Taking Question on the Creation and/or the Flood

[Split Rock]

So let's see if I've got the story straight so far. This all knowing all powerful God creates a perfect universe that includes a perfect man and a perfect woman. Then the serpent that the all knowing God created tempts the woman to get the man to eat an apple leading this God to curse his supposedly perfect creation that has now been "turned over to Satan", one of the supposedly perfect creations of this God that turned out to have iniquity that was found. Apparantely the all knowing and all powerful God was not able to prevent this turnover.

Then the "sons" of this all knowing God mated with the daughters of men who were descended from the once perfect but now cursed couple. Somehow the mating of these previously "perfect" sons of God or maybe Angels with the daughters of the descendants of the previously perfect people led to great wickedness.

The all knowing all powerful God then says, "Hey my creation is really screwed up. I'll just wipe it out with a big flood and start over". But then he notices that Noah isn't so bad after all so he decides to save Noah and his family and a boat load of animals.

The he make this big flood that covers all the mountains and goes on for quite a while with the water prevailing on the earth but then he "remembers" Noah and decides to end the flood.

Now you would think that every animal left would be of great value but Noah decides to burn up one of each clean animal right away making a smell that the all knowing God thinks is real sweet. (I guess when God made us in his image he did give us a different sense of smell. I never thought burning chicken feathers smelled very sweet)

Next Noah gets drunk and naked and curses Ham and all his descendants to be servants for seeing him drunk and naked. But God decides that's OK, maybe because those burning chicken feathers smelled so sweet.

Then God cleans up all the evidence of the flood and does things like creating lake varve and tree ring sequences more than 10,000 years long and getting nearly all the marsupials and all the monotremes and none of the placental mammals to go to New Guinea and Australia and lots of other things to make it look like he never did this horrible deed of drowning the earth but he messes up the job of covering his tracks completely because he just can't resist inspiring someone among his "chosen people" to write down the story.

Is that about it?

Yep... that's about it.

The whole problem comes from Creationists not liking the world that they believe their loving, perfect, omnipotent God created. Aparrently because they don't like death, decay and suffering. So how do they solve this problem where God created such a world? By making Man responsible for corrupting the perfect world their omnipotent God created. But why does an omnipotent God let Man corrupt His entire Creation? Why does He make a Perfect Organism that would do such a thing in the first place? That remains a mystery they can never explain...

 

[FishFace]

Yep... that's about it.

The whole problem comes from Creationists not liking the world that they believe their loving, perfect, omnipotent God created. Aparrently because they don't like death, decay and suffering. So how do they solve this problem where God created such a world? By making Man responsible for corrupting the perfect world their omnipotent God created. But why does an omnipotent God let Man corrupt His entire Creation? Why does He make a Perfect Organism that would do such a thing in the first place? That remains a mystery they can never explain...

Sure they can - AV could tell you easily. In fact he does, every time he posts:

"GODDIDIT!"

 

[thaumaturgy]

But why does an omnipotent God let Man corrupt His entire Creation? Why does He make a Perfect Organism that would do such a thing in the first place? That remains a mystery they can never explain...

LEt me put on my super-theist thinkin' hat here and propose a fully theistic answer:

"Well, God doesn't want 'automatons', he wants people to FREELY give him their love and adoration and thanks for providing them with a wonderful world. Ergo, since God is constrained by logic--well, we dunno that fer sure--but in any event he gave us 'free-will', which mankind immediately (and I do mean IMMEDIATELY) used against God, not even a generation into the experiment, right off the rails, into sin.

Now God, being a loving God realized that if he was going to get the freely given love and worship he'd have to install the threat of eternal torment, quite in disproportion to a finite lifespan. This sets up the ever merciful concept of being able to 'sin' for about 72 years (on average) followed by an eternity of unbearable torment. All because he loves us so much and he GAVE us free will which we were supposed to use doing only those things he wanted us to do and not other things.

So, you see, it all works out for the best. We all get to sin as much as we want for a short period of time, followed by eternal torment which never ends. And all along we had only a couple thousand competing conceptions of God to choose from without any external proof of which conception was correct.

This is the best of all possible worlds!

Blessings."

(Did I do good? Am I good person of faith?)

