Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

[Ohioprof]

We are in a section for debating homosexuality on a Chrisitian messageboard, how did you expect the discussion to go?

There is no judgment here, at least on my part, in otehr words I am not trying to condemn anyone. There is the biblical discerning (and discussing) of sin, lifestyles, etc. I am simply trying to point out biblical truths and encourage repentence.

There is nothing to repent from, and your "encouragement" is insulting. Please stop talking down to gay people. We know more about our lives than you do. Please listen to gay people instead of judging us, which you are most certainly doing, even as you insist you are not.

 

[mont974x4]

Sooo, you favor moral relativism? Then you can't get upset when people are prejudiced, judgemental, or quote Scripture.

 

[Ohioprof]

Sooo, you favor moral relativism? Then you can't get upset when people are prejudiced, judgemental, or quote Scripture.

What do you mean by "moral relativism?" This sounds like you just want to attack people who don't share your particular beliefs.

 

[ChaliceThunder]

Yessir, and Amen!

But, still...where are the scriptures? If a relationship between two people of the same sex wasn't ever blessed in scripture, why should it change now?

It HAS changed - that's what I am living right now.

But to answer your question with a question:
Why should it NOT change?

 

[mont974x4]

The Bible tells us that God does not change, nor do His standards.

 

[Zecryphon]

Being gay is not a sin at all, regardless of your interpretation of the Bible.

It certainly not "loving" for you or anyone else to hound us with your judgments of us. I am not interested in whether you think my being who I am is a "sin." Please keep your judgments to yourself. That would be the loving, and the non-annoying, thing to do.

"Being gay is not a sin at all, regardless of your interpretation of the Bible."

Would you please give us your interpretations of the following verses so we can correctly learn, according to you, the proper way to interpret the Bible.

Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Ti 1:8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 1Ti 1:9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 1Ti 1:10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 1Ti 1:11 in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

"It certainly not "loving" for you or anyone else to hound us with your judgments of us."

We have no judgment of you. What we are giving to you is God's judgment of all people who engage in homosexuality. God has judged that you and everybody else walking the planet is a sinner. If you think being gay somehow absolves you from being a sinner, think again. Society might handle gay people with kid gloves, but God does not. Now on to your claims of being falsely judged by the opposition. We are instructed to judge those in the body of Christ and have scriptural support for it. Are you in the body of Christ? If so, we are free to judge you and you are free to judge us. In fact, I welcome judgment of me, I don't get in a little huff over it, because I know that judgment of me is commanded in scripture. Now I may disagree with your judgment, but I will never tell you that judging me is "unloving".

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

"I am not interested in whether you think my being who I am is a "sin.""

That's good because we're not telling you that we have judged it to be a sin, we are telling you that God has judged it to be a sin. You want to shoot the messengers, when your real problem the boss, God.

"Please keep your judgments to yourself."

Why should we? Are you keeping your judgments to yourself?

"That would be the loving, and the non-annoying, thing to do."

Well God forbid you be annoyed. I mean that would just be the worst thing now, wouldn't it? There is nothing loving about letting anyone, whether they are gay or not, continue in a lifestyle of sin.

 

[mont974x4]

That 1 Cor 5 passage also addresses the part of brothers and sisters holding eachother accountable.

If someone professes to be a Christian then they are accountable to othe Christians.

 

[Ohioprof]

That 1 Cor 5 passage also addresses the part of brothers and sisters holding eachother accountable.

If someone professes to be a Christian then they are accountable to othe Christians.

I am not accountable to you, and I never will be.

 

[Ohioprof]

"Being gay is not a sin at all, regardless of your interpretation of the Bible."

Would you please give us your interpretations of the following verses so we can correctly learn, according to you, the proper way to interpret the Bible.

Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1Ti 1:8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 1Ti 1:9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 1Ti 1:10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 1Ti 1:11 in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

"It certainly not "loving" for you or anyone else to hound us with your judgments of us."

