How the Democratic Party opposes Christian Principles

[KomissarSteve]

"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."--Carl Sagan

While we obviously remain in agreement over the argument at hand, I'd like to take this opportunity to underline the fact that Christianity, practiced with a proper and open state of mind, incorporates the mindset that Sagan describes here. Those of us who truly are humble before God realize only too well that humanity, far from being the focal point of the universe, is less than a speck of dust among the vastness of the Cosmos - and that's what makes God's love for each and every individual all the more poignant, and truly miraculous.

That's what I believe, anyway - and I certainly believe that Carl Sagan was, to one extent or another, a theist himself, so who knows. Maybe he would have agreed with me.

 

[GettinInTune]

Even though I cannot prove God exists, If God does exist, God will judge all people whether they believe He exists or not.

I fear not the universe nor humans, because I know the maker of the universe and all other things.

I find the thought of our Earth being the center stage in a cosmic play between good and evil is both egotistical and childish. The thought that God is a personal God who is intervenes and keeps spritiual report cards on every individual is asisine.

What I fear is people like Carl Sagan that lead people away from God by implying they/science have the answers instead of God. Wonder where Carl is now?

If you are implying the Carl Sagan is enduring an eternity in Hell is disturbing and unwarranted.

Not only did Sagan increase our knowledge on the workings of the cosmos, he is also credited to opposing both restraints on science and reactionary applications of science, defending democratic traditions, resisting nationalism, defending humanism, and arguing against geocentric and anthropocentric views.

 

[GettinInTune]

While we obviously remain in agreement over the argument at hand, I'd like to take this opportunity to underline the fact that Christianity, practiced with a proper and open state of mind, incorporates the mindset that Sagan describes here. Those of us who truly are humble before God realize only too well that humanity, far from being the focal point of the universe, is less than a speck of dust among the vastness of the Cosmos - and that's what makes God's love for each and every individual all the more poignant, and truly miraculous.

That's what I believe, anyway - and I certainly believe that Carl Sagan was, to one extent or another, a theist himself, so who knows. Maybe he would have agreed with me.

While Sagan's view may parallel to your understanding of Christianity, it is inappropriate to label hime as a theist.

[FONT=&quot]"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard, who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by 'God,' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravityhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity."--C. Sagan[/FONT]

 

[JoshuaW]

God's works are explained to mortals through science. There is no conflict.

 

[mpok1519]

please do not turn christianity into a political party.

Thats wrong.

 

[KomissarSteve]

While Sagan's view may parallel to your understanding of Christianity, it is inappropriate to label hime as a theist.

[FONT=&quot]"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard, who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by 'God,' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."--C. Sagan[/FONT]

But as you can see from that quote, no matter how impersonal his view of God was, it was still a view of God, was it not?

 

[Ceris]

please do not turn christianity into a political party.

Thats wrong.

Disappointment Bunny agrees and frowns on such shenanigans.

 

[KomissarSteve]

Disappointment Bunny agrees and frowns on such shenanigans.

I swear, I'll break out Serious Cat if you make me.

 

[Ceris]

At least I didn't bust out a lol-catz. Those are really annoying.

 

[GettinInTune]

But as you can see from that quote, no matter how impersonal his view of God was, it was still a view of God, was it not?

Sagan is not a theist. Stop with your nonsense. Define the definition of this so-called God that you claim Sagan believed in.

He did not want to believe, but he wanted to know. He took an agnostic stance with respect to knowledge, but he was a materialist and humanist. If you want to consider Sagan an pantheist, then I can support your opinion. Pantheism is can hardly be considered theism.

 

[KomissarSteve]

Sagan is not a theist. Stop with your nonsense. Define the definition of this so-called God that you claim Sagan believed in.

Sagan's quote says it all: "[FONT=&quot]But if by 'God,' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God." It's an impersonal God, but it's a view of God nonetheless.

Why do you take such umbrage to my point of view?
[/FONT]

He did not want to believe, but he wanted to know. He took an agnostic stance with respect to knowledge, but he was a materialist and humanist. If you want to consider Sagan an pantheist, then I can support your opinion. Pantheism is can hardly be considered theism.

Sure it can be. Theism = belief in God or gods, in any given form.

 

[clirus]

GettinInTune quote

I find the thought of our Earth being the center stage in a cosmic play between good and evil is both egotistical and childish. The thought that God is a personal God who is intervenes and keeps spritiual report cards on every individual is asisine.

Response

The first words of the Lords Prayer Matthew 6:9 are, "Our father which art in heaven......

God is like your father, if your father was a Christian.

God wants good for humans, but wants them to accept him from their own free will instead of being slaves. God shows his love by providing the Bible as a Basic Instruction Book for Living Everyday. You are trying to make Christianity into something complex, yet the simple truth is that God is defining good and evil so that the disease, death and destruction of evil can be avoided.

My earthly father taught me that some things were good and some things were evil. One could consider that as egotistical and childish, but I later realized that my father did what he did because he loved me. As a father, I learned a lot about God.

I believe most young men go through a period where they think they are the master of the universe, but as they deal with the world, they begin to realize there are things that they cannot control. Why do people cheat, lie, abuse, etc.? The only answer I ever found was in the Bible where it states the base nature of humans is evil. Then I understood the humans around me and myself. Then I knew I needed Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Since then I have learned that God is both a God of love and a God of righteousness. A good father will also be both loving and righteous. The best instruction book for being a father is the Bible.

