Obama in Violation of the First Amendment

[KarateCowboy]

When the Republicans started doing it too...

At least he's stepping into a church, right?

 

[Nathan Poe]

That's my whole point.

Why is it that you Democrats have spent so much time screaming and yelling about the Christian Coalition, Moral Majority, etc. - as if it's only the Republicans that are using churches to buy votes from Christians?

Both parties have been doing it for decades. Why is it that we only hear the Democrats complaining?

So, you're saying that the Christian Coalition and Moral Majority are Republican Political groups, and not religious organizations?

 

[KomissarSteve]

At least he's stepping into a church, right?

You make it seem like that's an unusual event.

 

[KarateCowboy]

You make it seem like that's an unusual event.

I'm being optimistic.

 

[KomissarSteve]

I'm being optimistic.

Considering his long, positive, committed relationship with Christianity and the deep faith that he frequently expresses, I don't think that "optimism" is the word for what you describe; I think that's more "realism." Or perhaps "mundanity."

 

[Voegelin]

Because Republican candidates have, in recent history, had their voting numbers buoyed by those only interested in voting for the candidate who most closely fit their extremely narrow brand of Christianity. Democrats don't do that. That's a purely right-wing phenomenon.

Kerry couldn't get a majority of either the Catholic or Protestant vote. Some "extremely narrow band of Christianity" the GOP has there. This is why Obama and other Democrats are talking up religion. The party has to do better with those who attend church on a regular basis.

 

[craigerNY]

Which came first the Left criticizing the Right for courting Christians or the Right criticizing the Left for courting Christians? If I can prove it was the chicken that came first and not the egg I'll be the king of this thread..............

 

[KomissarSteve]

Kerry couldn't get a majority of either the Catholic or Protestant vote.

That's not what I meant by a narrow brand of Christianity; as well you know, the Christian Right transcends Protestant and Catholic lines. Nor, of course, am I arguing that all Christians who voted for Bush fall under the category of the "Christian Right"; what I am arguing, however, is that a significant number of his voters do fall in with that group, and that such a phenomenon only occurs with the Right, as far as American politics are concerned.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

So, you're saying that the Christian Coalition and Moral Majority are Republican Political groups, and not religious organizations?

No.

Now perhaps you'd like to stop playing your cutesy little game of baiting and sniping.

I'm saying that you Democrats don't have any problems with Democrats campaigning in churches, but you scream bloody murder when a Republican does.

Is that clear enough?

 

[Nathan Poe]

No.

Now perhaps you'd like to stop playing your cutesy little game of baiting and sniping.

I'm saying that you Democrats don't have any problems with Democrats campaigning in churches, but you scream bloody murder when a Republican does.

Is that clear enough?

Crystal clear. Now, Can you give an example of the Democrats "screaming bloody murder" when a republican campaigns in a church?

 

[ParsonJefferson]

At least he's stepping into a church, right?

Well... I'm assuming that, because he's a member of a United Church of Christ, Barak Obama steps into a church regularly. But that, of course, is quite different from campaigning in churches.

I'm also surprised at the blatant hypocrisy displayed here, by our resident Democrats. It's not okay for Republican candidates to campaign in churches, but it is okay for Democrats to do so. Seems rather contradictory!

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Crystal clear. Now, Can you give an example of the Democrats "screaming bloody murder" when a republican campaigns in a church?

Have you read a newspaper these past 10 years?

If the answer is "Yes", you have your answer. If your answer is "No", then you won't believe it anyway.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Have you read a newspaper these past 10 years?

If the answer is "Yes", you have your answer. If your answer is "No", then you won't believe it anyway.

So, no examples, then? Oh well.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I'm finished talking with you.

All you can do is be a caustic smart alec, when you know darned good & well that what I'm saying is absolutely true.

Grow up.

Hmmm... still no examples -- and low odds of any in the future.

 

[The Bellman]

Have you read a newspaper these past 10 years?

If the answer is "Yes", you have your answer. If your answer is "No", then you won't believe it anyway.

I haven't read an (American) newspaper in the last 10 years, living in Australia as I do. So could you give me some examples, since I can't reasonably be expected to have seen them in the newspapers?

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Hmmm... still no examples -- and low odds of any in the future.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3944/is_200612/ai_n17193071
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...29/irs_scrutinizing_charities_political_work/
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/01/turning_a_blind.html
http://www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/Dec98/121098d.htm
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/12551.html
http://www.amazon.com/How-Republicans-Stole-Religion-Religious/dp/0385516045
http://www.theocracywatch.org/


It's a veritable weep-fest. This is just a small sampling.

Now... would you like to do what a real man would do, and apologize? Or would you like to continue on your same path?

