Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity?

[George the 3rd]

PS: Are you three related, belong to the same lodge or something that you all answer each others questions ?

At least your questions are being addressed! (hint hint!)

 

[Rev Wayne]

This is not in the same context.

If a church has a men’s meeting it means that a particular time / day there is a men’s group but thereafter the FAMILY come back together to the church.

It does not mean that women are excluded ALL THE TIME.

At our lodge, the men meet a certain night. The women meet in their Eastern Star a certain night. There are open occasions when both will come. There are public functions where the whole family will come.

You're really showing your predilection for the inane with all this.

Next you'll be hounding the Brownies and the Cub Scouts.

 

[George the 3rd]

Really,

This is not in the same context.

If a church has a men’s meeting it means that a particular time / day there is a men’s group but thereafter the FAMILY come back together to the church.

It does not mean that women are excluded ALL THE TIME.

And IF Freemasonry were a Religion, which of course IT IS NOT and it excluded women you might have a point. BUT, it is a Fraternity! An organization FOR MEN. What is so hard to understand about that?

Did you ever go to a professional Baseball game? Did you see any women on the field? How many women are there in the NFL?

How many men do you think belong to these organizations?

• American Association for Women Radiologists AAWR
• American Association of University Women
• American Woman Suffrage Association
• Association of Women Professionals
• Association for Women in Science (AWIS)
• Big Sisters
• Business and Professional Women
• Concerned Women for America
• Daughters of the American Revolution - Historical society (founded 1890)
• Daughters of Utah Pioneers - Historical society (founded 1919)
• Feminists for Life
• Degree of Pocahontas
• General Federation of Women's Clubs (1890)
• Girl Scouts of the United States of America
• Hadassah
• Junior League
• La Leche League
• League of Women Voters
• National Council of Jewish Women
• National Organization for Women (NOW)
• Pythian Sisters
• Rebekah Degree
• National American Woman Suffrage Association
• National Woman Suffrage Association
• Royal Neighbors of America
• U.S. Women's Chamber of Commerce
• Woman's Christian Temperance Union
• Women's Bowling Congress
• Woman's Missionary Union
• Women's Commission for Refugee Women and Children

(just to mention a few!)

So what's yer point about women not belonging to Freemasonry?!

 

[AndrewCS]

At our lodge, the men meet a certain night. The women meet in their Eastern Star a certain night. There are open occasions when both will come. There are public functions where the whole family will come.

You're really showing your predilection for the inane with all this.

Next you'll be hounding the Brownies and the Cub Scouts.

I’ll use one of the favourites here:

Let’s stay on topic, what have the Brownies or the Cubs to do with my questions?

 

[George the 3rd]

Concerned Women for America is a conservative Christian political action group active in the United States. The group was founded in 1979 by Beverly LaHaye, wife of Christian Coalition co-founder Timothy LaHaye, as a response to activities by the National Organization for Women and a 1978 Barbara Walters interview with noted feminist Betty Friedan.[1] Concerned Women for America says of itself:
We are the nation's largest public policy women's organization with a rich 28-year history of helping our members across the country bring Biblical principles into all levels of public policy. We help people focus on six core issues, which we have determined need Biblical principles most and where we can have the greatest impact.[2] CWA does not publish membership numbers, but external estimates range between 250,000 and 750,000, depending upon how membership is defined. As of 2006, the circulation of its free bimonthly newsletter, Family Voice, was estimated to be approximately 200,000 copies.[1]

How many men belong to this group?

 

[AndrewCS]

And IF Freemasonry were a Religion, which of course IT IS NOT !

The title of this thread?

We agree at last

Exactly, the Masons are a fraternity.

 

[Rev Wayne]

Let’s stay on topic, what have the Brownies or the Cubs to do with my questions?

On the last two pages, you've asked a grand total of two.

The first, "What about the women," has already been answered many times over.

The second, "Are you three related, belong to the same lodge or something that you all answer each others questions," has nothing to do with anything at all.

So a better question would be, "What do your questions (or comments either, for that matter) have to do with the topic anyway?"

As for your current question, you apparently miss the obvious point that Brownies are an all-female organization and Cub Scouts are all-male.

 

[Rev Wayne]

This guy really says it all:

Coincidence of Masonic Principles with Divine
Revelation.


