There is no Hell!

[IisJustMe]

It is also apparent that there are many ages yet to come, for Paul writes "that in the ages (plural) to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness towards us through Christ Jesus." [Eph. 2:7]

Translated "ages" in both the KJV and the NASB, the Greek word aion means "forever, an unbroken age, a perpetuity of time." Paul is saying that, in eternity -- when we are in heaven and the dead in Christ are in hell and the Lake of Fire -- Jesus will show us the exceeding riches of His grace.

There is no reason, based on that being your opening statement, to look at the rest of the post.

 

[Followers4christ]

The Jewish's Temple will never be built again in natural Israel; it will never happen; God has a temple right now; not built with human hands. that It is a spiritual temple within; is where God dwells. Not is some man made building.

People said the same thing about Israel.People said that Israel would never be reborn and that the scriptures were talking about spiritual Israel (the church).But God rebuilt Israel in one day (Isaiah 66:8) just as he promised in May 14th, 1948 the nation of Israel was reborn.Just as he will rebuild his temple in Israel.

Rebuilt temple in Israel anticipated (Daniel 9:27; 12:11; Mark 13:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 11:1-2). The prophet Daniel, Jesus, Paul, and John all refer to the temple in the last days. Therefore we know it must be rebuilt. Preparations by the Temple Institute are nearly complete! God Bless


Jeremiah 30:3 The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD."

Ezekiel 34:12-13 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.

Ezekiel 36:24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.

 

[SoundCard]

Again you fail to actually address the question which even the original poster MichaelTheArchangel addressed. And all that you posted only means there's an eternity ahead, and again the author is only splitting hairs based on nitpicking the original words used, which again I said shouldn't even matter! Heck, ISAIAH 59:21 says it shouldn't matter! Unless you can't believe that passage either, and God's word does have variation, in which case you're calling Him a liar there. You didn't even address my post in the least! If God is so unbound by our own conventions then why is it beyond Him by your reckoning to make something that should be fairly obvious, to ANYONE reading the Bible without a preconceived agenda of how salvation is granted to the sinner? You say your ideas are departed from the main stream, well guess what, I'm fairly certain there's a good reason for that, and it's not because you've stumbled onto something that's some hidden truth. The way is narrow and few will find it. Is that said just to be saying it? Or let me guess, the original Greek word for narrow and has 50 definitions, and you're going to choose the most obscure one that which best suits your views? You're picking and choosing scripture to support your argument like someone who spells something out from clipping words out of a newspaper! You're getting a message, but those words are being taken extremely out of context. I believe God loves me more than I can fathom, and I believe he loves me so much, that I can come to learn and understand what he was really saying in the Bible based on the Bible alone, with the translation that is available to me, without having to go back and look at whatever Greek word is being used at the time. Since you're so fond of looking up the Greek, find the entire passage back in the original Greek. Translate THAT entire sentence, instead of a single word, and look at the context. I may not be a Greek major, I may not know a single letter of it! But I do know grammar, and I do know the basic principles of speech. The verb tense should be apparent. The layout of the structure SHOULD make sense, and if it's in prophecy you'd best be REALLY careful because it tends to get tricky then from what I hear, and I don't rightly know anyone who can fully understand that, and for you to say you've figured out some age old mystery makes me think you're not doing this for the sake of love, but rather the sake of pride in this doctrine which you follow so adamantly and preach like it's a forgotten Gospel.

 

[Ben12]

Translated "ages" in both the KJV and the NASB, the Greek word aion means "forever, an unbroken age, a perpetuity of time." Paul is saying that, in eternity -- when we are in heaven and the dead in Christ are in hell and the Lake of Fire -- Jesus will show us the exceeding riches of His grace.

There is no reason, based on that being your opening statement, to look at the rest of the post.

Amen; I understand

 

[Ben12]

Soundcard;

You are very rich; this has nothing to do with how much money you have; it has everything to do with all the preconceived dogmas you have; just like rich man in Lazarus; or the rich man who cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. We speak a total different language in scripture then I; for many years I believed the same as you.

Your splitting of hairs as you call it is a difference between billions to go to a eternal torture chamber, and salvation of the whole world.

