How the Democratic Party opposes Christian Principles

[ONEGod]

#480
thaumaturgy
Veteran

Man, those bad people who went and caught themselves some Cancer or Diabetes, what were they thinking??? They were just having a good time getting cancer and diabetes.

So maybe you need to moderate your stance or you will be judged just as harshly should you fall upon hard times or get a bad disease not of your choosing.

I honestly don't understand Christians who can hold such repellant beliefs. Not just because they are repellent beliefs, but because they go directly against what God and Jesus command on this. There's often little positive stuff in the Old Testament, why deny the really good messages?

ONEGod:
Democrats don't believe social security OR socialized medicine are important issues enough to pass them. First off they wanted to pass illegal alien amnesty at a expected cost of 2-4 TRILLION DOLLARS. strange that after NOT passing that massive expenditure, they now posture we are in economic crisis and broke. How can one expect socialized medicine if we are broke ? Or needs be to take a brief break in the lying to promptly pass such expensive spending legislation and then go back to the economic chaos mongering ?​

 

[Nathan Poe]

All the verses of the Bible call for charity by a person, not charity by the government. A Christian is commanded to remember the poor, but the Christian is not commanded to participate in a government run program that offers assistance to those who have self inflicted misery. The best way to help the self inflicted problems is the change the heart of the person by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, then the assistance will be effective.

Then the Founding Fathers really screwed up with that First Amendment, didn't they?

 

[clirus]

thaumaturgy quote

I can understand why you sincerely don't want this to be the case, but God does appear to want his people to care for the poor. I understand you may not want to take care of the poor but you want to worship God. Unfortunately you would fail in one by doing the other.

But just keep hold of your money and fight every tax levy that comes up. And keep telling yourself that all poor people in the U.S. are poor because of bad things they did and that they deserve it!

That way you can wash your hands of any responsibility.

Response

The only responsibility I am ashamed of is my failure to not speak out sooner.

Even you have to use the word "appear" to justify government welfare and health care programs. Yes, God wants individuals to have concern for the poor, but God also wants Christians to adopt good and reject evil. A person cannot reject evil by condoning evil. Christians are to love the sinner, but not the sin. Too often the sinners are fed, but the sin is never discussed.

I am willing to spend money if it will do good instead of facilitating evil. Why spend money on Cure programs when the programs only increase needs instead of decrease needs?

No one deserves bad things. God gave the world the Bible that they might know good and evil, then adopt good and reject evil. The Christian Lifestyle is the best possible way to live life on this earth.

I believe that if people are presented an honest unbiased presentation of the Atheistic Lifestyle and the Christian Lifestyle, they would choose the Christian Lifestyle and the Atheistic Lifestyle would fade back into the closet.

 

[The Bellman]

I believe that if people are presented an honest unbiased presentation of the Atheistic Lifestyle and the Christian Lifestyle, they would choose the Christian Lifestyle and the Atheistic Lifestyle would fade back into the closet.

There is no 'atheistic lifestyle'.

 

[Fantine]

All the verses of the Bible call for charity by a person, not charity by the government. A Christian is commanded to remember the poor, but the Christian is not commanded to participate in a government run program that offers assistance to those who have self inflicted misery. The best way to help the self inflicted problems is the change the heart of the person by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, then the assistance will be effective.

The idea that all poverty and human misery is self-inflicted or due to defects of character is one of the most presumptuous misconceptions I have ever seen on this board.

And the idea that people with such presumptuous misconceptions would be capable of inspiring the poor to 'accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior' is preposterous.

 

[thaumaturgy]

The idea that all poverty and human misery is self-inflicted or due to defects of character is one of the most presumptuous misconceptions I have ever seen on this board.

Sadly it is often the only way a conservative Christian can coordinate their two diametrically opposed loves: The Word of God and Mammon.

It is not uncommon, and it is always hard to see.

 

[clirus]

Fantine quote

The idea that all poverty and human misery is self-inflicted or due to defects of character is one of the most presumptuous misconceptions I have ever seen on this board.

And the idea that people with such presumptuous misconceptions would be capable of inspiring the poor to 'accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior' is preposterous.

Response

I am very careful to never use the word "all" because I am very aware of Job.

However, you will have to admit that most of the human misery is self-inflicted.

People do not have to consume alcohol, drugs, etc.

Men and women do not have to commit adultery.

Homosexuals do not have to commit homosexual acts.

People do not have to steal.

People do not have to bear false witness against their neighbor.