We have no judgment of you. What we are giving to you is God's judgment of all people who engage in homosexuality. God has judged that you and everybody else walking the planet is a sinner. If you think being gay somehow absolves you from being a sinner, think again. Society might handle gay people with kid gloves, but God does not. Now on to your claims of being falsely judged by the opposition. We are instructed to judge those in the body of Christ and have scriptural support for it. Are you in the body of Christ? If so, we are free to judge you and you are free to judge us. In fact, I welcome judgment of me, I don't get in a little huff over it, because I know that judgment of me is commanded in scripture. Now I may disagree with your judgment, but I will never tell you that judging me is "unloving".

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

"I am not interested in whether you think my being who I am is a "sin.""

That's good because we're not telling you that we have judged it to be a sin, we are telling you that God has judged it to be a sin. You want to shoot the messengers, when your real problem the boss, God.

"Please keep your judgments to yourself."

Why should we? Are you keeping your judgments to yourself?

"That would be the loving, and the non-annoying, thing to do."

Well God forbid you be annoyed. I mean that would just be the worst thing now, wouldn't it? There is nothing loving about letting anyone, whether they are gay or not, continue in a lifestyle of sin.

I am trying to stop people like you from attacking gay people and from maligning gay people. When you stop doing that to gay people, then I will have no need to defend us from people like you. But so long as you keep up your attacks on us, we will come back at you....respectfully but firmly.

 

[Zecryphon]

I am not accountable to you, and I never will be.

So you are not a Christian then?

 

[Zecryphon]

I am trying to stop people like you from attacking gay people and from maligning gay people. When you stop doing that to gay people, then I will have no need to defend us from people like you. But so long as you keep up your attacks on us, we will come back at you....respectfully but firmly.

"I am trying to stop people like you from attacking gay people and from maligning gay people."

I have not attacked or maligned anyone. Now since you have put the accusation out there, I would like you to back it up or withdraw it. I want some proof for your statements. Bearing false witness is a sin as well. I believe I asked you to interpret Bible verses so that we could grow in our knowledge together. How is that attacking anyone?

There are attacks in this thread and an attitude of hostility as well, but those are coming from you and you alone. Attacks and false accusations, nothing more, and certainly nothing has been put forth by you to change anyone's mind on this issue. Why is that?

"When you stop doing that to gay people, then I will have no need to defend us from people like you."

I haven't done anything to gay people. Of course if you had some proof for your baseless assertion I guess it would be here, but it isn't. You should really back up your statements with proof, if you want people to take you seriously.

"But so long as you keep up your attacks on us, we will come back at you....respectfully but firmly."

I expect to see some proof of these so-called attacks by myself to you and others in this thread otherwise, I'm going to have to conclude that you sir are nothing more than a person who has to resort to lies and slander because they can not defend their position any other way. Also, if you feel so victimized, file a report against me. But for that report to have any validity you're going to need some proof. Something you seem to be lacking at this point in time.

 

[Ohioprof]

"I am trying to stop people like you from attacking gay people and from maligning gay people."

I have not attacked or maligned anyone. Now since you have put the accusation out there, I would like you to back it up or withdraw it. I want some proof for your statements. Bearing false witness is a sin as well. I believe I asked you to interpret Bible verses so that we could grow in our knowledge together. How is that attacking anyone?

There are attacks in this thread and an attitude of hostility as well, but those are coming from you and you alone. Attacks and false accusations, nothing more, and certainly nothing has been put forth by you to change anyone's mind on this issue. Why is that?

"When you stop doing that to gay people, then I will have no need to defend us from people like you."

I haven't done anything to gay people. Of course if you had some proof for your baseless assertion I guess it would be here, but it isn't. You should really back up your statements with proof, if you want people to take you seriously.

"But so long as you keep up your attacks on us, we will come back at you....respectfully but firmly."

I expect to see some proof of these so-called attacks by myself to you and others in this thread otherwise, I'm going to have to conclude that you sir are nothing more than a person who has to resort to lies and slander because they can not defend their position any other way. Also, if you feel so victimized, file a report against me. But for that report to have any validity you're going to need some proof. Something you seem to be lacking at this point in time.