I never called God a liar; I will always call men liars; especially religious men

 

[PeacaHeaven]

 

[Lightbearer3]

Then what has Jesus saved us from? What does "where the worm (spirit) dies not" mean?
truth sets free, lies confuse. What does the rich man say? Father Abraham, let Lasarus dip his finger in water and give to me, for I am tormented in this flame, mean? BTW, it is not noted in anywhere in this account that this is a parable, so I take it literal. I've only read the first 2/3 pages of this thread, so if these points have already been, forgive me.

 

[Tavita]

Then what has Jesus saved us from? What does "where the worm (spirit) dies not" mean?
truth sets free, lies confuse. What does the rich man say? Father Abraham, let Lasarus dip his finger in water and give to me, for I am tormented in this flame, mean? BTW, it is not noted in anywhere in this account that this is a parable, so I take it literal. I've only read the first 2/3 pages of this thread, so if these points have already been, forgive me.

Jesus saved us from sin and death. Jesus paid the punishment for our sins, descended down into Hell and took the keys. He conquered death for us.

He didn't go to Gehenna, he is not suffering the worm and eternal torment in flames for us. Because that is not the wages of sin. The wages of sin is death, and we know that until we are born again from on high, we are dead in our sins and trespasses.

Can someone please show me from scripture that Jesus paid for some other kind of debt? And the result being eternal torment?

BTW, it is not noted in anywhere in this account that this is a parable, so I take it literal. I've only read the first 2/3 pages of this thread, so if these points have already been, forgive me.

Yes, it was covered about five or six pages back.

 

[RefrusRevlis]

I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RefrusRevlis
The sentiment that God would not punish people eternally, ignores the terrible nature of sin. We all deserve eternal punishment, but through Jesus we can escape. There is no place for reasoning away eternal punishment because it doesn't fit into our preconceived ideas of how God should be.

Refrus

Ben 12 said:

What is greater the Blood of Jesus or the sin of Adam?

My response:

Your question is irrelevant.

Refrus

 

[GuardianShua]

Then what has Jesus saved us from? What does "where the worm (spirit) dies not" mean?
truth sets free, lies confuse. What does the rich man say? Father Abraham, let Lasarus dip his finger in water and give to me, for I am tormented in this flame, mean? BTW, it is not noted in anywhere in this account that this is a parable, so I take it literal. I've only read the first 2/3 pages of this thread, so if these points have already been, forgive me.

Jesus came speaking in parabols to fulfill prophecy; that being true, we need to be careful in our understanding of what is said.

 

[RefrusRevlis]

I just thought this point needs to be clarified: Death is not non-existence. Non existence is not punishment. To be punished eternally, we must have some sort of continual existence, though this is not called life. This existence is "away from the presence of the Lord" (and this I believe, is the true horror of eternal punishment).
2 Thess 1:6-9
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,


Consider the following verses:

Psalm 116:15

Precious in the sight of the Lord Is the death of His saints.​

Ezek 33:11​

Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’​

If death is non-existence,and we replace the word "death" with "non-existence",We have God regarding the non-existence of the saints as precious and at the same time having no delight in the non-existence of the wicked. Hmm​

Refrus​

 

[SoundCard]

Soundcard;

You are very rich; this has nothing to do with how much money you have; it has everything to do with all the preconceived dogmas you have; just like rich man in Lazarus; or the rich man who cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. We speak a total different language in scripture then I; for many years I believed the same as you.

Your splitting of hairs as you call it is a difference between billions to go to a eternal torture chamber, and salvation of the whole world.

I never called God a liar; I will always call men liars; especially religious men

Yet even there, it speaks of the Rich Man in Lazarus having material goods and Lazarus having none. And the rich man who cannot enter the kingdom of heaven is because he cares more for his material possessions than following the Lord. I'm not rich, I have things yes, but not rich. I care more for the lord than my possessions. Even in your reproach to me you take scripture out of alignment. And now you say my fate is like theirs? I don't think that's appropriate in the least. And it IS a matter of billions facing eternal condemnation or salvation. That's why it's so important to have Faith! You have just as many preconceived notions as I do, and a dogma of your own which you have been spouting on about for the last ten pages or more.