People do not have to covet any thing that is their neighbor's

The first step for a changed heart is to admit that you are a sinner. Jesus can then work with a humble heart.

The first step for recovery in the AAA program is for an alcoholic to admit they are an alcoholic.

 

[dlamberth]

Fantine quote

The idea that all poverty and human misery is self-inflicted or due to defects of character is one of the most presumptuous misconceptions I have ever seen on this board.

And the idea that people with such presumptuous misconceptions would be capable of inspiring the poor to 'accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior' is preposterous.

Response

I am very careful to never use the word "all" because I am very aware of Job.

However, you will have to admit that most of the human misery is self-inflicted.

People do not have to consume alcohol, drugs, etc.

Men and women do not have to commit adultery.

Homosexuals do not have to commit homosexual acts.

People do not have to steal.

People do not have to bear false witness against their neighbor.

People do not have to covet any thing that is their neighbor's

The first step for a changed heart is to admit that you are a sinner. Jesus can then work with a humble heart.

The first step for recovery in the AAA program is for an alcoholic to admit they are an alcoholic.

You condemn the children, who are innocent of all of those things.

Also, Jesus never, ever gave any limits or placed any boundaries on helping the poor and those in need except one, that we can not know Him unless we are helping the poor and those in need. That help for the poor and those in need can come in many, many forms. Some of that help comes in the form of personal one on one help, some can come from government, some can come from Church or other organizations. It doesn’t matter how or where that help comes from..Jesus never gave us a limit on how to help the poor or those in need.

.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Response

I am very careful to never use the word "all" because I am very aware of Job.

However, you will have to admit that most of the human misery is self-inflicted.

People do not have to consume alcohol, drugs, etc.

Do you honestly believe most of human misery is self-inflicted? Do you have a job? Do you realize you could be laid off in a "work force reduction" at any time? Would it be your fault? Are only those people who get laid off the "bad people"? How long have you been of an age to hold a job?

Do you honestly believe only "bad" people get cancer? Do you honestly believe only "bad" children are born with horrendous birth defects?

Men and women do not have to commit adultery.

Agreed.

Homosexuals do not have to commit homosexual acts.

No more than you have to commit heterosexual acts.

Please drop this line of "reasoning". If you are gay you were probably born that way no matter how you fight it. If you are straight same thing. When did YOU choose your sexuality?

Answer THAT question honestly. Or drop that ignorant rhetoric.

The first step for recovery in the AAA program is for an alcoholic to admit they are an alcoholic.

And the first step to getting past one's massive level of ignorance is to admit that they don't know everything and that they might just might be wrong.

I highly recommend you look around the world with just a little more generosity to your fellow humans.

Remember, if you work for social justice it will be there for you when something bad happens to you. And bad things happen to everyone sooner or later.

 

[clirus]

thaumaturgy quote

Remember, if you work for social justice it will be there for you when something bad happens to you. And bad things happen to everyone sooner or later.

Response

When something bad happens, will people turn to God or to government?

My experience is that Christians turn to God and Atheists turn to government.

I believe that you reap what you sow, but I believe working for social justice without changing the heart of the person is evil.

The change of heart is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Response

When something bad happens, will people turn to God or to government?

So you are against social programs because you think people will turn to the Gov't before God???

Really? Is that why God said:

[BIBLE]Exodus 23:11[/BIBLE]

Were the poor people harvesting from the fields left by the landowners turning to the gov't before God?

Really, please, if you dislike humans so much that you would really rather see someone suffer until they believe in your version of God (which, obviously isn't the Judeo-Christian God) then what makes you think someone stronger and more powerful won't come along and impose Islamic law on everyone? And then if you find yourself hurt or unemployed you'll have to become a Muslim to eat!

Do you really have no depth to your considerations of others? Must everyone convert to your god upon pain of punishment?

My experience is that Christians turn to God and Atheists turn to government.

Yeah, I can see that. But all you need do is look to natural disasters to see how God handles that versus the government. Granted in Katrina the gov't didn't do such a bang-up job, but I don't see God down there rebuilding the Lower 9th Ward.

No, what you really appear to want is for peoples' suffering to force them to into your unique conception of worship.

Your version of God (clearly not supported by the Bible) wants worship at all costs, even pain and suffering.

I believe that you reap what you sow, but I believe working for social justice without changing the heart of the person is evil.

