Guess I'm just a big bad guy for being as plain and straightforward as I could! Next time I'll be sure to play those head games everyone's so fond of.

 

[Tamara224]

See, this is where you're wrong. People CAN change. I can change, on my own or when someone asks me to. I see no reason why I shouldn't expect the same of her.

You don't see any reason why she shouldn't change at your whim?

Really?

I'm definitely willing to persevere, not forever, but for a while. I've made that clear. But just as she's requiring some things from me, I'm requiring some things from her. Seems pretty fair to me.

What is she *requiring* from you?

She's asked that I go at her pace, and not mine. I'm willing to do that, and it's called compromise. I've asked that she make an effort to try and meet me in the middle on some things like transportation, etc. and so far she's done nothing.

Okay this is getting ridiculous. You said earlier that she doesn't have a car and transportation is difficult.

Now you're upset because she's not "compromising" in that area.

What would you like her to do?

If I was the type to give up it would've been over already. I'm not. I'm a forgiving, empathetic person.

Yeah, and your email to her really demonstrated these qualities. (NOT).

Do you think I can't see her side of it at all? I can. All I want to do is make sure my feelings are understood. I don't like keeping things bottled inside, and she should know how I feel if something is bothering me.

I think you can't see her side at all. At least, that's what's coming across here.

There is a way to express your feelings without laying blame on her for them.

Instead of demanding she do certain things... try saying something like "I'm feeling pretty vulnerable right now. I can't tell if you like me as much as I like you." And let her respond in her own way.

I don't see what's so offensive about my e-mail.

And that is precisely the problem. Despite the fact that several women have told you that the email was too demanding, insensitive and cold - you still don't see what's wrong with it.

Well, how about: It was insensitive, demanding and the tone was more professional than friendly.

I laid out my feelings quite plainly.

Did you mean to leave the impression that you have kept a running total of the amount of money you are spending on her and that you feel you've earned some physical demonstration from her?

Because that's the impression you left. So, if that's what you are feeling, then yes, you laid out your feelings quite plainly.

But if you're feeling something else - then you didn't lay them out quite plainly.

I told her that I did care about her, but that I felt something wasn't quite right in the balance of our relationship. I did not even hint at requirements of physical affection but actually specifically mentioned things she could do to put me at ease. It's up to her to respond and tell me if she thinks my feelings are reasonable, if she feels she can do what I ask.

Yeah. Ultimatums after the 3rd date... not such a good idea.

You made demands of her. You said over and over again that you want things on your terms. You said "I want," "I strongly suggest", and "If this is too much for you, I'm going to have to conclude that you don't really care very much for me after all and that we probably shouldn't see each other anymore."

And this:

"This is simply what I feel must happen if we are to proceed any further with a healthy relationship of this kind."

What you feel MUST happen?! There's no compromise in there. There's no attempting to understand her. There's no hint of affection. It's cold and unfeeling.

What you basically told her is "do what I want you to do or hit the road."

Exactly, I don't know what's in her head. And she's not telling me. I've been telling her exactly what's in my head, and all you do is accuse me of being insensitive and demanding.

You are being insensitive and demanding.

If she's not telling you what's in her head it's probably because she's guarding her heart a little. She's not comfortable enough with you yet to get that intimate.

And do you really expect her to be swept off her feet when you say things like: "For a while, I want you to be initiating things between us. I will not e-mail you or IM you or call you. If you wish to do these things, you can e-mail, IM me or call me and I will respond (if I'm able)."

"If I'm able"?!!! Niiice. Yeah, you've really demonstrated that you care for her.

If her priority is friendship, she should've communicated this to me and we would not have gone past the first date.I don't date someone so I can just have a friend. I date someone I consider to have the potential to be my wife someday. I would never want to marry someone who treated me like a brother from day one. We've both agreed that "just being friends" isn't desirable so if it ends here that's the end of any kind of relationship between us.

Hello? Are you reading? Didn't I just say that there isn't a conflict between friendship and romance and so there's no need for a priority?

Can you not understand that most women need to be friends before they can be lovers?

Friendship is often the first step to romance. So it's not an either-or proposition.

Women want to be friends with their husbands.

And no one ever said anything about "brothers".

Well, sometimes the truth hurts, doesn't it? Face it, both men and women will often say things that are completely at odds with their actions. I'm not interested in the facade, I'm interested in the truth.

Good. Here's the truth:

That email you sent to that girl was rude, insensitive, selfish, boorish, cold, mercenary and just plain foolish.

You should be interested in that.

Friendship and romance can certainly be in conflict. The former can easily cancel out the latter. Ever heard of "The Friend Zone"? This is every guy's worst nightmare.