 

[Tavita]

Yet even there, it speaks of the Rich Man in Lazarus having material goods and Lazarus having none. And the rich man who cannot enter the kingdom of heaven is because he cares more for his material possessions than following the Lord. I'm not rich, I have things yes, but not rich. I care more for the lord than my possessions. Even in your reproach to me you take scripture out of alignment. And now you say my fate is like theirs? I don't think that's appropriate in the least. And it IS a matter of billions facing eternal condemnation or salvation. That's why it's so important to have Faith! You have just as many preconceived notions as I do, and a dogma of your own which you have been spouting on about for the last ten pages or more.

The rich man is symbolic of the House of Judah...

Purple is the color of royalty. Fine linen stands for righteousness in this instance the righteousness of the law, established by the priests and Levites who, dressed in white linen, officiated in the sacrifices and ceremonies of the nation. The rich man was "clothed in purple and fine linen." Those who are in purple are rulers. The rich man was a ruler. And Jesus never uttered His parables or sermons concerning someone away off in Siberia or China. He spoke to and of the Jews, the church of His day. Judah was the royal tribe, and purple is the color pertaining to royalty. The kingdom of Judah had the ministry of the priesthood - clothed in fine linen. The whole nation, in fact, was called to be a kingdom of priests unto God (Ex. 19:6). By this language Christ was making His meaning very clear to the Pharisees.

This rich man "fared sumptuously every day." But this is not talking about natural food. The Jewish nation was the favorite of heaven - rich in the mercies and blessings of the Lord. No nation in the history of time had been so highly favored as the house of Judah. They had the elaborate sacrificial service of the great and glorious temple in Jerusalem. They had the scriptures, the holy law and covenant of Yahweh. They had the oracles of God, the prophets. They were rich in covenants and promises, rich in the word of God that had been delivered to them. Judah was, indeed, a RICH MAN - with the very riches from the hand of God - rich in oil and wine, rich in doctrine, rich in word, rich in history of holy men, rich in ritual and pomp and ceremony. Ah - how rich he was! Paul spoke exultantly of this vast wealth possessed by Judah, saying, "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh: who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever" (Rom. 9:3-5).

The final factor identifying the rich man is the fact that he had "five brothers." "I pray therefore father ABRAHAM, that you would send him to my father's house: for I have FIVE BRETHREN; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment" (Lk. 16:27-28). He mentions the fact that his brethren were five in number. But why five? If this is not a parable we can hardly see the reason why the number of his brethren should be so definitely enumerated. If it is a parable then the number given is as symbolic, and significant, as any other item in the story. Naturally we ask who are these five brethren. The rich man is a son of ABRAHAM, through Isaac and Jacob, and you have only to read through the lists of the offspring of Abraham to find out who it was that had five brethren. "Now the sons of Jacob were twelve: the sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob's first born, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun: the sons of Rachel; Joseph, and Benjamin: and the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali: and the sons of Zilpah, Leah's handmaid; Gad, and Asher: these are the sons of Jacob, which were born to him in Padan-aram" (Gen. 35:22-26). This passage plainly reveals that JUDAH had five brethren. Jacob's first wife was Leah, and of Leah were born Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun. These were all full-blood brothers. Judah was one of Leah's six sons. He had five brethren! So when this rich man says, "I've got five brethren," it identifies who he is! If this telling detail has no significance for modern evangelists who preach from this parable, let me assure you that it meant a great deal to those to whom Jesus was speaking, because they knew their history, they held great pride in their ancestry, they knew who their brethren were, they knew exactly who He was talking about! It established to them the identity of the rich man Judah, the southern kingdom of the Jews!

Taken from an article by J Preston Eby.

 

[SoundCard]

I'm of the inclination it isn't a parable.

 

[Tavita]

I'm of the inclination it isn't a parable.

Then can you explain why in Luke 15 and 16 we have five stories in a row, spoken one after the other, and they're all parables except that one? He was giving them parables of the Kingdom.

 

[Ben12]

God does not care about your earthy possessions; what He cares about is that you are poor in spirit; in other words all you desire is to hear him. I understand the anger of a lot of you; my purpose was to cut thought all the doom and gloom of two thousands years of religious bias. This always offense but no matter how deep or shallow the truth of Christ will penetrate and offend.

