Ebionites

[simchat_torah]

ok, well... ignoring that one tiny part (where you don't think I've answerd you and I believe my answer was sufficient), what about the rest of my questions and what I've presented?

 

[GeratTzedek]

LOL, the MJAA and UMJC are the overwhelming, overwhelming majority of the community. MJAA is the group that coined and defined "MEssianic Judaism." There simply is NO other organization of congrations so large, nor any other group with such a legitimate right to say what Messianic Judaism is and is not.

How many times have I said this? Did you think I was going to answer differently? Or did you just want to hear it again for ol' time's sake?

The wishy-washy history of these two groups, their entanglement with gentile protestant Christianity would have bothered me had I investigated MJ 20 years ago. However, I did not. I walked into Ahavat Zion in full bloom as a true synagogue rather than church. I came just as the Rabbinical Council was getting ready to publish its standards. I am here NOW watching them TRULY recreate what was once the Netzarim.

 

[GeratTzedek]

ST:

I read your arguments. They were not persuasive. As I said, this is not productive. I am not happy with the borderline personal stuff -- conversations that go that direction need to be ended. I did double check for question marks in your post to make sure I've answered all your direct questions. Actually, I saw only one question mark, and the question was rhetorical. You make STATEMENTS, sir. You are ALWAYS free to disagree with me, my friend. Let's let it rest.

 

[simchat_torah]

LOL, the MJAA and UMJC are the overwhelming, overwhelming majority of the community.

Quite hardly. Even on this very forum, with well over 20 MJ members, less than 5 attend either UMJC or MJAA. Online polls have shown that well under half of Messianics belong to UMJC or MJAA. Of that "less than half" they are divided into two camps, UMJC and MJAA.

I read your arguments. They were not persuasive.

As little as you agree with me, the burden of proof resides in your hands. You made the original claims, we'd all love to see some evidence so we can believe you. Simply stating, "Well, ages ago I definitely remember reading something about it that proves my case!"

Quite simply, I say to you: Show us.

I have more than handily shown even from your own very sources that the Ebionites were a Jewish sect and not composed of Gentiles. You have yet to provide a single shred of evidence. And I've asked dozens of times.

I would suggest at this point you finally bring something to the table so that we can all evaluate the evidence, or you retract the claim. You decide. But either way, the burden of proof lay in your hands.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Quite hardly. Even on this very forum, with well over 20 MJ members, less than 5 attend either UMJC or MJAA. Online polls have shown that well under half of Messianics belong to UMJC or MJAA. Of that "less than half" they are divided into two camps, UMJC and MJAA.

As little as you agree with me, the burden of proof resides in your hands. You made the original claims, we'd all love to see some evidence so we can believe you. Simply stating, "Well, ages ago I definitely remember reading something about it that proves my case!"

Quite simply, I say to you: Show us.

I have more than handily shown even from your own very sources that the Ebionites were a Jewish sect and not composed of Gentiles. You have yet to provide a single shred of evidence. And I've asked dozens of times.

I would suggest at this point you finally bring something to the table so that we can all evaluate the evidence, or you retract the claim. You decide. But either way, the burden of proof lay in your hands.

ST: I realize the majority of folks in here are One Law. It's basically a One Law forum, not MJ. That's why every single person I've invited here has left. Except Shlo. We haven't driven him away just yet. But then, Shlo isn't Yeshua-fiath, so it likely won't bother him.

I really don't know how else to say the discussion is over. I don't care to have a non-constructive fight with you.

This has been a rotten day. I am very down. My son has not responded well to my returning to work. I'm feeling overwhelmed with my caseload. And I feel like I belong no where. Please let go of this. I'l tell you what. I am wrong and you are right, and I'm an absolute moron.

 

[Wags]

Ger you have made a lot of claims without any providing any proof.

1. How about the names/authors of the books where you got your info?

2. You have been making the claim that folks you have invited here have left for various reasons every since you yourself arrived her a few months ago. But I don't remember a single newbie that has ever claimed to know you. Can you point us to a thread that says otherwise?

