Marriage, Divorce, & Remarriage

[porterross]

I don't think so. It is our sinful nature that does that, but by the grace and mercy of God, all our sins are forgotten.

If you were walking with God when you married and your marriage survives, we are all happy for your blessing, but not everyone has had the same experiences or journey and you are wrong to judge others by your measure, which is what you are doing.

God keeps no record of our wrongs, no matter what you want people to believe. No one should live the rest of their lives in shame for being in this world and subject to the ills of it. To believe they should, is to make a mockery of Christ's sacrifice.

Christ fulfilled the law so we could all be set free in Him. That's the beauty of it, but I suppose such unconditional, unearned love is inconceivable to those bent on legalism. Did the attitudes and errors of the Pharisees teach you nothing?

 

[lmnop9876]

This thread has been closed by staff for review until further notice.
​

 

[Melethiel]

Thread Reopened.

Please refrain from any comments focused at a person instead of the topic. Posting personal and/or private information about others is NOT relevant to the topic, is considered harassment, and will be deleted.

 

[HuntingMan]

Thanks Melethiel
I was worried that our bad behavior caused Shermans thread to be locked.
we'll keep the personal comments out of this from this point forward

 

[HuntingMan]

Sherman, I am very interested in your take on what I posted earlier.

 

[SealedEternal]

I don't think so. It is our sinful nature that does that, but by the grace and mercy of God, all our sins are forgotten.

If you were walking with God when you married and your marriage survives, we are all happy for your blessing, but not everyone has had the same experiences or journey and you are wrong to judge others by your measure, which is what you are doing.

God keeps no record of our wrongs, no matter what you want people to believe. No one should live the rest of their lives in shame for being in this world and subject to the ills of it. To believe they should, is to make a mockery of Christ's sacrifice.

Christ fulfilled the law so we could all be set free in Him. That's the beauty of it, but I suppose such unconditional, unearned love is inconceivable to those bent on legalism. Did the attitudes and errors of the Pharisees teach you nothing?

Jesus comes into our wicked hearts to regenerate them and free us from our sinful nature. He did not come to give us a license to sin all the more. Scripture states that those who practice lawlessness and do not keep His commandments are children of the devil and have not yet come to know Him:

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?


Hebrews 10:14-17 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

1 John 3:7-10 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

1 John 2:3-6 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, IS A LIAR, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

To relate this to the issue of marriage and divorce, Jesus said that "everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery"(Luke 16:18). Therefore those who have come to know Him and been born of Him will not engage in what He defines as an illicit sexual relationship with someone who is not his or her spouse.

Jesus said "You will know them by their fruits." Therefore a child of God will bear the fruits of righteousness because his Spirit has renewed their hearts and made them a new creation, while those who still practice lawlessness have not been born of God and are children of the devil, and will spend eternity with their father in flames. It is critical therefore for those of us who have been born of Him to warn those who have not that they need to repent and come to Christ before it's too late. To do so is not judging people, it is showing love and compassion for them.

SealedEternal

 

[Servant222]

First, Thank you Moderators!

A key point here has been: how far does God's grace extend? I agree with Porterross's comment that it is likely far greater than we give God credit for, and therefore we need to be very careful when we take it upon ourselves to define the limits of that grace through our own legalistic interpretation of the Word.

Surely God's love is ultimately there to make us happier, to relieve suffering, and to grant us peace. This being the case, is it not more realistic to interpret scripture as Sherman has done and to conclude that God's grace covers those who have had to suffer through divorce, and that, if sin was involved in that divorce, that the forgiveness of Jesus Christ extends to all who repent and ask Jesus to guide them as they move forward in a new life.

 

[HuntingMan]

Jesus comes into our wicked hearts to regenerate them and free us from our sinful nature. He did not come to give us a license to sin all the more. Scripture states that those who practice lawlessness and do not keep His commandments are children of the devil and have not yet come to know Him:

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?


Hebrews 10:14-17 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

1 John 3:7-10 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 5:18We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

1 John 2:3-6 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, IS A LIAR, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

To relate this to the issue of marriage and divorce, Jesus said that "everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery"(Luke 16:18).

And this is the problem.
You keep saying that everyone who commits remarries commits adultery, but firstly Jesus gave exception whereby in some cases no adultery would be committed.