Okay, sometimes they can be. But not when you're actually on a "date". You skipped the "friend zone" and went straight to "romantic". But there's a certain amount of friendship that has to be the basis of any good relationship.

What about my actions betrays a lack of understanding? I understand her desire to move more slowly and guess what...that's what I'm doing.

No. You sent her a nastygram telling her that if she didn't quit dragging her feet you were going to drop her. That's not being understanding.

I've agreed to move at her pace. She's the one that refuses to understand what I have clearly communicated to her, that I don't feel she really values our time together and that there are ways in which she could show that without violating her own physical boundaries.

Like what? You still haven't offered any ideas as to what non-physical things she could do.

Well, it sounds like selfless is just a synonym for blind, then.

Are you being purposely obtuse?

It makes no sense to run willy-nilly into a relationship without evaluating what the basis for it is, and what your priorities are. Someone who doesn't even bother to understand the other person's motivations for seeing them sounds more self-involved than selfless to me.

Yes, it does. Doesn't it?

I am giving her a chance. I've told her plainly just how she can show it, and if she wants to do that I'd love to continue seeing her and to foot the bill for everything, plan things. I just need a little back from her.

Like what? If it's not footing the bill, and you are "waiting" as patiently as you claim for the physical stuff. Then what exactly would you like her to do to show how she feels about you?

That's one woman's interpretation, I guess. I certainly didn't treat it like a grand gesture, just something I thought I could spend a little time on and do something special for her. Of course I see she didn't really care about it at all, she even asked me if I was "embarrassed" to be doing it. Shame on me for trying to do something nice for her.

Oh yeah, woe is you. You're soooo misunderstood.

You're right about the guitar thing, though. It is my opinion on it. I'm sure other girls would like it just fine.

True. It doesn't mean she's NOT stringing me along, either. And I've said again and again, all I ask for is a little reassurance on her part.

Like what?

Probably for the same reason she doesn't assume I'm not trying to use her physically until she has proof that I am. Of course I've given her conclusive proof that I don't want to push her in that direction.

Conclusive proof? Give me a break. There's no such thing as conclusive proof that a man will always act in a certain way in the future.

And I don't know if this girl is holding back from you because she fears you might be a player. That was one suggestion as to her possible motivation.

She might even be holding back because she's afraid of herself.

I didn't try to put my arm around her again after she was cold to me the first time. She's given me no proof that she isn't using me, but ignores the evidence I present to her that I'm really a good guy.

What evidence?

• Driving and paying for dates doesn't count. That doesn't say anything about your character.
• Your word? You could be lying.
• Refraining from touching her again? This is a bit of evidence... but it's the kind that takes a while to mean anything (it has to be repeated a lot).

But I don't know why I've even continued this long in talking to you about it. It's obvious that you have no intention of even admitting the possibility that you messed up, or that you are wrong.

And, to top it all off, my bet is that the girl never talks to you again. So this is a pointless waste of words.

 

[latteda]

Man, sorry to hear about all the drama. It makes me super glad I'm out of the dating loop right now.

I think your concerns have been valid, although your email is probably not going to get a good response from her.

You do have to understand that a lot of women have been taught so much to make sure they find a guy who pursues them and adores them. That can be very confusing for us to know where the balance is between showing interest and yet still remaining a challenge. It's a game, and even for those who value honesty and think that games like that are stupid, there is still pressure to play them, especially for women who have been treated wrongly in the past. And it's OFTEN taken to an extreme, where women expect a man to put forth all the effort without being willing to take any initiative themselves, in order to try to determine their level of interest. I'm the first to agree that it's selfish. In any good relationship, there is give-and-take...mutual effort to aid in the development of the relationship. I don't think it's fair for a girl to make a guy constantly have to guess whether she really likes him or not...and vice versa.

My love language is physical affection, as well, and I can understand how her resistance to your initiative must have made you feel. I agree that it's a red flag that she seemed to stand offish, especially after you remarked about what her resistance communicated to you. I have gone out with guys that were extremely afraid of commitment, and I was equally as afraid of commitment, but there never seemed to be problems for either of us both initiating and reciprocating proper physical affection.

Maybe it is her personality, and you guys are just incompatible in this area. Maybe she is leading you on because she is lonely and enjoys the attention. Maybe she is just extremely, extremely scared. Truth is, we're all scared, and I think that fear gets in the way from relationships developing naturally. Expecting her not to be cautious and afraid after everything she's been through is asking too much, but expecting to see signs that she likes you enough that she is willing to at least try to face those fears for you is not expecting too much.