The best instruction book for being a mother is the Bible.

The best instruction book for being a human is the Bible.

 

[Nathan Poe]

God wants good for humans, but wants them to accept him from their own free will instead of being slaves. God shows his love by providing the Bible as a Basic Instruction Book for Living Everyday. You are trying to make Christianity into something complex, yet the simple truth is that God is defining good and evil so that the disease, death and destruction of evil can be avoided.

So, why not be a helpful chap and summarize God's definition of "Good" and "Evil"?

make sure you're consistent, now...

My earthly father taught me that some things were good and some things were evil. One could consider that as egotistical and childish, but I later realized that my father did what he did because he loved me. As a father, I learned a lot about God.

I'd wager that your fater did a better, more relevent, and more comprehensive job than the Bible did.

I believe most young men go through a period where they think they are the master of the universe, but as they deal with the world, they begin to realize there are things that they cannot control. Why do people cheat, lie, abuse, etc.? The only answer I ever found was in the Bible where it states the base nature of humans is evil.

That's the best answer you could find?

 

[Nathan Poe]

I wish I knew how to prove to you that God exists.

I believe that any examination of world events proves that the base nature of man is sinful/evil.

What is "sinful"?

I believe the existence of Israel as a nation is strong evidence of the existence of God. God promised Israel would survive, and Israel has survived even though the Germans and the Arabs/Muslims have tried to eliminate them from the face of the earth. Neither the intelligence of the Germans nor the wealth of the Arabs/Muslims have been capable of eliminating the Jews. Jews did not even exist as a nation for a long time, but now they have been a nation since WW II.

Thanks to the US.

Even though I cannot prove God exists, If God does exist, God will judge all people whether they believe He exists or not.

And if He doesn't exist, well then... there's no need to jump through hoops for the sole purpose of appeasing Him.

I fear not the universe nor humans, because I know the maker of the universe and all other things.

If only you could be sure.

What I fear is people like Carl Sagan that lead people away from God by implying they/science have the answers instead of God.

You don't fear humans, but you fear Carl Sagan?

Wonder where Carl is now?

Lakeview Cemetery, Ithaca, NY.

 

[GettinInTune]

Sagan's quote says it all: "[FONT=&quot]But if by 'God,' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God." It's an impersonal God, but it's a view of God nonetheless

.

If you equate the laws of the universe to God, then all you are doing is getting around the problems associated with theological noncognitivism.

Calling the force the combination of forces such as anitgravity, gravity, weak force, strong force, the electrical forces, the ratio of the two fundamental energies, the amount of matter in the universe can hardly be considered God. Just by calling something God does not make it so and does not make you a theist.

Why do you take such umbrage to my point of view?

I am not taking umbrage to your POV. It takes a lot to offend me. You are mis-appropriately using words. It is parallel to me calling you an atheist, since you do not believe in the gods of ancient mythology.
[/FONT]

Sure it can be. Theism = belief in God or gods, in any given form.

No, that is not theism. Deism, pantheism, panendeism, pandeism, panentheism can hardly be considered theism. Just because I believe in the set of the physical laws of the universe, you cannot call me a theist. One of the key features of God is that he exists in the supernatural world.

Theism is a belief in a deity that transcend the material world, who is omnipotent, omnipresent, that intervenes in the lives of man, subscribes to holy books, believes in miracles, prophets, and religious mysteries, and other divine revelations.

 

[KomissarSteve]

.If you equate the laws of the universe to God, then all you are doing is getting around the problems associated with theological noncognitivism.

Nonsense; what Sagan describes is very similar to what the Deists of Locke's day believed.

 

[mpok1519]

religion isnt the problem.

people are.

beliefs and ideas cannot do any harm.

what people who with those beliefs/ideas can cause harm.

 

[GettinInTune]

Nonsense; what Sagan describes is very similar to what the Deists of Locke's day believed.

There seems to be some confusion here. Just because you believe in the set of physical laws does not make you a theist. If you believe that a supernatural force was responsible for the creation of the physical laws, responsible for creating matter, and believe in the first cause, you most likely subcribe to a various form of deism. Then if you take it steps further giving god various attributes and divinity and think that this god is a personal God, then you are a theist.

Locke had great influence on diesm during his day, but one can hardly consider him a deist. He was a Christian. He subsribed to various miracles and supernaturalism. In 1695, Locke wrote his book On The Resonableness of Christianity, which was an opposition to deism.

 

[KomissarSteve]

There seems to be some confusion here. Just because you believe in the set of physical laws does not make you a theist.

No, but Sagan's quote certainly implies that there is more than just a set of physical laws at work in designing the universe - that there is, at the very least, a conscious trend towards order in the natural laws of the Cosmos.

 

[GettinInTune]

No, but Sagan's quote certainly implies that there is more than just a set of physical laws at work in designing the universe - that there is, at the very least, a conscious trend towards order in the natural laws of the Cosmos.

[FONT=&quot]But if by 'God,' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."--C. Sagan[/FONT]

I am not sure how you are interpreting:
1. That there are more than just a set of physical laws at work in the universe.
2. That there is a conscious trend towards order in the natural laws of the Cosmos.