AFTER what has been said, in relation to some of the leading principles embraced in the Masonic system, it may not be improper briefly to show their coincidence with Divine Revelation. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testament, are now received and acknowledged, by all Christian nations, to be given by Divine Inspiration. Hence, all Christendom quote the authority of this book in all matters of religious faith and practice.. To this also we appeal as a standard for the correctness and sanctity of our principles.

Masonic faith acknowledges the holy Bible to be the word of God, that it was written by persons Divinely inspired, and reveals the whole duty of man. Let us therefore candidly compare the Masonic system with that standard of truth.

That sacred volume clearly reveals the existence of one Supreme Eternal God. The Masonic system is first opened to the view of every member, by a solemn acknowledgment of this fundamental truth. The Bible exhibits the nature, character and perfections of God as essentially and infinitely excellent, and himself as a being in whom all our holy affections should ultimately centre. Masonry, in the strongest and most impressive language, inculcates the same interesting truths. The Scriptures enjoin supreme love to God, and universal benevolence to all mankind. These are the first duties impressed on the heart of a Mason. Inspiration urges the exercise of brotherly love, and a due regard to the well-being of our neighbour. Masonry considers the whole human family as brethren, and imperiously enjoins mutual and reciprocal friendship and affection.

The holy Bible enforces a strict adherence to truth, as a Divine attribute. This is a distinguishing tenet in the Masonic system, and impressed on the mind by all the authority of the Institution. The Word of God requires a conscientious and scrupulous observance of justice in every relation. Masonry adopts this principle as a criterion of moral rectitude. The Sacred Writings enforce a religious attention to the Sabbath, as a day of holy rest. Masonry is equally emphatic in all her commands and injunctions, to keep that day holy. The Word of God enjoins submission and obedience to the powers that be, as ordained of God. Masonry lays similar commands on all her members, and enforces them by constant admonitions. The Scriptures teach us, in general terms, all the duties of charity, to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, to visit the widow and fatherless, ami keep ourselves unspotted from the world. Masonry dwells upon these subjects in every degree, and lays her members under solemn obligation to exercise Christian charity and benevolence, and never to violate the Iaws of charity. The Word of God teaches us to love our enemies, and render good for evil. Masonry will feed a brother, though a personal enemy, even at the point of a sword, should his necessities absolutely require it, and uniformly exhorts to overcome evil with good. Inspiration commands us to live peaceably with all men, and pursue our lawful avocations with diligent application. The nature of the Masonic Institution accords with those principles, and enjoins similar commands in numerous ways. The Scriptures of truth, in every part, hold forth such duties, in general terms, as are incumbent on moral beings in every situation of life. Masonry is a system, which, in this particular, conveys every station and condition of life into a subject of useful instruction.

By the Oracles of Truth we are also forbidden to indulge in anger and resentment, profanity, rioting and intemperance, falsehood and slander, hatred, malice and revenge, and every vice which corrupts the human heart, disturbs good society, or in any respect is repugnant to a sober and virtuous life. Masonry interdicts every vice, lays her restraints, prohibitions and commands on every member, and enforces obedience by the authority of her discipline. The Scriptures, in a word, require a strict obedience to the whole moral law. This law is summarily interwoven with every part of the Masonic system.
Such are some of the more general principles and duties contained in the Scriptures of truth :—the same are fundamental in the system of Masonry.
For the truth of these sentiments, and the correctness of their statement, an appeal is made to every Mason, who understands the system, and every just memorial of the order, both ancient arid modern.

It hence appears, that the same system of faith, and the same practical duties taught by Revelation, ate contained in, and required by, the Masonic Institution. If, therefore, the former be justly entitled to the approbation of mankind, from the nature and excellence of its principles, the latter must be. If the former is wisely calculated to alleviate human misery and promote the happiness of man, so must the latter be. As the former accords with the nature and fitness of things, so does the latter. If the Christian system displays the glory of the moral Governor of the universe, and constrains us to admire and love his character, so also does the Masonic.

It is, therefore, believed, in view of these considerations, every unprejudiced mind will draw a favourable conclusion of our system. Surely it cannot be otherwise. These are the genuine principles of Masonry, and every member is solemnly bound to believe them in his heart, and practice them in his life.
(Salem Town, A System of Speculative Masonry, pp. 46-50)

 

[AndrewCS]

As for your current question, you apparently miss the obvious point that Brownies are an all-female organization and Cub Scouts are all-male.

Question:

What has this to do with Freemasons being compatible with Christianity ?