It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
(Mat 5:31-32 KJV)

And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
(Mat 19:9)



And secondly the Present Indicative form of 'committeth adultery' is the LEAST likely in the present form of the greek to be an ongoing matter.
“Committeth adultery” The Present Indicative deception

 

[SealedEternal]

Legalism as practiced by the Pharisees was to try to create loopholes in God's Law in order to practice the very things He condemns. I believe that so-called "Christians" often do the same by trying to take certain verses out of context while denying others in order to create loopholes that aren't there.

Scripture says repeatedly that marriage is a lifelong covenant joined by God that can only be ended by death, and that any remarriage after divorce is therefore an adulterous affair and not a marriage at all. There is no way to interpret those statements to mean anything other than what they say, so many try to run to other scriptures and take them out of context to suggest that there is a contradiction, and then claim they can therefore ignore all of the clear verses saying that God does not permit divorce and remarriage. What they are really suggesting is that scripture is inconsistent and unreliable.

It is not legalistic to take God at His Word, to do what He says, and to encourage others to do the same. In fact, scripture says that these are the fruits that show that one is a child of God.

SealedEternal

 

[SealedEternal]

And this is the problem.
You keep saying that everyone who commits remarries commits adultery, but firstly Jesus gave exception whereby in some cases no adultery would be committed.

In the context of the Old Covenant yes, but I am referring to the New Covenant. Also the Old Covenant exception was for fornication and not adultery so it doesn't apply to "divorce" as we know it anyway. Divorce of fully married couples has never been permitted under either covenant.

SealedEternal

 

[Servant222]

So I've asked this before, SealedEternal, and would request an answer:

Do you believe:

1. that anyone who is married to a divorced person is COMMITTING ADULTERY.

2. that if they continue together as man and wife, they are PROVING UNREPETENTENCE, and therefore are NOT Christians, and have no access to the grace of Jesus Christ, and are therefore CONDEMNED TO HELL.

3. that such a person can ONLY hope to be saved by separating from their spouse, even if that means ripping a family apart, and living single and celibate for the rest of their life.

So SealedEternal- give us all here a straight YES or NO answer regarding whether this is what you believe.

Realize, of course, that if you say "Yes", and are right, then literally hundreds of millions of people who think they are Christians are actually unbelievers condemned to hell.

I eagerly await your answer. Again, just a simple "Yes" or "No" will do.

 

[HuntingMan]

Legalism as practiced by the Pharisees was to try to create loopholes in God's Law in order to practice the very things He condemns. I believe that so-called "Christians" often do the same by trying to take certain verses out of context while denying others in order to create loopholes that aren't there.

Actually its quite in context.
We know factually that they were speaking about 'for every cause' divorce, just as He was asked about in matt 19.
This is in reference to the allowance by Moses in the desert for them to casually toss out their wives (as we see evidence for in the restrictions of the priests in Lev 21 who were not permitted to take a woman put away from her husband).
In Deut 24:1-4 Moses tried to regulate this act by placing resctriction on it when he gave his speeches (which are recorded for us as the book of Deut) to this younger generation before they entered into the promise land.

Jesus was asked about it by the pharisees who understood the tolerance quite well, but had twisted it into a 'commandment' because their hardhearts refused to understand that Moses wasnt commanding them, and Deut 24 :1-4 was not given as a permission, but was altogether to their discredit because it was an attempt to make them stop doing the evil they were committing in that they would cast out this wife for any reason they felt for the most part, and most of the time it was to take someone they wanted more.
Moses had suffered this in the wilderness and then tried to get control over it by giving regulation to it in Deut 24 there.

That is the actual context of the discussion...frivolous divorce.
Jesus shows that He will not longer tolerate this behavoir and shows them that ONLY for a legitimate breach can they divorce her.

Scripture says repeatedly that marriage is a lifelong covenant joined by God that can only be ended by death,

Then Moses played a part in sending people to hell then by allowing them to divorce, telling them how to divorce, then allowing them to remarry?

and that any remarriage after divorce is therefore an adulterous affair and not a marriage at all

Actually this is false.
Jesus Himself in the passages given says 'and marry another' showing quite conclusively that it IS a marriage.
And we know that adultery is not always committed based on His exception.
And as I stated before, the present indicative form of the word is the LEAST likely to be an ongoing issue.

What they are really suggesting is that scripture is inconsistent and unreliable.

