Marriage, Divorce, & Remarriage

[porterross]

Those aren't my words, they are God's. If you have a problem with them you'll have to take it up with Him.

SealedEternal

You would limit Christ's salvation to those you deem worthy and I am certain in my heart that He is not that limited. Justification for judging others is a waste of time and mockery of our place in the priesthood. It is nothing but hypocrisy.

 

[porterross]

This is one person's opinion based on his interpretation of scripture, which he zeolously believes to be true.

But what do the vast majority of Church pastors and other leaders believe? Obviously, not the same thing, otherwise they wouldn't be performing second marriages for the tens of millions of people every year who would be affected by this situation.

God love you, Servant.

Yes, I know that the church is not as unloving or unforgiving as many would have them be. The funny thing about that is, if the church were indeed as judgemental as its individual members, not even they would be allowed to attend.

The good that has come out of reading all this negativity and the hateful attitudes of those who would put limits on God's Kingdom that He never intended, is my convincing two pastors so far that Divorce Care is desperately needed to be offered by the church to reach out to and help heal, by welcoming, those who have been treated as though they are condemned to hell for their past mistakes in this area. I am very excited about this.

I had no idea this horrible, hateful, judgemental attitude still existed among Christians, but I pray their hearts would be touched by the Holy Spirit so they might realize we are commanded to love another and not judge. It's much like those who feel they are better for not making any mistakes (in their eyes) and would keep people out of Heaven because they didn't accept Christ until their last hours. Christ was pretty clear on this issue:

Luke 15:7

I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

 

[SealedEternal]

But what do the vast majority of Church pastors and other leaders believe? Obviously, not the same thing, otherwise they wouldn't be performing second marriages for the tens of millions of people every year who would be affected by this situation.

Matthew 7:13-23 "ENTER THROUGH THE NARROW GATE; for the gate is WIDE and the way is BROAD that leads to DESTRUCTION, and there are MANY who enter through it. "For the gate is SMALL and the way is NARROW that leads to LIFE, and there are FEW who find it. "BEWARE of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "NOT EVERYONE WHO SAYS TO ME, 'LORD, LORD,' WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

According to Jesus, the fact that everyone agrees with you is a sign that you're on the wrong path. He says it is the few who come to know Him, while most professing Christians do not. That is why we are warned repeatedly not to be deceived by the precepts of men, but to make Him our Lord and trust in His Word instead of following the "many" who are headed for destruction.

SealedEternal

 

[HuntingMan]

Matthew 5:32but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

The verse has two separate points.

The verse is to be taken as it was given, ONE coherant and consistant thought. Not broken into pieces like you seem to want to do.
The exception applies to the WHOLE statement, not just one part.
There is condition in that statement that, if applicable, alters the fact of whether sin is committed upon remarriage or not.

“Except for fornication” applies both to the putting away and marrying another

Therefore when you read the first part in context what it is saying is that everyone under the Old Covenant who divorced apart from the fornication provision of Deuteronomy 24, and then remarried, was actually engaging in an adulterous affair and making their wife adulteresses as well, because the original marriage covenant was still valid despite the divorce.

We all already know what is being discussed in Matt 19, there is no need for constant repetition on your part on that matter.

We have already know taht they are discussing Deut 24.
We also know that Jesus is not correcting any false view of Deut 24 by saying it was for fornication because we have already proven thaat that is the case.

Jesus was asked about divorce 'for EVERY cause', just as Moses had permitted and then regulated in Deut 24.
Jesus shows them that the divorce Moses had suffered in the desert as they had been doing for no just cause was not what God planned marriage to be and ONLY in a case now where she was in breach of covenant would divorce be tolerated.

 

[HuntingMan]

Also, we can avoid all of the Mosaic confusion if we just read Jesus' statement to those of us in the New Covenant:

Luke 16:18"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

Sorry friend, but Matthew 19 was written to the very same people that heard all of the other teachings you present from Mark and Luke..those under this NEW covenant !
Jew or gentile there was no need to keep betrothal teachings from anyone because the Romans who occupied Israel at that time ALSO used betrothal.
http://www.assembly-ministries.org/page56.html
There was no need to be so secretive about betrothal customs as some of you assert. The gentiles were quite capable of understanding and the same rule shoud have applied to their promised in marriage and then backing out if what you believe is true.
Why rob the gentiles of such a crucial teaching? That would make NO sense whatsoever.

Mark 10 and Matt 19 record the exact same event so who is it thatyou believe altered scripture there?
Matthew with his 'addition' of 'for every cause' and 'except for fornication'
Or Mark for removing those statements?