 

[The Bellman]

Okay, let's see about ParsonJefferson's examples to support his claim that "...you Democrats don't have any problems with Democrats campaigning in churches, but you scream bloody murder when a Republican does."

First one:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3944/is_200612/ai_n17193071
D'oh!. That's an article about tax exemption and the IRS - churches which engage in campaigning, and complaints about them. It cites 7 specific incidents, 2 involving pro-Democrat activity, and 5 pro-Republican activity. Hardly evidence to support the claim.

Next one:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...29/irs_scrutinizing_charities_political_work/
Another d'oh. This one's about the IRS stepping up action over concerns about churches violating laws about campaigning (interesting to note that in the article, the former head of the IRS' Tax Exemption branch voices concerns about the IRS' actions, believing they are specifically targetting groups that help Democrats, rather than Republicans). No help for the claim here, either.

Next one:
http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/01/turning_a_blind.html
Another failure. This one is criticising the IRS for not taking strong enough action against churches which act politically. It cites 4 cases currently under IRS investigation, 2 each involving pro-Democrat and pro-Republican action.

Next one:
http://www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/Dec98/121098d.htm
An article about Americans United for Separation of Church and State complaining to the IRS about 8 churches for distributing voter guides before an election. Note that the voter guides were distributed in association with Republican candidates speaking at the churches, but the complaints to the IRS were about the voter guide distribution, not the speaking of candidates. Strike four.

Next:
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/12551.html
Another dud. This one is, again, about investigation into candidate endorsement by a church. Not a word about any politician speaking anywhere.

Next:
http://www.amazon.com/How-Republicans-Stole-Religion-Religious/dp/0385516045
This one is a plug for a book by a pro-Democrat pundit. From the Amazon page I can't see any reference to problems with any politicians speaking at churches.

Last:
http://www.theocracywatch.org/
This is the website of an organisation opposed to any government influence in religion. I can't see anything on the home page about politicians speaking in churches.

It's a veritable weep-fest. This is just a small sampling.

"Weep-fest"? Hardly. Not one citation actually supports your claim.

Now... would you like to do what a real man would do, and apologize? Or would you like to continue on your same path?

Perhaps you should spend less time throwing around insults and more on actually finding something to support your claims.

 

[Nathan Poe]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3944/is_200612/ai_n17193071

An article about illegal electioneering. It's a weep-fest to complain about a law being broken? I shall remember that.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...29/irs_scrutinizing_charities_political_work/

Last I checked, the IRS is not "you Democrats."

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/01/turning_a_blind.html

A blog complaining that the IRS is not doing its job.

http://www.commondreams.org/pressreleases/Dec98/121098d.htm

A watchdog group -- the very same one mentioned in the first link, reporting a church for excessive political involvement with the Christian Coalition -- a well known political action group, although not necessarily a Republican one -- we went over that earlier, I think.

That would be a violation of the 1954 law brought up in link #3. Is complaining about illegal actions still considered a "weep-fest"?

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/12551.html

Hmm... a member of that very same political action group (No mention of it being a Democrat one) noting that not only is a Church officially endorsing a political candidate, but calling for imprecatory prayer from its members against the organization.

"Imprecatory prayer, " btw, is the term for "God, please smite our enemies!" (or in this case, the enemies of the endorsed candidate).

http://www.amazon.com/How-Republicans-Stole-Religion-Religious/dp/0385516045

An interesting book, but hardly a weep-fest about Republicans campaigning in churches -- more like a thesis on the twisting of religious ideals for political ends.

Judge for yourself: http://www.billpress.com/books/htrsr_main.html

I may have to pick up a copy -- thank you for the recommendation!

http://www.theocracywatch.org/

Interesting site. Gotta love their opening quote:

"This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy."
U.S. Representative Christopher Shays, R-CT, (New York Times 3/23/05)

(That "R" by the way, stands for Republican.)

It's a veritable weep-fest. This is just a small sampling.

Small and unimpressive when one actually reads the links.

Now... would you like to do what a real man would do, and apologize? Or would you like to continue on your same path?

Well, while every site you've mentioned does raise legitimate concerns about comingling religion with politics, and few of them are Democrat in affiliation, meaning I don't see the "Democrats screaming bloody murder" I was promised.

Nevertheless, I do owe you an apology for underestimating your tenacity -- I honestly didn't expect you to come back at all.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Well... I'm assuming that, because he's a member of a United Church of Christ, Barak Obama steps into a church regularly. But that, of course, is quite different from campaigning in churches.

I'm also surprised at the blatant hypocrisy displayed here, by our resident Democrats. It's not okay for Republican candidates to campaign in churches, but it is okay for Democrats to do so. Seems rather contradictory!

This really is a promethean struggle, I think.

 

[Nathan Poe]

D'oh! Bellman, you're too fast!