No stones to cast?

[Nadiine]

Oh, no I wasn't saying that you need not have posted because I said the same thing. I was just saying, "I agree - here, have a cookie!".

Digit

SNAX???
MMMMMMMMM
(grabs cookie violently and runs)

 

[climb8b]

In science, the burden of proof lies with those who doubt.
ie. -A hypothesis is held to be true until disproved.
So - can you disprove the existance of God?

How very, very wrong.

In science the burden of proof lies with those making a positive statement. so if i state that there is a force called "custard" that affect the mind during sleep i would need to assert proof of this, it is not the scientists remit to disprove "custard". if this were the case scientists would need to spend the majority of their time debunking everybodys fancifull ideas.

You also need to find out the difference between the scientific use of the words hypothesis and theory before you post again.

 

[climb8b]

I agree with this, in fact scripture agrees with it too. In John Jesus says that the people were without sin until He came and revealed Himself to them (or something along those lines). This is also a possible revelation as to what happens to those who do not know God during their lives.

However both of these things are to do with beliefs, as opposed to what is actually real. That we will only find out when we pass away, and it is then that we pray we have made the right decisions in our lives.

Of cource scripture agrees with the definition, the definition relys on the existance of god. if you look up wrong or lie in the dictionary there is no link to sin though these things are categorised by christianity as a sin.

I posit that there is no sin as there is no god, that for me is reality and not something i belive.

 

[climb8b]

As I view it, it all depends on what is TRUE, not what we THINK is true.

The majority of the known world believed that the earth was flat. What they believed didn't make the earth flat.

If God is true and He deems what sin is, then despite what people disbelieve, it doesn't change that fact. It isn't sin to Christians, and NOT sin to nonchristians depending on what they believe; it either is or isn't sin to all people.

I'd also add that you have SEEN persuasive proof of God, but that you simply reject it all for your own personal reasons.
To say none exists means that all other majorities of population are mindless idiots when absolutely ZERO evidences exist.
The minority are Atheists, most people believe a God exists in some form or another.

The majority of the known world knew that the earth was flat. What they knew didn't make the earth flat.

What you know and what you believe, are they not the same thing? and whatever they are, they are not necesserly true.

I am wondering what you take as persuasive truth of god? have i witnessed miracles without realising, or are you going to trot out the old (easily debunked) creation and evolution card, YAWN. or do you really have some evidence that could truly prove you god?

 

[climb8b]

the definition given says "divine *or* moral law."

so by that definition sin does not require the divine.

And...in your astute opinion who set the moral law???

Oh yeh...it was your genocidal, violent, oppresive god???

Or was it???

 

[climb8b]

There is a universal truth. As to the exact nature of it, everyone has their beliefs, what they think are true. Science is the search (pertaining to some aspects) of this truth. This truth could be the true M-theory, or it could be something far greater than the M-theory.

............

Now, granted that example rested on a chance < (1/2)^250, but then again, most statistic test are done on samples <1% of the total population, instead of 12.5% of the population as this test was.

What, i mean what does this have to do with the OP???

 

[Digit]

Of cource scripture agrees with the definition, the definition relys on the existance of god. if you look up wrong or lie in the dictionary there is no link to sin though these things are categorised by christianity as a sin.

If you look up tree in the dictionary there is no link to oak, fern, pine or a any of the species of trees.

Why would you expect lie to link to sin, when it is a type of sin, just like oak is a type of tree?

I posit that there is no sin as there is no god, that for me is reality and not something i belive.

No that's not true. It's the reality that you believe in. Just like nomadic tribes don't believe it possible to communicate over vast distances like we can, drive and fly over the Earth and any number of modern inventions. In fact some, even after seeing them, still don't believe they work. Their reality, is what they believe. It doesn't mean it actually IS the reality.

Once again I ask is there a question you had in mind or are you just making a statement? I find it odd that someone says, "I believe there is no sin because there is no God." and then leaves it at that... It's like me posting on an Atheist board that, "I believe there is a God." and then leaving it. My replies would vary but the general gist would be, "So?".

Digit

 

[Nadiine]

And...in your astute opinion who set the moral law???

Oh yeh...it was your genocidal, violent, oppresive god???

Or was it???

I just LOVE how people who embrace sin and all kinds of garbage, judge GOD for His actions as if they're the epitomy of what's good and right!