No, we simply harmonize ALL of the facts as logically and consistantly as we can.

 

[HuntingMan]

In the context of the Old Covenant yes, but I am referring to the New Covenant. Also the Old Covenant exception was for fornication and not adultery so it doesn't apply to "divorce" as we know it anyway. Divorce of fully married couples has never been permitted under either covenant.

SealedEternal

Sure it applies to divorce today
Jesus was asked about what Moses had suffered them to do and He shows why that will no longer be tolerated because of how God created marriage and then shows that ONLY for a legitimate breach of covenant can she be put away now.

Edit.
Also, yes, this putting away that Moses was regulating in Deut 24 there are those that were taking place well after consummation and even many years into marriage.
These men found someone they liked better and so would cast out their current wife to take another, just like we see today.
Moses created the bill of divorce for at least two reasons.
-To help this man understand how serious what he was about to do was
-To give this woman cast out for no just cause written proof of that which means that the husband now has to return her dowry as well and her remarrying is absolutely not an issue since it is proven that she has not simply run out on her husband.

With his saying that once remarried this woman could never be the first husbands again, Moses shows us that this was probably just as common to toss her out, take another, and then at some later point bring her back into the home.
Since in that culture the woman had few choices but to marry again, Moses regulation that she could never return once remarried made this man understand just how permanent this was going to be from now on. There would be no bringing her back later in hopes of not having to return her dowry.

 

[SealedEternal]

So I've asked this before, SealedEternal, and would request an answer:

Do you believe:

1. that anyone who is married to a divorced person is COMMITTING ADULTERY.

Don't take my word for it:

Matthew 5:32 "...and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

2. that if they continue together as man and wife, they are PROVING UNREPETENTENCE, and therefore are NOT Christians, and have no access to the grace of Jesus Christ, and are therefore CONDEMNED TO HELL.

Everyone has access to the grace of Jesus Christ, but first one has to soften their hearts and allow Him to regenerate their hearts by trusting in Him and walking by His Spirit. You will know by your fruits if you have come to know Him and become His child. If one still hardens their hearts to His commandments and practices what he condemns, then they are demonstrating the fruits of an unregenerate heart, and that they have not yet come to know Him.

3. that such a person can ONLY hope to be saved by separating from their spouse, even if that means ripping a family apart, and living single and celibate for the rest of their life.

He has said that everyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery. His word also says that adulterers cannot inherit His Kingdom. Therefore one must make Him their Lord, repent of their adulterous affair, and stop committing the sin before they can become His child.

His Word also says that those who continue to practice lawlessness rather than righteousness and do not keep His commandments are children of the devil, have not come to know Him, and will therefore not inherit His Kingdom. In other words, our outward fruits are a reflection of what is going on within our hearts. If we still have the old wicked rebellious heart we are children of the devil, while if our heart has been regenerated by God's Spirit we are a new creation in Him.

So SealedEternal- give us all here a straight YES or NO answer regarding whether this is what you believe.

Realize, of course, that if you say "Yes", and are right, then literally hundreds of millions of people who think they are Christians are actually unbelievers condemned to hell.

Jesus said that would be the case:

Matthew 7:21-23"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


1 John 2:3-6By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, IS A LIAR, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

God has warned the professing Christians throughout scripture not to be deceived and think that we can be His child while practicing sin:


I Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


1 John 3:7-10 Little children, MAKE SURE NO ONE DECEIVES YOU; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.


Ephesians 5:5-8 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light


God warns repeatedly that those who think they know Christ, better be bearing the fruit of the regenerate heart that has had God's Law written on it, or they are not His children and have no inheritance in His Kingdom. Jesus Himself said that only the "few" Christians would actually come to know Him, while the "many" never have despite the fact that they call Him Lord, Lord with their lips. They do not do the will of the Father because they are not His children. They are not His children because He is not their Lord.


SealedEternal

 

[HuntingMan]

Don't take my word for it:

Matthew 5:32 "...and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

We take that ONE piece of infomation, brother, and work it in together with all the other details.
Jesus said there 'saving for a cause of fornication' whereby what you posted there would not be the case.
If she has adulterated herself in her marriage, then any subsequent marriage afterward isnt adultery because the first marriage was ended justly.

All you are doing now is trying to nitpick bits and pieces of verses, taking parts of them out of the context they were given in, in hopes of salvaging your doctrine.