People do take me seriously. It's clear that you take me seriously, or you would not bother to respond to my posts. If you refrain from calling our relationships "sin," then great. We can have a positive acquaintanceship. But calling our love "sin" is maligning us, and it is slander against gay people. And I for one will challenge you and others when you slander us.

The tone of your previous post suggests that you are not really interested in seeing us "grow in our knowledge together." Your previous post suggests that you want to preach at gay people, to tell gay people that we are living a "lifestyle of sin." In saying that, you are judging gay people, and you are slandering gay people. That's not seeking to grow in knowledge; that's just looking down on gay people from a haughty place and feeling good about yourself because you can point fingers at other people and tell other people that we sin. I do not appreciate that.

When you are willing to stop judging gay people for being who we are, and when you are willing to listen as much as you lecture at us, then I will believe that you are genuinely interested in learning together. Right now I hear your attacks; I don't feel any love coming from you.

Fyi, I am not a "sir." I am a woman.

 

[Ohioprof]

So you are not a Christian then?

I am a Christian. But I do not regard the Bible as the word of God.

 

[Ohioprof]

"I am trying to stop people like you from attacking gay people and from maligning gay people."

I have not attacked or maligned anyone. Now since you have put the accusation out there, I would like you to back it up or withdraw it. I want some proof for your statements. Bearing false witness is a sin as well. I believe I asked you to interpret Bible verses so that we could grow in our knowledge together. How is that attacking anyone?

There are attacks in this thread and an attitude of hostility as well, but those are coming from you and you alone. Attacks and false accusations, nothing more, and certainly nothing has been put forth by you to change anyone's mind on this issue. Why is that?

"When you stop doing that to gay people, then I will have no need to defend us from people like you."

I haven't done anything to gay people. Of course if you had some proof for your baseless assertion I guess it would be here, but it isn't. You should really back up your statements with proof, if you want people to take you seriously.

"But so long as you keep up your attacks on us, we will come back at you....respectfully but firmly."

I expect to see some proof of these so-called attacks by myself to you and others in this thread otherwise, I'm going to have to conclude that you sir are nothing more than a person who has to resort to lies and slander because they can not defend their position any other way. Also, if you feel so victimized, file a report against me. But for that report to have any validity you're going to need some proof. Something you seem to be lacking at this point in time.

Please stop beating up gay people with your Bible. Jesus called on us to love our neighbor as ourself, not to denounce gay people as living a "lifestyle of sin." Being gay is not a "lifestyle of sin." It's not a "lifestyle." It's simply a characteristic of some people. Jesus never said anything against gay people.

 

[Ohioprof]

It's time for me to go pick up my daughter. We are celebrating her grandpa's birthday today, although he died earlier this year. She wants to have a cake and a gift for him, even though he is gone. I do miss my dad terribly, though his passing was gentle, and he lived a long life. We were blessed to have him in our lives.

 

[Zecryphon]

People do take me seriously. It's clear that you take me seriously, or you would not bother to respond to my posts. If you refrain from calling our relationships "sin," then great. We can have a positive acquaintanceship. But calling our love "sin" is maligning us, and it is slander against gay people. And I for one will challenge you and others when you slander us.

I do not rely on Bible verses as any authority, and so no, I will not cite Bible verses. And fyi, I am not a "sir." I am a woman.

"People do take me seriously. It's clear that you take me seriously, or you would not bother to respond to my posts."

I am starting to not take you seriously, because of the lack of proof you have provided for your assertions.

"If you refrain from calling our relationships "sin," then great. We can have a positive acquaintanceship. But calling our love "sin" is maligning us, and it is slander against gay people. And I for one will challenge you and others when you slander us."

You're confusing God's judgment with our judgment. You're saying that we are judging you and maligning you when we call your relationships sin. We are telilng you what God has said about your relationships. If humans rendered their own judgment on this matter, it would probably be something more to your liking because it would sound something like "hey, if it feels good, do it." But that's not what scripture teaches and that's not God's attitude about this matter and that's what we as Christians must proclaim, God's truth, not man's.

