Ebionites

[simchat_torah]

sigh* I knew things were going to get too complicated. Things changed as history developed. First of all, in the beginning, during the time of the apostles, all these terms, Netzarim, Essenes, Ebyonim, etc, were being flung around, and there were scads of different groups. Anyone who wants to claim that during these years there were organized movements has only done superficial reading. They were more like schools of thought that overlapped among many different groups.

Later in time, these schools did begin to differentiate out from the Church, and from each other. However, it is difficult at best to sort out the truth, because the Church fathers and other sources are little better than people today -- they tended to put all the "others" in one basket and treat them as if they were the same.

Its all a nice theory, but not documented anywhere that Ebionites included Gentiles. No where. So it remains a theory unique to GerTzedek.

I don't claim to be a historian or an expert, but I probably know more than most of the people writing those websites.

That's a pretty big claim.

My friend who is receiving his doctorates in Early Christian History (and has 5 masters... why? I don't know, but he does) would disagree with you.

I also find it funny that when pressed for evidence, every single link you provided gave nothing to the effect, and all strongly disagreed with your platform that Ebionites included Gentiles.

I can give you this argument: it makes no sense for a group to have a doctrine that gentiles need to observe mosaic law if there are no gentiles within that community

The Torah clearly has mitzvot to govern Gentiles. There are laws that apply to every type of person... Jew/Gentile, male/female, within Israel/outside of Israel, etc. The Ebionites were not unique in this.

 

[simchat_torah]

Ironic that I have never ever been called "anti-semitic" by Orthodox Jews

I don't recall your previous posts, but yeah... so I can't call you antisemetic. However, your links do tend to involve antisemetic rhetoric.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Simchat, it means that there aren't online links I can offer. It doesn't mean there isn't stuff out there. Sheesh. I can guarantee I am not the only person with this opinion.

Try answering my argument. How could a community with a doctrine pertaining to gentiles and which converted gentiles not HAVE gentiles? You are welcome to ask your friend as well.

Not one of the links I provided stated that the ebionite communities were only Jews. Not one. The presence of Jews doesn't mean gentiles are not also there. The MJ commmunity should have at least taught you that!!!! The communtities were Jewish Christian in that they were Torah observant. "Jewish" is being used as an adjective to the noun of Christian, and is mostly referring to their doctrine of the universality of Jewish law. The habit of calling them Jewish Christians has also been picked up from the early church writers, who were absolutely opposed to this teaching, and considered the adjective of "Jewish" to be a slam.

If you want to still disagree with me, be my guest. But I did my homework, and I have a right to state what I have stated.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't recall your previous posts, but yeah... so I can't call you antisemetic. However, your links do tend to involve antisemetic rhetoric.

Shalom s_t.
In respect to this, I deleted the link in my post, and the only reason I posted it was it explained the translation of the word "Jew" in the GNT.

I sincerely apologize if it offended you and other Orthodox Jews, and perhaps we will all just have to wait for the "return of Jesus" to straighten all thing out as "MOST" of Christianity and Islam are waiting on [and as I understand it, there is no concept of this in Orthodox Judaism].

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/about/statementoffaith
Jews for Jesus

"We believe that Jesus the Messiah will return personally in order to consummate the prophesied purposes concerning His kingdom".

As far as ebionites go, I had never heard of them until I saw this thread and I am one of those "nut-cases" that is strictly Scripture only, but I did do a google seach on them as they are not mentioned in the Bible that I know of. Peace/Shalom/Salam.

Google search results 1 - 10 of about 72,100 for what are ebionites.

http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/western/bldef_ebionites.htm

Definition:
The Ebionites were a Judeo-Christian sect which existed from the 2nd through 4th centuries CE. The Ebionites accepted the bulk of the Torah, but rejected various doctrines, like those concerning sacrifices. Some also rejected the teachings of Paul........................

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm
Paul the false Apostle

........."There are a number of historical facts, quotations from Paul, and quotations from Yahshua recorded in the New Testament that leave us with some quite compelling evidence against his apostleship being recognized in heaven".

