Ebionites

[visionary]

vis:

Col is correct. Christianity is a creedal faith. You believe X Y Z you get to call yourself a Chrsitain. If you don't, you can't. The ebionites were not Christians.

Who made up that rule. Christianity is not a creedal faith, it is a faith in Yeshua. MJ are christians, who have returned to the Judaic roots.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Who made up that rule. Christianity is not a creedal faith, it is a faith in Yeshua. MJ are christians, who have returned to the Judaic roots.

Anyone can email MJAA and ask them "Is MJ Judaism ?" they will write back yes. Anyone can email UMJC and ask them "Is MJ Judaism?" they will write back, Yes. A person may personally be a Christian, and a Torah observant one. But that is not what the MJ movement is.

http://www.hashivenu.org/core_values.htm

Core Value #1

Messianic Judaism is a Judaism and not a cosmetically altered "Jewish style" version of what is extant in the wider Christian community.

This was the great leap which was taken when we changed our self-designation from "Hebrew-Christian" or "Jewish-Christian" to "Messianic Jew." We were saying that we no longer saw ourselves as Christians-Presbyterians, Baptists, Episcopalians, Pentecostals, etc.-who happened to come from Jewish ethnic backgrounds. Instead, being "Jewish" is, for us, a fundamental religious category. We are those who by birth share in the covenant G-d made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and whose ancestors pledged themselves and their descendants to a particular way of life with G-d at Sinai. Having been born into the covenant, we have also come to recognize Messiah Yeshua as the One sent by G-d to bring the covenant to its appointed goal.

We expressed this reality by switching our worship day from Sunday to Saturday, by celebrating the biblical feasts, by adopting traditional Jewish religious terminology (such as "rabbi" and "synagogue") and traditional Jewish religious customs (such as wearing tallit and kippot, having Torah services, and reciting the Shema), by employing selected Hebrew prayers in our services, by singing in a minor key and dancing Israeli dances. All of this was positive and good, though for the most part, superficial. The surface structure is the easiest to change. Of more importance is the deep structure, and this level has proved more intransigent.

The deep structure of religious life consists of the rooted patterns of thought, speech, action and identification reflected in our daily lives as individuals, families, and congregations. How do we think and talk about G-d, about His involvement with the world and with Israel? What is the actual texture of our daily and weekly religious practice? How is our sense of connection with the Jewish people as a whole expressed?
Too often the deep structure of Messianic Jewish religious life is indistinguishable from that of popular evangelicalism and bears little or no resemblance to any form of Judaism, past or present. When the world is easily divided into the classes of "saved" and "unsaved," when our speech is peppered with casual references to "what G-d just did" and "what G-d just said," when our exclusive mode of prayer is conversational and begins "Father G-d" and ends "in the precious name of Yeshua," when our kids go to Christian schools because the public schools are filled with "satanic influences," when speculation about the end-times is more natural to us than reciting a berachah -- then we know that the deep structure of our religious life is Hebrew Christian and has been untouched by the drastic changes in the surface structure of our movement.

We in Hashivenu believe that the radical innovation initiated in the 70's with the birth of "Messianic Judaism" -- founded on first century precedent but radically "new," nevertheless -- has not yet been brought to its logical conclusion. The deep structure must now be transformed.

When we say that Messianic Judaism is "a Judaism," we are also acknowledging the existence of other "Judaisms." We do not deny their existence, their legitimacy, or their value. We are not the sole valid expression of Judaism with all else a counterfeit. We recognize our kinship with other Judaisms and believe that we have much of profound importance to learn from them, as well as something vitally important to share with them.

 

[HaNotsri]

At least when I employ defnitions, I use the standard denitions each group has formed to define itself instead of presuming that I have a right to dictate all this stuff. Enough said.

If you email MJAA and ask them "Is MJ Judaism ?" they will write back yes. If you email UMJC and ask them "Is MJ Judaism?" they will write back, Yes. YOU may personally be a Christian, and a Torah observant one. But that is not what the MJ movement is.