 

[consol]

It makes you wonder how it ever came to be believed in the first place,
they must have been in a desperate state to try to cling to that for salvation,
they say a drowning man will cling to leaves in desperation, they must have been in the same boat,
then once it's past from one generation to the other, it becomes an established fact,
kids brought up with it believe what their parents believed, no questions asked.

Absolutely none of it sticks together, it is more holy than righteous, (as they say)
in this day and age you would think even the dullest Christian would ask questions

 

[metherion]

I would like to post a very simple question.

Should be right up AV's alley.

How long was the Flood? Exactly, accurate to the nearest day. How long was it?

With Scripture verses definitely and math if necessary.

Metherion

 

[Steezie]

I'd say AV has abandoned ship

 

[FishFace]

I'd say AV has abandoned ship

If only he'd done it during a global flood!

 

[AV1611VET]

I would like to post a very simple question.

Should be right up AV's alley.

How long was the Flood? Exactly, accurate to the nearest day. How long was it?

With Scripture verses definitely and math if necessary.

Metherion

One year and ten days.

[bible]Genesis 7:11[/bible][bible]Genesis 8:14[/bible]

 

[metherion]

Well, I went through the story and found the following times in the following verses:

7:24 gives 150 days
8:3 gives another 150 days
8:6 gives another 40
and between 8:10 and 8:12 we add 14 days more for the dove.

These lengths are in additon to the 40 days of rain at the start.

Now, adding these up does not give the correct amount of time for year and ten days by the Jewish calendar OR the current calendar.

Metherion

 

[Basket]

One year and ten days.

[bible]Genesis 7:11[/bible][bible]Genesis 8:14[/bible]

The Hebrews back then didn't use the Gregorian calendar. How many days were in that year?

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, I went through the story and found the following times in the following verses:

7:24 gives 150 days
8:3 gives another 150 days
8:6 gives another 40
and between 8:10 and 8:12 we add 14 days more for the dove.

These lengths are in additon to the 40 days of rain at the start.

Now, adding these up does not give the correct amount of time for year and ten days by the Jewish calendar OR the current calendar.

Metherion

Then try adding 7:11 with 8:14 --- like I did.

 

[AV1611VET]

The Hebrews back then didn't use the Gregorian calendar. How many days were in that year?

Probably 360 --- putting Noah on the Ark for 370 days total.

 

[metherion]

or, alternatively, we can look at 8:13 and compare it to 8:14.

and I'll even use the KJV just for you.

nd it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

and compare it to 8:14
]quote=8:14]
And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
[/quote]

Neither of them have ANY equivocation whatsoever. Both say that the earth was dry, and neither has the same date.

So, how long was the Flood? Which verse should we ignore?

And, according to 8:11, at least olive trees survived the Flood without being taken onto the Ark.

And the earth was dry a week before Noah opened the Ark
(8:11: ... so Noah knew that the waters were abated from the earth.)

However, according to 8:13 the waters weren't dry until the day Noah opened the Ark.

Furthermore, 61 days from the first day of the tenth month is not 4 months (or an even two months) in either our calendar or the Jewish one. However, if you do the math (40 days from 8:6, 3 weeks from the dove), we find that that MUST be the time until either month 1 day 1 or month 2 day 27.

Then try adding 7:11 with 8:14 --- like I did.

So the actual story itself in unreliable as to dates? Then how are we to take it literally?



Metherion

 

[Basket]

Well, I went through the story and found the following times in the following verses:

7:24 gives 150 days
8:3 gives another 150 days
8:6 gives another 40
and between 8:9 and 8:14 we add 14 days more for the dove.

These lengths are in additon to the 40 days of rain at the start.

Now, adding these up does not give the correct amount of time for year and ten days by the Jewish calendar OR the current calendar.

Metherion

Well, the way it adds the time up is very confusing, but it is possible to decipher.

Forget about the first 40 days. The 150 days following that is inclusive of them.

You shouldn't count the 150 days twice. After the second time it mentions them, look at the difference of the dates (Genesis 7:11 = 2/17; Genesis 8:4 = 7/17). There's 5 months difference.

What I'm not sure of is if whether 150 days is rounded to the nearest 10, or if each of those months had 30 days in them.

Then on 10/1 the ark rests on the mountains of Ararat.