 

[shlomoh]

I went to Wikapedia this morning to see what they have on Ebionites. Their article describes Ebionite as Jews. Also a MINOR opinion by some early church people to the effect that Ebionites were Judaizers. Most material thaqt I have ever read on Ebionites claim that they probably were a group evolved out of the original Nazarene sect headed by James, brother of the lord

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I went to Wikapedia this morning to see what they have on Ebionites. Their article describes Ebionite as Jews. Also a MINOR opinion by some early church people to the effect that Ebionites were Judaizers. Most material thaqt I have ever read on Ebionites claim that they probably were a group evolved out of the original Nazarene sect headed by James, brother of the lord

Shalom.
I see they also have a website. Interesting as this almost appears to refer to Messianic Judaism.

This is also interesting in the fact that Islam also does not view JESUS as God.

I also put this up on a thread discussing the 10 Commandents. [link at bottom] Peace.

http://ebionite.com/

The Ebionites are the Genuine People of the New Covenant
Unless you are an Ebionite You Cannot be a Disciple of Yeshua/Jesus

Ebionites did not believe Yeshua/Jesus was God In the Manner of the Pagan Gentiles

http://foru.ms/t6366833-whoever-annuls-the-least-of-the-commandments.html

One of the reasons Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah is that they see some of his teachings as contradictory to the Law, and therefore false. The Law says it will not be changed, so they believe anyone to change them is not truly from God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

One other question. Would Messianic Jews in essence be considered "Ebionites" according to that site?
In fact because of that site I started a thread on the GA board if anyone is interested as I have heard atheists mentione something about Paul being of the view that JESUS may not have literally existed. Shalom.

http://foru.ms/t6369286-was-jesus-a-mystic.html
was-jesus-a-mystic

Institutionalized Ignorance Of Man Jesus was a Mystic, and he taught us how to walk the spiritual path of TheWay. Paul warned that it is impossible for natural man without spiritual transformation to know the Truth -- and he will look upon the Mysteries of God as "foolishness"!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Original OP: Ebionites

References to the Ebionties have come up before in our discussions of the One Law movement. However, with Michael's various posts regarding his desire for a "Judeo-Christian" forum and icon, I think it is appropriate to discuss the Ebionite movement in more detail, since Michael has appropriately made it clear that he is NOT Messianic nor Christian...............................

Can Messianics answer the question concerning them being "Ebionites"? Thanks. Shalom.

 

[GeratTzedek]

Can Messianics answer the question concerning them being "Ebionites"? Thanks. Shalom.

We are NOT ebionites. NO no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.

Clear?

Is the One Law movement ebionite? That is more complicated. Clearly there is a doctrinal descent. But the One Law movement is also incredibly influenced by the Protestant Reformation, and has adopted many of the orthodox Christian beliefs which Protestants inherited from the Catholics.

Rabbis Russel Resnik and Dan Juster (of UMJC and MJAA respectively) have written a joint Messianic Jewish response to the One Law theology, labeling it a THREAT to Messianic Judaism.

 

[GeratTzedek]

I went to Wikapedia this morning to see what they have on Ebionites. Their article describes Ebionite as Jews. Also a MINOR opinion by some early church people to the effect that Ebionites were Judaizers. Most material thaqt I have ever read on Ebionites claim that they probably were a group evolved out of the original Nazarene sect headed by James, brother of the lord

Shlomoh:

You have to understand how wikepedia works. *I* write for wikipedia. Anyone with scholarly input may add. The problem is, when scholars disagree, you might see a webpage change. There is also only minimal oversight, and it is not uncommon for idiots and jerks to do damage to websites. For example, there was a fairly decent HISTORY of the Messianic movement on wikepedia's MJ site -- until some bozo with an anti-Christian agenda came and and edited the whole thing out and replaced it with a bunch of irrelevancies about what was said at the Baptist convention about Jews. By and large, wikepedia tends to be a very decent site. But it can't be trusted 100%.

Now, where on the wikepedia site does it state that the ebionites were Jews? The only thing I see it saying is that it was a Jewish Christian sect. That does NOT mean that everyone in was Jewish. It means that as a group, it followed Jewish law. I hope, therefore, you are referring to a different part of the entry that I haven't spotted.

After the studies I have done, I would have to agree that the ebionites have their roots in the original community of yeshua-believers under James in Jerusalem. As I said before, in Acts 15, there were those in that community preaching that gentiles had to be circumcised and follow all the jewish laws in order to have salvation -- I believe this clique to have been the precursor to the ebionites. But at THAT time, they were still part of the community of Jews of Yeshua-faith, or what I would call the Netzarim (and that is also a scholarly opinion, as others would distinguish the Netzarim from the community in Jerusalem). As I stated in other posts in this thread and elsewhere, it was over time that the Netzarim and Ebionites split. They split over the issue of whether or not gentiles need observe Mosaic law.

