What ARE The Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven anyhow?

[squint]

From Matthew 24:

1 Jesus left the temple area and was going away, when his disciples approached him to point out the temple buildings. 2 He said to them in reply, "You see all these things, do you not? Amen, I say to you, there will not be left here a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down."

Jesus is making his prophesie right?

He was speaking of the place where the Jewish people made their sacrifices. The Temple that was built for God and the Holy of Holies. A place that was made to represent the World.

Jesus said more like things to watch for...

Then he says:

15 "When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those in Judea must flee to the mountains

WHO are those "in Judea" my friend? Are there not "children of the flesh" who are NOT ISRAEL???

He says when they see the desolating abomination from Daniel. What is this he is speaking of?

"The desolating abomination: in 167 B.C. the Syrian king Antiochus IV Epiphanes desecrated the temple by setting up in it a statue of Zeus Olympios" from 1 Macc 1:54 On the fifteenth day of the month Chislev, in the year one hundred and forty-five, the king erected the horrible abomination upon the altar of holocausts, and in the surrounding cities of Judah they built pagan altars


Jesus also mentions that they must flee to the mountains...

But WHEN?

Jesus says;
34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
With in ONE generation these things would come to pass. I think we have a couple of things happening here...

First I think we have a fulfilled prophesy from the first generation. Secondly, I think this also foretells a greater Tribulation for the end of all times.

But how did this happen in the first generation?

Jack, there are generations, and there is a "GENERATION" who has not yet passed away, even to this day...

Do you KNOW who "that generation" is? Here's a hint...it is not the generations of your fellow man. Yet many preterists, full and part, have come to that understanding "because" they do not perceive the "generation" that has not yet passed away, and that "generation" has STILL not yet passed away...they are STILL HERE....

Remember these statements?:

John 19
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Rev. 1:
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Now we know Jack, that "they" who pierced Him have long since returned to the dust, YET when Jesus comes THEY will see Him...

so who is THEY Jack? They are NOT your fellow man, and THEY are the "generation" (singular) who have not yet passed away...

If we are to believe the Greek then a generation would be 40 years. Well... what happened around 70 AD which was 40 years from 30 AD or when Christ spoke this approximately. The Romans took the Temple from the Jews and many things led up to this day. There were hundreds of thousands of Jews that died trying to protect their Temple. So we had rumors of war and we have war. We have many of those things Jesus spoke of happening. But what about the skay falling and such? Obviously this is one way of saying the end of time. But can we see the Temple, which was created to represent the world, be a first representation of what is to come? Can the Temple being destroyed be this first representation of the end of the world? For the Jews I am sure it was.

How "long" has Satan existed Jack? Has "Satan" and his family PASSED AWAY yet?

NOPE! And where do we FIND THEM but in the flesh of their HOSTS, mankind??? Didn't Jesus SHOW US THAT???

Then what about the line about the desolating abomination? Did you know that when the Romans took the temple the first thing they did was to place a statue of an eagle in the temple for worship? Just like the story of Daniel when the Syrian King placed a statue of Zeus Olympios. This desocrated the Temple.

We know that the Temple of God is OUR BODIES Jack, and there is and has been "usurpers" in our flesh and in the flesh of ALL MANKIND.

LOOK to Peter when Jesus gave him up as AN EXAMPLE of Satan's occupancy...LOOK to Judas whom SATAN entered... and you will see the desecration of the TEMPLES of mankind.

And what about fleeing to the mountains? Did you know that at this time in history all the Chrisitans fled to Mount Pella and were not there when the Roman soldiers took and destroyed the Temple?

We are provided many "physical examples" of spiritual and "anti-spiritual" activity, but the reality does not reside in the physical, but in the spiritual pitted against the anti-Christ/anti-spiritual.

So, millions of Jews died and the Chrisitans were safe on Mount Pella.

Cool huh?

Preterism bores me to tears. Sorry.

I asked you how you might propose that we "rid ourselves" of sin etc...

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

I would look in this chapter to line 24...

"Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant"

It is through Jesus, the Lamb, that we are saved. Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice for us and paid for our sins. But there is more...

My question remains...HOW do we "rid ourselves" of EVERY SIN and BURDEN, yet NOT being able to say we have NO SIN and be IN TRUTH???

It's a legitimate question.