Standard definitions? There are as many, if not more different groups within the realm of "Messianic Judaism" as there are in normative Christianity.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Standard definitions? There are as many, if not more different groups within the realm of "Messianic Judaism" as there are in normative Christianity.

How do you define "normative".
From what I am seeing on some Christ-ian threads, there doesn't appear to be much "normal" about it depending on ones definition and view of it. Shalom.

http://foru.ms/t6389992-chrisitanity-v-protestantism.html

Actually, I don't really have nasty things to say about Protestantism. I just figured that the irrational thread labeled "Christianity v. Catholicism", which makes no more sense than "fruits v. apples" should have a counter balance

http://foru.ms/t6384505-fundies-say-the-darndest-things.html

 

[GeratTzedek]

How do you define "normative".
From what I am seeing on some Christ-ian threads, there doesn't appear to be much "normal" about it depending on ones definition and view of it. Shalom.

Lamb, until a couple decades ago, it was absolutely unthinkable for anyone to call themself a Christian that did not accept the Creeds. Since the time of the reformation, the protestant denominations have become increasingly divergent, but they still held it together so far as orthodoxy was concerned. It has only been since the proliferation of non-denominational churches, where pastors and congregations no longer have any oversight or accountability, that things have spun out of control.

My father was a fundamentalist pastor. He preached in a methodist church. It was a very awkward arrangment, LOL. But such is life. At any rate, he, as a fundamentalist, accepted the creeds. The Methodists also accepts the creeds (in fact, the creeds were published in the back of the hymnals).

In my day and age, it was CS Lewis and his book, "MERE CHRISTIANITY" which was the primer on basic beliefs. Even though he is protestant, his book makes continual reference to the creeds. Every evangelical either read this book or heard of it.

You also had folks like Walter Martin, radio's "Bible Answer Man" of Calvary Chapel circa 1980s. He was certainly your "Bible Only" kind of dude, but he continually made reference to the creeds as the official embodiment of orthodox INTERPRETATION of the Bible. For example, he would outright call any non-Trinitarian church a cult.

There were of course LIBERALS that rejected the Creed -- those who didn't believe in the virgin birth or resurrection, who basically just believed in being a good person. But then of course, that was the big argument in my day, that liberals were not the Christians they claimed to be if they rejected scripture, the resurrection, the trinity, etc.

It is really only today, meaning the last couple decades, that it has become so common place within protestant churches for people to have this idea that one can believe ANYTHING and just "believe in Jesus" and rightfully be called a Christian.

 

[Henaynei]

Why do you say that Messianics are not Christians? All the messianics I know believe that Yeshua is the promised messiah. Maybe your congregation believes differently?

that is not the only thing that distinguishes a "Christian" - I, too, am not a Christian - although I firmly believe Yeshua is G-d/HaShem and Messiah....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Lamb, until a couple decades ago, it was absolutely unthinkable for anyone to call themself a Christian that did not accept the Creeds. Since the time of the reformation, the protestant denominations have become increasingly divergent, but they still held it together so far as orthodoxy was concerned. It has only been since the proliferation of non-denominational churches, where pastors and congregations no longer have any oversight or accountability, that things have spun out of control.

Shalom. Creeds are man made interpretations of the Scriptures, and were written down before the Bible got more largely distributed to the "common folk".
Look at all the multiple translations in the Bible today also.

And do we HAVE TO BELIEVE in a future "second coming" of JESUS in order to be SAVED? [The Orthodox Jews for example have no concept of it. How come?]

How do you think the Catholics feel about another denomination viewing them and their Pope as the "anti-christ"?

What a paradox, a Christ-ian anti-christ.

http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&contentID=4441&collectionID=795&shortcutID=5297

Therefore on the basis of a renewed study of the pertinent Scriptures we reaffirm the statement of the Lutheran Confessions, that "the Pope is the very Antichrist" (cf. Section II), especially since he anathematizes the doctrine of the justification by faith alone and sets himself up as the infallible head of the Church.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Shalom. Creeds are man made interpretations of the Scriptures, and were written down before the Bible got more largely distributed to the "common folk".
.

Ah, but the men who made these interpretations of the Scriptures were all Chrsitians at a time when Christianity was united.

