Outer Calling And Inner Calling.......

[Jipsah]

Scripture does not say nor suggest anyone, other than Christ was chosen before creation. Ephesians 1:4 says He chose us in Him

Chose who, Van? Hint - it doesn't say "chose Him", it says "chose us". In Him? Of course in Him! He's our Savior, for cryin' out loud! But if you're fluent in English, your original statement is obviously absurd. The Bible says precisely that God has chosen us.

which means He chose Him before the foundation of the world

Then howcome it says that He chose us? Another case where that St. Paul fella just couldn't manage to say what he meant?

God chooses us, individually during our physical lifetime

Now that it doesn't say. That's pure imagination.

 

[Jipsah]

Calvinists try to be put God in a box

Couldn't if we wanted to, which we don't. God is sovereign, and He does the choosing, not us. He isn't sitting there, wringing His hands, helplessly hoping that some of us will "accept" Him, as Arminians and open theists would have us believe.

I share some of the views of Open Theists

Like the notion that God isn't really omniscient, and that He can be surprised by events and may need to "learn" things.

but that does not make me an open theist.

Let's see, you believe the same rot that they do, but you're not one. OK, whatever you say.

God hates all liars.

Would that include people who deny that the Bible asys something, and then quote a passage that says precisely what they've just denied exists? Hmmmm...

Pay no attention to the posts of NBF folks, NBF uses godless tactics to defend godless views.

To use what was once your favorite word, ad hominem, Van. You're attacking NBF and not his arguments. That's obviously bogus.

And finally Calvinism tries to stretch scripture so it fits their doctrine.

<Laugh> That's pretty hysterical, seeing that we're the ones who want to take the Scripture as written, and you whose standard line is "that's what it says, but what it really means is...". You don't just stretch Scripture, you wad it into a ball, toss it aside, and replace it with your own "meaning" custom designed to prop up your doctrine.

They say it does not mean what it says.

You're standing things on their heads again, Van. We're the ones that say that the Scripture does in fact say what it means. You're the one who insists on attaching novel "meanings" to the Scripture.

 

[Jipsah]

Why do Calvinists defend their false doctrines?

Because they aren't false, they're true. Simple, really.

Because they know they are false!

Nope, they're true. Take the Bible at what it says rather than what you think it ought to mean and you'll see that the doctrines of Calvinism are pretty much spot on.

If Irresistible Grace was true

It is.

, then false doctrines mean nothing

They're still false.

everyone will get to heaven that was chosen

Yep. No one can pluck them out of His hand. That's in the Bible, you see.

and no one will be prevented from entering heaven because they are lead astray by false doctrines.

That's right. Of all that the Father has given our Lord He will lose none, but He wil raise them up at the last day. That's in the Bible too.

Do you believe that? I do not.

Better read the Gospel of John again.

And based on the witness of their posts, neither do the Calvinist. LOL

Looks like you haven't been paying attention. <Guffaw>

 

[Van]

If the Calvinists believed their false doctrine they would not be concerned with my posts. Think about it folks.

Why do Calvinists defend their false doctrines? Because they know they are false! If Irresistible Grace was true, then false doctrines mean nothing, everyone will get to heaven that was chosen, and no one will be prevented from entering heaven because they are lead astray by false doctrines. Do you believe that? I do not. And based on the witness of their posts, neither do the Calvinist. LOL

The inner call is a fiction, folks, a complete fiction, not found in scripture.

 

[Van]

Calvinism illogically asserts Ephesians 1:4 says He chose us as foreseen individuallys to be saved before the foundation of the world. But that is not what the text says or means. No matter how many times they repeat this silly contention, all you have to do is look at 1 Peter 2:9-10 to say God choose us after we have lived without mercy. So if Ephesians 1:4 does not mean He chose us as foreseen individuals, what it does mean is He chose Him as redeemer, and as a consequence all those subsequently redeemed were chosen "in Him. This is not rocket science folks.

 

[nobdysfool]

If the Calvinists believed their false doctrine they would not be concerned with my posts. Think about it folks.