 

[squint]

Psalm 87:4
I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me

Psalm 89:
9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.

Isaiah 51:
8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon? 10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

When my friends was RAHAB CUT???

Israel DIVIDED her LAND, her BODY and destroyed HER city...took HER Gate...

RESTORED her, that harlot, and put her in the LINEAGE of our CHRIST by that same division that Israel showed.

James 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Hebrews 11:31
By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not

Was RAHAB not DIVIDED in the same way that PETER was DIVIDED from SATAN???

enjoy!

squint

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

My question remains...HOW do we "rid ourselves" of EVERY SIN and BURDEN, yet NOT being able to say we have NO SIN and be IN TRUTH???

It's a legitimate question.

Perhaps all sin isn't "abolished" until the End of the Age?

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the Mount of the olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the Sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>, and the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'

 

[squint]

Perhaps all sin isn't "abolished" until the End of the Age?

I am VERY GLAD someone's ears have been pierced!

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the Mount of the olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the Sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>, and the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'

When indeed...Only The Father knows that "time."

 

[Fireinfolding]

Why not?

Squint, because

Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

God justified Jobs words

Job 42:7... for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

(I liked your previous post btw fif. Very "insightful." If I knew how to send you rep, I would have, but I haven't figured it out yet...

Aw thanks squint, I turn them off because I'm so not interested in reputation toys

In comparison to God, yes, but God has given us as His, HIS measure of Perfection, yet we also know that Perfection, as God Is, NEVER ENDS eh?

We are to grow up into the perfect man.

Ironically James says the perfect man offends not IN WORD ...which is what we are speaking of right now right?

Jesus speaks of bearing fruit unto perfection and Paul of going onto perfection. Its that BE YE thang. Its God Who is, WE are made perfect IN LOVE (in God). Love doesnt seek its own, so I doubt it will be trumpeting "Im without sin: or "I am perfect"

And that remains a truthful measure and one who is HIS will not "deny" that statement because to do so is to NOT be in Truth eh?

Hows it read to you Squint? Do you see it saying otherwise?

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

dont SAY IT, is that too difficult?

So my question remains, even as the answer for this question has already been addressed in this thread.

I did not understand this response at all Squint.

I havent read the whole thread maybe that could be the reason huh?

Ah, but we also know that Job was both "corrected" and "restored" don't we? The mouth of Job is not the mouth of Gods Word.

This is your reply to a VERSE?

Well it sorta is Squint, given it was GOD who said Job spake what was RIGHT about Him and did NOT SIN with HIS LIPS (ie James "perfect man") which is MY POINT about SAYING (or speaking right things) which Job did.

I didnt quote JOBS FREINDS Squint (They certainly didnt speak what was right about God) But JOB DID by Gods own mouth He said so.

Job had to pray for his freinds, they stood corrected.

Verrry true. Yet we also have the prior observation, and others, that we are to SEPARATE ourselves "from" iniquity. So my dear one, HOW do YOU propose that transpires in the light of the truth that John lays before us?

It means dont do it, Sin will not have dominion over you because your not under the law (the power of sin) but grace, its not a license to sin. Its the grace of God teaches us TO DENY worldly and ungodly lusts. Whereas the law EMPOWERED IT.

You wouldnt be implying the grace of God doesnt teach us to deny these things? Or that sin is to have dominion in our lives? I wouldnt think you would (just checking)

The verse simply says, IF WE SAY we are without sin we deceive ourselves.

Do you feel we should run around saying this?

Job knew if his own lips declared what God did (of Him) it would ~prove him~ perverse. This appears very consistent with the apostles when it comes to saying "we are without sin" (self deceptive).

I would measure no Child of God as anything less than perfect and ALL MANKIND are Gods offspring...so where then should we GO with these types of admonitions? You do realize that God has planted A GAFFE to lay these things upon do you not?

Dont SAY it?

What do you want me to say? "ignore it" go aheadm just say it? LOL

Are we in the flesh after a carnal truth or a spiritual truth because its WHILE we were IN THE FLESH the motions of sins were by the law.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, ~if so be~ that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I dont know what the heck GAFFE is

We get what we measure...what we bind is BOUND and there are "some" (not our fellow man) who SHOULD AND ARE bound by the measure of Gods Words..."these" are not Gods offspring whom all mankind are...