 

[AndrewCS]

And IF Freemasonry were a Religion, which of course IT IS NOT and it excluded women you might have a point. BUT, it is a Fraternity! An organization FOR MEN. What is so hard to understand about that?

Did you ever go to a professional Baseball game? Did you see any women on the field? How many women are there in the NFL?

How many men do you think belong to these organizations?

• American Association for Women Radiologists AAWR
• American Association of University Women
• American Woman Suffrage Association
• Association of Women Professionals
• Association for Women in Science (AWIS)
• Big Sisters
• Business and Professional Women
• Concerned Women for America
• Daughters of the American Revolution - Historical society (founded 1890)
• Daughters of Utah Pioneers - Historical society (founded 1919)
• Feminists for Life
• Degree of Pocahontas
• General Federation of Women's Clubs (1890)
• Girl Scouts of the United States of America
• Hadassah
• Junior League
• La Leche League
• League of Women Voters
• National Council of Jewish Women
• National Organization for Women (NOW)
• Pythian Sisters
• Rebekah Degree
• National American Woman Suffrage Association
• National Woman Suffrage Association
• Royal Neighbors of America
• U.S. Women's Chamber of Commerce
• Woman's Christian Temperance Union
• Women's Bowling Congress
• Woman's Missionary Union
• Women's Commission for Refugee Women and Children

(just to mention a few!)

So what's yer point about women not belonging to Freemasonry?!

How many of these above are Christain ?

 

[G19]

How many of these above are Christain ?

Logic has left the building.

 

[AndrewCS]

Logic has left the building.

I agree

Except if you really want to be precise - it's a forum

 

[Rev Wayne]

What has this to do with Freemasons being compatible with Christianity ?

Beats me, I was just answering your question. If it was off-topic, look in the mirror and ask your question to the guy you see there.

But since the topic seems to have gotten your interest, which is a welcome change, perhaps you might read #308 and you'll see the topic very directly addressed.

 

[O.F.F.]

It has only been in recent years that many churches have begun to implement positive changes making their churches completely handicap-accessible, the lack of which was in itself an automatic exclusionary practice toward handicapped people.

The Church has not excluded the handicap from participating in worship services, and you know it. The reason for the recent change in accessibility, both in churches and businesses, has been driven primarily by the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990.

But the question is, has the Masonic Lodge made similar changes to their Temples, in order to comply with the law, making them more accommodating for the handicap? In fact, can G19, G3 or MOA honestly admit that their lodges have made such accommodations? And, when was the last time you saw a handicap Mason at a lodge meeting?

I'm not talking about something as simple as one walking with a "TUBALCAIN." Oops, I meant a cane. Nor am I referring to a Mason in the military who loss his legs in Iraq or other recent war. Most interesting to know, would be, have you ever seen or heard of a wheelchaired, handicap man accepted for initiation as an Entered Apprentice? In other words, would your lodge accept a quadripilegic, "free-born" of lawful age, and well recommended, knowing that he could never give a "token" or render a "due guard" or "sign?"

Official Grand Lodge documentation to support such findings would suffice.

 

[G19]

...wheelchaired, handicap man accepted for initiation as an Entered Apprentice? In other words, would your lodge accept a quadripilegic, "free-born" of lawful age, and well recommended, knowing that he could never give a "token" or render a "due guard" or "sign?"

Red herring, Mike. This has nothing to do with the compatibility of freemasonry and Christianity.

 

[Rev Wayne]

The Church has not excluded the handicap from participating in worship services, and you know it. The reason for the recent change in accessibility, both in churches and businesses, has been driven primarily by the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990.

But many churches who were aware of the unintentional but nonetheless real exclusion, were already on board well before then. It doesn't matter what drives it, Mike, it's still a reality. Heck, the point you make even enforces further the idea that churches were excluding the handicapped, by the very fact that they had to be FORCED into compliance by government action. How you thought this would throw any different light on it is beyond me.

But the question is, has the Masonic Lodge made similar changes to their Temples, in order to comply with the law, making them more accommodating for the handicap? In fact, can G19, G3 or MOA honestly admit that their lodges have made such accommodations?

Gee, Mike, if only I hadn't moved recently, I could have posted a picture for you, showing the handicap ramp that runs along the side of the building at my lodge, Cavins #226. But rest assured, the next opportunity I have to make that trip back upstate, I will be sure to get that picture and send you a copy.