Instead of people LEARNING from the past history and seeing why God judged when He did, they ignore all the parameters to elevate themselves as the morally pure; as if God is under their judgment.

People who enjoy & support sin can't and won't understand a righteous God who cannot tolerate it nor will they understand who they are in comparison.
Of course if you condone premarital sex, God becomes an OGER for judging anyone for it!

The problem isn't GOD, THE PROBLEM IS YOU and your refusal to accept His moral laws.

 

[climb8b]

I just LOVE how people who embrace sin and all kinds of garbage, judge GOD for His actions as if they're the epitomy of what's good and right!


Instead of people LEARNING from the past history and seeing why God judged when He did, they ignore all the parameters to elevate themselves as the morally pure; as if God is under their judgment.

People who enjoy & support sin can't and won't understand a righteous God who cannot tolerate it nor will they understand who they are in comparison.
Of course if you condone premarital sex, God becomes an OGER for judging anyone for it!

The problem isn't GOD, THE PROBLEM IS YOU and your refusal to accept His moral laws.

Yeh, i love the "morality" of your god, it is so questionable in all its parameters. Your god even had the audacity to change the questionable morality of the OT and replace it with the somewhat less questionable morality of the NT.

You need to read, that is read more than just you bible, you need to arm yourself with greater knowledge instead of just spouting you biblical retoric with no authority. I suggest something like "the science of good and evil" by Michael Shermer or "breaking the spell" by Daniel Dennet or any book on the evolutionary processes behind belief in the supernatural and gods.

I have read the bible through in its entirity (at least) twice when i was a christian, once when i was not a christian and selected passages since. i have read books that apparently debunk Richard Dawkins, i have read Francis Collins, and Alistair McGrath. along with books by Dennet, Shermer, Dawkins, Blackmore, Woolpert, Hitchens, Greyling...

Have you ever read anything from the other side of the fence? you will proably find that atheist at least avail themselves of both side of the argument.

Also at no point in the bible does it forbid pre-marital sex, that is just an interpretation that you choose to believe, while it is a virtue to hold you virginity for that special occasion it is not wrong to lose it before marriage.

Dare you to read more widely!!!

Christians cherry pick bible verces, they cherry pick their interpretations, and then they cherry pick when to cherry pick, as my friend Vynn quite rightly points out.

 

[Digit]

You need to read, that is read more than just you bible, you need to arm yourself with greater knowledge instead of just spouting you biblical retoric with no authority.

To what end?

That is, why? You seem to believe I am unhappy with my current knowledge, and in fact in a way you are right, I wish I knew more about the Bible that's for sure. I've read a fair amount of books where people convince themselves there is no God and pat themselves on the back saying, "Don't worry, you will be ok." and so on. Dawkins is right in some aspects, in that Christianity today sometimes doesn't have Biblical backup, but that has nothing to do with God, that's our fault.

I suggest something like "the science of good and evil" by Michael Shermer or "breaking the spell" by Daniel Dennet or any book on the evolutionary processes behind belief in the supernatural and gods.

I suggest The Wheel of Time, by Robert Jordan. Honestly, for every person on the forum like me who just isn't interested in the other side of the fence as I am perfectly happy on my side, there are probably an equal number of Christians who have read everything under the sun. You cannot make a blanket statement about all Christians saying we ALL need to read more. As many do, and many don't. I am one that doesn't, firstly because I actually don't know much about the Bible and secondly because I have little time, and I would rather invest that towards God.

I have read the bible through in its entirity (at least) twice when i was a christian, once when i was not a christian and selected passages since. i have read books that apparently debunk Richard Dawkins, i have read Francis Collins, and Alistair McGrath. along with books by Dennet, Shermer, Dawkins, Blackmore, Woolpert, Hitchens, Greyling...

Something I learned from debating, was that as soon as you have to declare why you are such an authority on something, you have pretty much lost the debate.

Have you ever read anything from the other side of the fence? you will proably find that atheist at least avail themselves of both side of the argument.

Hahahahahaha...

Also at no point in the bible does it forbid pre-marital sex, that is just an interpretation that you choose to believe, while it is a virtue to hold you virginity for that special occasion it is not wrong to lose it before marriage.

We all interpret things in life, that is how we come to understanding.There is enough evidence in the Bible for me to believe that pre-marital sex is not what God intended, and in addition in my own life I have felt seriously convicted over it and my girlfriend and I put our lives right in God's eyes, and married. Afterall, if you truly love the person, why not commit to them? And if you have committed to them, then marry them.