 

[HuntingMan]

Matthew 7:13-23"ENTER THROUGH THE NARROW GATE; for the gate is WIDE and the way is BROAD that leads to DESTRUCTION, and there are MANY who enter through it."For the gate is SMALL and the way is NARROW that leads to LIFE, and there are FEW who find it."BEWARE of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves."You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit."A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."So then, you will know them by their fruits."NOT EVERYONE WHO SAYS TO ME, 'LORD, LORD,' WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven will enter."Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

According to Jesus, the fact that everyone agrees with you is a sign that you're on the wrong path. He says it is the few who come to know Him, while most professing Christians do not. That is why we are warned repeatedly not to be deceived by the precepts of men, but to make Him our Lord and trust in His Word instead of following the "many" who are headed for destruction.

SealedEternal

So YOU believe that anyone who disagrees with YOUR interpretation is on the path to hell and not a christian?

 

[SealedEternal]

Yes, I know that the church is not as unloving or unforgiving as many would have them be. The funny thing about that is, if the church were indeed as judgemental as its individual members, not even they would be allowed to attend.

Leading people to Christ and exhorting them to repent of their sin is not "unloving" or "unforgiving." It is the most loving thing a person can do. It is encouraging people to continue to rebel against God and practice lawlessness that is hateful, because this leads them to their own destruction.

The good that has come out of reading all this negativity and the hateful attitudes of those who would put limits on God's Kingdom that He never intended...

I'm sorry but you are directly contradicting what He said:

Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

I Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

God specifically warned us all not to be deceived and to believe exactly what you are promoting.

I had no idea this horrible, hateful, judgemental attitude still existed among Christians, but I pray their hearts would be touched by the Holy Spirit so they might realize we are commanded to love another and not judge.

If a person has had their hearts regenerated by God's Spirit and born of Him, they will not practice lawlessness or encourage others to do so. It is not "judgmental" or "hateful" to exhort others to make Jesus Christ their Lord. This is how people can be saved. There is nothing loving whatsoever about encouraging people to reject Him as their Lord and to live as children of the devil. These people will suffer eternal consequences for following such advice.

SealedEternal

 

[HuntingMan]

Jesus says that a man who marries someone who is divorced from a husband is committing adultery. Clearly He is saying that the divorce doesn't end the original covenant, otherwise it couldn't be adultery to marry her.

Wrong.
The Jews had been divorcing for quite a few centuries at that point for no just cause at all and no actual guilt had been assigned this action.
Jesus is showing them under THIS covenant that when they do divorce as they had been that its not a free ride now. They arent guiltless as they believed. There is adultery committed against that former spouse when they divorce 'for every cause' (no just cause) and remarry.

Again, you are simply picking apart verses at this point to escape the context of the whole

 

[SealedEternal]

So YOU believe that anyone who disagrees with YOUR interpretation is on the path to hell and not a christian?

No, I believe that anyone who rejects Jesus Christ as the Lord of their lives is not His child and has no inheritance in His Kingdom. That means that if He says "Everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery" they won't do so, and if they have they will stop the adulterous relationship. If one is comfortable living in rebellion to His commandments, then yes I think scripture is clear that they are children of the devil and will spend eternity with their father in flames.

 

[HuntingMan]

I'm sorry but you are directly contradicting what He said:

Luke 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

contradiction is precisely what 'exceptions' do, friend, so Jesus 'contradicted' Himself technically by offering any exception. That simply how EXCEPTions work The are in disagreement with the general rule

ex·cep·tion (ĭk-sĕp'shən)

One that is excepted, especially a case that does not conform to a rule or generalization.

Such as we see here

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
(Mat 19:9)

 

[SealedEternal]

You would limit Christ's salvation to those you deem worthy and I am certain in my heart that He is not that limited. Justification for judging others is a waste of time and mockery of our place in the priesthood. It is nothing but hypocrisy.

Not at all. It is Him who says that everyone who divorces and remarries is committing adultery and that adulterers cannot inherit His Kingdom. Those are His words not mine. I'm only a messenger trying to warn people before it's too late to repent and come to Him.

SealedEternal

 

[HuntingMan]

If one is comfortable living in rebellion to His commandments, then yes I think scripture is clear that they are children of the devil and will spend eternity with their father in flames.

So, heres the situation.
Im on my third marriage, having put away two wives, not merely for adultery, but only after it became apparent they had no intention of ever quitting. The second wife moving in with her boyfriend during a separation and demanding that I file divorce.

I will NEVER leave my current wife, barring her own turn to harlotry, so am I a christian or not, in your opinion, and am I going to hell, in your opinion?
Just want to clarify where I stand in your viewpoint here

 

[HuntingMan]

Not at all. It is Him who says that everyone who divorces and remarries is committing adultery and that adulterers cannot inherit His Kingdom. Those are His words not mine. I'm only a messenger trying to warn people before it's too late to repent and come to Him.

SealedEternal

Actually, thats sealedeternals partial quoting of the scriptures instead of presenting the facts from the whole whereby exception is given that alters the entire scenario.