Your concerns are valid, I think. But next time you want to try to approach it more casually without an ultimatum, or the girl will feel way too much pressure to be something that is, for one reason or another, not coming naturally to her at the time. Maybe you could just try saying, "I am getting the impression that you are not that interested. Is something wrong?" And then if you decide that because of her cautiousness, you're not compatible, just say, "I'd like to try to work this out, but it doesn't seem like it's going to work out. Maybe we should stop seeing each other." That would be a way of giving it one last chance to learn how to resolve the issue without placing a demand on her that she doesn't feel she has the strength to fulfill.

Hope that helps. Shooting up a prayer for ya.

 

[AlexeiKaramazov]

You don't see any reason why she shouldn't change at your whim?

Really?

And why shouldn't she? Isn't that what being in a relationship is all about, compromising when you have to and celebrating things you enjoy? If you have a problem changing even when someone has explained to you what the change would mean and you think that change makes sense as something for you to do, I'd say you have narcissistic tendencies.

What is she *requiring* from you?

She's requiring that I move at her pace, despite the fact that it makes me feel uncared for by her and used. I can put up with this if it makes her feel better.

Okay this is getting ridiculous. You said earlier that she doesn't have a car and transportation is difficult.

Now you're upset because she's not "compromising" in that area.

What would you like her to do?

There are plenty of things she can do. She could ride the bus. She could get a ride with a family member (they take her out shopping and to church events all the time!). Do you honestly think it's unreasonable to expect a girl who is truly interested in me to make that kind of effort, or should it always be the man who is giving?

I think you can't see her side at all. At least, that's what's coming across here.

There is a way to express your feelings without laying blame on her for them.

Instead of demanding she do certain things... try saying something like "I'm feeling pretty vulnerable right now. I can't tell if you like me as much as I like you." And let her respond in her own way.

If I couldn't see her side, I couldn't even countenance the idea of waiting until she is more comfortable with me to get closer. But I'm willing to do exactly that. So, wrong again.

And that is precisely the problem. Despite the fact that several women have told you that the email was too demanding, insensitive and cold - you still don't see what's wrong with it.

Well, how about: It was insensitive, demanding and the tone was more professional than friendly.

Sorry, I'm not a woman. No matter how many ex post facto judgments you make, I still write like a man and I doubt I'll ever be able to express these sentiments in a perfect Woman-Approved(tm) manner. How about some pathos on your side for the fact that men and women don't think the same?

Did you mean to leave the impression that you have kept a running total of the amount of money you are spending on her and that you feel you've earned some physical demonstration from her?

Because that's the impression you left. So, if that's what you are feeling, then yes, you laid out your feelings quite plainly.

But if you're feeling something else - then you didn't lay them out quite plainly.

I didn't mean to leave that impression. I can see how it could come across like that but all the same I did not say ANYTHING about physical contact. If anything I was presenting her obvious alternatives to physical contact in terms of ways of showing affection and interest.

Yeah. Ultimatums after the 3rd date... not such a good idea.

You made demands of her. You said over and over again that you want things on your terms. You said "I want," "I strongly suggest", and "If this is too much for you, I'm going to have to conclude that you don't really care very much for me after all and that we probably shouldn't see each other anymore."

Are they really demands if I'm willing to hear her side of it and talk about it? Because I am, and we've already been through some of that. I stated my feelings, and I NEVER said that it couldn't be talked about. If she's too much of a doormat herself to stick up for what she wants to do, I can't help that.

And do you really expect her to be swept off her feet when you say things like: "For a while, I want you to be initiating things between us. I will not e-mail you or IM you or call you. If you wish to do these things, you can e-mail, IM me or call me and I will respond (if I'm able)."

"If I'm able"?!!! Niiice. Yeah, you've really demonstrated that you care for her.

What, I should tell her I'll respond any time, night or day? I can't do that, I have responsibilities. Work, school, extra curricular things, the kinds of things this girl doesn't do at all. Her days are basically empty and she still reserves her time for e-mailing me for when she wakes up in the middle of the night and has nothing better to do. And yeah, I'm much more consistent in communicating with her despite being much busier.

Hello? Are you reading? Didn't I just say that there isn't a conflict between friendship and romance and so there's no need for a priority?

Can you not understand that most women need to be friends before they can be lovers?

You're not most women. I think many women would disagree with you on this, even if they're not posting here.

That email you sent to that girl was rude, insensitive, selfish, boorish, cold, mercenary and just plain foolish.

You should be interested in that.

That's your opinion. My message was certainly straightforward and to the point, but it was honest, and direct. It was a statement of the fact that things are really going wrong here and emotional outpourings aren't going to fix it.

No. You sent her a nastygram telling her that if she didn't quit dragging her feet you were going to drop her. That's not being understanding.