I have never ever read an authority on the ebionites that has considered the labeling of them as "judaizers" a minor thing. Their belief that gentiles must observe Torah is the single most distinguishing doctrine they had.

I ask you the same question I have asked everyone here: Given that the Ebionites proselytized gentiles, and that they had this belief regarding gentiles, can you honestly state there were not gentiles among them?

BTW, shlo, while you and I may not agree on everything, I do respect your opinion, because I know that you have done your homework and looked into the history of the early community of Jewish believers to a degree few have.

 

[simchat_torah]

But I did my homework, and I have a right to state what I have stated.

Its hard to argue with secret knowledge that someone else has that they can't verify for everyone else.

I mean, so far everything you provided disagreed with you flat out.

So, what do you propose? Shall we side with your secret knowledge that you can't verify? Or should we side with well documented encyclopedias that have shown us otherwise?

 

[GeratTzedek]

Its hard to argue with secret knowledge that someone else has that they can't verify for everyone else.

I mean, so far everything you provided disagreed with you flat out.

So, what do you propose? Shall we side with your secret knowledge that you can't verify? Or should we side with well documented encyclopedias that have shown us otherwise?

Nothing secret about it. And everything I read is available for you to read as well. But it will take you a long time.

Disagrees with me flat out? Hardly. You have read into it a different idea of what "Jewish Christian" means than what seems obvious to me.

And you never bothered to answer my question. So go ahead and disagree. But don't imagine you can avoid a question without my taking note.

 

[Steve Petersen]

We are NOT ebionites. NO no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.

Clear?

Is the One Law movement ebionite? That is more complicated. Clearly there is a doctrinal descent. But the One Law movement is also incredibly influenced by the Protestant Reformation, and has adopted many of the orthodox Christian beliefs which Protestants inherited from the Catholics.

Rabbis Russel Resnik and Dan Juster (of UMJC and MJAA respectively) have written a joint Messianic Jewish response to the One Law theology, labeling it a THREAT to Messianic Judaism.

And Tim Hegg has written responses to them. www.torahresource.com

'Threat' to Messianic Judaism? Come on! If you are referring to MJ as defined by Resnik and Juster that may be so but you continue to have this prejudiced view that the only 'real' MJs are people that belong to the UMJC.

 

[simchat_torah]

Nothing secret about it. And everything I read is available for you to read as well. But it will take you a long time.

Here's the thing Ger... the first few centuries C.E. Judaism is something which I am well versed. I am quite familiar with the Ebionites. I have never found a single shred of evidence to indicate you are correct on this issue. So please don't tell me to go study, if you make a claim... expect to be challenged and expect to have sources available to verify your claims.

You hold the burden of proof as you're the one making the claim. I challenged you and I have yet to see anything provided, other than your reference to some secret knowledge that seems to have escaped the printed world.

Disagrees with me flat out? Hardly.

Yup. I even provided quotes. You have yet to address a single one of those. So far, instead of addressing the quotations I provided from your very own citations, you have insisted on referring to your own secret knowledge.

You have read into it a different idea of what "Jewish Christian" means than what seems obvious to me.

and it seems that every one of your sources agrees with me, and read the same thing. None of your sources agrees with you. If you can honestly provide some source material to back up your claims, let's see it. Otherwise, I'm not satisfied with secret knowledge you can't share with everyone else. Expect that such claims will be challenged in a discussion forum, and it is your responsibility to provide backing for your claims.

And you never bothered to answer my question. So go ahead and disagree. But don't imagine you can avoid a question without my taking note.

LOL. Well over half of my replies to your posts throughout your time here on this forum went unanswered. So, if you would, please have a bit of grace if I overlook a single question you ask. But just for your sake, let's go back and revisit that question, shall we?

Try answering my argument. How could a community with a doctrine pertaining to gentiles and which converted gentiles not HAVE gentiles?