Why do Calvinists defend their false doctrines? Because they know they are false! If Irresistible Grace was true, then false doctrines mean nothing, everyone will get to heaven that was chosen, and no one will be prevented from entering heaven because they are lead astray by false doctrines. Do you believe that? I do not. And based on the witness of their posts, neither do the Calvinist. LOL

The inner call is a fiction, folks, a complete fiction, not found in scripture.

Again, what kind of logic is that? We oppose anti-Calvinist's posts precisely because they are false doctrine, and do violence to the Word of God. They makes false assertions against Calvinism, which if not answered, could lead people astray, much as the Pharisees were preventing people from entering the Kingdom. While those whom God has chosen will not fail to enter, there are still warnings for those who throw stumbling blocks into their paths, We view anti-Calvinist's posts as stumbling blocks to cause problems for those who would seek to know the truth.

They obviously doesn't like it, but they fail to realize that we are just as convinced, if not more so, of our doctrinal stance as they are of theirs, however misguided theirs may be. But they don't want their views subjected to the same depth of scrutiny they want to bring to ours, although most of their defense of their position falls under "We're right because they're wrong", which is a logical fallacy.

 

[nobdysfool]

Calvinism illogically asserts Ephesians 1:4 says He chose us as foreseen individuallys to be saved before the foundation of the world. But that is not what the text says or means. No matter how many times they repeat this silly contention, all you have to do is look at 1 Peter 2:9-10 to say God choose us after we have lived without mercy. So if Ephesians 1:4 does not mean He chose us as foreseen individuals, what it does mean is He chose Him as redeemer, and as a consequence all those subsequently redeemed were chosen "in Him. This is not rocket science folks.

No, it's not rocket science, anyone who reads these verses with an unbiased eye will see that it is the anti-Calvinist who is distorting and changing the meaning of the verses.

Not rocket science at all.....

 

[Van]

Note folks how the Calvinists deny their own doctrines. No body can be lead astray, because everyone has total spiritual inability. The only folks that seek God are under the influence of "irresistible grace." These cannot be lead astray or the grace is not irresistible.

Everytime they post, they deny their own doctrines. LOL

 

[Van]

We are not chosen until after we live without mercy. Therefore Ephesians 1:4 means God chose Christ as redeemer before the foundation of the world and as a consequence, everyone redeemed shares in His election before creation.

 

[Van]

And remember this, the inner call is a fiction, never mentioned in scripture. What is mentioned is the external call of the gospel of Christ, those that receive the gospel, and those whose faith in Christ, God credits as righteousness. This is what scripture says.

 

[Van]

Many scholars say that Augustine paved the way for the dark ages because he provided the theological underpinnings for the use of force to require adherance to orthodoxy.

No scripture refers to the "inner call" it is a fiction of Calvinism.

NBF denies that many scholars believe Augustine paved the way for the dark ages by providing the theological underpinning for using force to compel adherance to orthodoxy. But if you google, Augustine, Father of the Inquisition, you will find lots of scholars, many scholars. Try it and see.

 

[nill]

the inner call is fiction [times 142]

Isn't the inner call otherwise described as the Spirit of God whispering to a person's heart, to convict him of his need for Christ?

Don't you acknowledge the inner call, Van, whenever you witness to someone? Because you know you can say all the right words, but inside, in the person's heart, you know you can't change it; you know that has to be the Spirit of God working in him. You maybe give the right words, and preach the gospel--the "outer call"--but the Spirit of God actually has to wake the person up--the "inner call"--so that those things that you just said become wisdom and don't remain foolishness (1 Corinthians 2:14).

That's my take, anyway, on acknowledging the "inner calling" of the Spirit of God every time you preach or witness.

 

[nobdysfool]

Many scholars say that Augustine paved the way for the dark ages because he provided the theological underpinnings for the use of force to require adherance to orthodoxy.

No scripture refers to the "inner call" it is a fiction of Calvinism.

NBF denies that many scholars believe Augustine paved the way for the dark ages by providing the theological underpinning for using force to compel adherance to orthodoxy. But if you google, Augustine, Father of the Inquisition, you will find lots of scholars, many scholars. Try it and see.

