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Taking Question on the Creation and/or the Flood

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Split Rock

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Sorry it took this long to respond. I was out of town.

OK. I'll bite. I asked this question of another creationist, but he didn't respond yet.

Why does the fossil record show us that not only some species but entire ecosystems of the past were different from any that exist today?

The past was different than it is today. Different "kinds" of animals existed then. As I have said before, if you were to observe all the animals that boarded the Ark, in my opinion, you would not have recognized half of them.
Are you claiming that modern "kinds" evolved from different "kinds" in the past? This qualifies as Macroevolution by every definition, both scientific and creationist, that I have seen.



Why don't we find extant (living) species in the fossil record?

Because the fossil record isn't nearly as old as you think it is.
I don't understand your answer. Please elaborate.
 
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Steezie

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God could have sent 10 times as much water as He did, and it would still have worked.
No he couldnt have. That much water would have disrupted the planet's gravitational rotation and destroyed.

I'm sure God handled all the "problems" that arose when nature tried to get in the way of His will.
And how did he do that?

As I have said before --- nature is hostile to God's creation --- but obedient.
That is not possible. You cannot be hostile yet obedient, thats like being on top of something but at the same time on the bottom.
 
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Nathan Poe

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No he couldnt have. That much water would have disrupted the planet's gravitational rotation and destroyed.

And how did he do that?

You know the answer to that by now -- "Goddidit." The wonderful all-purpose excuse whenever reason fails.

That is not possible. You cannot be hostile yet obedient, thats like being on top of something but at the same time on the bottom.

Actually it is possible in a sense -- I despise my boss, but still do what he tells me.

How this can be applied to something abstract like "nature" is a mystery -- no doubt AV will respond with yet another variation of "Goddidit."
 
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Basket

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To AV1611VET:

When I was taught about the 120 years thing, I was told that it was an explanation for the decrease in lifespan of the people.

Genesis 6:1-8

The flood and the tower of Babel

When mankind began to increase and to spread all over the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of the gods saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; so they took for themselves such women as they chose. But the Lord said, 'My life-giving spirit shall not remain in man forever; he for his part is mortal flesh; he shall live a hundred and twenty years.'

In those days when the sons of the gods had intercourse with the daughters of men and got children by them, the Nephilim were on the earth. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

When the Lord saw that man had done much evil on earth and that his thoughts and inclinations were always evil, he was sorry that he had made man on earth, and he was grieved at heart. He said, 'This race of men whom I have created, I will wipe them off the face of the earth -- man and beast, reptiles and birds. I am sorry that I ever made them.' But Noah had won the Lord's favour.

(end scripture)

Note the context in which he declares that man should only live 120 years. It's in the middle of while talking about the sons of the gods or angels or whoever they were having relationships with humans. I was playing a game just recently, and it sort of sticks out to me, because it was talking about a mermaid who had a relationship with a man. But mermaids live much longer than humans (at least in this game) , and he ended up dying much earlier than her. That's notable, don't you think?

The change in lifespans isn't immediate, but as you look on through the list of descendants, it'll show their lifespans slowly going down to around 100 years or so. For example, Abraham lived 175 years, Isaac lived 180 years, Jacob lived for 147 years, Joseph for 110 years, and Moses lived for 120 years.

And another thing to do with context -- it wasn't until verse 5 that it tells about God seeing how evil mankind had become. If the part about the 120 years was really about the amount of time before the flood, then it would have probably been after mentioning this fact.

In my opinion, the Bible doesn't say how long it took Noah to build the ark, or whether Noah tried to save the other people. Unless you decide to read between the lines.
Edit: I re-read the verses you provided from the new testament about Noah preaching to the men. I couldn't find them earlier while I was making my post. I agree that they do say he condemned the others before the flood. I'm guessing this idea probably found its way into the NT from a rabbinic tradition.

As I've said before, I generally accept the historical-critical method of interpreting the Bible, so I don't think that there were people who actually lived that long. But I think what I wrote above still applies to your interpretation.

To TheOutsider:

Look up the Sumerian's list of kings. It's likely that they got the long ages from them. The Sumerians/Babylonians also have a story very similar to that of Noah and the ark. And there's also the mythological tablet of destinies, which grants the person who owns it the power to do anything by simply speaking it. I suspect it is probably the inspiration behind the part in the Priestly creation story where it says God spoke and it was so.
 
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mpok1519

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Av reads the Bible literally when he knows he shouldn't in many places.

the 120 years thing is allegorical, as their year was much shorter than ours, close to half a year, actually.

no, i don't have a link, thats just what I know to be true after years and years of studies.
 
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Av reads the Bible literally when he knows he shouldn't in many places.

the 120 years thing is allegorical, as their year was much shorter than ours, close to half a year, actually.

no, i don't have a link, thats just what I know to be true after years and years of studies.

I think it must be wonderful to have a religion where you can decide what you religious book says,
you can make it say whatever you want, and if it doesn't say it as you would like you can twist it so it does,
it was written a long time ago so there is no one around to stop you or tell you how you should read it,
so you can interpret it as you see fit, a great way of doing it.