Dare you to read more widely!!!

I dare you to show at least a partial understanding of what you post about.

Christians cherry pick bible verces, they cherry pick their interpretations, and then they cherry pick when to cherry pick, as my friend Vynn quite rightly points out.

You seem to have made the same mistake as nearly anyone who has read the Bible. You simply read it. You don't understand it, and you haven't studied it to any degree. To you the words ring hollow and are point blank and often don't make sense. Your conscience is seared against His Word.

You still believe your reality is the correct one. Yet you obviously don't believe it very strongly as here you are on a Christian forum. To be honest, when I was a non-Christian, you wouldn't catch me dead anywhere near a forum like this, I was actually very certain in my beliefs, enough not to feel compelled to seek out debates with those that hold opposing beliefs.

So, either this is just entertainment for you, in which case you really need to get an Xbox or something, or something in your life just isn't adding up. I don't expect you to admit to this now, but I'll bet my last dollar that you will think about it in the future. )

Cheers!
Digit

 

[Nadiine]

To what end?

That is, why? You seem to believe I am unhappy with my current knowledge, and in fact in a way you are right, I wish I knew more about the Bible that's for sure. I've read a fair amount of books where people convince themselves there is no God and pat themselves on the back saying, "Don't worry, you will be ok." and so on. Dawkins is right in some aspects, in that Christianity today sometimes doesn't have Biblical backup, but that has nothing to do with God, that's our fault.


I suggest The Wheel of Time, by Robert Jordan. Honestly, for every person on the forum like me who just isn't interested in the other side of the fence as I am perfectly happy on my side, there are probably an equal number of Christians who have read everything under the sun. You cannot make a blanket statement about all Christians saying we ALL need to read more. As many do, and many don't. I am one that doesn't, firstly because I actually don't know much about the Bible and secondly because I have little time, and I would rather invest that towards God.


Something I learned from debating, was that as soon as you have to declare why you are such an authority on something, you have pretty much lost the debate.


Hahahahahaha...


We all interpret things in life, that is how we come to understanding.There is enough evidence in the Bible for me to believe that pre-marital sex is not what God intended, and in addition in my own life I have felt seriously convicted over it and my girlfriend and I put our lives right in God's eyes, and married. Afterall, if you truly love the person, why not commit to them? And if you have committed to them, then marry them.


I dare you to show at least a partial understanding of what you post about.


You seem to have made the same mistake as nearly anyone who has read the Bible. You simply read it. You don't understand it, and you haven't studied it to any degree. To you the words ring hollow and are point blank and often don't make sense. Your conscience is seared against His Word.

You still believe your reality is the correct one. Yet you obviously don't believe it very strongly as here you are on a Christian forum. To be honest, when I was a non-Christian, you wouldn't catch me dead anywhere near a forum like this, I was actually very certain in my beliefs, enough not to feel compelled to seek out debates with those that hold opposing beliefs.

So, either this is just entertainment for you, in which case you really need to get an Xbox or something, or something in your life just isn't adding up. I don't expect you to admit to this now, but I'll bet my last dollar that you will think about it in the future. )

Cheers!
Digit

I started to reply to his post,.... but I honestly just stopped and changed my mind - so I give you credit for that.

I found SO many holes and problems with the thought processes & info, I didn't know where to start first.

 

[SonicBOOM]

Sin-
&#8212; n.
1a the breaking of divine or moral law, esp. by a conscious act

Sin relies upon god or the divine for the definition, so without god there can be no sin.

As an atheist i therfore believe that i truly have not sinned as i belive in all probability that there is no God. I cant have sinned as i dont recognise the law or morality of your god. Christians think and believe that i have sinned and that is a judgement that you make on anyone who doesnt believe as you do.

For you to convince me that i have "sinned" rather than done wrong by the morality of society or my country you will have to prove the existance and superiorty of your god.

I cannot disprove your god, though as i maintain the burden of proof lies with those making the positive claim, that would be Christians, making the claim that their god exists, and is the one true god.

Can there be any such thing as sin if you cannot prove the existance of you god?

well it depends on how you define sin! If you define sin as simply "wrong doing" than i think the most passionate atheist can tell you that they have been a victim of "wrong doing" from time to time. If they have been a victim of wrong doing than they have been sinned against.