3. And speaking of leaving, I thought you said a few times you weren't coming back here - so why are you still here?

4. The MJAA recieves a majority of funding from Evangelical organizations., so they haven't given up their "wishy-washy" connections in the slightest nor are the likely to. Do you have proof to support your claims that they are free of such entanglements?

 

[GeratTzedek]

Wags, you are more interested in simply dissing me than any real discussion. I'm not going to engage you. I thought you had me on iggy. Guess I was wrong.

 

[Colabomb]

The Ebionites are not Christians, as they deny everything that makes Christianity Christianity.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Ebionites are not Christians, as they deny everything that makes Christianity Christianity.

Hi. May I ask what they deny that Christianity doesn't? Thanks.

 

[Colabomb]

They deny the Divinity of Christ, the virgin Birth, The resurrection, the atonement at calvary etc.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

They deny the Divinity of Christ, the virgin Birth, The resurrection, the atonement at calvary etc.

Hi. So do Orthodox Jews. What is your point?

1 Corinthians 7:23 with a price ye were bought/hgorasqhte <59>, become not servants of men;

Revelation 5:9 and they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because Thou wast slaughtered, and didst purchase/hgorasaV <59>Us to God in Thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s1.htm

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

 

[Colabomb]

Hi. So do Orthodox Jews. What is your point?

Orthodox Jews don't claim to be Christian.

I was just making a comment, not an accusation.

 

[GeratTzedek]

vis:

Col is correct. Christianity is a creedal faith. You believe X Y Z you get to call yourself a Chrsitain. If you don't, you can't. The ebionites were not Christians.

 

[GeratTzedek]

I agree.

Messianic Jews are not Christians either, btw.

 

[ChazakEmunah]

I agree.

Messianic Jews are not Christians either, btw.

If you say so...

 

[Colabomb]

I agree.

Messianic Jews are not Christians either, btw.

Debatable, but I'm not allowed to do that here

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

vis:

Col is correct. Christianity is a creedal faith. You believe X Y Z you get to call yourself a Chrsitain. If you don't, you can't. The ebionites were not Christians.

What? You never heard of the No Creed But Christ movement?

http://foru.ms/f448-no-creed-but-christ-restoration-movement.html

1) "No Creed but Christ." The phrase "No Creed But Christ" means that no Restoration Movement congregation will require a believer to read, memorize, sign, recite, affirm, pledge, or in any way have anything to do with a written creed as a litmus test for fellowship, baptism or communion, nor will a seeker or non-believer be expected to learn a creed in order to continue learning or attending. Many, if not most, RM congregations have a written "Statement of Beliefs." Such as statement is for information only, and is not a standard to which one must agree in order to have fellowship.

 

[Colabomb]

Its a new movement, the earliest Church has always had creeds, even Creeds as simple as a few lines.

We have always defined what we believe.

 

[GeratTzedek]

What? You never heard of the No Creed But Christ movement?

http://foru.ms/f448-no-creed-but-christ-restoration-movement.html

1) "No Creed but Christ." The phrase "No Creed But Christ" means that no Restoration Movement congregation will require a believer to read, memorize, sign, recite, affirm, pledge, or in any way have anything to do with a written creed as a litmus test for fellowship, baptism or communion, nor will a seeker or non-believer be expected to learn a creed in order to continue learning or attending. Many, if not most, RM congregations have a written "Statement of Beliefs." Such as statement is for information only, and is not a standard to which one must agree in order to have fellowship.

lamb:

I've heard of the "No Creed but Christ" movement, and many other bizarre biproducts of protestant individualim. To say "No Creed but Christ" is nothing but a sound bite and self-decieving line.

I have pagan friends believe in Jesus. Are they Christians? They have statues of Jesus mary and joseph on their altar right along with the "other" buddhas (their words.) They adore Jesus, read the Bible, try to follow its teachings.

After all, no creed but Christ.

Pulling my tongue out of my cheek, I would like to recommend a Christian Classic to you. It's called Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. In my day EVERYONE in the evangelical churches read this book, or at least knew of it. He will lay out for you the basics of the Christian faith, and why they are the basics.

 

[Wags]

I agree.

Messianic Jews are not Christians either, btw.

Why do you say that Messianics are not Christians? All the messianics I know believe that Yeshua is the promised messiah. Maybe your congregation believes differently?