But this is just more of your nonsense anyway. Don't you have internet access? (I hope you don't take too long in figuring that one out.) Since you obviously do, why is it you can't do a little searching on your own and find out what Masons already know? For instance, in Indiana:

As new organizations express interest in renting our building, it is vitally important that we bring our Temple into the modern age, with handicapped access for our members and visitors. In keeping with that goal, a new entrance is coming for the south side of the building. The crumbling stairs and obsolete wheelchair lift will soon be replaced by a new concrete ramp and stairs, covered by an awning. In addition, the parking lot on the south side of the Temple will be expanded as much as our limited property line will allow us - perhaps four new spaces. Final drawings have been made, and we are in the bidding process now. We anticipate construction to begin in September.

And besides, you were already presented with the information which you ellipsed from the very quote in which you first made this accusation, indicating that this has changed. And since the article was written in 1930, that means changes had already been underway OVER 75 YEARS AGO, Mike!

It's old hat for sure, as this statement on Kentucky's web page verifies:

A Mason must be of sound mind and body, which does not mean that you cannot be physically handicapped, many Masons are.
http://www.grandlodgeofkentucky.org/about/joining.htm

The ellipsed info from your quote made mention of exceptions being made for those who had been handicapped due to service in our country's wars. Here is another site, on which it makes special mention of one particular item for sale:

BRAND NEW SPECIAL PINS: OES or Masonic or Breast Cancer Pins $5.00 each! These are special pins will make a SPECIAL gift for someone as they have wonderful craftmanship made by Disabled Masons. These make a wonderful statement of our love for our soldiers and those we love fighting the war on cancer as well..
http://www.annettewintters.com/masonic.html

I'd post more, but your continued arguing on this point is so ludicrous, why bother??

 

[George the 3rd]

But the question is, has the Masonic Lodge made similar changes to their Temples, in order to comply with the law, making them more accommodating for the handicap? In fact, can G19, G3 or MOA honestly admit that their lodges have made such accommodations? And, when was the last time you saw a handicap Mason at a lodge meeting?

I don't even know how to begin to answer this! I have personally sat in Lodge with men having all sorts of physical impairments. I have been to Grand Lodge where men have attended with their seeing eye dogs or service dogs. A man in our district has a right arm and hand that is so whithered that it is impossible for him to ever give a Masonic "grip"or "sign" in the "proper" way. He was neither, obviously, rejected for membership nor excluded from full participation in both Blue Lodge degree work or Scottish Rite work.

Prior to the installation of an elevator at the Lodge where I was Raised and served as Master, men who could not negotiate the stairs were either brought up the stairs in their wheel chairs or physically carried. At an award ceremony where 25, 50 etc. year pins were to be presented in open lodge, a Brother who was to receive a 60 year pin was too fragile to even be assisted up the stairs. The Master received permission (dispensation) from the Grand Master to hold the meeting downstairs to accommodate him.

I could go on and on, but my point, I believe is well made. In fact, I can't imagine any Masonic Lodge where this would not be the norm. It's curious how when it is convenient for you to falsely attack Masonry for "only taking care of it's own" you do so, but when you have no other legitimate criticism to make, you create a condition within Masonry where we exclude or marginalize those with physical disabilities. It blows the mind!

I will say this, though, if your experiences within Masonry were as you try to describe them as they relate to men with disabilities, I couldn't blame you for leaving the craft. But I seriously doubt it was.

You know Mike, when you make these ridiculous statements that are so easily and obviously refuted, you do more to further the claims of Masonry and repeatedly hinder your efforts to demonize it.
George

 

[George the 3rd]

In fact, can G19, G3 or MOA honestly admit that their lodges have made such accommodations?

Well, Mike, you have heard from all three, care to make either a retraction or apology, or both?!

 

[Rev Wayne]

The Kentucky quote above, just for point of information, is directly from Kentucky Grand Lodge's website. If you will check, I'm sure you will find out it is considered official information for all of Kentucky Masons, as information posted there must be cleared through their Grand Lodge before posting.

But the insistence on "official" documentation is disingenuous anyway, since the real proof that the handicapped may be Masons is to be found in personally documented accounts that it has actually happened, or in accounts like those above showing that it not only happens, but is PROVIDED for in the accommodation of buildings for MEMBERS.

 

[bluemarkus]

YOU GUYS ROCK MY WORLD !!!