Now I don't believe our views of morality are shaped by culture..... this is why. Everyone pretty much believes the same thing when their a child. Believe it or not Children believe in a sort of right and wrong and it seems to be all identical. A child knows when it's been hurt emotionally and the child will often say things like "he took that without asking" or "I gave you that last time, can I have it this time" or "can we share it?". This is only "shaped" later by culture. Also consider this. People will usually consider the barbarian culture of the dark ages as a "bad culture morally" yet we will often view a place full of grace and love and justice as a "good place morally". We have perceptions of morality brought on by culture... but we also have perceitpions of our own that we use to judge DIFFRENT morel communities. this points to a comparative viewpoint. If we are comparing a morel system in a sense of "good/bad morality" than we are comparing it with "the way things should be".

 

[climb8b]

I started to reply to his post,.... but I honestly just stopped and changed my mind - so I give you credit for that.

I found SO many holes and problems with the thought processes & info, I didn't know where to start first.

What a smarmy know it all reply, a real "wont cast pearls before swine" answer.

Thanks for your time for telling us you are soooo clever that you dont even have to answer.

 

[Digit]

What a smarmy know it all reply, a real "wont cast pearls before swine" answer.

Thanks for your time for telling us you are soooo clever that you dont even have to answer.

I think she was saying more that in Outreach we get many people asking the same thing or making the same mistakes over and over and after a while it gets tiring and we get fatigued. When someone comes along and makes all sorts of ridiculous claims and statements, often we look at it and go, "Oh boy... here we go again..." and to be fair, the fruit that we see in here is probably few and far between.

Even in non-religious forums, people rarely change their minds about something. The whole pearls before swine thing is often taken as an offensive remark by non-Christians, yet it's not intended that way. It simply illustrates we are giving things to someone who won't have any appreciation of them.

Cheers!
Digit

 

[SonicBOOM]

What a smarmy know it all reply, a real "wont cast pearls before swine" answer.

Thanks for your time for telling us you are soooo clever that you dont even have to answer.

hey... lets not get personal

 

[climb8b]

Digit,

First of all, i am not a worshiper of Dawkin, and i fully intend to get "wheel of time" by R Jordan, and i will give it a fair go and get back to you personally by PM. I start back at Uni soon so it may be next year depending on my work load and how readable the book is.

Have you ever heard the phrase "95% of generalisations are true" well generalisation and stereotypes are important valuable tools for survival and life. it is a generalisation that if a motor car hit you it will hurt, but as a generalisation it is not always true, but it is safer to go with the generalisation and steer clear of cars when you are a pedestrian. I know that generalisations are just taht and i am well aware of exeptions, which you of cource fully admit that you are in no way an exeption to the rule.

What is more noble, to hold a firm belief by faith, the earnest quest for knowledge, or the earnest quest for the truth through the aquisition of knowledge?

I have not declared myself an authority on any matter, i am just asking if you have any knowledge out side of the limited bible knowledge you seem to have.

Yes, i have read the bible, and controry to your opinion i have spent much of my life studying the bible. if by studying the bible you mean reading, researching, contemplating, checking fact and figures, meditating on passages etc then i think i qualify. Are you forgeting i spent around 16 years around churches of various denominations, and in various countries and i was a committed christian for the last 10 of those years, praying and reading and studying my bible daily, and dont dare trot out the not a true christian or i will have to jump up and down on your avatar.

Christianity has had a profound affect on my life and particularly on my childhood, i think it is important to encourage everyone particulary christians that before they commit to a faith that they fully understand what it is, what it stands for, and all the implications of belief. That is why i am here and that is why i will remain, i am active on an atheist forum and we dont attack christians asking why they are on an atheist forum, like they dont have a right to a say in the matter.

Something in my life doesnt add up? you are right! I dont have perfect knowledge of everything, do you. I am trying to get more knowledgeable in order to sort the wheat from the chaffe in my life, i currently have god and other irrational beliefs in the chaffe pile, are you going to give me a good sound well argued reason for moving it?

 

[Digit]

Are you going to give me a good sound well argued reason for moving it?

Is this the question you wish to pose, as so far I've not seen any question which is why I kept asking. You just posted a statement about what you believe.

I can for sure give you reasons, which will probably be based on my own experience, yet will you accept them or will you pretend to know better and that I am imagining it all, which is what is commonly thrown back?