I did previously answer your question, thus I didn't feel the need to restate my position again... but here it is:

The Torah clearly has mitzvot to govern Gentiles. There are laws that apply to every type of person... Jew/Gentile, male/female, within Israel/outside of Israel, etc. The Ebionites were not unique in this

Certainly the Ebionites were not unique in this nature. Every sect of Judaism has held halacha regarding the treatment of Gentiles, conversion of Gentiles, etc. Just because the Ebionites included such mitzvot does not mean there was some unique quality in this regard.

 

[the_Abbot]

When I was interested in becoming an Ebionite this site gave me some information

http://www.ebionite.org/

 

[GeratTzedek]

I did previously answer your question, thus I didn't feel the need to restate my position again... but here it is:

Quote:
The Torah clearly has mitzvot to govern Gentiles. There are laws that apply to every type of person... Jew/Gentile, male/female, within Israel/outside of Israel, etc. The Ebionites were not unique in this
Certainly the Ebionites were not unique in this nature. Every sect of Judaism has held halacha regarding the treatment of Gentiles, conversion of Gentiles, etc. Just because the Ebionites included such mitzvot does not mean there was some unique quality in this regard.

Simchat:

Ah ha! The reason I didn't see your answer, is because it doesn't answer the question. The question was simply WERE THERE GENTILE MEMBERS IN THEIR COMMUNITY given their teaching regarding gentiles and knowing they proselytized? Or do you maintain that they held this teaching as a major doctrine despite the absense of anyone to apply it to, and that all their missionary efforts gained no converts?

Are you saying that you consider the conversions the Ebionites did to be valid conversions to Judaism, and thus any gentiles which entered into their community became Jews? Because that is the only way I can think of for you to rationally get around this.

No one here answers every post. My personal tendency is to spend more time engaging with those I disagree with, and quite simply, the overwhelming majority of what you post is exemplary. Don't take it personally. If on the other hand, you asked me a DIRECT QUESTION, and I didn't answer it, then I ask forgiveness for my rude behavior, and assure you it was not intentional (I don't read every thread or every post each time I log on either.)

 

[simchat_torah]

Ah ha! The reason I didn't see your answer, is because it doesn't answer the question.

I feel it sufficiently does.

The question was simply WERE THERE GENTILE MEMBERS IN THEIR COMMUNITY given their teaching regarding gentiles and knowing they proselytized?

Answer: No different than any other Jewish community of the time. Irrelevant question.

Are you saying that you consider the conversions the Ebionites did to be valid conversions to Judaism, and thus any gentiles which entered into their community became Jews?

The Ebionites were just another heretical Jewish sect imo.
Who are you asking if the conversions were considered valid unto? Pharisees? Saduccees? Essenes? Nazarenes? Christians? Who do you want me to answer the quesiton for?

Note: You haven't addressed the previous citations you provided. If you disagree with your own sources, why?

If on the other hand, you asked me a DIRECT QUESTION, and I didn't answer it, then I ask forgiveness for my rude behavior, and assure you it was not intentional (I don't read every thread or every post each time I log on either.)

Don't worry about it. I have had several direct posts to you which seemingly fell through the cracks. I just like to tease you about it. I think I'm sporatically on your ignore list

 

[GeratTzedek]

Steve:

YOu aren't going to budge me in this. We are simply going to disagree. Yes, I think that MJ is defined by the MJAA and its spinoff, the UMJC. They speak for the community. Those that are Messianic Jews or gentiles associated with the Messianic movement agree with what those groups teach.

I simply don't accept the idea that any group can come along and put up a sign that says "Messianic Congregation" and it makes it true. Sorry. This is not analogus to protestantism where any individual can put out a shingle and say "This is Christianity."

MJ's core particularity is this: The line between Israel and the Nations is not to be blurred: Israel has a unique and eternal relationship with HaShem which is not shared by the Nations. Any other doctrine which messes with this is simply anti-thetical to MJ. Any group which teaches an anti-thetical doctrine is no MJ.

 

[simchat_torah]

Yes, I think that MJ is defined by the MJAA and its spinoff, the UMJC. They speak for the community

Does it bother you that they are a "minority" of said community?

Does it bother you that MJAA and UMJC reflect very little of the original Netzarim?

 

[GeratTzedek]

Simchat, I'm just going to pass on answering you. "Jewish Chrsitianity" simply doesn't mean all Jews. I don't see where you provided sufficient answer. You seem to think I have not sufficiently answered. We are obviously going to go round and round, which is not productive.

Peace.