You have 40(raven) + 7(dove1) + 7(dove2) + 7(dove3) = about 61

61 days beyond 10/1 is the beginning of the next year, which it mentions in the next verse. (edit: actually, I made a mistake. see post #278)

Genesis 8:13 -- "And so it came about that, on the first day of the first month of his six hundred and first year, the water had dried up on the earth..."

It then says ~again~ that on 2/27 of Noah's 601st year that the earth is dry, and Noah comes out of the ark. Apparently it wasn't dry enough before.

Once again, I don't know the exact number of days, because I'm not sure about the calendar.

*looks at new post by AV1611VET*

It's a good possibility. It's what I've been considering, anyway. Since 150 days is exactly 5 months (from 2/17 to 7/17), it makes sense.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, the way it adds the time up is very confusing, but it is possible to decipher.

Forget about the first 40 days. The 150 days following that is inclusive of them.

You shouldn't count the 150 days twice. After the second time it mentions them, look at the difference of the dates (Genesis 7:11 = 2/17; Genesis 8:4 = 7/17). There's 5 months difference.

What I'm not sure of is if whether 150 days is rounded to the nearest 10, or if each of those months had 30 days in them.

Then on 10/1 the ark rests on the mountains of Ararat.

You have 40(raven) + 7(dove1) + 7(dove2) + 7(dove3) = about 61

61 days beyond 10/1 is the beginning of the next year, which it mentions in the next verse.

Genesis 8:13 -- "And so it came about that, on the first day of the first month of his six hundred and first year, the water had dried up on the earth..."

It then says ~again~ that on 2/27 of Noah's 601st year that the earth is dry, and Noah comes out of the ark. Apparently it wasn't dry enough before.

Once again, I don't know the exact number of days, because I'm not sure about the calendar.

*looks at new post by AV1611VET*

It's a good possibility. It's what I've been considering, anyway. Since 150 days is exactly 5 months (from 2/17 to 7/17), it makes sense.

An impressive answer! Why don't you have your reps enabled?

 

[Steezie]

AV, I notice you havent answered certain questions.

Originally Posted by AV1611VET
God could have sent 10 times as much water as He did, and it would still have worked.
No he couldnt have. That much water would have disrupted the planet's gravitational rotation and destroyed.

Quote:
I'm sure God handled all the "problems" that arose when nature tried to get in the way of His will.
And how did he do that?

Quote:
As I have said before --- nature is hostile to God's creation --- but obedient.
That is not possible. You cannot be hostile yet obedient, thats like being on top of something but at the same time on the bottom.

 

[metherion]

And you've still to answer the rest of my second post, about the date given in 8:13 being a month and a half different than that in 8:14.

Metherion

 

[Basket]

Sorry, I made a mistake. I was in a hurry to leave and I didn't realize it until after I left. I'm surprised no one caught it.

The first day of the 10th month, which I abbreviate 10/1, is the day when the tops of the mountains could be seen. About 60 days beyond that would be the 1st day of the 12th month, not the first day of the new year. So we have a few possibilities. The most likely is that Noah waited a month after releasing the dove for the last time, before opening the window/hatch in the ark. Another possibility is that the dove took many days for it to return each time. Yet another (but unlikely) possibility is that, perhaps, that year only had 11 months in it for synchronization purposes. Anyway... the Bible is rather vague about it, so it's not that important. Maybe Noah was chillin' with the animals on the ark, I dunno.

As for why I have reputation taken off... I've seen the system in use in other forums, and I don't care much for it. It's nice to know what people say in the rep comments, but I'd rather people judge me solely by my posts' contents than a rep bar and that other personal info stuff.

To metherion:

According to the documentary hypothesis, both of those verses are in the same source document (P), so the repetition was probably on purpose. The part where Noah looks out the hatch, though, is thought to be part of the J document.

http://www.hope.edu/bandstra/RTOT/CH1/CH1_TBG.HTM

 

[AV1611VET]

As for why I have reputation taken off... I've seen the system in use in other forums, and I don't care much for it. It's nice to know what people say in the rep comments, but I'd rather people judge me solely by my posts' contents than a rep bar and that other personal info stuff.

Basket, do you know me personally?

 

[metherion]

@ basket:

Thanks for the link. But the problem still remains. It is not a repetition. Nor a repeat. It is a completely different date. There is a month and 16 days missing. Both 8:13 and 8:14 cannot be right.


Metherion