What an exaggeration. I didn't even criticize her in my message. All I did was communicate the way I was feeling about how things are going, and what I thought needed to change. Your problem is that you're so quick to judge a man you won't even consider the fact that he's willing to listen to you. And through my conversations with this girl I have already shown I will listen to anything she has to say and consider it.

Like what? You still haven't offered any ideas as to what non-physical things she could do.

I have, again and again. I refuse to repeat myself if you won't pay attention in the first place.

Conclusive proof? Give me a break. There's no such thing as conclusive proof that a man will always act in a certain way in the future.

And I don't know if this girl is holding back from you because she fears you might be a player. That was one suggestion as to her possible motivation.

She might even be holding back because she's afraid of herself.

It sounds like you're intimately acquainted with trust issues. Believe it or not, not all women have these issues, and it's not a normal or good thing to have.

• Driving and paying for dates doesn't count. That doesn't say anything about your character.
• Your word? You could be lying.
• Refraining from touching her again? This is a bit of evidence... but it's the kind that takes a while to mean anything (it has to be repeated a lot).

I have put time and caring into planning things that will be fun for her, engaging her in conversation and listening to her, even and especially when she talks about things I find to be very boring and banal. I have opened doors for her, extended her every courtesy, done my best to respect her boundaries even when she doesn't communicate them to me very well. I've done everything to make sure she will have a good time, and all she's done is show up. I think this counts for something.


You are right about something though...this is going nowhere. I have never said I was totally right about everything, all I've done is try to mediate your harsh judgments into something a little less all-encompassing. I know I haven't been perfect, but neither has this girl. I think we both need to change in certain ways, but in the end it's not going to matter since I think I'll never see her again. With that in mind, I'm done defending myself in this thread since you don't seem to listen to anything I say. I won't be painted as the bad guy forever.

 

[Tamara224]

And why shouldn't she? Isn't that what being in a relationship is all about, compromising when you have to and celebrating things you enjoy? If you have a problem changing even when someone has explained to you what the change would mean and you think that change makes sense as something for you to do, I'd say you have narcissistic tendencies.

It depends on the change that is being asked, I guess.

IMO, it's narcissistic to think that after 3 dates a girl should change herself for you because you ask her to.

What if she doesn't want to change? What if it would be wrong for her to change?

She's requiring that I move at her pace, despite the fact that it makes me feel uncared for by her and used. I can put up with this if it makes her feel better.

Is her pace a problem for you or not? You keep saying you're willing to wait for her. That you can "put up" with it.... And then you turn around and hold it against her.

So far this is the ONLY thing she's asked of you - to go slower.

It's not possible for her to compromise with you on this. And you shouldn't ask her to.

Do you really want her to show affection for you that she doesn't really feel is natural? Just because you asked her to?

You say it's not a problem, that you can wait. And yet you've turned her pace into a deal breaker.

There are plenty of things she can do. She could ride the bus. She could get a ride with a family member (they take her out shopping and to church events all the time!). Do you honestly think it's unreasonable to expect a girl who is truly interested in me to make that kind of effort, or should it always be the man who is giving?

I don't think it's unreasonable at all for her to try a little if she wants to see you.

What I think is unreasonable is the way you make demands for it.

If I couldn't see her side, I couldn't even countenance the idea of waiting until she is more comfortable with me to get closer. But I'm willing to do exactly that. So, wrong again.

Um....but... you didn't wait though. You sent her a blow-off letter telling her it is your way or the highway.

That's not waiting. It's not understanding. It's demanding.

Sorry, I'm not a woman. No matter how many ex post facto judgments you make, I still write like a man and I doubt I'll ever be able to express these sentiments in a perfect Woman-Approved(tm) manner. How about some pathos on your side for the fact that men and women don't think the same?

Oh spare me. "I write like a man". What garbage.

There was this man, he's pretty well known actually, maybe you've heard of him... When he wrote letters to women, he said things like this:

Let me not to the marriage of true minds​

Admit impediments, love is not love​

Which alters when it alteration finds,​

Or bends with the remover to remove.​

O no, it is an ever-fixed mark​

That looks on tempests and is never shaken;​

It is the star to every wand'ring bark,​

Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.​

Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks​

Within his bending sickle's compass come,​

Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,​

But bears it out even to the edge of doom:​

If this be error and upon me proved,​

I never writ, nor no man ever loved.​

And Billie isn't the only man who knows how to write his sentiments in a way that causes women joy rather than sorrow.

Might I suggest some writing classes?

I didn't mean to leave that impression. I can see how it could come across like that but all the same I did not say ANYTHING about physical contact. If anything I was presenting her obvious alternatives to physical contact in terms of ways of showing affection and interest.