All your so call spiritual understanding on the earth natural plain; you know nothing of what is spiritual. Your faith is in your degrees, religion, and denominational system; not in Christ. Christ means anointing and there were three very awesome examples in the OT.

I believe there is a real spiritual Church; I also believe there are also carnal churches, intercultural churches, and intellectual churches and the list goes on. God is a spirit not a brain. BUT what does the Bible say how God choices his anointed?

David was king; He was God’s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was anointed as child. Today’s ministry is chosen by men. I have found men of God that I know anointed by the deepness of their understanding not because they have been voted in or out by some church committee; or went to some religious Cemetery opps I mean Seminary. David walked for many years and knew He had an anointing; but he kept it to himself and understood that Saul was God’s anointed; that is until the appointed time. I think we are better off to wait for God to anoint God’s chosen vessel then to anoint our own. Also let us not forget Solomon who was also anointed of God; but because of his marriages with many women a his heart was turned to false idols he became corrupt. Reminds me of all the different religions out there that man has married into; there is only one way; Christ with in.

 

[SoundCard]

In response to the Lazarus and the Rich man, I admit I may not fully know what it means. I don't have all the answers.
But in response to Ben12, don't you see something a bit strange about that reasoning? 2000 years of religious doom and gloom? And all of a sudden you have an answer? Is it really breaking a tradition of misonception or is it just another misappropriated interpetation of scripture? And as far as how spiritually poor or rich I am, that's not something for you to decide, and I'll let God be the judge of that thank you. I don't think either of us are quite right here. I don't believe all will be saved because not all will have Faith, but the numbers may not be as staggering as one may think. God would not force someone to love him. That isn't love at all, which is the choice we are given. Reconciliation through fires of hell would only make one who detests the Lord detest them more. Hence the gnashing of teeth as it were. Either way I'm not convinced of the concept of universal reconcilliation. It's just unsound to me.

 

[Ben12]

In response to the Lazarus and the Rich man, I admit I may not fully know what it means. I don't have all the answers.
But in response to Ben12, don't you see something a bit strange about that reasoning? 2000 years of religious doom and gloom? And all of a sudden you have an answer? Is it really breaking a tradition of misonception or is it just another misappropriated interpetation of scripture? And as far as how spiritually poor or rich I am, that's not something for you to decide, and I'll let God be the judge of that thank you. I don't think either of us are quite right here. I don't believe all will be saved because not all will have Faith, but the numbers may not be as staggering as one may think. God would not force someone to love him. That isn't love at all, which is the choice we are given. Reconciliation through fires of hell would only make one who detests the Lord detest them more. Hence the gnashing of teeth as it were. Either way I'm not convinced of the concept of universal reconcilliation. It's just unsound to me.

It is not something for me to decide if you are spiritual or carnal; but what does spiritual mean. Does it only mean you go to church, or pray or perhaps sin and shout like the Pentecostals; or how about hearing something other then the letter that killeth?

The Word mystery is mentioned 27 times in the NT; show me; give me some spiritual mystery (Gk) Sacred secret). Not some shallow earthbound religious tradition.

Take manna. A beautiful type of how we should approach God's heavenly Word. OT conceal Christ, NT reveal Christ.

​

​

Revelation 2:17​

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches (Gk) outcalled/assembles). To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.​

​

1 Corin 10:11​

Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.​

This chapter in the New Testament shows us that God uses both His Old and New Testament for our admonition and King James inserted the word “World” which would be better translated as age. What better way to understand what is hidden in the OT by seeing what the Bible has to say about it.

​

Exodus 16:15
And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.​

​

Manna is symbolism for God’s Word and if you read on His Hidden Word. Manna was the food the Children of Israel ate in there forty years in the wilderness. It was food that God gave His chosen people during their long and difficult journey. But it is even more for God’s people if we can only look at that pattern and examples. It took the children of Israel forty years to cross a wilderness that should of taken 9 days. But God had a much more awesome reasoning to allow this journey

Every day God’s chosen people had to gather fresh, new manna for if they tried to eat yesterdays manna it stunk. Today God wants us to gather flesh new manna daily, for if all you eat is the old; it stinks worn out bread of tradition; it is not the new wine but old. New wine is better then the old, etc.