I've seen people list reason after reason and it all comes down to the other party not accepting that reason. To be honest, all the reason you need you've probably got already - yet you have rejected that so what makes you think I have a nugget of life that will sway you otherwise?

What can I possibly offer that will win you over, that you haven't heard, read or seen already?

The problem climb, isn't in what is presented to you, it's you. Plain and simple. Either you have a desire to know God, or you don't. Period. I know I have a desire to know God, because if presented with two things, I will turn to the first that honors God, and will discard the other. I want to know God. Whereas non-Christians, will turn to the thing that dishonors God first, and discard the other. They have no desire.

At the end of the day I question the logic in someone not believing in God, because they don't like His character either. Not that I am saying you are guilty of this, just that it makes no sense to me. If I was trapped in a prison, you bet I would hate the person that put me there, but if he offered me a way to get out doing something I don't really like, I would most likely do it to get out too...

I think the one thing I can offer which may help is this:
In the Bible faith is always talked about as a willingness to turn to/from God. It starts with you. If you only accept what you see, you will never find God. The physical will not prove the presence of the spiritual, it's like cats teaching dogs to bark. The one has no domain over the other. I had a discussion with an Atheist the other day, who was relying heavily on the physical, the present, the obvious, the testable and I asked if there is anything outside this domain. He said he would never use purely the physical to govern his love for his wife, or assess her love for him. The Bible says "God is love". Yet we are demanding the two reconcile, the spiritual be testable and observable.

I have no proof my wife loves me. Nothing I can present to you that will prove it. Some would say that she married me is proof enough, but they stopped saying that after a while... and no one will find the bodies. I believe she loves me, her actions certainly make it seem so, yet I have no proof. At the end of the day, despite sometimes when her actions don't match up with what I feel is 'love' and when we fight or argue or whatever, I have faith and trust that she loves me.

So, either you take that leap of faith, or you don't really.

Cheers,
Digit

 

[climb8b]

I have no proof my wife loves me. Nothing I can present to you that will prove it. Some would say that she married me is proof enough, but they stopped saying that after a while... and no one will find the bodies. I believe she loves me, her actions certainly make it seem so, yet I have no proof. At the end of the day, despite sometimes when her actions don't match up with what I feel is 'love' and when we fight or argue or whatever, I have faith and trust that she loves me.

So, either you take that leap of faith, or you don't really.

So i look at the actions and the history of your god and i find a god who claims to love the people he created then he send the Isrealites to slaughter loads of them, and countless others throughout OT history, never mind the countless natural disaster that the world has faced in all history that your god did not avert or even attempt to save the people, then there are all the "christians" that are just plain ignorant and stupid enough to think that a flood in New Orleans is due to it being the home of a lesbian comedien.

What sort of a god do you worship, and what sort of a god do you think you worship. the two are not the same to me.

Regards.

 

[Digit]

So i look at the actions and the history of your god and i find a god who claims to love the people he created then he send the Isrealites to slaughter loads of them, and countless others throughout OT history,

Do you understand why He did those things? Why He judged them? Also, understand that the Bible documenting such things, is not equal to the Bible advocating such things. Be clear in what you read and what it actually says. I've seen far too many atheist networks say something like, 'The Bible advocates rape!' and quote the passage of Lot's daughters. There is a difference, don't get swept away in wanton disbelief.

never mind the countless natural disaster that the world has faced in all history that your god did not avert or even attempt to save the people

Well there is two things here.
1) Why would God stop the disasters?
2) How do you know He did nothing?
3) What do you expect Him to do?

then there are all the "christians" that are just plain ignorant and stupid enough to think that a flood in New Orleans is due to it being the home of a lesbian comedien.

I don't take responsibility for anyone who does something in my name, just like God does not take responsibility for people who do and say stupid things in His name.

Christians are the body of Christ. We are not christ. Christ's actions in the Bible speak for Him and what He sought to teach us. Our actions simply show how misguided, confused and fallen we truly are.

What sort of a god do you worship, and what sort of a god do you think you worship. the two are not the same to me.

Regards.

I worship and believe in a God who loves us, yet is righteous. Who forgives just for the asking, and punishes every transgression of divine law without exception. This world is firmly His domain, and most importantly, I have faith in the that He knows best. I understand through faith that there are things I do not understand, and there are things I do not know, yet I have faith that God will guide me and lead me through life if I am willing to listen.

 

[climb8b]

Good luck finding that god then.

Regards Climb8b.