I actually agree with you on this one! Really! And you know what, I know that you are busy sowing social injustice and a vicious anti-social plan such that you will reap the whirlwind should that sad day happen when you find yourself on the bad end of the deal. When you find yourself laid off because a corporation was too greedy, through no fault of your own, and you are over the age of 50 and you can't get a new job and you can't afford the medical bills.

YOU will then reap this bitter harvest.

Sadly, by your actions, should you be successful in your attempts to gut social services, you will also punish a lot of innocent people with your sociopathology.

But you indeed will reap what you sow. As will we all.

The change of heart is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Again, reap what you sow. You wish to turn the U.S. into a theocracy. But you fail to remember that there are many versions of God and many paths. Maybe you will encourage our country to become a theocracy for the wrong god and you'll again wind up on the wrong end of the deal. Or better yet you will turn our country into a fractured Balkanized state with vicious sectarian battles. I shudder to think of what you wish to happen to the U.S.

I know you can't possibly imagine that anything you want isn't absolutely the best and most perfect thing to want, but as in the story of the "Monkey's Paw" you must be careful for what you wish.

You must be mindful that in enforcing your beliefs on all people means they can enforce theirs on you or, as in your fantasy scenario, you will suffer as you would consign them to suffer.

 

[thaumaturgy]

ONEGod:​

Democrats don't believe social security OR socialized medicine are important issues enough to pass them.

I agree. Dems are no more "pure" than Repubs. Both are beholden to too much money. Both are equally lusty for power over principles.

How can one expect socialized medicine if we are broke ?

Actually, as in all things governmental, it is really us who need to budget. Is healthcare important enough to us to divert $$$ from foreign interventions? I should hope so, but apparently I am wrong.

Currently the healthcare system in the U.S. is a mixed bag. We have excellent doctors and medical equipment, but limited access due to economic factors. The U.S. healthcare system ranks #37 in the world in terms of quality and access.

For every GM car you buy you pay an extra $1500 for healthcare, whereas for every Toyota made in Japan you pay only $97.

Here's a fun little graph of "Average Life Expectancy" vs Per Capita Health Expenditures I pulled together from OECD data a while back.

Notice anything interesting? How about the red dot? That's the U.S. We pay more than anyone and yet we aren't at the top of life expectancy. (Data from OECD)

So America needs to remember that we are supposedly the most "economically savvy" people around and we need to fight for Universal Healthcare. Not just because it will help us all in the long run, but because it's the economically rational thing to do. It's our money and our health. We don't seem to be doing a very good job of it as is.
​

 

[KomissarSteve]

thaumaturgy quote

Remember, if you work for social justice it will be there for you when something bad happens to you. And bad things happen to everyone sooner or later.

Response

When something bad happens, will people turn to God or to government?

My experience is that Christians turn to God and Atheists turn to government.

I believe that you reap what you sow, but I believe working for social justice without changing the heart of the person is evil.

The change of heart is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Evidently you haven't heard the story about the man of God and the flood:

http://www.marshbunny.com/mbunny/sidetrip/fables/index.html (second one from the top)

It seems to me like you're putting God in a box by expecting Him to cure peoples' diseases supernaturally.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Evidently you haven't heard the story about the man of God and the flood:

http://www.marshbunny.com/mbunny/sidetrip/fables/index.html (second one from the top)

It seems to me like you're putting God in a box by expecting Him to cure peoples' diseases supernaturally.

To extrapolate to Clirus' point, indeed the family in the Flood story did get to meet God. So I suppose it's all good anyway. The government would have kept these people from experiencing God's glory for a little while longer.

 

[dlamberth]

I believe that you reap what you sow, but I believe working for social justice without changing the heart of the person is evil.

So all of the work for racial justice in America, which was born out of the Christian Church, was that evil? Or the work Christians did to end slavery, was that evil? Or the work Christians did for women's suffrage? Was that evil? Or the child labor laws? Was that evil as well?

.

 

[mpok1519]

Clirus>> you can't change the heart of someone.

Only someone can change THEIR OWN HEART.

No one else can do that for someone but theirself. Its not the job of the govt to turn everyone into wholesome moral people, only the individual self can do that.

If the govt tried to change peoples' hearts, the govt wouldn't be a democratic republic anymore, as only tyrannies, dictatorships, and fascist states force people to change.

 

[KomissarSteve]

Clirus>> you can't change the heart of someone.

Only someone can change THEIR OWN HEART.

Indeed - and, as St. Francis pointed out, the best (and frankly, the only consistently effective) way of bringing a person to a point in which they can choose to change their heart is to lead by example.