If we all do as youre doing there, we can create all sorts of erroneous teachings by piecemealing together parts of scripture that seem to say what we want them to.

It doesnt work like that, Im afraid.
We examine ALL of the relevant data as a whole to see how each individual piece fits.

your peice there is clearly not the case when its presented in the context it is given and the former spouse was put away for harlotry.

 

[HuntingMan]

Matthew 7:21-23"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


1 John 2:3-6By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, IS A LIAR, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

God has warned the professing Christians throughout scripture not to be deceived and think that we can be His child while practicing sin:


I Corinthians 6:9-10 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


1 John 3:7-10 Little children, MAKE SURE NO ONE DECEIVES YOU; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.


Ephesians 5:5-8 For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light


God warns repeatedly that those who think they know Christ, better be bearing the fruit of the regenerate heart that has had God's Law written on it, or they are not His children and have no inheritance in His Kingdom. Jesus Himself said that only the "few" Christians would actually come to know Him, while the "many" never have despite the fact that they call Him Lord, Lord with their lips. They do not do the will of the Father because they are not His children. They are not His children because He is not their Lord.


SealedEternal

Wow.
Im not sure, but if Im understanding you right, are you saying that all remarried christians are not real christians at all and are going to hell ?

 

[porterross]

Wow.
Im not sure, but if Im understanding you right, are you saying that all remarried christians are not real christians at all and are going to hell ?

That's exactly what those in that camp convey. It's deplorable and flies in the face of everything Christ taught.

 

[SealedEternal]

We take that ONE piece of infomation, brother, and work it in together with all the other details.
Jesus said there 'saving for a cause of fornication' whereby what you posted there would not be the case.

Matthew 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

The verse has two separate points. The first point was that everyone who remarried after a divorce not predicated on a wife committing fornication would not be a marriage at all, but rather an adulterous affair. This is of course in the context of the Old Covenant Law since the beginning of the statement was quoting Deuteronomy 24.

Matthew 5:31 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE';

Therefore when you read the first part in context what it is saying is that everyone under the Old Covenant who divorced apart from the fornication provision of Deuteronomy 24, and then remarried, was actually engaging in an adulterous affair and making their wife adulteresses as well, because the original marriage covenant was still valid despite the divorce.

It is important to notice that the innocent woman who had not committed fornication is made to commit adultery by her husband divorcing her unjustly. That is pretty harsh, but illustrates that God was not kidding when He said that marriage is for life and remarriage is adultery. If anyone would be justified in remarrying it would be her.

Then the second part says "Whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery" which I agree with you probably only applied to the woman who had been divorced illegally. She is made to commit adultery by her treacherous husband, and the other man who takes her as his wife is also made to become an adulterer by joining to her.

The fornication provision is irrelevent to those not under the Old Covenant, so it is not pertinent to a New Covenant discussion. Also, when people here speak of "divorce" they aren't referring to breaking off a marriage covenant because a woman was discovered to have committed fornication, which is what the Law spoke of and what Jesus said was the exception. People take this exception out of context and apply it to their own situations where it doesn't apply, and then claim they are following God's Word and that He is their Lord. This provision has no application in the New Covenant, and never applied to fully married people in either covenant.

Also, we can avoid all of the Mosaic confusion if we just read Jesus' statement to those of us in the New Covenant:

Luke 16:18"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

Jesus says that a man who marries someone who is divorced from a husband is committing adultery. Clearly He is saying that the divorce doesn't end the original covenant, otherwise it couldn't be adultery to marry her. Scripture says over and over again that marriage is a lifelong covenant joined by God that we cannot separate, and that if we attempt to and then remarry we are only engaging in adultery. Some just can't accept His words.

SealedEternal

 

[SealedEternal]

Wow.
Im not sure, but if Im understanding you right, are you saying that all remarried christians are not real christians at all and are going to hell ?

Those aren't my words, they are God's. If you have a problem with them you'll have to take it up with Him.

SealedEternal

 

[Servant222]

That's exactly what those in that camp convey. It's deplorable and flies in the face of everything Christ taught.

This is one person's opinion based on his interpretation of scripture, which he zeolously believes to be true.

But what do the vast majority of Church pastors and other leaders believe? Obviously, not the same thing, otherwise they wouldn't be performing second marriages for the tens of millions of people every year who would be affected by this situation.