Deut. 8:2​

Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. 3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD. 4 Your clothes did not wear out and your feet did not swell during these forty years. 5 Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the LORD your God disciplines you.​

​

​

Manna means “what is it” or as Strong’s Concordance will point out it also includes what, how, when and why. You see the deeper you dig in to God’s Word you are never satisfied; but at the same time very satisfied. Manna has been known as many thing and a few examples would be “Bread of God”, “Corn from heaven”, “angel food”, and bread of the mighty. Just like the Word of God; our manna we eat today is spiritual or the Word of God; not the letter that killeth but the Word anointed by God‘s Spirit.

​

In the Tabernacle or Temple was the Shew Bread which was in the Holy Place; this bread was for all who entered in to receive it. But in the Ark of the Covenant was manna. This manna was hidden from the view of the Children of Israel and is an awesome example of the hidden manna mentioned in the verse above. But this manna had another characteristic about it; it did not perish like the manna in the wilderness.

 

[Ben12]

You keep pointing to me like I am the only person who believes this way; as I said in an earlier there are thousand of people like me and we have no Pope, Bishop or Religious HQ in Springfield MO or any other place. Our head is Christ; our leadership is the spirit of truth. This movement has been going on as far back as I know but orthodox has done everything they can to suppress it. AS far as God forcing someone; He sure is going to force them in an eternal hell if you are right. But actually God does force people in my words; but let me give you His Words.

Romans 3:11 ​

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God​

​

John 6:44​

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws​

(drag Greek) him, and I will raise him up at the last day​

​

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o); drag ​

​

Show me where we are saved by choice? ​

​

 

[spiritlead]

It is not something for me to decide if you are spiritual or carnal; but what does spiritual mean. Does it only mean you go to church, or pray or perhaps sin and shout like the Pentecostals; or how about hearing something other then the letter that killeth?

The Word mystery is mentioned 27 times in the NT; show me; give me some spiritual mystery (Gk) Sacred secret). Not some shallow earthbound religious tradition.

Take manna. A beautiful type of how we should approach God's heavenly Word. OT conceal Christ, NT reveal Christ.

​

Revelation 2:17

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches (Gk) outcalled/assembles). To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.​

1 Corin 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.​

This chapter in the New Testament shows us that God uses both His Old and New Testament for our admonition and King James inserted the word “World” which would be better translated as age. What better way to understand what is hidden in the OT by seeing what the Bible has to say about it.

Exodus 16:15

And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.​

​

Manna is symbolism for God’s Word and if you read on His Hidden Word. Manna was the food the Children of Israel ate in there forty years in the wilderness. It was food that God gave His chosen people during their long and difficult journey. But it is even more for God’s people if we can only look at that pattern and examples. It took the children of Israel forty years to cross a wilderness that should of taken 9 days. But God had a much more awesome reasoning to allow this journey

Every day God’s chosen people had to gather fresh, new manna for if they tried to eat yesterdays manna it stunk. Today God wants us to gather flesh new manna daily, for if all you eat is the old; it stinks worn out bread of tradition; it is not the new wine but old. New wine is better then the old, etc.

Deut. 8:2

Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. 3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD. 4 Your clothes did not wear out and your feet did not swell during these forty years. 5 Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the LORD your God disciplines you.​

​

Manna means “what is it” or as Strong’s Concordance will point out it also includes what, how, when and why. You see the deeper you dig in to God’s Word you are never satisfied; but at the same time very satisfied. Manna has been known as many thing and a few examples would be “Bread of God”, “Corn from heaven”, “angel food”, and bread of the mighty. Just like the Word of God; our manna we eat today is spiritual or the Word of God; not the letter that killeth but the Word anointed by God‘s Spirit.



In the Tabernacle or Temple was the Shew Bread which was in the Holy Place; this bread was for all who entered in to receive it. But in the Ark of the Covenant was manna. This manna was hidden from the view of the Children of Israel and is an awesome example of the hidden manna mentioned in the verse above. But this manna had another characteristic about it; it did not perish like the manna in the wilderness.