If the whole thing wasn't such a ridiculous story I would consider joining myself.
 
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mpok1519

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Well, to you, Consol, it may seem ridiculous. And to me, yes, I find the Bible oddly radical and illogical in some places yet I always seem to look past all the fuzz and try to grasp an understanding of what it means to be 'spiritually enlightened'.

And its not like anyone twists the words around; they just simply can't percieve what those words are trying to say. Like many, I do not claim any church for I feel organized religion has somewhat perverted the ultimate goal and reason of Christianity-love and tolerance for people while forging a need to become more than 'sinful creatures'.

Christianity needs more folks like Jesus in it cuz all these Bible beating literalists are quite suffocating.
 
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AV1611VET

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He must not have been that good if the only people he could convince was his family.

That's a testimony to how bad things had gotten. 120 years, and Noah didn't win a single convert outside of his family. (At least, none that were willing to board the Ark.)
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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That's a testimony to how bad things had gotten. 120 years, and Noah didn't win a single convert outside of his family. (At least, none that were willing to board the Ark.)
And what evidence do you have that he even tried? Didn't God say he would destroy all flesh except Noah and family and the critters on the ark? Wouldn't Noah have been going against what God said if he had tried to convince others to join him on the ark?
 
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AV1611VET

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Too bad Noah wasn't a performer of righteousness.

[bible]Genesis 9:20-25[/bible]

The Bible doesn't downplay anyone's character. It wasn't written to put people up on a pedestal. It exposes them - warts and all.
  • Noah --- got drunk.
  • Abraham --- disobeyed God and went to Egypt.
  • Moses --- lost his temper on more than one occassion.
  • Joshua --- failed to pray in a critical situation.
  • Judah --- slept with his daughter-in-law.
  • David --- committed adultery and murder.
  • Solomon --- had many strange wives.
The list goes on and on about Samson, Jonah, various kings of Israel, etc.
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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The Bible doesn't downplay anyone's character. It wasn't written to put people up on a pedestal. It exposes them - warts and all.
  • Noah --- got drunk.
  • Abraham --- disobeyed God and went to Egypt.
  • Moses --- lost his temper on more than one occassion.
  • Joshua --- failed to pray in a critical situation.
  • Judah --- slept with his daughter-in-law.
  • David --- committed adultery and murder.
  • Solomon --- had many strange wives.
The list goes on and on about Samson, Jonah, various kings of Israel, etc.
Don't forget Lot getting a free pass for banging his daughters after his poor wife had been turned into a pillar of salt just for looking back.
 
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AV1611VET

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AV>> you're only driving people AWAY rather than keeping them interesting and intrigued, something Jesus could teach you to do.

Funny --- I've been "driving them away" for 24 pages now.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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My question somehow got lost, so I'll repost:

AV, please demonstrate how you intend to empirically (remember the original question?) test the claim "Whoever believes in Jesus has eternal life", for example, using only the KJV.
 
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AV1611VET

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Nathan Poe

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The Bible doesn't downplay anyone's character. It wasn't written to put people up on a pedestal. It exposes them - warts and all.
  • Noah --- got drunk.
  • Abraham --- disobeyed God and went to Egypt.
  • Moses --- lost his temper on more than one occassion.
  • Joshua --- failed to pray in a critical situation.
  • Judah --- slept with his daughter-in-law.
  • David --- committed adultery and murder.
  • Solomon --- had many strange wives.
The list goes on and on about Samson, Jonah, various kings of Israel, etc.

So you agree that God made the wrong choice when he went to choose a "righteous" man to save civilization. Too bad He, in all His alleged omniscience, didn't see that coming.
 
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Loudmouth

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I really don't understand this question.

My original question was "What observation, if observed, would falsify a young earth, a recent global flood, and special creation?". This is a rather straightforward question. All I am asking is under which conditions would these three claims be untenable. For example, in a court of law a negative DNA match would falsify the claim that a specific suspect is at fault. What I want from you is the same type of potential observation/evidence that would require one to throw out the idea of a young earth, a recent global flood, and special creation.
 
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Basket

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The Bible doesn't downplay anyone's character. It wasn't written to put people up on a pedestal. It exposes them - warts and all.
  • Noah --- got drunk.
  • Abraham --- disobeyed God and went to Egypt.
  • Moses --- lost his temper on more than one occassion.
  • Joshua --- failed to pray in a critical situation.
  • Judah --- slept with his daughter-in-law.
  • David --- committed adultery and murder.
  • Solomon --- had many strange wives.
The list goes on and on about Samson, Jonah, various kings of Israel, etc.

The one you mentioned about Abraham is sort of iffy. He only went there temporarily because of the famine. It doesn't say that God was angry with him.

Even when Abraham deceives the Egyptians and the people of Gerar about his wife/half-sister Sarah, God is not angy with Abraham but the other party. He was trying to save his butt, and God seemed to be understanding about that.

Also, you should have probably said that Solomon had many foreign wives, since most people probably don't know that's what strange means in that context. Most likely, the foreign wives worshipped other gods.
 
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