Please refer to my post about SATAN in PETER and you may see what The Word was "delivering" into our hands on this matter.

enjoy!

I read ya before at KingdomTalk Squint, Im sorta familiar with some of the things you post (if your the same person I am thinking of).

I do agree with some of the things you post Squint, even as I agree with others on some things as well (no doubt). We all know in part and share in part. I might not see everything your seeing but you have made some points here I do agree with.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Perhaps all sin isn't "abolished" until the End of the Age?

Matthew 24:3 He is yet sitting on the Mount of the olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what the Sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>, and the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'

I am VERY GLAD someone's ears have been pierced!


When indeed...Only The Father knows that "time."

That is a loooong time from this "baptism" in Luke 12:50 till the end of that "mysterious" 1000yr period especially since the same exact form of this greek word "to finish/mature" is used in it.
Perhaps the Father has told His children, but we are perhaps yet to comprehend it. It is fascinating though.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

telesqh <5055> (5686) ! Luke 12:50, Reve 20:3,5,7.

Luke 12:50 A baptism yet I am having to be baptized, and how I am being full-pressed/sun-ecomai <4912> (5743) till-any it should be being finished/telesqh <5055> (5686) !

Revelation 20:3 and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years should be being finished/telesqh <5055> (5686); and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.

Hows it read to you Squint? Do you see it saying otherwise?

Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

God justified Jobs words

Job 42:7... for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

dont SAY IT, is that too difficult?

Ahhhh! I couldn't have said it any better FiYa!! I put the book of Job right up there with Isaiah.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

My question remains...HOW do we "rid ourselves" of EVERY SIN and BURDEN, yet NOT being able to say we have NO SIN and be IN TRUTH???

It's a legitimate question.

Could you be looking for an answer that is typically short 'lived'?

Baptism?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Could you be looking for an answer that is typically short 'lived'?

Baptism?

Baptism: Blood, Water and Fire:

Mark 15:20 And when they deride/enepaixan <1702> to Him, they out-slip Him the purple, and they in-slip Him the garments/imatia <2440>, the own, and out-leading Him that they should be crucifying Him.

Luke 16:24 And he sounding, said--Father Abraham! be mercifull to-me! and send Lazarus! , that he should be dipping/bayh <911> (5661) the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in this, the flame.

Revelation 19:13 and he is arrayed with a garment/imation <2440> having been dipped/bebammenon <911> (5772) with blood, and his name is called, The Word of God.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Baptism: Blood, Water and Fire:

Mark 15:20 And when they deride/enepaixan <1702> to Him, they out-slip Him the purple, and they in-slip Him the garments/imatia <2440>, the own, and out-leading Him that they should be crucifying Him.

Luke 16:24 And he sounding, said--Father Abraham! be mercifull to-me! and send Lazarus! , that he should be dipping/bayh <911> (5661) the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in this, the flame.

Revelation 19:13 and he is arrayed with a garment/imation <2440> having been dipped/bebammenon <911> (5772) with blood, and his name is called, The Word of God.

So, all our sins are wiped clean and original sin. That is a miracle.

But after we are baptised we still have desires of the flesh and so we sin again.

Now we are no longer this clean vessel for the Holy Spirit and our temple is unclean. So how do we clean house?

 

[squint]

Squint, because

Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

God justified Jobs words

Job 42:7... for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

Job had a rather lengthy discourse with his friends and with God. Job, like all of us, only saw in part, and Job's words were not "incorrect" per your citing.

My question was and will remain, HOW is it that we are to RID ourselves of every sin and burden? HOW is it that we are to DEPART from iniquity? And this in the LIGHT of the disclosure that we CANNOT SAY we have NO SIN?

Aw thanks squint, I turn them off because I'm so not interested in reputation toys

I hear ya.

We are to grow up into the perfect man.

Ironically James says the perfect man offends not IN WORD ...which is what we are speaking of right now right?

Uh, not really. See prior question.

Jesus speaks of bearing fruit unto perfection and Paul of going onto perfection. Its that BE YE thang. Its God Who is, WE are made perfect IN LOVE (in God). Love doesnt seek its own, so I doubt it will be trumpeting "Im without sin: or "I am perfect"

You're getting warmer... I'm looking for your form of division and separation from SIN and INIQUITY and BURDENS in these matters.

Hows it read to you Squint? Do you see it saying otherwise?