"I do not rely on Bible verses as any authority, and so no, I will not cite Bible verses."

I did not ask you to cite Bible verses in my last post, I asked you to interpret some. You didn't. Why not? There can't be any growth or learning on either side if we don't understand how we come to our conclusions about what God has to say on this matter.

"And fyi, I am not a "sir." I am a woman."

My apologies to you ma'am.

 

[Zecryphon]

I am a Christian. But I do not regard the Bible as the word of God.

Why not?

 

[Zecryphon]

Please stop beating up gay people with your Bible. Jesus called on us to love our neighbor as ourself, not to denounce gay people as living a "lifestyle of sin." Being gay is not a "lifestyle of sin." It's not a "lifestyle." It's simply a characteristic of some people. Jesus never said anything against gay people.

"Please stop beating up gay people with your Bible."

I can hardly beat anybody with anything as this is an internet forum and physical contact is not an issue. I find it very interesting that you want to use examples from the Bible, such as Jesus telling us to love our neighbor as ourself, to rebuke Christians with whom you disagree, but have made it clear that the Bible is not any type of authority for you. So how does that work? Do you get to use it when you it suits your fancy and disregard it when it doesn't suit your fancy? That's certainly not consistent behavior.

Jesus often rebuked people in the Bible for their actions. He called the Pharisees a brood of vipers and publicly rebuked the moneychangers in the temple. He gave law to the proud and grace to the humble. He did not come to earth to give us all a great big hug and tell us all that we were doing good in His father's eyes. He came to reconcile us to God with His sacrifice on the cross, to pay the penalty we ALL have earned through our sins against God. Sexual sin is a sin against God too. Don't think just because you're gay, you get a free pass in this area. You don't, we have all sinned and earned God's wrath, which is why we need Jesus as our savior.

"And I do not care what you "expect." Be more respectful toward gay people, please."

You make it clear that you do not care about my expectations yet tell me to be more respectful towards gay people? Don't you find that attitude just a tad bit hypocritical? You don't have to show me or my thoughts any respect ,but I have to respect yours? Please. Respect is earned not given freely or given because someone tells you to do so. If you want respect, you have to give it. I have given it to you thus far, I expect the same in return. But given your previous statement, I probably shouldn't hold my breath, huh?


How would I give more respect to gay people in your estimation? Should I disregard the Bible in the same manner that you do? Should I tell you that your sexual relationships are a-okay, because that would make you feel better about yourself? Should I not judge those in the body of Christ, simply because you have a problem with that behavior? I am servant of Christ, God and the Holy Spirit, I proclaim the truth as revealed by them, not man's truth. If that truth is so offensive to you, you probably shouldn't be in a Christian forum. People tend to quote the Bible frequently here.

 

[Ohioprof]

Why not?

Because I do not believe that it is.

 

[Ohioprof]

"Please stop beating up gay people with your Bible."

I can hardly beat anybody with anything as this is an internet forum and physical contact is not an issue.

"And I do not care what you "expect." Be more respectful toward gay people, please."

You make it clear that you do not care about my expectations yet tell me to be more respectful towards gay people? Don't you find that attitude just a tad bit hypocritical? You don't have to show me or my thoughts any respect but I have to respect yours? Please.

How should I do what you suggest exactly? Should I disregard the Bible in the same manner that you do? Should I tell you that your sexual relationships are a-okay, because that would make you feel better about yourself? Should I not judge those in the body of Christ, simply because you have a problem with that behavior? I am servant of Christ, God and the Holy Spirit, I proclaim the truth as revealed by them, not man's truth. If that truth is so offensive to you, you will have to take it up with the author.

I don't have any respect for you, because of the way you have spoken about gay people. I am not disrespectful toward you because of who you are. I do not disrespect you because you are a Christian. But you have failed to earn my respect, for the way you speak about us. If you change your tone, and if you become willing to treat gay people as your equals and stop judging gay people, then I will respect you. Not now.