They were also formed at a time before New Testament canon was even formed. Even "UNcommon folk" didn't have it. It didn't exist as such.

Until those same "men" that put together the creeds also put together the canon. It didn't fall out of the sky the way you now have it. The books were carefully chosen.

If you are going to accept the legitimacy of the New Testament canon, you similarly have to accept the creeds. They are both built upon the same authority base.

It's also why NON-Christian groups such as the Ebionites were free to reject both the canon of the NT and the creeds -- because they rejected the same authority that underscored both.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ah, but the men who made these interpretations of the Scriptures were all Chrsitians at a time when Christianity was united.

They were also formed at a time before New Testament canon was even formed. Even "UNcommon folk" didn't have it. It didn't exist as such.

Until those same "men" that put together the creeds also put together the canon. It didn't fall out of the sky the way you now have it. The books were carefully chosen.

If you are going to accept the legitimacy of the New Testament canon, you similarly have to accept the creeds. They are both built upon the same authority base.

It's also why NON-Christian groups such as the Ebionites were free to reject both the canon of the NT and the creeds -- because they rejected the same authority that underscored both.

Hi. A fellow Messianic disagrees with you. I follow the Lord Jesus not "Creeds".

Quote Visionary post # 61
Who made up that rule. Christianity is not a creedal faith, it is a faith in Yeshua. MJ are christians, who have returned to the Judaic roots.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We in Hashivenu believe that the radical innovation initiated in the 70's with the birth of "Messianic Judaism" -- founded on first century precedent but radically "new," nevertheless -- has not yet been brought to its logical conclusion. The deep structure must now be transformed.

When we say that Messianic Judaism is "a Judaism," we are also acknowledging the existence of other "Judaisms." We do not deny their existence, their legitimacy, or their value. We are not the sole valid expression of Judaism with all else a counterfeit. We recognize our kinship with other Judaisms and believe that we have much of profound importance to learn from them, as well as something vitally important to share with them.

Shalom. What is different then between your "Reformation" and the great Protestant Reformation to break away from Papal Catholicism?
If not for that we would still be reading the Catechism instead of the Bible.
I acknowledge Catholicism and Orthodoxy as fellow Christians, but I do not share their Creedal or Doctrinal views.
Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 15:27 The yet said, `Yea Lord, for even the little-dogs/kunaria <2952> do eat of the crumbs, the ones falling from the Table of the lords of them;'

Luke 16:21and yearning to be satisfied from the crumbs, the-ones falling from the Table of the Rich-one, but also/even the dogs coming licked the sores of him.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm

 

[GeratTzedek]

Hi. A fellow Messianic disagrees with you. I follow the Lord Jesus not "Creeds".

lamb:

LOL you will find that vis and I disagree on just about everything. Why would it matter to me if she disagrees? I make quality arguments and the best you can come back with is that someone in the forum disagrees with me? [rolls eyes] I've seen better falacious appeals to authority than this!

 

[GeratTzedek]

lamb: MJ is not a reformation. We are not trying to change the gentile churches. The gentiles are in charge of the gentile churches. We have an alliance with them, as we are all part of Ekklesia. But we are not part of Christianity. MJ is primarily run by Jews FOR Jews. Any gentiles in our midst are circumstantial and by choice, not because they need to be.

In this forum, we don't make disparaging comments about particular churches, or about the gentile churches in general.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

lamb: MJ is not a reformation. We are not trying to change the gentile churches. The gentiles are in charge of the gentile churches. We have an alliance with them, as we are all part of Ekklesia. But we are not part of Christianity. MJ is primarily run by Jews FOR Jews. Any gentiles in our midst are circumstantial and by choice, not because they need to be.

In this forum, we don't make disparaging comments about particular churches, or about the gentile churches in general.

lamb:

LOL you will find that vis and I disagree on just about everything. Why would it matter to me if she disagrees? I make quality arguments and the best you can come back with is that someone in the forum disagrees with me? [rolls eyes] I've seen better falacious appeals to authority than this!