 

[mpok1519]

One cannot strap someone to a chair, and flog them until they comply; perhaps in the earlies days of humanity we did that, but soon after we figured out that the whole forcing someone to change will never work, but infact, instills fear and anxiety towards those who're forced to follow others' beliefs.

We do evolve as humans, and society also evolves; many of the laws in the OT are considered barbaric and savage by today's standards, yet there are many who advocate the forcing of those beliefs upon others.

Many of us are still in the 'ape-stage' of evolution I suppose.

 

[Ceris]

Many of us are still in the 'ape-stage' of evolution I suppose.

So true, so true. "Debating on the internet is like running in the Special Olymipcs, even if you win" (you know the rest).

 

[clirus]

mpok1519 quote

One cannot strap someone to a chair, and flog them until they comply; perhaps in the earlies days of humanity we did that, but soon after we figured out that the whole forcing someone to change will never work, but infact, instills fear and anxiety towards those who're forced to follow others' beliefs.

We do evolve as humans, and society also evolves; many of the laws in the OT are considered barbaric and savage by today's standards, yet there are many who advocate the forcing of those beliefs upon others.

Many of us are still in the 'ape-stage' of evolution I suppose.

Response

Atheists are pessimists and Christians are optimists. Atheists advocate that sin exists so there is no alternative but to participate even if the result is disease, death and destruction. As a Christian I find that concept very pessimistic. When one accepts Jesus Christ, God provides the Holy Spirit to assist the person to resist the temptation. The fellowship of other Christians provides a new way of living. I believe change can be made in peoples lives. I believe God allowed his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross in order that change from a Atheistic Lifestyle to a Christian Lifestyle is possible.

Atheists always imply that Christians are forcing Atheists but I believe the exact opposite is true. Christians plead, beg, ask, etc. , but the government forces. The government is the god of the Atheists that the Atheists hope will tell the Christians to shut up. When a church asks for money you have a choice as to your contribution, but when the government asks for taxes, you do not have a choice.

I believe the Bible teaches all things should be dealt with by the following three levels of action;
1) If it is good - accept it and nourish it.
2) If it is evil - reject it but tolerate it.
3) If it threatens your existence - destroy it before it destroys you. This is self defense, which both the individual and society have a right and responsibility to do.

The first two are from the New Testament of the Bible and represent the Law of Love. The third is from the Old Testament of the Bible and represents the Law of Purity/Self Defense. The New Testament deals more with personal responsibility and the Old Testament deals more with the preservation of society. The Old Testament and the New Testament together present God's Law, a means of survival for a person, a nation and a world.

The process used in America to insure that the correct people are executed (the decision to go from tolerance to destruction) is the jury process and the authorization of war by congress. No process is ever perfect, but the choice is society/civilization or an imperfect jury/congressional process.

Christians should warn people (be salt and light), Civil Law should control, restrict, destroy, force, etc. people. Christians should advocate that which is good and healthy for society as described in the Bible. Civil Law should control, restrict, destroy, force, etc. that which is harmful (disease, death and destruction) to society. Congress (as the representatives of the people) defines Civil Law. If the laws that Congress defines are consistent with the Christian Lifestyle (God's Law), the people who practice evil will suffer. If the laws that Congress defines are consistent with the Atheistic Lifestyle, everyone will suffer. Civil Law consistent with the Atheistic Lifestyle cause suffering for everyone because the Christens suffer under the law, and the Atheists suffer because of the sin they practice. Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

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A government cannot create an ethical society by imposing ethics, however an ethical society can
be created when God imposes ethics on people and the people vote for ethical government leaders. A government can create an unethical/Atheistic society by opposing Christian ethics.

When Civil Law is consistent with God's Law, the people will be prosperous. When Civil Law is inconsistent with God's Law the people will suffer.

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I believe that if people are presented an honest unbiased presentation of the Atheistic Lifestyle and the Christian Lifestyle, they would choose the Christian Lifestyle and the Atheistic Lifestyle would fade back into the closet.

The problem is that the news and entertainment industry of America is controlled by Atheists, thus there is no unbiased presentation. What is occurring is the Cultural War between Christians and Atheists. The Atheistic Liberal News and Entertainment Industry is doing everything they can to win the Cultural War for the Atheists.

Maybe my efforts will be useless, but I feel compelled to present a different perspective on the issues facing America so that at least a few can make a decision based on both sides of the story.