I know you didn't say anything about it in the email. But you said something about it previously. You stalked away from her after trying to kiss her cheek - when she tried to call you back. And the next thing she gest this email from you. Connect the dots. She did.

Are they really demands if I'm willing to hear her side of it and talk about it? Because I am, and we've already been through some of that. I stated my feelings, and I NEVER said that it couldn't be talked about. If she's too much of a doormat herself to stick up for what she wants to do, I can't help that.

Yes, they're really demands when you said things like "this is what MUST happen if we are going to have a relationship."

You left no indication that you were at all flexible. Or that you wanted to talk about it.

If you wanted to talk you should have said "I feel like we need to communicate more. I feel like I like you more than you do me. Is that true? Is there anything I can do or say to make you more comfortable with me." etc, etc.

Instead, you told her how to please you.

What, I should tell her I'll respond any time, night or day? I can't do that, I have responsibilities. Work, school, extra curricular things, the kinds of things this girl doesn't do at all.

Um. How about, "I'll respond when I can - I might be busy and not get back to you right away."

The "If" really made it seem like you were trying to make sure she knew you might not respond.

Her days are basically empty and she still reserves her time for e-mailing me for when she wakes up in the middle of the night and has nothing better to do. And yeah, I'm much more consistent in communicating with her despite being much busier.

So?

You're not most women. I think many women would disagree with you on this, even if they're not posting here.

Well, I think I have a better handle on what most women want than you do.

That's your opinion. My message was certainly straightforward and to the point, but it was honest, and direct. It was a statement of the fact that things are really going wrong here and emotional outpourings aren't going to fix it.

Um. You've been on THREE DATES!

Dates, Alex, dates. Not business meetings. If you really think that you're going to get to date a woman, possibly marry her, without any "emotional outpourings" then you're flat crazy.

And as crazy as it may sound to your limited male mind: Emotional outpourings actually DO fix things for women. Sometimes that's all we need.

What an exaggeration. I didn't even criticize her in my message. All I did was communicate the way I was feeling about how things are going, and what I thought needed to change. Your problem is that you're so quick to judge a man you won't even consider the fact that he's willing to listen to you. And through my conversations with this girl I have already shown I will listen to anything she has to say and consider it.

I'm just telling you how it came across.

I have, again and again. I refuse to repeat myself if you won't pay attention in the first place.

Sorry, I went back and looked through all your posts. And I'm still not seeing it.

You said you want her to speed up her pace and maybe pay for her share.

But when you started this thread you said those things didn't really matter to you.

So, I'm trying to get you to think outside the box - is there anything else that she might do to reassure you? (I mean, if that were an option at this point).

It sounds like you're intimately acquainted with trust issues. Believe it or not, not all women have these issues, and it's not a normal or good thing to have.

Nice try Alex, but you know we're not talking about me.

Just because I can see and understand different points of view, doesn't mean they're my own.

But it was a nice attempt at diversionary ad hominem.

I have put time and caring into planning things that will be fun for her, engaging her in conversation and listening to her, even and especially when she talks about things I find to be very boring and banal. I have opened doors for her, extended her every courtesy, done my best to respect her boundaries even when she doesn't communicate them to me very well. I've done everything to make sure she will have a good time, and all she's done is show up. I think this counts for something.

I'm really confused. Why do you like this girl? I mean, if she's so boring and just sits like a lump on a log on your dates... then what do you even care?

Or, does she carry the conversation sometimes too? Does she not do anything courteous for you? Doesn't she listen to your boring and banal stories too?

You are right about something though...this is going nowhere. I have never said I was totally right about everything, all I've done is try to mediate your harsh judgments into something a little less all-encompassing.

All-encompassing? I've only talked about you and the situation you've presented.

The email you wrote was harsh. You should know that it shouldn't be repeated.

But the truth hurts sometimes, you know.

I know I haven't been perfect, but neither has this girl. I think we both need to change in certain ways, but in the end it's not going to matter since I think I'll never see her again. With that in mind, I'm done defending myself in this thread since you don't seem to listen to anything I say. I won't be painted as the bad guy forever.

I've tried to listen to you. And I don't think you're a bad guy. I've given you the benefit of the doubt on a lot of things. I assumed you didn't want to be a jerk and so I was trying to show you how you came across as one. If you really don't want to be one, then you won't do that again.

Sorry man. It wasn't my intention to tear you down. But, man, you made a kind of dumb move, imo. And if you really like the girl like you say you do... you might think about apologizing for being so rude.

 

[mina]

promise her more Simpsons watching with you.