Shalom. Well, you have your appeals to authority and I have mine. Would it bother you if I said I do not believe in a future second coming of JESUS?

Other then that, I will let the Orthodox Jews debate with you concerning "authority" in the Scriptures. Shalom.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Phil 3:2 Beware of-the Dogs/kunaV <2965>, beware of-the Evil Workers , beware of-the concision/katatomhn<2699>!
3 For we-are the circumcision/peritomh <4061> , ones to Spirit of God worship, boasting in Christ Jesus, and not in flesh having confidence.

 

[GeratTzedek]

lamb:

I could care less what silly doctrines you do or don't believe in. It is a far greater concern to me that you do things like post anti-Semitic websites. You see, I'm more concerned about actions than ideas. The closer something gets to being a bad action, the greater my concern. Your views on the second coming are completely inconsequential.

And you didn't appeal to an authority. You didn't even make a falacious appeal to authority. You appealed to something someone else in the forum said. That's what made it funny.

 

[visionary]

Posting must be on issues, on subject matter, on citations, on references and on opinions, but never on the poster. Please refrain from personal comments.

 

[davaoguy2]

I was surfing the web and am actually shocked that there are actually Jews [Ebionites] who believe in Jesus the same way we do, namely:

1. He is a Man and not God.
2. He is the Messiah

However, as I was reading on [ebioniteDOTcom] The Ebionite Home Page, I'm rather puzzled to read where its implied, i hope I'm wrong, that the Son of God dwells in Yeshua, its as if the Son of God were a separate entity from Yeshua. For we in the Church believe that Yeshua is indeed the Son of God. Even Apostle Mark said so.

Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God [KJV].

And is it vital to our salvation if we hold on to such teaching?

1Jo 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.[NIV]

Also, we in the Church of Christ do Worship/Bow our Knees to Yeshua, not because he is God, but because God willed it.

Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This is the fulfillment of the prophecy written in the book of Isaiah:

Isa 43:7 [Even] every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

And Yeshua is a name which The Father gave him.

Jhn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name-the name you gave me-so that they may be one as we are one. [NIV]

Though this may be, in the end however, when all things are made subject to Yeshua, Yeshua the Son of God will surrender everthing to the Father [YHWH].

1Cr 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. [NIV].

If you have further questions, we have a local church in Jerusalem, its called Church of Christ or Iglesia ni Cristo in Philippine.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

As little as you agree with me, the burden of proof resides in your hands. You made the original claims, we'd all love to see some evidence so we can believe you. Simply stating, "Well, ages ago I definitely remember reading something about it that proves my case!"

Quite simply, I say to you: Show us.

I have more than handily shown even from your own very sources that the Ebionites were a Jewish sect and not composed of Gentiles. You have yet to provide a single shred of evidence. And I've asked dozens of times.

I would suggest at this point you finally bring something to the table so that we can all evaluate the evidence, or you retract the claim. You decide. But either way, the burden of proof lay in your hands.

ST, did you really think you were going to get Ger to admit she was flat out wrong? She would endure needles in her eyes before that would happen, Bro. After she left CF, she came to my forum, and I ended up having to ban her.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Someone brought up this topic on another thread so I thought I would bump this up for more discussion....

http://www.christianforums.com/t7466327/#post54708004

Similar in many way to the Ebionites of the first 200 years after Christ. The Ebionites rejected Paul in total and considered him a apostate. What's interesting is that these folks actually "heard" and "read" what Paul wrote and-to-the-man, understood him to be saying that the Old Covenant Law of Moses was not binding on Christians and therefore thought him an enemy of the Sabbath and other things from the Law.

Now, certain Christians attempt to bend what Paul said in an attempt to claim what we think he said wasn't what he meant. LOL.

 

[visionary]

You will always have a multitude of opinions.. and one thing to remember majority or minority of groups is not where to look for whether it is true or not.. .to look for truth.. you must seek Him, who is the truth.. He will lead you into all truth..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You will always have a multitude of opinions.. and one thing to remember majority or minority of groups is not where to look for whether it is true or not.. .to look for truth.. you must seek Him, who is the truth.. He will lead you into all truth..

AMEN!