Yes, but Van can't name one of them. Don't you find that strange? Perhaps the term "scholar" means something different to Van, than it does to the rest of the English-speaking world. He wants to hide behind nameless scholars, rather than admit that a Google search does not, in and of itself, prove anything. I can Google all sorts of idiocy, and get millions of hits, but it doesn't prove a thing. Van apparently thinks that Google is the be-all and end-all of research....

Folks, don't be taken in by this false scholarship. Google is not a theological research site, it is a search engine. Period. The integrity of the results is not guaranteed, nor is it meant to be.

 

[nobdysfool]

And remember this, the inner call is a fiction, never mentioned in scripture. What is mentioned is the external call of the gospel of Christ, those that receive the gospel, and those whose faith in Christ, God credits as righteousness. This is what scripture says.

This what Van thinks scripture says. Nothing more. He's wrong.

 

[nobdysfool]

We are not chosen until after we live without mercy. Therefore Ephesians 1:4 means God chose Christ as redeemer before the foundation of the world and as a consequence, everyone redeemed shares in His election before creation.

Apparently some do not understand the Election (God's choice) does not equal actual salvation, but only intent to save. Each person who is saved, is saved during their lifetime, at which time the Election of God is made manifest in their lives. "Living without mercy" as it is defined ion Van's post, forces God to be enmeshed in temporal time, which meshes perfectly with his Open Theistic beliefs. Sadly those beliefs are not biblical.

Behold the Procrustean bed.

 

[nobdysfool]

Note folks how the Calvinists deny their own doctrines. No body can be lead astray, because everyone has total spiritual inability. The only folks that seek God are under the influence of "irresistible grace." These cannot be lead astray or the grace is not irresistible.

Everytime they post, they deny their own doctrines. LOL

What a load of horse-pucky. How can Calvinists be denying their beliefs while defending them? What kind of upside down logic would lead to such a ridiculous statement?

Folks, The anti-Calvinist is busy kicking up dust to obscure the paucity of his doctrines, and the untenable nature of his false accusations against Calvinists.

 

[Jipsah]

If the Calvinists believed their false doctrine

We don't have any false doctrine.

they would not be concerned with my posts.

Sure we would, as a matter of housekeeping if nothing else. It's kind of like picking up trash off the side of the road. The litter isn't actually hurting anyone, but it's an unsightly mess best removed.

 

[Jipsah]

Calvinism illogically asserts Ephesians 1:4 says He chose us

No, it's the Scripture that makes the assertion, we Calvinists simply believe it.

But that is not what the text says or means.

Let's see, then:


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Yep, says right there that He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world. It doesn't say He chose Him before the foundation of the world, it says He chose us in Him. The object of the verb is us, you see. No good denying it, it's there in black and white. It's silly to claim that it doesn't say what it says, but I reckon that goes with a silly doctrine.

No matter how many times they repeat this silly contention

The contention that the Bible says what it says, your doctrien notwithstanding? Well, maybe that idea seems silly to you, but the idea of claiming that something isn't there that obviously is seems even sillier to me.

if Ephesians 1:4 does not mean He chose us as foreseen individuals...

... then why does it say that He chose us?

, what it does mean is He chose Him as redeemer

It says that He chose us.

This is not rocket science folks.

No, that it isn't. It's just you calling black white because you can't support your hand-wrought doctrine any other way.

 

[Jipsah]

We are not chosen until after we live without mercy.

The Bible says otherwise. I think I'll stick with what it says rather than what you believe, thanks all the same.

Therefore Ephesians 1:4 means God chose Christ as redeemer before the foundation of the world and as a consequence, everyone redeemed shares in His election before creation.

Interesting "interpretation", but unfortunately it isn't what the Bible says. I'll stick with what the Bible says rather than what you think it ought to mean, thanks all the same.

 

[Van]

The Calvinist simply repeat their false doctrines hoping no one will notice. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says we live without mercy before we are chosen. So we were not chosen individually before creation. Therefore "He chose us in Him" does not mean "He chose us as foreseen individuals before we lived without mercy."