1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

dont SAY IT, is that too difficult?

I have no issues whatsoever in saying that sin dwells in me, which same in cause or in action is OF THE DEVIL. See the DIVISION?

I did not understand this response at all Squint.

Most won't because of that same presence in our flesh that does not want to be exposed as a separate entity from Gods offspring, all mankind. The presence of evil is very much entwined into our hearts and minds making us think it's ONLY US. I doubt Peter was much aware that as he spoke it was not him, but SATAN.

I havent read the whole thread maybe that could be the reason huh?

Well, it started about Peter and the keys to the kingdom from the Matt. 16 stretch.

This is your reply to a VERSE?

I dispute with no scripture quote. Reflections from "others" are what interest me.

Well it sorta is Squint, given it was GOD who said Job spake what was RIGHT about Him and did NOT SIN with HIS LIPS (ie James "perfect man") which is MY POINT about SAYING (or speaking right things) which Job did.

I believe Job came to grips with the postion that God placed him into, and also divided himself per Gods Words in these matters. All Gods offspring are in fact perfect, but God Himself has bound us all in the flesh to imperfection that is NOT us as His.

In this light I have no cause with any person but to love them, and right judgment can still remain. dig?

I didnt quote JOBS FREINDS Squint(They certainly didnt speak what was right about God) But JOB DID by Gods own mouth He said so.

Elihu did an excellent job for Job and for God. The others however did not speak what was right.

Elihu spoke from the Spirit of God in agreement.

It means dont do it, Sin will not have dominion over you because your not under the law (the power of sin) but grace, its not a license to sin. Its the grace of God teaches us TO DENY worldly and ungodly lusts. Whereas the law EMPOWERED IT.

Generally agreed, but good performances does not rid us of the presence of indwelling sin eh?

You wouldnt be implying the grace of God doesnt teach us to deny these things? Or that sin is to have dominion in our lives? I wouldnt think you would (just checking)

Nope. Grace is entirely sufficient for all mankind apart from works. This does not mean however that all who are presently in the flesh operate from that understanding. Even the opposite as you have observed concerning the Law and it's arousal, activation and empowerment of SIN indwelling unto actions.

The verse simply says, IF WE SAY we are without sin we deceive ourselves.

So the above question remains...

Do you feel we should run around saying this?

I believe acknowledgement of the facts is a crucial component to being honest, which God is certainly not against. But of course there is a very fine line and a clean cut, as God in Christ did not and does not count sins against mankind. Where then do we go for judgment in these matters? We certainly cannot ignore sin or sinful actions by saying so what, it's not counted can we?

Job knew if his own lips declared what God did (of Him) it would ~prove him~ perverse. This appears very consistent with the apostles when it comes to saying "we are without sin" (self deceptive).

Blaming "self/Job" would appear to me to be just another way of counting sins against Job. I have a couple of quotes from Job that I may pull out later to show how Job "divided" himself in these matters with Gods Word assistance.

Dont SAY it?

What do you want me to say? "ignore it" go aheadm just say it? LOL

There is a most profitable ending to these matters and questions when we look to the temporal cause of sin that God has made and bound us all with.

Are we in the flesh after a carnal truth or a spiritual truth because its WHILE we were IN THE FLESH the motions of sins were by the law.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, ~if so be~ that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

I dont know what the heck GAFFE is

A gaffe is a blunder(er.)

I read ya before at KingdomTalk Squint, Im sorta familiar with some of the things you post (if your the same person I am thinking of).

Probably.

I do agree with some of the things you post Squint, even as I agree with others on some things as well (no doubt). We all know in part and share in part. I might not see everything your seeing but you have made some points here I do agree with.

If you love your fellow mankind, I will have little if any cause with you on the negative side of the ledger.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

Could you be looking for an answer that is typically short 'lived'?

Baptism?

At this point Jack I'd be thrilled with any type of legible response to the question.

Being constantly "in" then "out" does not cut it as it did not "rid" other than "temporarily" and then "not."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So, all our sins are wiped clean and original sin. That is a miracle.

But after we are baptised we still have desires of the flesh and so we sin again.

Now we are no longer this clean vessel for the Holy Spirit and our temple is unclean. So how do we clean house?

Gotta bind that "strong one" first and that is what the Holy Spirit does.
Before JESUS, the only way to have done that is with "Sacrifices" which was done away with.