 

[HuntingMan]

Wrong.
The Jews had been divorcing for quite a few centuries at that point for no just cause at all and no actual guilt had been assigned this action.
Jesus is showing them under THIS covenant that when they do divorce as they had been that its not a free ride now. They arent guiltless as they believed. There is adultery committed against that former spouse when they divorce 'for every cause' (no just cause) and remarry.

Again, you are simply picking apart verses at this point to escape the context of the whole

Oddly enough, while we're on this point, in looking at Jesus exception in Matthew 5, its quite peculiar that we see the very SAME idea in that very chapter where Jesus says if they even look at a woman with lust they are committing adultery already.
This is another area where the Jews didnt believe that they were actually 'sinning' since it wasnt an outward act of adultery.
Jesus assigned the sin of adultery to these thoughts, even tho the act wasnt committed, and even tho the Jews formerly believed themselves guiltless in the matter

 

[SealedEternal]

Actually, thats sealedeternals partial quoting of the scriptures instead of presenting the facts from the whole whereby exception is given that alters the entire scenario.

Luke 16:15-18 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God. "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail. "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

I Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Is that enough context for you? I can quote the whole chapters if you want. Luke 16:18 specifically says that there are no exceptions. The only "exception" you have is by taking Jesus' statements in Matthew regarding the Old Covenant out of context and applying it to the New Covenant, and ignoring that it was for premarital fornication and claiming it applies to just about anything.

Regardless of Matthew says, Luke and Mark must also be true or the Bible is worthless. Your interpretation of Matthew however makes Mark and Luke's Gospels false, so you cannot possibly be interpreting it correctly.

SealedEternal

 

[sentipente]

Why do we continue to give the impression that this portion of Jesus' discourse could be titled, "Conditions under which humans can legitimately violate my institution of marriage?" The fact is that Jesus was discussing adultery, not divorce. He was saying that any man who divorced his wife (today that that would apply to either spouse) is reponsible for any adultery the one that is put away my commit. That is a rather revolutionary statement but we tend to ignore it. The only condition under which you would not be held responsible for the adultery committed by the spouse you put away is if adultery was the reason why you put him/her away. That is all Jesus was saying. Somehow Christians have conspired to make Jesus contradict Himself. With friends like these . . .

 

[SealedEternal]

The only condition under which you would not be held responsible for the adultery committed by the spouse you put away is if adultery was the reason why you put him/her away. That is all Jesus was saying.

There is no verse anywhere in the Bible that says it is lawful to divorce for adultery. What you're probably referring to is when Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about he Law of Moses he mentioned the premarital fornication clause in Deuteronomy 24. You have to read those verses carefully and look at the context, and then read Deuteronomy 24 to understand the exception He was referring to.

SealedEternal

 

[HuntingMan]

Is that enough context for you?

Actually, no, its not because you keep posting anything you can EXCEPT that which shows that there is STILL condition in the matter.
Ive seen a LOT of people pushing error in my 22 year walk and I know that they always want to dismiss details here and there.

Everything you presented is to be taken alongside 'EXCEPT for fornciation"

I can quote the whole chapters if you want.

Do you think it will matter, David? Has it before?
How does this usually end up?

Luke 16:18 specifically says that there are no exceptions.

Im sorry, WHERE again does Luke say "THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS! "???


Mark also doesnt say "for EVERY cause" are we to assume that wasnt said either?

The only "exception" you have is by taking Jesus' statements in Matthew regarding the Old Covenant out of context and applying it to the New Covenant, and ignoring that it was for premarital fornication and claiming it applies to just about anything.

Sorry, but for your thoughts to work Deut 24:1-4 MUST be about sexual sins which we have proven quite adequately that they cannot be.
If Deut 24:1-4 isnt about sexual sins, and its not, then you have no foundation because the whole context of Matt 19 is altered.
and THAT, dear friend, is why you will not accept the facts about Deut 24.
your entire doctrine crumbles if Deut isnt about sexual sins
Deuteronomy 24:1-4 cannot be about sexual sin.

Regardless of Matthew says, Luke and Mark must also be true or the Bible is worthless. Your interpretation of Matthew however makes Mark and Luke's Gospels false, so you cannot possibly be interpreting it correctly.

SealedEternal

Sorry, but as I said before mark doesnt contain 'for every cause' either. So was it Mark or Matthew who was lying about the details there?

Neither were.
We take ALL of the relevant information together.
Which means that even tho Mark didnt record 'for every cause' in chapter 10, we know factually that it was stated because Matthew DID record it

easy stuff

 

[sentipente]

There is no verse anywhere in the Bible that says it is lawful to divorce for adultery. What you're probably referring to is

Where did I say there was?

 

[SealedEternal]

Where did I say there was?

In your quote that I posted:

The only condition under which you would not be held responsible for the adultery committed by the spouse you put away is if adultery was the reason why you put him/her away. That is all Jesus was saying.