Matthew 12:29 `Or how is one able to be into-coming/eiselqein<1525> (5629) into the House of the strong-one, and the goods/skeuh <4632> of him to snatch-away/diarpasai <1283> (5658) , if ever no first he should be binding/dhsh <1210> (5661) the strong-one? And then his house he shall be snatching-away/diarpasei <1283> (5692). [Mark 3:27]

Reve 15:8 And is dense, the Sanctuary, of smoke out of the glory of the God and out of the power of Him. And No One was able to be into-coming/eiselqein<1525> (5629) into the Sanctuary until should be being consummated/telesqwsin <5055> (5686)the seven stripes of the seven messengers.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Gotta bind that "strong one" first and that is what the Holy Spirit does.
Before JESUS, the only way to have done that is with "Sacrifices" which was done away with.

Matthew 12:29 `Or how is one able to be into-coming/eiselqein<1525> (5629) into the House of the strong-one, and the goods/skeuh <4632> of him to snatch-away/diarpasai <1283> (5658) , if ever no first he should be binding/dhsh <1210> (5661) the strong-one? And then his house he shall be snatching-away/diarpasei <1283> (5692). [Mark 3:27]

Reve 15:8 And is dense, the Sanctuary, of smoke out of the glory of the God and out of the power of Him. And No One was able to be into-coming/eiselqein<1525> (5629) into the Sanctuary until should be being consummated/telesqwsin <5055> (5686)the seven stripes of the seven messengers.

Hmmm

I was thinking more along the lines of Confession and Repentance.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

At this point Jack I'd be thrilled with any type of legible response to the question.

Being constantly "in" then "out" does not cut it as it did not "rid" other than "temporarily" and then "not."

I do not follow you???

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hmmm

I was thinking more along the lines of Confession and Repentance.

Hi.

No need to go to a hugh ornamated church building, into a secret little compartment to ask a priest to forgive me every time I have made a "boo-boo". That is what JESUS died for.

Reve 19:3 and a second time They have declared "Hallelujah and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"

Ezra 3:12 And many of the priests, and the Levites/Leviyiy, and the Chiefs/ro'sh of the fathers, the elders/zaqen, who had seen the first House/bayith--in this house being founded before their eyes-- are weeping with a loud voice, and Many with a Shout/t@ruw`ah, in Joy, lifting up the voice;

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Hi.

No need to go to a hugh ornamated church building, into a secret little compartment to ask a priest to forgive me every time I have made a "boo-boo". That is what JESUS died for.

The way Catholic understands this repentance and confession business is that Jesus gave the Bishops the power to loose and bind and it is with this power that sins continue to be forgiven.

It is like when Jesus forgave the harlot and then said "sin no more". We know Jesus and those that receive the charismatic gifts to loose and bind can forgive our sins. But we are fallible humans and will sin again.

So, we keep track of Apostolic succession to show the chain of trasferred powers of the spirit given to these men through the laying on of hands and such. As Catholics we only recognize this power as being present in a priest in communion with the same church of the Apostles and having received their gifts of the Spirit through the same church.

You can see how a Catholic cannot find confession simply through a prayer to God. I am not saying it is impossible but very unlikely. This (like the New Testament) is part of our Apostolic Tradition.

 

[squint]

I do not follow you???

How did you "rid yourself" of every sin and burden when it obviously didn't work on any permanent basis?

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ

 

[JacktheCatholic]

How did you "rid yourself" of every sin and burden when it obviously didn't work on any permanent basis?

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ

Baptism does some very important thing.

It cleanses us of all sins.

It removes original sin.

It fills us with the Holy Spirit.

It incorporates us in to the body of Christ.

Very very important stuff.

But it does not keep us cleansed of sins for the rest of our lives. Scripture does not say that. So we can soil the temple of the Holy Spirit by sinning and we can fall from grace.

 

[squint]

Baptism does some very important thing.

It cleanses us of all sins.

It removes original sin.

It fills us with the Holy Spirit.

It incorporates us in to the body of Christ.

Very very important stuff.

But it does not keep us cleansed of sins for the rest of our lives. Scripture does not say that. So we can soil the temple of the Holy Spirit by sinning and we can fall from grace.

Jack, if this is true, then who are "you" when "you" sin?

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil

??